Have you given up?

[almostgivenup]

Firstly I'd like to say that I do not want this thread to start up anyfights or arguments etc as often happens here. It is merely to see if there are others like me who have got to the point and decided enough is enough and tolive your life again? I am not looking for suggestions, sympathy or critcism, just to see if others feel the same.

I finished training over 3 years ago and having gone down many different avenues in the hope of finding that one position, have not been successful.

I'm sure there probably were more routes I could have pursued, but sadly Ihave bills to pay and could not have afforded to live had I gone down the route of instructing, working for free or working at an airport etc. I'm slowly realising that I was duped like many others into chasing a dream and I have topay the price, both financially and psychologically. It has left me depressedand demoralised, but I am just trying to carry on with my life and accept whathas happened.

I will always have sadness and regret that it has not turned out how I had hoped, however I've realised that you cannot buy a dream. I love flying, and hope to carry on doing so for pleasure, but to anyone else out there who has dreamt of being a pilot, think very carefully before you do. It has nearly cost me a marriage, and much much more.

[Antonio Montana]

Sorry to hear that, but not e drone is cut out for a career in aviation.
I have seen people give in after the PPL, the CPL, IR and even line training on a jet aircraft.
All I can say is that you must put it down to experience and get on with life.
After all in 100 years no one will know.

[Anunaki]

I feel your pain, and I understand how frustrating it might be after such a long wait,but hope is a very dangerous thing to lose.
I have been job hunting for a year, and just got a job as cabin crew,It won't cover all of my bills but I had to do something.I was turned down for all the jobs I've applied to outside aviation due to the fact I have a pilot licence so even with a university degree, all I could get was into BA's mixed fleet,since I can't afford a FI rating,couldn't get into Bush flying(not as easy as people think)and I refuse to P2F...
So, hang in there and whatever you decide I hope it works out!

I am sorry to hear about your plea, just thought in give you a thumbs up and a message of support,you aren't alone.:ok:

[almostgivenup]

Thanks for your reply - you're very kind. Had it not been for financial obligations, I would have done anything to get into the flight deck. Sadly the costs of training and life mean that if I did that, I'd probably end up in court for debt avoidance! :{

As it stands now, I'm in a fairly well paid job that is dull, but I value having a home life, weekends and evenings etc. That's not to say I wouldn't have managed working strange hours, but I guess you have to take the good from the bad, and that is part of the good.

It's a catch 22 though for anyone out of training/aviation for any significant period of time, the longer you go on, the harder it is. Why would an Airline want to employ someone who is out of the game, in place of a freshly qualified 21 yr old with no obligations and a healthy bank balance, of which there still seems to be plenty. :confused:

A woman I work with told me her son wanted to be a pilot and he was 12 years old, she asked if I had any advice. I just told her, make sure he works hard at school, carries on with the air cadets, join the University air squadron and then join the RAF if he can. If not, study medicine. :)

[Jimbonautics]

Hi guys!
I'm just in the same situation as you are.
I finished my frozen ATPL in 2008, right at the beginning of all this crisis.
I'm searching for a job since then.
Fortunatly i got a job in Aviation who pays my bills every month and can keep my licences updated.
But I know exactly how you feel. P2F was never an option for me neither... but you know. With so many pilots in Europe getting laid off, this will not be easy as a newcomer to get his job.

A lot of friends went to Indonesia to fly for Lion Air. P2F programs.
But they are flying. I'm not saying this is the right way.
Everyone has his own way.
If ou give up, You will not be the first nor the last do follow another way.

Maybe you will find a happier way to live and another job who makes you even happier.

If you are waiting for a Job as a Pilot in Europe, man this will be hard.
NOt impossible, but hard.

I'm gona enter in my fifth year searching for a job. But i have to admit, i getting tired.

If you ask me if I already thaught about giving up...Yes of course, a lot of times. I getting tired of not knowing wich way i gonna go. If this job will happen for me or not.
And my girlfriend is getting tired too.

If you feel like giving up an try something else. Why not?!
I know, the flying education costs a lot... but you have just one life.
and time's not stopping.

It's a quite hard decision to make. But you will not be the first nor the last to pass trough it.

For me, as long as i can keep myself motivated and pay the licences.
And my girlfriend don't leave my for that...I gonna keep on trying.
But i don't know for how long.

A dream may come true. But afterwards it can pass to a nightmare...or not.

Up to you buddy! and good luck:ok:

[SloppyJoe]

If you get turned down for jobs as you had a pilots license, why oh why would you keep telling employers about it? Make something up to cover what you were doing for a year or two.

[Anunaki]

Easier saying than doing it Sloppyjoe...try to lie about it when you need to provide references for background checks for example....:hmm:

[almostgivenup]

I got around the big black hole on my CV as I was working part time, and downplayed the significance of what I was doing, just said I doing the training in my spare time etc. It is a bit of a dilemma though as some employers do wonder....

[SV_741_India_Bravo]

almostgivenup, I dont know your specifics, but when it comes to paying bills there are some specific jobs that dont require particular qualifications. I dont know much about your area, but I got work in the digital media industry purely based on the fact that I can speak and write English well. May I suggest look for something in IT, if you are into it. That should take care of the bills for a while. When you do get a place that can take care of the bills, diversify. See if you can get support for a degree or certificate, in aviation or outside of it.

At the same time, always keep in touch with aviation, because you may think you will remember your stuff, but a month later - poof - its all gone. If possible, check out some of the (free) online courses available through AOPA or on the FAAST website.

My first job in aviation came from a very unexpected source. I didnt even apply to that place, neither did they announce any vacancies. An online aviation education project (free) that I set up just to keep myself in touch with aviation, and to educate the visitors to my site caught the eye of my new employer. They called me in and offered me a spot the same day.

At the end of it all, my experience did teach me one thing - for those of us fortunate enough to have the aviation bug, trust me, we will not be satisfied working anywhere else. You may think I'm a fool saying that, but I used to think that about all the people who told me this, until I experienced it myself. Aviation is what keeps us alive, and if it werent for my friends and acquantaince - people i barely know - who kept pushing me, I would have quit a long time ago.

Dont loose hope. Be thankful for what you have, keep a positive attitude, and look for options. Google is your friend, use it.

All the best!

[Cabair351]

Well said SV 741.
Couldnt agree more.

[Bealzebub]

I am sure there are a great many people who have given up for one reason or another. This is a career path that is littered with bodies. I have been saying this (on these forums) for the last 14 years, and so have a great many others. There is nothing clever about the statement, it is a simple, obvious, and consistent observation.

Whilst I understand your position, one thing I am a little surprised by, is the suggestion that you "were duped." By whom?

For years and years and years, decades, and as long as this website has been in existence, and much longer, people have been warning of the risks inherent with relying on flight training as a succesful career path. Usually the only "duping" is entirely self inflicted. The resources are readily available to anybody who wants to avail themselves of them. This industry (like many industries) is a giant pyramid. Everybody is looking at the pinnacle but few are likely to get there. Even the "I am prepared to do that" jobs, are at a level that is well out of reach for many.

It is rather like saying you need an actors equity card to be a succesful actor. Having one may be a necessity, but it does absolutely nothing to ensure the desired result. Likewise with flight training. Every succesful placement requires the license, but the licence does nothing to ensure a successful placement. Something that seems woefully lost on a huge segment of the relevant populace.

Even at the pinnacle of this pyramid, there are placements that range from good, to not enough to survive on. Having a fall back plan, is therefore not only essential, it is in itself inadequate. Most people should have a number of fall back positions, because they quite simply, will need them!

Many of the requirements for obtaining a professional pilots licence have become much easier over the last decade. However the requirements for a succesful career placement have become much more difficult. It therefore doesn't take much imagination to understand that there is now a massive oversupply of hopeful wannabes, many of whom on sheer weight of numbers (ignoring everything else,) stand very little chance of success. In other words the giant pyramid has got much, much bigger, but the pinnacle of it is simply higher up, and further away.

People seem to labour under an illusion that it is the obligation of flight training organisations to dissuade wanabees, and paint a gloomy picture. That is simply ludicrous and naive. The survival of any business depends on profit, and that profit will only come by selling a product. You can sell flight training. You can sell a Ferrari. You cannot sell a dream, because it has no tangibility. You hope that the potential buyer will use that excuse or reason for buying your product if nothing else will.

If you do give up, then don't feel too bad about it. People make worse mistakes in life and recover. That said, there are jobs out there, and people are still getting them. I have seen a lot of good top tier vacancies filled in the last 18 months by people who did research carefully and got lucky. I have also seen vacancies filled at all of the levels from the pinnacle down through the layers. These vacancies were filled by people who obviously didn't give up. who worked hard, and also got lucky.

The pyramid may be very large these days, but it has always been a pyramid with very slippery sides.

[Shrimps]

I'm in a similar situation to the OP - almost 5 years since graduation with a CPL due for renewal and very little to show for it.

I'm not blaming anyone for my situation - at the end of the day it was a risk I took when the times were good; it was only the week before my IR exam that things took a turn for the worse when airlines that would normally be looking to take on cadets didn't; not long afterwards both BA and BE stopped taking on through their cadet schemes and EZ got into bed with CTC.

I didn't do too badly for interviews, and attended selection for Luxair and Tyrolean; both times dropping out at the psychometric stage (and both times being refused any feedback unless I returned in person). Ryanair was a bad day at the office with an utterly horrendous sim which was nothing like the experiences my successful peers related to me. Regardless, I have been doing a multitude of jobs to pay the bills and to get experience where I can. Regrettably in my case I don't have a degree to fall back on either, which is somewhat limiting my career potential for now, and because I don't wish to completely turn my back on aviation whilst my ratings are still valid I'm not yet looking too seriously at an alternative career.

I do consider at what point to just draw a line underneath it and accept that I gambled and lost and start looking elsewhere - I suspect that point is 18 months down the line when it comes to my next IR renewal in an aircraft as it is a heck of a financial commitment. Until that day I will retain a glimmer of hope!

[Da-20 monkey]

I had 30 hours dual instruction for the issue of a PPL before i was 16. I started an integrated course 2 years ago. Passed the ATPL theory, then was kicked out because the bank would not loan me upwards of 85.000 jurro's. Bad credit rating and all. Parents not rich enough.
Last jobs I had were dishwashing, working on the ramp on schiphol didn't really work out because I was unable to terminate my contract at a restaurant.

Now I'm 27 and I don't want to be a pilot anymore, even tough I still have a lot of passion for,and knowledge of, aviation. I am glad the bank wasn't going to give me all that money. I don't have huge loans to pay off like you guys because I didn't reach the stage of instrument and multi engine instruction and stuff. but it feels like I wasted a lot of time dreaming about a stupid boy's dream.

Next month I start a quite regular business administration course at college. I am not going to tell anyone that I have been involved in flight training, and you should not do either.
People do not want to hear your stories about failing to be a pilot. They will turn their back on you, especially woman.

Go to a financial advisor and see how you can manage to pay off your debts while learning a valuable skill that will give you a good job and live somewhere cheap. If you have degrees, don't tell HR people at a job interview that you have done flight training, make something up like travelling.

Don't compare yourself with people who got a job at some low-cost carrier with a pretty facebook picture of them sitting in a big cockpit.

Perhaps next september I will see if I can change my course to bachelor aeronautical engineering.

Portsharbourflyer: You are right. What I meant was the atpl theory might help me with the entry requirements.

Row with the paddle's you have:ok:

[portsharbourflyer]

"Perhaps next september I will see if I can change my course to bachelor aeronautical engineering, there are poosibilities to make ATPL theory count towards some of it's course subjects."

ATPL technical subjects are like primary school stuff compared to the technical content of a Aeronautical Engineering degree, ATPLs may count on some of those wooly noddy aviation management / sciences courses, but for a fully accredited engineering degree the ATPL tech content is no where near that needed for degree level study.

[felixflyer]

Unfortunately this industry has been well and truly screwed by the willingness of people to either pay to fly or to accept peanuts. There are just too many people willing to throw endless amounts of money at airlines and FTO's for the chance to get into the right hand seat of a jet. For some people a jet job is not what they are looking for. The problem is any job that might help get people into that uniform is inundated with applications from people just wanting to use it as a stepping stone into the airlines. That along with increasing costs means there is no money in instructing or GA.

Of course its not the fault of the FTO's, they are a business and do what they need to make money. Its not the fault of the airlines either, if they are getting thousands of CV's every week from people willing to sell their mother for a chance to get in the flightdeck then they are going to reduce T&C'c and bring in P2F schemes.

The only way I can see things changing is if the supply of people willing to pay for a job dries up. I think however that this is unlikely, the recession doesn't seem to have stopped it and there could be a big influx from asia in the coming years.

The job of pilot was always going to get more and more mundane, people nowadays expect to pay more to park their car at the airport than they do for the flight ticket, this can only lead one way im afraid. T&C's will continue to decrease as long as there are more pilots than jobs. Soon the role of FO will be part of the training process and we will see schools offering 0 to captain courses. The really sad thing is there will be a queue of people willing to pay for it.

[cowhorse]

Here's my 'unexperty' prediction: there will be a spike in acft accidents in the next two decades due to appalling training quality of pilot factories and lack of experienced pilots (from zero to hero, skipping some basic maths in between). The future captain will be either a guy who started flying A320 when he was 16, 'cos his parents owned one, or a guy, who was a fitness coach, saved some money, and paid for his job.
Another interesting thing to see will be the public reaction, when a first loco crashes (God forbid). And the reaction of the Irishman.

So I predict grim couple of decades, but then, the conditions could improve.

[de facto]

The reason why some people make it and some people fail is because some give up while the others dont.

[Piltdown Man]

Another interesting thing to see will be the public reaction, when a first loco crashes (God forbid). And the reaction of the Irishman.

Whilst I detest the vile Irishman who runs RYR, I don't think the first LoCo to stoof in will have a harp on its tail. The finished product of their training department is every bit as good as or better than European legacy carriers. Where they really stink as a company is not in flying but in other areas.

[felixflyer]

'The reason why some people make it and some people fail is because some give up while the others dont.'

You could also say:

The reason why some end up bankrupt or in mountains of debt with nothing to show for it is because some give up while the others dont.

[Bealzebub]

Here's my 'unexperty' prediction: there will be a spike in acft accidents in the next two decades due to appalling training quality of pilot factories and lack of experienced pilots (from zero to hero, skipping some basic maths in between). The future captain will be either a guy who started flying A320 when he was 16, 'cos his parents owned one, or a guy, who was a fitness coach, saved some money, and paid for his job. The truth is that the training courses that many of the major FTO's to cadet programmes provide, are far from "appalling" and far exceed what it is either available in the general marketplace, or what existed years ago. I have worked with the "product" of these programmes for some 15 years now. Those 250 hour cadets are todays 10,000 hour captains! They are neither poorly trained, nor are they inexperienced.

In order to make sensible predictions for the next two decades, you need to understand the evolution of the last two decades. A lot of people simply refuse to do that because it doesn't suit their own model. To get a foot in the door, you must first know where the door is! Airlines are buying their pilots from two sources (in varying degrees.) They are buying experience or they are buying trainees from sources they trust. Although the balance has changed over the last two decades, fundamentally this has always been the case.

Two decades ago, the only 250 hour commercial pilots in the UK, where from approved training schools. In the majority of cases those pilots were yesterdays cadets. Beyond that, a wannabe commercial pilot needed to amass over 700 hours for a basic commercial licence. That was only possible for the majority by working their way up through instructing, or the few general aviation opportunities that were available. Having the opportunity usually meant that the world didn't stop at the 700 hour point. yesterdays instructor/ GA pilot /CPL/IR holder would often go on to acquire the basic couple of thousand hours that provided an invitation to the big boys party! Whilst it provided a well worn path to the airlines, it wasn't a universal success. A couple of thousand hours instructing or GA flying provided experience, but it didn't always provide a good product for the airlines. The training background was often patchy, inconsistent and subject to rectification in remedial training later on.

When JAR resulted in the CPL experience level being reduced from 700 hours (other than approved schools) to 250 hours, it simply stripped a third of the "bulk hours" experience from new CPL/IR holders. This "aerial work" licence was now the basic requirement to instruct, or to do many of those GA stepping stone jobs that existed previously. The airlines didn't generally reduce their experience requirements, nor did they need to.

Recruitment continued to select the previous experience base. That being comprised of military service career changers, and experienced pilots in the market for new opportunities. The change came at the entry level. Growth came in this sector of the market from an evolution of the previous "approved schools." The established names and a few new entrants to this market, offered airlines a well trained cadet product, whereby the risk was shifted from the airline to the cadet themselves. Despite a long and succesful history in a small segment of the marketplace, these new programmes were initially viewed with some scepticism. Nevertheless, that scepticism proved largely unfounded, and these cadet programmes supplied an ever growing proportion of many airlines new pilot requirements.

The general economic downturn has simply masked much of this reality. Whilst certain sectors of the market have continued to grow, there has been widespread stagnation in a lot of it. Airlines (like most businesses) have sought to survive, by cutting costs wherever feasible. This has then been passed down to their suppliers, and is also reflected in the general T&C's on offer to new and current employees. Although it is still very patchy, when growth returns, the mask is lifted, the economic lessons are still a painful reminder, and the pre-recession new realities will return even more aggresively than where they left off.

The quaint notion that things will somehow revert back to where they were two decades ago, is simply nonsense. They can't because the fundamentals have changed. The mask that this current economic downturn provides, is a set of hoardings. If you find a crack and peek behind those hoardings, you will see investment and reorganisation going on at many of these large FTO's in preparation for the expansion that they intend to profit from.

Evolution is about the need to adapt in order to survive in a changing environment. The marketplace has evolved. The regulatory environment has evolved. The commercial priorities of the large industry players has evolved. Those that seek success in this business need to understand these realities and evolve themselves. Hiding under a rock and hoping it will all go away, isn't likely to be a succesful formula.

Speaking as somebody with no axe to grind and having been lucky enough to have forged a very good career from this industry, I would most definitely approach things from a different way 35 years later! I am flying with people who have adapted to these realities. They have embarked on good career paths. They recognise that whatever the realities, they are also very lucky.

[taxistaxing]

The quaint notion that things will somehow revert back to where they were two decades ago, is simply nonsense. They can't because the fundamentals have changed. The mask that this current economic downturn provides, is a set of hoardings. If you find a crack and peek behind those hoardings, you will see investment and reorganisation going on at many of these large FTO's in preparation for the expansion that they intend to profit from.


I don't doubt that, and I find this a very interesting discussion from the perspective of someone who is shortly to embark on CPL training at a modular school.

I suppose the hope for those of us who cannot go through the traditional 'integrated' route, for whatever reason, is that the upturn will give rise to additional opportunities for low hours pilots: whether these be opportunities to enter airlines directly as with the Ryanair and the CTC takeoff scheme; or just more and better opportunities for 'experience building' GA jobs of the type Bealzebub mentions.

At the moment for those who are not on integrated airline cadetships, it really does just seem to be Ryanair, instructing, or nothing and I can well imagine that life gets in the way and forces people to give up.

[119.35]

Taxistanding - your last paragraph unfortunately is all too true.

Bealzebub - What does a flexicrew cadet make in their first 8 month contract? I've heard its something like £1200 per month but wondered if this depends on the size of your loan? And how many 8 month flexicrew contracts can someone expect with potential 'winter breaks', before they stand a chance of getting a permanent contract? Apologies for the direct questions but the info doesn't seem to be very forthcoming on the CTC threads? Probably as both can very depending upon circumstances I guess? Thanks.

[Bealzebub]

Sorry, I don't know! The cadets who came to us cleared in the region of £2500 a month for their placement period, and are all now on full time permanent contracts. There are plenty of people who can give you better specific information in answer to your question. I am sure someone will be along shortly to do just that.

[de facto]

The reason why some end up bankrupt or in mountains of debt with nothing to show for it is because some give up while the others dont.

There are many ways to become qualified without taking a 80 000£ loan...
A friend of mine went the instructor way in the US ,worked there for a small C 402 company(sponsored) and when he ahd a good amount of hours and experience went back to the UK (not a uk national..but european) to work as a post man and studying at night for his ATPL.
He passed all exams (95% average) long distance in a year and got a job flying turbo props in the UK.
He had ZERO debt and got a commercial job!!

Brain,work and perseverance pays off at the end.

[driftdown]

Regretably I fall into the gave up category. Finished training a long time ago and although interviewed with BA, Aer Lingus and DHL things did not work out. Age was not on my side and I reached a point where, although I did not owe any money I was barely making enough to live let alone recover the lost financial ground of the self improver route.

I sat down one day and thought it all through and decided that I wanted my life back, to no longer be sitting in limbo wondering whether the networking was going to pay off, not being able to commit to trying to re-establish myself in my previous career and spending good money keeping licences etc valid.

Having evaluated all the options, which is what we pilots do, yes I am a pilot just not one that exercised the privileges of the Commercial ticket, I made the decision to commit to rebuilding my life and finances. I have been lucky, right place at the right time and took up some opportunities and now 12 years later just about paid off my mortgage have some money invested although not enough to retire on but in a lot better shape than I thought I would be.

To the OP, it is tough to be where you are right now, the dream, all the hard work, stressing through exams and checkrides for what? The way I see it is better to call it a day rather than bury yourself deeper in debt, it shows sound decision making and for that you have my respect.

[felixflyer]

de facto,

Many people have done their training without taking on loans, myself included so far. I am talking about training up to fATPL though and I presume this is what your friend did.

Once we start moving into paying tens of thousands for type ratings and integrated airline schemes plus having to fly for next to no pay for a period of time, the chances of this being viable decrease.

How long would it take to put enough aside for not only the fATPL but also any TR that may be required? If there is a period of working on very low income whilst line training then this would also need to be provided for.

What I am trying to say is not that it could not be done in the past without taking on debt but that it will become increasingly difficult in the future.

Either the supply of people both able and willing to finance the training themselves will dry up or it will continue. Supply and Demand will dictate how far it goes as is usually the case.

[Tacitus]

Spot on felixflyer. Personally i think that the supply for new -indebted- pilots
will not end anytime soon.
A young cadet can always hope that after 15 or so years will be able to be hired by companies like BA or Virgin. Having managed that then the cost of training, TR etc will be long forgotten and the whole pilot thing will look like a good investment.
Always the aspiring cadets will have as an example those lucky few, who managed to be hired by the legacy carriers.
Thats where lies the secret. If legacy carriers were willing to hire people who managed to acquire all those ratings through modular route debt - free, although at a certain age, then it would be a strong message to aviation community.
Not a right-here right-now mentality which entails a certain amount of debt.
I may be wrong but these are my thoughts for the current enviroment.

[juniour jetset]

May I recomend the book The Dip by Seth Godin

A Little Book That Teaches You When to Quit (and When to Stick)

An easily digestible social marketplace commentary from the blogger/author who penned Purple Cow and Small is the New Big, Godin prescribes a cleverly counter-intuitive way to approach one's potential for success. Smart, honest, and refreshingly free of self-help posturing, this primer on winning-through-quitting is at once motivational and comically indifferent, making the lofty goal of "becoming the best in the world" an achievable proposition-all you need is to "start doing some quitting." The secret to "strategic quitting" is seeking, understanding and embracing "the Dip," "the long slog between starting and mastery" in which those without the determination or will find themselves burning out. As such, Godin demonstrates how to identify and quit your "Cul-de-Sac" and "Cliff" situations, in which no amount of work will lead to success. Godin provides tips for finding your Dip, taking advantage of it and becoming one of the few (inevitably valuable) players to emerge on the other side; he also provides guidelines for quitting with confidence. Quick, hilarious and happily irreverent, Godin's truth-that "we fail when we get distracted by tasks we don't have the guts to quit"-makes excellent sense of an often-difficult career move.

[cowhorse]

If legacy carriers were willing to hire people who managed to acquire all those ratings through modular route debt - free, although at a certain age, then it would be a strong message to aviation community.
They are managers, they don't give a flying squat about your 'passion' and they shouldn't: their goal is to make profit.

As it has already been established, that you do not have to have a college degree to fly an airplane (it is preferable if you're a fitness instructor, as you probably have more money), sell the job to the highest bidder. And let's keep it real: 99,9 percent of the time flying is pure routine, so you do not have to be a brain surgeon. That 0,1 percent is collateral damage.

[felixflyer]

Exactly, the mystery has gone out of flying and its not coming back, anyone that has played about with flight sim knows whats involved and pilots are no longer looked upon as they once were. Yes there will be tales of crosswind landings at night in rough weather but the everyday routine is pretty mundane nowadays and people know this.

I think the above is good in terms of recruitment and the more mundane the job becomes the less glory hunters there will be and people that genuinely want to fly for a living will have more chance.

The job of train driver used to be many peoples dream years ago, can you imagine anybody paying tens of thousands of their own money to drive a train now?

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I have been flying for a living for nearly 10 years and feel lucky to have done so. However, I don't see myself doing it for much longer and would not advise anyone to undertake flight training. If you already have completed training, don't dig yourself deeper into debt by paying for more training. You can't win by paying for ratings, accepting dock labour style contracts and investing £00000's on maybe's. If you are willing and able to undercut somebody else then another person will do the same to you. The UK pilot jobs market has many things going against it right now and if I lost my job, I know that I would not get another flying job.

UK airlines are quite stagnant and the low cost expansion has probably finished. If you are an experienced pilot, even with an A320/B737 rating, it is very unlikely you will get a job in the UK and will need to look abroad. Yes, there are jobs abroad, if you can get one, but you are going into exile and have little chance of getting back into the UK market. I also expect to see another UK airline in deep financial trouble in the next 12-18 months. A few seem to have overly ambitious expansion plans that could backfire and put pilots out of work. The recent thirst has mostly been for cadets, with many slitting their throats, fighting it out to take dire deals. If you do manage to get a cadet placement, what is your future? Working as casual labour, trying to pay huge debts with an unpredictable income whilst management and new joiners undermine you and your possible career paths? That is a future so dark that you'll need to munch more carrots than Bugs Bunny, to see the way forward.

I know that many of you will have trained when times were better, as did I. But, the game has changed and getting a good flying job has never been harder. If you have another, viable career option take it. Buy a decent computer flight simulator setup and keep your skills sharp. Things can change but for now, put your ambitions on ice.

[Cabair351]

---Exactly, the mystery has gone out of flying and its not coming back, anyone that has played about with flight sim knows whats involved and pilots are no longer looked upon as they once were----


Flexi flyer not sure what your experience is but anyone who thinks a couple of hours 'playing flight sim' gives you a good idea about the role of a pilot is way short of the mark..

I do agree with some of the other stuff you mentioned though.

[felixflyer]

Hi

With the latest add-on for flight sim people are aware of how much of the flight is managed by the FMC and how much is hand flown.

I guess what I am trying to say is whereas years ago people assumed the pilots were flying the aircraft with help from the autopilot, now they presume the opposite, whether this is true or not.

How many times have you heard people say things like 'They fly themselves nowadays dont they?'

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

When I get cornered into talking about my job, I find that people TELL ME that the aircraft takes off and lands itself and they all believe that the aircraft has "a pliot" who is the one who can fly and a "co pilot" which is sort of like a drivers mate who is mostly there to make tea and do the filing. It's just like a transit van with wings, press the go button.... Tickets are purchased as a commodity and piloting skill is taken as a given, as is safety. Accountants think like that like that too and they run the show. Only after an accident will the public and accountants start questioning whether trying to hire the person who will do it the cheapest is the best idea. This has happened recently in the US with a series of accidents meaning changes have been made. One major accident would be devastating to any airline. Until that happens the accountants will just keep cutting deeper and make it a less viable career.

[wiggy]

Flexi flyer not sure what your experience is but anyone who thinks a couple of hours 'playing flight sim' gives you a good idea about the role of a pilot is way short of the mark..

Very true.

Flight Sims may be (in some peoples' opinion ) a useful tool for keeping the scan sharp and/or practicing basic procedures but that's about it.
Even chucking in a few random failures isn't replicating what goes on on the line on an average day, indeed it doesn't even replicate the pressure of an average a sim ride (though I guess you might be getting close if you could get a friendly TRE/IRE to sit behind you:\).

With the latest add-on for flight sim people are aware of how much of the flight is managed by the FMC and how much is hand flown.

Despite it's title I've never known an FMC manage any flight, but it has been known to be a valuable tool in managing the flight........(e.g. minimising fuel burn, maintaining ETAs)

[Flieslikeabrick]

Almostgivenup......... I feel for you. I qualified in 2008, having worked as a dispatcher since 2001, and had researched industry, made contacts etc.... and assumed I would land SOME job SOMEWHERE...... A full 5 years on, no closer to that elusive 1st job. £60K, 5 years of modular training, forgone holidays, parties, BBQs, new clothes, cars etc. Delayed having children. Now my wife cannot conceive. Put 110% effort into journey. Just home from 8 hours in a bank earning minimum wage. Sit there thinking "What the @#&% have I done wrong?????" I keep current as my wife states "After all the £%"& you have put us through you are not letting it go...." Answer? I don't know, but you are not alone. My sanity is hanging on by a thin thin thread. Unfortunately being a good person, and an average pilot is not even remotely good enough to help get a job. But I will keep trying, otherwise I will totally crack..... Hope you find the right direction for you.
P.S. Shame about the typical thread creep from others.....

[avtur007]

my tuppence worth. Done the modular route and in 2006 got my first jet job. have worked for 3 different companys in three different countrys since then. First job was great fun but badly paid in central europe, left after a year to join a company in UK which was excellent but it collapsed after 2.5 years. My third job was in the middle east, very well paid but no life, no time off and minimum rest all the time. I done that for 2.5 years when I decided that being a pilot was not so good for me and the family and packed it in. Of course i enjoyed it as a whole, but it was getting worse and I wanted a life that I could choose where to live and how to live it. I now have gone back to my old job which gives me much better quality of life, can live anywhere i choose (rotational position) its very well paid and theres no Bollsht. My family are happier, I dont suffer from headaches due to minimum rest and constant day/night/day rotations, I have a good pension that I can rely on, my job will not disappear and I have a better life overall. the best thing is I dont spend every spare minute looking for better pilot jobs that dont exist, I now just occasionally keep up to date with avaition.
Being a pilot nowadays means committing everything you ( and everything those around you) have and living out of a suitcase. As much fun as it was, the sacrifice is now too great and its only going to get worse. Except for my second job - a large number of captains I flew with on the other jobs were so numb to flying and so disappointed in the way it has worked out for them that they spend their lives planning what else they can do to get out of it. I wouldnt despair about not living the dream cos the dream turned to a nightmare along time ago, but if your still not convinced then at least have a back up plan cos you will need it. The best thing about flying for me is that I had a choice to get out, make sure you have that choice too.
As my wife says, they could train a monkey to fly these days and they will fly for peanuts. so true.
for sale 4400hrs B737 jet time for what its worth;)!!

[SEAMASTER]

avtur007 you could have got a job at monarch and have everything you have now but in the aviation industry ! Opinions are all relative to ones circumstances ! Enjoy that rush hour commute ! Ohhhhh !!!

[skyblue737]

I have the same dilema. I don't know if it is better to give up, or trying to work the next ten years like a slave in any job to save the 80.000 euros that I would need to have a minimum chance of geting a job one day.

I can't imagine spending the rest of my life doing something that I don't like. But job oppotunintes are quite few, and specially in my country where the only way of getting a job as an instructor, an airline or crop dusting is with contacts. Companies like Vueling eliminate all CV's of people without a contact in an Airline.

Out of my contry things seems better, and selection proceses look cleaner, but they require a high amount of flight hours, or the local language.

[cowhorse]

shaun ryder
Probably because you are very disrespectful.

My take on all this is simply to pass a law that states 'ATPL holders need to have a college degree.' Since getting flying experience today is practically impossible, money is the only factor that makes you eligible to fly. So you would make a nice early selection with the education factor plus you would thus insure, that inteligent people are flying the planes.

[mr kingair]

cowhorse - what rubbish

having a degree gives no indication whether one can operate a modern jet or not

I have a degree yes, but I don't' believe it really adds much to my ability to fly

There are many examples of far less formaly-educated people with much better flying careers tha me

I know of one Easyjet captain who only has GCSEs, joined the Army, then left,became a small aircraft pilot then went ATPL and now has four stripes in an A320

[cowhorse]

having a degree gives no indication whether one can operate a modern jet or
not

Sure, having money does.

I have a degree yes, but I don't' believe it really adds much to my ability to
fly
And because of your degree I can assume, that you are an intelligent man, who I can trust, since you have proven yourself in the world of academia. You would of course still have to prove you can fly, but if I would have to choose between yourself and a fitness instructor (let's presume you both are equally proficient in flying) I would choose you. In today's aviation, I would have to choose the one with a thicker wallet (ie fitness instructor, since you studied while he was working).

I know of one Easyjet captain who only has GCSEs, joined the Army, then left,became a small aircraft pilot then went ATPL and now has four stripes in an A320
Do not compare past with today. Today's cadets cannot have the same level of experience that the guys 20 years ago had. Education does not matter with them.

[Poose]

Well said Cowhorse! :D:D:D

To echo your sentiment, the rationale you have provided is why the majority of military officers are degree educated and why a lot of graduate schemes in the UK just require 'a degree'. It demonstrates commitment and the ability to learn.
Having said that, not everyone requires a graduate level of education, but in certain professional and industrial circles it is most definitely appreciated.

I have worked hard at everything throughout my life and have had some success in some unusual and fairly specialist roles.
As a result, I could be considered to have a bizarre, yet half decent CV. Only a few years ago I would have been a realistic contender for a professional airline pilot's job...
However, what we are now witnessing is a profession rapidly becoming a 'job'.

I now find myself in the position that no matter how well qualified I am, with 'highly relevant' professional work experience and qualifications I would still lose out if sat in a room with your 'fitness instructor' that doesn't have two qualifications to rub together.
Put simply. He has 30k. I don't.
I guess I'm not alone... :confused:

Having said that, I have friends who work in other sectors. It's not just the airlines where training budgets are minimal/non existent for the role that people are being asked to perform.
It is also not unusual for 'expensive' experienced people to be shown the door, via some unscrupulous means and to be replaced by a trainee or the woefully inexperienced. They're a 'cost effective way of employing someone'.
HR/Directors don't care who is in post - as long as there is a bum on a seat and they're cheap. Such is this moronic 'McDonaldisation' of everything in the Western world, where the only people who gain from such practice are the directors and shareholders at the expense of the quality of work/product/service etc...

I say that as a staunch top hat wearing, urchin flogging capitalist, too...
The uneven distribution of wealth in the Western world is moving to ridiculous levels.
What we see in the airline industry is just a small part of this... :sad:

[FANS]

Giving up should not necessarily be seen as a failure. It is far better to change direction than continue to furrow a path that is not working.

We all know that this career is heavily dependent upon financial resources, as nearly every tagged scheme involves paying upwards of £70k and often re-mortgaging a house. This inevitably disqualifies many able candidates from the outset.

[NzCaptainAndrew]

"Hope does not give up on you. You give up on hope."

:(

[unflownsky]

I've realised that you cannot buy a dream

Yes you can if you have enough money to do so. Flying is not cheap. You can buy a carreer path in aviation for around 200K euro. With that money you can buy licences and the relative training you need to apply to several jobs. Money will not be the only thing you need but surely the most important one nowaday. If you're lucky enough you can even flying an airliner for hobby and get the money from elsewhere...

[Feedmemore]

there will be no paid jobs anymore. I mean good paid job where you can live with a salary regardless if you are 25 or 40 with a family to feed them ....paid 1500 euro a month is not a salary for me. Did you know slaves were paid too....housing, food....like a pilot....:-)

You have to be dumb to go in this career knowing the situation.(negative trend since these last 20 years)
I remember when you guys said it was foolish to not spend all your money in this profession in 2006 because there was a pilot shortage.

Anyway, have fun to deal with your bank now....feed them more....:-)



Here more hope for you :D, from fly gosh. This guy is right....stop to dream and go uni,


As usual, since this is the new year, a lot of you asked me whether should you invest money on a type rating, pilot Jobs outlook for 2013 and beyond and any slots or vacancies coming up.
> I will start with the pilot industry. Bear in mind that this is solely base on my own opinion since I hire them and know first hand info on whats happening behind the scenes.
>
> Pay to fly will be the de facto method use by airlines especially “some “ low cost carriers to hire new pilots. It use to be only paying for the type rating but certain airlines are asking you to pay right from zero hours. Jetstar and Tiger airways are some of the airline who practise that. You can see the info here Jetstar Cadet Pilot and Cadet Pilot - Tiger Airways.
>
> I know everyone hate it but sadly, that is how the industry will be and is here to stay. But before you complain, you must understand the reason behind it. Oil prices are soaring and as I am typing this, many airlines especially the European region are closing down or going bankrupt.
>
> Airlines will find whatever ways to cut cost and asking pilots to pay is one of them. The second reason is to protect themselves. In Indonesia for example, it use to be free and their rating paid for but a lot of expat abuse the system. Once they get the rating and hours, they just ran away to their home country. We all know that ratings are not cheap and always remember that an airline is to make money, not a free school offering you scholarship and lose money in the end. 
>
> So before you complain, put yourself in the airline’s shoe and imagine yourself as the boss. However the good news is if you are a local citizen, normally you will still be sponsored though it is changing now. For example, malindo has been reported in the news asking all new hired pilots to pay for their rating and line training even though they are locals. You can read about it here .
>
> In the eyes of the airline, it’s a win win situation. They get to save cost and you get to gain experience.
>
> A lot of people accuse that pay to fly pilots are rich kids who are useless and can’t fly. In my personal opinion, I do not think that is the case. There are simply not enough slots for jobless pilot and obviously not everyone can be invited. I know because at the moment I have 4000+ pilots in my database and some are really good pilots, just that they never have the chance to be invited. Like some of you mention to me, “certain” sponsored students got in because of their connection and race and not base on their capability.
>
> One point I want to make is, I am not justifying pay to fly and I hate it too. After all, who doesn’t want free lunch?  But this is how the industry is now and no point complaining on things which is beyond our control and focus on things which are within our control that I am sure all of you will agree.
>
> Let’s move on to aircraft rating. Majority of you ask me whether is it better to take a B737 or A320 rating.  I would say go for whatever aircraft that you like to fly ( unless there is a job guaranteed after you obtain the rating ). If you prefer airbus you take airbus and vice versa. As for me, it doesn’t matter what aircraft type so long I get to fly and I am lucky to be flying a boeing jet today. Both rating are marketable especially in Indonesia since we have so many B737 and A320 operators here. 
>
> Now let’s go to the important topic of pilot job outlook for 2013 and beyond as that is the biggest headache for the entire thousands of jobless pilot out there. We all read that there is a pilot shortage and there is a need for hundreds of thousands of pilot in the coming years. Honestly, I think all that is bullsh*t. 
>
> If journalists are not paid to write rosy stuff, who will enrol into flying school or TRTO to get rating? All their business will collapse. Like i have mention earlier, plenty of airlines are closing down especially in the European region and the market is flooded with experience pilots with thousands of hours. I am getting so many resume from experience pilot and even they themselves are finding a hard time to get a job. 
>
> The latest casualties are from Singapore Airlines. You can read the news here. Captain are asked to take unpaid ( read no salary) leave and if a major airline like Singapore Airline, one of the most biggest and profitable airline in the world can do this, you have an idea how the smaller ones will survive in this tough industry.
>
> That is why there is the pay to fly thing going on, is either they save cost and get some pilots flying, or close down and no pilot jobs at all.
>
> They mention that airlines are ordering many aircraft and new planes hence the need for extra pilots, of course they will be extra slots but with so many experience pilot flooding the pilot, where are the jobs for freshies? Plus like the case of Malaysian Airlines, yes they are getting many new planes but they are also retiring many old plane and have excess pilots now. Even then their excess pilots are being send to fly in Indonesia as secondment. Another example is Silk Air which intends to replace all their A320 with B737. 
>
> Also bear in mind that the new orders of hundred of aircraft is not coming in overnight and it may take few years before they can be delivered. 
>
> The good news is, we have upcoming slots for CPL/low hour and also those rated with zero hours on type. But the number of slots is getting smaller and smaller as in the last few years, so many foreign pilots fill up all the vacancies in Indonesia. It use to be a common thing to fly to Indonesia and go directly to the airline office to get a job. Now at this point of time, that is not possible anymore and wasting your time and money unless you have connection or know someone inside.
>
> But the amount of jobless pilots keep increase daily with them graduating almost every month from flying school around the world. I still remember it takes me few weeks to get a recruitment event to be filled up last time, today I only need few hours before we are fully booked.
>
> I know what I am saying above is not really a good piece of news especially for the start of the year since everyone love to hear rosy and beautiful painted story that there are tons of job around. I am not saying there are none, just that it is limited and it is becoming a challenge to get your first airline job especially for freshies. Some says that it is important to stay positive which is true but I suggest you want to add a thing called “reality”. Staying positive and being reality is too different thing.  That is exactly why so many invest a lot of money in their CPL and rating and end up jobless. Remember, nobody put a gun in your head and you can only blame yourself for not doing your research and being ignorant.
>
> I am not saying don’t do it since like myself, no matter whether the industry is good or not I will still chose to become a pilot as I can’t imagine myself doing any other jobs. It’s a challenge and I waited 2 years after flying school before I got my first job. So if I can do it, so can you. In fact as all of you know by now, I am giving people the opportunity to become a pilot , something which I have never imagine I will do so since I was once in your shoe, a jobless pilot knocking doors around the world looking for opportunity. I am not blowing my horn here but today I have to politely decline offers and seriously life can turn out to be awesome when you least expect it ! ( provided you have a positive mindset and take action ).
>
> What I wrote above may not please some of you, after all we can’t please everyone right?. Look you can complain and procrastinate which in my dictionary, that is wasting time and a pilot job can never drop down from the sky or you can chose to take action under whatever circumstances and make the best out of it. Honestly, if I can, I will invite everyone ( 4000+ in my database ) and hope all of you become a pilot. But you and I know that is not possible as there are limited slots. Their first priority is always their own local citizens first. Just like Malindo, their newly recruited pilots must all be 100% Malaysian. That’s why the best way is to try your home country airline first if that is possible.
>
> For those of you who are considering taking up piloting as a career, make sure you have done your research and have all the financials in place. It’s an awesome career and worth every effort to be where I am today. Also, please consider taking up a university degree before you embark your career as a pilot. I spend 4 years in university before I fly and it is important to use your degree as a backup in case ( touch wood ) your pilot career fail or “yet” to take off !
>

[avtur007]

shaunryder:
I dont have a desk job and get 3 weeks off out of every 5 weeks and get paid more than a pilot. Also dont have to do traffic jams or anything else to do with a normal 9-5 job as my job is not like that, but it is far better on the whole than the aviation industry. Dont make assumptions that there is no other job out there better than being a pilot. Its not about not being able to hack it as a pilot, its about not wanting to hack my way through life as a pilot.

[avtur007]

seamaster:I got a PFO from monarch and wasnt prepared to wait around in the industry hoping for something else to come up, but have to agree that theres one or two gems still out there but for how long! Luckily my other job has no commute and if it did would be a real drag too!:)

[angelorange]

Aircraft have become "simpler to fly" but more complex in how the automation can fail. The biggest killer of passengers and crew in Western Jets according to western jet maker Boeing is Pilot Loss of Control. Around 2000 people are no longer with us over a ten year period:

www.boeing.com/news/techissues/pdf/statsum.pdf

Interestingly the alarming rise in Upset incidents has co-incided with the reduction in flying experienced required to gain a CPL/frozen ATPL.

Airmanship has been lost and it is significant that one of the most respected airlines in the EU with it's own "top grade/integrated JAR" training course put two JAR cadet pilots at the helm of an A330 that ended up still in flyable condition in the South Atlantic with the loss of all 228 on board - most of us know the sad tale of AF447.

Yes they had 1000s of Airbus hours (in the cruise) but very little experience beforehand - It was exactly the kind of course that CTC, OAA and others sell to individuals wishing to follow an "integrated" approach. In fact the AF course was better - it had a proper job at the end of it and the students did not face the huge financial pressures we hear of here.

However,this A330 FO and SO did not have military style training where even at 15h an Army student can recover from an Incipient Spin, or a few sorties later be able to cope with a low level bird strike or a low level abort into IMC with a stuck throttle.

Unlike their Captain who was asleep in the rear of the A330, they had no significant GA background - one had flown a glider a couple of times but how many years ago is not mentioned in the BEA report. So they went from less than 200h course straight into one of the most automated jets in history - the A320. A few years later an abbreviated conversion onto the A330 with even less sectors and opportunities for hands on flying.

Their aeronautical knowledge left much to be desired - particularly regarding high altitude flight - something the regulators never checked apart from the initial ATPL multiple guess papers they sat at over 10 years before.

Their CRM was hugely lacking - after stalling the aircraft they ignored the warnings and did not cross check understanding. Indeed, when the stall warner gave up and the Captain re-appeared, they failed to tell him what had happened - so he was out of the loop entirely.

Now look at other EU airlines and those that employ the most cadets. Apart from Lufthansa (which trains it's cadets alongside Luftwaffe trainees in the USA before a Twin Jet IR in Germany), most use the "big" schools like CTC, OAA etc. This means self funding all the way. And that also means there is a large element of "self selection".

Sadly some integrated course flying instructors have been shocked by the lack of desire for hands on flying that many Integrated students have - many just want the shiny suit and jet job image they are "entitled to" having paid £120k or more getting through the hoops/ticking the boxes. Some are downright scared of flying a light aircraft or practising stall recovery.

These schools have, to their credit, introduced an element of Upset recovery to the new MPL being promoted. However, the MPL trains co-pilots - and it can be legally done with just 70h of real flying. No one dies in the SIM - its just a computer game. So these cadets are being ripped off as they are not given the chance to develop real airmanship - like what to do with a nose wheel shimmy on take off or a fuel leak or weather closing in on their solo x-country trip. And paying passengers are underpaying the real cost of flying without realising the lack of real world flying experience in the front seats.

EZY now has crews that are perfectly competent when things are going right - with no other background than what the A330 crew had plus a few more debts. Total time up front lower than 4000h - of which probably 400h were hands on. You only have to read the concerns in CHIRP to know things aren't right.

www.chirp.co.uk/downloads/ATFB/ATFB101.pdf

Across the atlantic we had Colgan Q400 crash. Colgan 3407. The Captain was P2F before joining Colgan - he paid to fly pax on a B1900. His co-pilot was a fair wx instructor with minimal night/IMC time. They operated on LoCo budgets - the FO's pay was less than an airport toilet cleaner's.

http://www.operationorange.org/colganQ&A.pdf

Result? 50 more people no longer with us.

Most US jet carrier require a min of 700h. Congress want that to be 1500h - there are arguments both ways. But 700h UK CPL route weeded out a lot of no flyers - it took perseverance - some took 8 years to get a well paid flying job. But that kind of tenacity and resilience is a large part of taking a longer view and not rushing youngsters into cockpits - we are not fighting the Battle of Britain - young life is not that expendable and neither are pax's lives.

The current UK Pilot Training System is failing the student and reducing fllght safety for airline pax.

OOA's Anthony Petteford is right to be concerned by the apparent lack of Pilot mentoring by airlines. The MPL has it's place but it requires a rethink - particulary of the confidence building solo time and apprenticeship areas. Cadets are not necessarily being trained to the highest possible standard, rather to a minimum regulatory standard with minimal course flexibilty due to high costs and an unwillingness for some schools to change. In addition the modular route is seen as a second class citizen.

Now the CAA looks set to make life even harder (financially) for the latter by mandating further cost on the individual who is not MPL approved through a JOC. Given previous studies such as the Cranfield University FORCE (investigation into Type Rating training and manual flying skills) and ICATEE / RAeS concerns over airline piloting skills, something more than just an MPL or modular plus JOC is needed.

We need still aviators not just ticks in the right boxes:

Ref: US Airways 1549: A320 Hudson ditching: Was Capt Sullenberger an MPL? Did he have a GA background in gliding? Did he fly for the Military?
US Airways Flight 1549 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549)

Hudson River Plane Landing (US Airways 1549) Animation with Audio - YouTube


Ref: QF32 Qantas A380 engine and system failures: How much experience was in the front seats?

From the RAeS interview: "Captain David Evans is a Senior Check Captain at Qantas with some 32 years of experience and 17,000hrs of flight time. At the time of the incident he was in one of the observers’ seat, and thus had a ring-side view of the drama as it unfolded. The other flight deck crew were Richard de Crespigny (Pilot in Command, 15,000hrs), Harry Wubben (Route Check Captain, 20,000hrs) Matt Hicks (First Officer, 11,000hrs and Mark Johnson (Second Officer 8,000hrs). With the Cabin Service Manager (Michael Von Reth) this team boasted some 140 years of experience and over 71,000 flight hrs – a significant factor in the successful outcome of the incident."


A radical aeronautically based rethink on both training and recruitment is required.

The alternative is almost unthinkable.

[inner]

Ok my contribution to this thread.

I'm graduated in 2005. Got a job and have now +2000 hours on bizz jet. Am i happy? No, perspective in the company is nihil. I'm feeling the drive to make progress in my career, keen on learning things in aviation. Im studying in my free time, because i want to improve myself as a pilot. Although, the reality is against it. Wrong age, not the correct typerating etc. Even prepared to fund new rating. Im looking now for 2 years for a new outfit. Without 1 single interview. Yes, yes, now you hear the story of a pilot with some hours and a job. I decided that at the end of the year, if there is no improvement, ill throw the towel. Replacement? No problem,at the ops, there enough guys to pick my job.
It is not on giving up the hope. It is about reality.

[PapaEchoNovember]

@angelorange

Where are European pilots supposed to get this hands on flying experience to get from 200/250hrs to >700hrs/1500hrs, if they aren't from the military elite or hard core instructors.

SPA ops are few and far between and instructing isn't financially viable, (and not everyone whats to be an instructor, which creates the nasty cycle of generating uninterested hour building instructor and poor quality students). Amassing this many hours might be achievable in USA but not in Europe.

And just because one has tens of thousands of hours of experience doesn't make completely them infallible, complacency? etc.

Look at today's tragic heli incident in London, and there are numerous other incidents I could use to counter your argument.

Personally I'm not convinced that 1) having hundreds of VFR flying hours makes a line pilot safer and 2) (above, say 250 hours) Number of flying hours increases safety proportionally. Its much more complex and there are a much larger number of variables to consider, such as currency, aptitude and knowledge. Experience doesn't always necessarily equate to ability or competence

Above all the number one priority is flight safety, without compromise (this should go without saying) and as an (f)ATPL and prospective FO I would like to think that, if the s**t hit the fan, I would go as far as putting my life on the line for passengers, if required.

Solutions? More demanding aptitude tests, more upset recovery and manual handling on the TR or during sim checks, or making an initial TR course more demanding.

Not all low hour (f)atpl's are Kamikaze, I believe EASA understand the situation in the EU is very different to FAA/USA, (where there are many more options) and this is why the regulations haven't changed. And with the greatest of respect, I hope your wrong.

By the way, could you please quote where the CAA have stated JOC will be required in the future?

[appfo09]

Whatever you currently have in your hands hold it tight and remain with it.

It's not the right time to make changes in your career !

[PURPLE PITOT]

Strange how those with little experience fail to see its relevance!:ugh:

[angelorange]

Dear PEN

Pl read my comments carefully. Hopefully it'll be clear that I am not against low hour pilots at all. After all most Mil guys have around 400h before they are front line. The original BA scheme was good in that cadets often flew in 3 crew L1011 Tristars or on ATP TPs before going onto SH 2 crew jets. Lufthansa scheme also good.

However, I completely disagree with the idea that the EU is somehow a special case - we have plenty of opportunities to fly but the greed of the integrated only and low hr JAR courses leaves GA in the doldrums - a self fulfilling prophesy.

How on earth did airlines cope in the 1990s? They took Flying instructors and Glider Tow pilots. Have you looked into Fisheries patrol in your search for flying experience? Have you investigated Calibration flying (MoTs for ILS/Radar etc)? Have you spent 6 months in Maun Botswana trying to get Bush Pilot time?

I am against the system that rips young wanabees off, provides minimal training at extortionate prices and at the same time denies careers to experienced pilots in favour of P2F / MPL only or Flexicrew.

I happen to teach military pilots and it is all about aptitude not ability to pay for training. These guys put their lives on the line everyday for your civil safety in the most inhospitible places on the planet. Many of their colleagues (some of them former students I knew) have paid the ultimate price for our democratic freedoms.

If you are resilient you WILL find a way to build flying experience and gain valuable insights into airmanship whether its in a towing a Glider or flying one, or working for a TP airline. Some have taken shares in aircraft to build time. Each and every trip can be useful. So what if it takes you ten years to get 700h.

The fact is there are way too many low houred pilots out there and the numbers produced in the UK alone are around 1000 frozen ATPLs per annum. Someone is lying about the availability of jobs. In a recession, fast courses lead to nowhere fast.

In addition, experienced pilots cannot get a look into airlines like EZY because they only take MPL / Flexicrew or in rare cases those with over 500h on a specific type. With the demise of GA comes the demise of chats with chief pilots over a cuppa/beer and in comes HR, online forms, silly requirements, Compass tests, and fees upon fees.

This means an airline like Flybe has a huge number of pilots who are stuck on a career ladder that has been blocked by the LoCo low hour model.

The Q400 captains can't get a job on a jet because they only take 200h cadet who will pay or catch 22 time on type. Meanwhile the Q400 FO cant become Captains. And just over their shoulders are the MPL FOs who the company bring in as cheaper labour - so I feel for those Flybe FOs right now. Unless the likes of Emirates recognise 1000h heavy TP time there will be no change.

The fact is 1000h heavy TP time in busy EU airspace and bumpier Wx and more levers than any LH jet pilot has to cope with does build valuable airmanship - the rest can be learned on the B777 TR and study of high speed / high alt flight and climatology.

I wish to see a return to an apprenticeship scheme where low zero to hero schemes are replaced with 2+ years on TP then onto A319 etc. Pilots are employed on ability to fly not ability to pay.

The LOC requirement is post AF447 and discussed in Flight Global magazine last year.

Hopefully we are all brave enough to put our lives on the line for our pax - but having 200h and staight into a automated jet that is on fire or a captain that has gone hypoxic - or like the guy next to the RYR Capt who had just lost his son and made an unstable approach into Rome - Without other experiences to fall back on - what would the low hour guy do if fatigue blew the roof off first class?

So many have been poorly instructed or read useless pass the pilot interview crib sheets - just ask about mach buffet or how to recover a JAR25 a/c from a stall.

In some cases it is the young pilot's fault - they should know better, but mostly I blame the system we now have.

Oh and by the way I never set out to become a flying instructor but some studes seem to think in doing so I did them a favour ! So if you really want to know something try teaching it!

[Feedmemore]

There is no job for everybody, this is why this industry can set their own rules like 500h on type before to apply for an interview,

Even if you land a job on a jet , for how long, 6 months? 12 months? Then they show you the door and the long looking for a new job' struggle starts again.!


All my friend tell me they have a job for now but have no idea what will happen to them if their company go out of business or redundancy.

So, spending a couple of hundred thousand euro in a eu license with no future and no guaranty of job in the long term is in my point a foolish plan reserved only for the kid who have no idea how in dee s...t they will finish.

Look west for your career.

[Poose]

The nail has been firmly hit upon the head there, I think! :D:ok:

[inner]

Superpilot, spot on!!!!!! :ok:

[BigNumber]

Ahhhh but you are still there are you not Super Pilot:E

[bluecode]

This topic raises it's head perennially, unsurprisingly as people reach their nadir and consider their future. I can relate to it. But in fact I persisted beyond all reasonableness. Never quite giving up but no longer pursuing it.

In the end what pushed me back into flying was a truly terrible job which I quit with the intention of renewing my licence and ratings and become a flight Instructor. Yes there are worse jobs than being a pilot. I had the pleasure of telling them I was quitting to become a pilot without actually believing it too much. But less than a year later I had the sheer pleasure of overflying the building rather lower than neccessary in my employer's aeroplane. :D I never did become a Flight Instructor though.

Ironically I almost fell into the job, not least thanks to several pilots who came out of the current training system minus the basic airmanship and flying skills who were soon shown the door before they killed themselves or someone else.

Since then any illusions I had left were well and truly chipped away and the job such as it is became something of a chore at times. Not to mention low paid.

But in a supreme case of irony. I find myself in a position to either give wannabees a chance or kill it for them. So naturally I come across many of the issues mentioned in this thread. This time from the inside.

I see a lot of wannabee pilots and always give them the time of day if I can but many do themselves no favours. No one wants to hear your sob story. Mine is better! Sometime they tell how long they've been looking for work and honestly you can see why.

The best candidates always stand out. There is a 'right' type of personality, couple that with the right flying skills and you have a winner and that's the problem. Some of them can't actually fly properly. It's not just lack of experience. It's the basics. Not their fault, most of the time.

There are a couple of people lined up for this year. Right place, right time for them. If they fit in they will get their chance and end up disliking the job as much as I do. But they'll have their start and if they're lucky again they'll end up moving on to bigger if not neccessarily better things like several previous pilots.

Incidentally five or six years waiting is not remarkable. Many of my contemporaries took that long or longer to get the magic airline job. It really depends on ongoing market conditions. As I see it the current situation is the norm. The days of walking into jobs straight out of flight school are gone for now. But there is one difference between them and many of the current crop. They kept flying, some as full time Instructors, others as part time and more glider towing, skydiving etc. They didn't just renew their licences and ratings periodically. They actually loved flying for flying sake.

Maybe there's a lesson in that.

[avtur007]

inner, bluecode and superpilot glad to hear you guys can see the unfortunate darkness on the shambles that is aviation. I still intend to mince around with some adhoc flights and the like as i still have the bug, but itll be a long time before i will be again career flying to India at midnight on a 11 hour duty, 2 times in a row then switch onto a 6.30am 12 hour duty to Cairo the next day.:D

[Halfbaked_Boy]

cowhorse,

My take on all this is simply to pass a law that states 'ATPL holders need to have a college degree.'

What a ridiculous idea, in the UK at least anyway.

It costs circa £30,000 - £60,000 to obtain a university degree (UK equivalent) these days...

Just how much do you think people can afford? In the worst case scenario, you're talking about people spending nearly a quarter of a million pounds to become an airline pilot!

As things stand, you have the choice of going to university and working in a half decent job for a few years to pay for training, or beginning work at a younger age in a crappier job to accomplish the same within the same time frame.

On the one hand you have somebody who has demonstrated that they have the ability to learn, quite correct.

But on the other, you have somebody who was prepared perhaps to do what the other wasn't? My previous employer (pilot job) always took the 'life experienced' over the 'university experienced'... It was discovered that the former were generally better people to be around and got on with the job to a higher standard.

A degree shows that you are able to drag yourself away from a drink fueled stupor to get to lectures on time and you know how to pass exams. No disrespect meant to those learned individuals who went to university for the right reasons, I'm talking about the 80% these days and I'm speaking from experience.

Degrees are no longer what they used to be.

In the modern world it's the money that does the talking.

[MCDU2]

I have been banging on about this for donkeys years but here it goes anyways.

For the more mature wannabe you really have to consider carefully getting into this game. Its all about seat time and seniority and if age isn't on your side then your up against it from the start.

Your average kid gets into aviation in the early 20's. They go to FR and do a few winters and get an early command or perhaps they time it right and jump into BA. They then start at the bottom of a very long seniority list at BA but don't care about the time spent at FR since they are young. By the time they are 30 they could see a short haul command or if they wish stay on longhaul and get LHS another 5-10 years later. Still short of 40 more than likely. That will still give them 15-20 years in the LHS.

Start in your 40s and its much harder. Currently there are no quick commands in any of the locos. That means your stuck. BA has finished hiring DEs for the foreseeable future and there is no more BMI. Young guys are much more willing to put up with being shafted around than older folk as they have no ties and its all still a bit of an adventure. The older guys don't like being shafted, have lots of life experience and want to be treated like a human being. Throw into the mix a family and the pressures that brings and its a recipe for disaster.

I suspect the above is what the poster has worked out. He could be facing the prospect of a long time in the RHS at a loco and only ever shifting to the LHS in the medium to long term with continually eroding T&Cs and a base which is nowhere near his family home. The chances of getting out to a major airline are slim to none given that his experience won't ever fit his age. Sad but true.

[n.dave]

given up? Yes, sometimes i thought about it. But, i came too far to give up! My heart is pushing me to chase the dream.
2 years now since i have graduated and still couldn't find a flying job! Have a degree in aeronautical eng. and try to give a go at eng. departments but they are not interested (maybe i got a cpl or i'm too stale). Ir Renewal is on the way and that will be 1500-2000 pounds gone. I am spending more than i am earning. I have been networking and made some contacts. One of cx's sfo told me there is a possibly a danger for me if i don't find a job soon! I will become stale and hard to compete with the fresh meats. Holy cow!! I keep up dating myself by reading aviation news and atpl notes.(sad i know, but i enjoy it). What should i do? I see myself there are 2 options. One, is to travel to africa and find a bush pilot job, and then it will open up more roads. 2, is get a job here and fly once a month(or get a instructors rating) but new roads will slowly appear. My family and friends want me to stay but i'm keeping it open for now. Theres a old chinese man saying 'if you can't find a horse, find cow and in search for a horse'
cheers

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Cowhorse,

I wouldn't disagree with anything in your last post. It would be laughable how many people are training to become pilots for 1% of that amount of jobs, if we weren't talking about people's lives being ruined.

It's one very difficult, depressing decision for two reasons -

1) Getting thus far has nearly made me homeless, lost me my wife and I no longer can afford a reliable mode of transport. I cannot let that be for nothing, I need to push on so all those sacrifices will mean something in the end.

2) If I push on, there is a very high risk that I will fall further behind the financial drag curve than I am already, and ruin my life totally, living the rest of my days out filled with regret, ultimately relying on a state pension in retirement.

I am fortunate enough not to have come anywhere near point 1 above, I am still undecided and will probably reassess the situation in 5-10 years.

[Feedmemore]

Most of you guys don't have economic eduction and are totally disconnected from reality.

Have you seen air France, British airways, and air Berlin,....? They are on their knees.

Europe is fully stacked with planes and pilots for the next 5 years at least.

So there won't be any mass hiring for sure and the chance to get a job is near 0.

Still, you don't need to give up, your wife and you bank will give up before you.

What do you think you are with your 200h of seminole and da 40....?kind of flying god?

[banjodrone]

Every so often I get that feeling that maybe it's time to call it a day and stop dreaming but as soon as I go to an air show, aviation museum, watch some documentary on TV or even just travel on a plane, the feeling that this is what I really want to do just overwhelms me. I'm sure lots of you can relate.

[shaun ryder]

I get you. Some of us actually feel aviation is in our blood, its been with us since our first memories of childhood. I never tire of going to see aircraft in museums or at air shows, I see my job as being a hobby that I get paid to do. I feel fortunate that I hardly ever feel jaded, I actually enjoy going to work!

[shocko1]

very true and well written B

[Poose]

Shaun Ryder,

I'm exactly the same... the hard part I find, is trying to keep one's chin up when you realise that due to your inability to pay for a Type Rating and, or work for peanuts, that you might never be able to fly for a living... despite all of the hardwork and sacrifice.

I have ex-Modular acquaintances and friends who got into the more reputable regional outfits around 2008, before the CTC near monopolisation of UK recruitment... I look at them now like they won the lottery, finishing training at the time they did. :(

[magicmick]

Poose makes a valid point that timing is extremely important more so than networking, it doesn't matter how well connected you are if you are seeking employment at a time when no-one has any vacancies.

Despite romantic notions of having aviation in the blood and passion for flying, there will come a time when you are throwing good money after bad by keeping everything in date and chasing employment. The trick is to recognise that time and to be dispassionate and cold enough to quit.

For me personally either I haven't reached that time yet or I have reached it and I'm too blind to recognise it.

Good luck to you all (providing you don't have better luck than me)

[no sponsor]

I was unbelievably lucky and I work for one of the best airlines in the world where we are treated like the professionals we all aspire to be, and the company firmly believes that its pilot workforce is not a commodity to be outsourced to the lowest bidder. There are quite a few airlines (and I worked for one of them) where you are treated pretty badly by modern-day cotton-mill owners. Despite flying a jet, the shine wears off pretty quickly, for all sorts of reasons, including spiteful non-flying DFOs!

These days, the stories of flexi-crew pilots for EZY saddens me because there is only a career in a handful of organizations spread across Europe. For the rest, you're simply treated no better than a factory worker on minimum wage. (Except factory workers didn't spend 18 months and £100K on learning to stuff meat products into cardboard boxes.)

After training, I gave myself 2 years to find a job. After that time I would have packed it in and continued with my then career. As a new pilot 2 years is too long to go without sustained exposure to a commercial pilot environment. That's what any chief pilot or HR bod will assume as well.

Don't piss your life away waiting for the never never. People say that you don't want to be on your death bed saying 'what if', but people don't seem to think that you, equally, don't want to be saying 'what was I thinking?'. It takes courage, wisdom and integrity to realize that first, there is no career in the majority of airlines, and second, fate has deemed you should walk a different path.

Don't waste your life. Look for other opportunities, and treat your little blue book as a learning experience.

[OneIn60rule]

Well it has been several years since I started the idea of flying as a job.

It worked out for Instructing but the pay for that was finally just not good enough to warrant staying in the gig. So after 4 years of it I left the company.

My venture started when I was 26 and I'm now 35. I had roughly 4-5 chances of a job as FO or Captain but each time someone wanted payment. These chances came up just before the big economy crash and after.


Looking back I should probably have paid for it.

Now I'm unemployed and have been for 6 months.

The idea of getting into an airline is unrealistic for me. The best I could hope for at present is gaining a job with a small regional place, that would be more than adequate.


So no I haven't given up, the dream has only changed.

[tonyic7]

I can easily relate to other people's experiences of finishing flight school and not getting a job. Flight schools are businesses and what they want is primarily your hard earned (or yet to be earned in most cases) cash, followed by a successful pass so they can say - "you wanted a licence and that's what you got".

I qualified mid 2007, £80k debt, in a holdpool Oct07, out the holdpool beginning 2008 because of the recession. I had no money, no way raise funds to pay for a TR, felt depressed, marriage strained and didn't see how this nightmare would come to an end. To make matters worse I got a job in my old career, which overlooked the approach end of a busy airfield. I kept dreaming, sending CV's, keeping IR current and then 4.5yrs later my break came. After pleading with family and the bank, I raised enough to pay for the TR (by the way, even though i couldn't afford it at the time, I was dead against paying for a TR back in 2007) and started my dream job. Ok, i'm flying a Boeing and there are still a few minor issues, I may only have £50 a week to myself after paying off loans but that won't be forever. What I'm saying is you don't know what's around the corner, keep sending CV's, maybe try phoning smaller companies and ask if you can pop in to see them, a face to face is worth much more than an email. I wish you all the best and hope you to can escape your nightmare. Good luck!

[magicmick]

Hi tony, first off all sincere congratulations on keeping the faith and landing the gig of your dreams. I would be grateful if you could enlighten me a little further did you pay for your type rating with no sign of a job and go out and find one or did you get the job offer and have to pay for the rating as a condition of employment?

I qualified in mid 2008 (rotten timing) and I too have reverted to my previous aviation based career (engineering). So I can understand the frustration that you must have felt and how your attitude to self funded rating and P2F etc softened over the years. I’m sure if it wasn’t for the need to provide for my family then I’d have cracked and stumped up for a rating long ago.

Good luck with the job, enjoy it, you’ve earned it

[tonyic7]

You're right about the timing, from what I hear it has been just as bad as post 9-11. The airlines are cyclical but I think it will still be a few years or so before things are on the up.

Regarding paying for my TR, I was offered a contract of employment subject to completing the TR with a TRTO - which was arranged by my employer but me picking up the tab. Another big risk as unfortunately two people on my course failed the TR.

If I were in your position I would NOT go and get a TR without having first secured a job. You could blow £25k+ on the TR course, but as an ab-initio you will need to do base training 6 take-off & landings and then operate with a training capt for usually min of 40 sectors. After this you're on the line but still very new to the game. Every day is different, you learn new things, have small issues which may require the use of the QRH, icing, mod turbulence at FL340 - having a v/s descent of 1500pm whilst pitching 5 deg nose up is not fun, managing descents and then ATC cut 30 track miles off the STAR leaving you high, SOP's.... the list is endless. By obtaining a TR before a job you will just limit your market, you would also need to do recurrent training and hiring a sim and TRE would be loads more expensive than popping up in a PA34 or whatever. I had nearly a month off not long ago and when getting back into the plane, for the first 1hr, I felt new again. If you did a TR with no job, I think you would forget all you had learnt very quickly.

To make myself stand out a bit more I bit the bullet and enrolled on another JOT course (£2,500 to Mr Visa - this was 4yrs after finishing flight school) which was 16hrs full motion B737. This definitely helped when it came to the interview.

Hope this have given you food for thought, good luck to you to!

[SEAMASTER]

Good luck with the job, enjoy it, you’ve earned it !!

I think you'll find he's paid for it rather than earned it ! Another one adding to the demise of his own profession !! Eh, on a positive note though he's got fifty quid a week to himself !! Dear oh dear !!

[tonyic7]

Seamaster

This game is all about luck and being in the right place at the right time. You were flying before me when the market was not quite so cut throat so may have been lucky enough to escape paying any type rating costs. Lucky you!! Had I started in the hold pool I was in I would not have paid for a TR.

The good thing is I work for a company which is expanding rapidly and turning a profit.

[magicmick]

Yeah I can understand Seamasters sentiments but as has been pointed out they have been a member of PPRuNe since 2003 and almost certainly qualified at a time when the recruitment situation was better than it is now.

The recruitment of pilots has definitely been cyclical of late with relatively well defined peaks and troughs, unfortunately we’re in a trough right now and I cannot see any sign of starting back up the slope towards a peak. Obviously the current recession plays a part in the flat lining at the bottom of the trough but I feel that the plethora of P2F schemes also plays a huge part, experienced ex-mil and TP/ air taxi pilots cannot move onto jets as that seat is reserved for those with £50k of their own or someone else’s money to burn. P2F is nothing new, back in 2005 Bond Aviation used to flog 737 ratings with 100hrs line flying but the amount of different P2F schemes now is helping to keep us in this ‘trough’.

Paying for a rating with a job offer at the end helps to mitigate the risk of financing your own rating but people do still get chopped during type training or line training, losing their job offer and the money that they stumped up for their training. So to counter Seamasters earlier comment tonyic7 got the training that they paid for but paying for the training in no way guarantees the job. The job comes from the hard work and dedication needed to complete the rating and line training to a satisfactory standard and you can’t pay for that which is why I feel that the job (not the training) is well earned.

My one glimmer of hope since qualifying has been an assessment day for RYR, unfortunately I had the call a few days before the date of the assessment and had no time to arrange time is a simulator. Having done my MCC in a TP sim and no JOC, the first time that I set foot in a jet sim was on the assessment day and I didn’t cover myself in glory, in fact I was well behind the sim throughout so it came as no surprise when the ‘custard pie’ email arrived a couple of weeks later. Many people said that I’d dodged a bullet by not getting into RYR but in the current situation opportunities are rare to say the least and cannot be squandered lightly.

So to all those who had to pay for training as a condition of a job offer and are now established in the job I still say well done and well earned.

[Kelly Hopper]

Many of you seem to think that the job situation now is abnormal? It isn't. This is normal. What we had the last few years was abnormal, just like all the money flooding the economy. But it wasn't reality. This is.

[davve]

Don't give up.
I have been looking for a job for two years now.

Yesterday I got a call back from a flight school where I was interviewed. If I only pass the psych evaluation I will be moving to San Diego to work as a full time flight instructor.

Work hard and become the best pilot you can be. Sooner or later a job will appear.

[Feedmemore]

Even if you got lucky to get a job... For how long.?



Have seen resume of guys with 10 different employers.
The difference now is that there is no job anymore. Before market was unstable, and now with all these bankruptcies where we go?

Better to give up... Belive me. I know guys who left aviation 3 years ago and are now smiling to have back a normal life.

Not worth to cut your veins just for a few hours in a plane or spending a life on line to look for a job which doesn't really exist as this profession became nowadays just a hobby through pay to fly scheme.

Still some pilots will be happy to fly some single engine in **** hole places but soon they will realise this job is more a pain with low paid, no freedom, and always this what I do next? " bad feeling.

[250hrsand counting]

@ bealzebub well said:ok:
in reply to this topic, giving up is not an option:=
im a 250+ CPL/ME/IR pilot with no job, i admit my inexperience makes me unattractive to airlines and charter companies which is as expected :rolleyes:
but im still persistent and consistent that change will come
i try to renew my ratings and licenses, working on my flight instructor rating and IATRA written.$$$$ is tight, bills are piling up but my goal remains my goal. i will get there and im going wherever aviation takes me even if my GF leaves me:ugh:
i feel like giving it all up sometimes but i remember what lies within me is stronger that what lies before me.......KEEP THE FAITH GUYS :ok:
He who caters for the fishes of the sea and the birds of the air will also cater for you if you but believe:)

[croninh1]

Hi,
I could really do with some advice from those of you with knowledge in this field as I am currently on the verge of giving up my dream to be an airline Pilot. Here is my situation… I completed my commercial license in 2008 and unfortunately have had no luck in securing a job as a pilot despite 2 interviews with Ryanair.. Since I qualified I have been working as a manager in a bar and now 5 years down the line and with my ATPL’s out of date at the end of 2015 I really need to decide whether to pursue my dream any further. As you all know it’s costly to become qualified and to continue renewing licences etc. so I am now considering giving it one last go but I am unsure whether it is worth the effort as with Ryanair most likely a non-runner that leaves me with very little opportunities in Ireland.
The other issue is my age, I am 35 and with just under 300 hours total time I feel the odds are against me.
So I am looking for any advice/thoughts on my situation, would you give up or give it one more go?
Also does anyone know whether there is any non pilot work that you could apply for on the back of having a commercial license? I am prepared to move to where there may be opportunities i.e UAEi/Asia or anywhere that I may gain employment.
I would love to hear other’s stories. I’m desperate at this stage and any feedback would be much appreciated.

[elmore81]

croninh1 do you have an valid IR?

Thought about instructing, going abroad?

[Superpilot]

There are hundreds in the same boat as you (as if you need reminding) and many of them have travelled for months on end all over the world looking for opportunities. Forgive me if I've misunderstood something but seems you've narrowed your search only to Ireland (having failed RYR twice and hoping for a third go). Sounds to me (based on what you have said so far), you haven't been very flexible so far and are only now beginning to realise it. Asia/M.E want experienced people. No way in hell you will gain any kind of junior level employment before a local. 35 years old, 300 hours does not put you in the best of standings especially if you've also ruled out a SSTR and P2F. Sorry but my advice would be to call it a day unless you're prepared to change all the above and even then this career will not come before you've spent another €50-70k. Sad state of affairs I know.

[Northern Highflyer]

Having just read this thread from the beginning I can relate / empathise with a lot of what has been said. Having qualified in 2005 I had what can only be put down to bad luck (got an interview with BACX who were then taken over by Flybe and all interviews were binned), recession, several other close calls, but all coming to nothing. I went into it well researched and eyes wide open. Yes it would be nice to have that money back, but I knew the risks and the training was one of the best times of my life. I don't regret doing any of it.

Instructing didn't appeal to me at that time and I received comments about "not wanting it bad enough", etc, but we are all different. Besides, I know many instructors with many hours under their belt who are getting nowhere either. I still haven't lost my love for aviation and despite everything, I would still jump at the chance to fly for a living, but realistically it's not going to happen now. CTC seem to have the market all sewn up these days, and I'm no longer a 20 something.

My current job isn't a bed of roses and with possible redundancy looming, I would still take up a flying career if the opportunity presented itself. I will keep probing and searching for that one lucky break. Maybe someone somewhere is searching for a pilot with maturity and life experience who they can relate to. Good luck to all, whatever you decide.

[Superpilot]

The popular thought amongst the expired old relics from that bygone era of “self-improvers” (what’s that I hear most of you ask?) who are still running the show is that 1.) Integrated flight training schools provide a flight training regime that is better suited to developing an Airline Pilot. 2.) Integrated flight training schools have a selection process that weeds out the undesirables.

It would appear that Modular schools apparently either deliberately or otherwise teach their students in a way that does not make them as good Airline Pilots and the airline industry really does not care if you’re not rich enough, stupid enough or desperate enough (delete as appropriate) to effectively pay a €50k premium to be “selected”. Anyway, lets ignore the fact that CTC is run mostly by ex-EasyJet management and that the old Hamble club plays a part in the cosy relationship between OAA and BA.

[HamishMcBush]

From my Primary school days, I wanted to be an airline pilot. I read articles in the newspapers etc, told my parents etc, wrote to BOAC, found out that I'd almost certainly need to go to Hamble etc.
When it came to exams at secondary school and time to think of what course to take at Uni, the Court Line collapsed and suddenly there was a surplus of pilots and not enough planes for them to fly. I was advised not to become a pilot since I could end up qualifying and then not get a job as there wouldn't be sufficient planes around.

I therefore ventured into manufacturing engineeering in the UK, blissfully unaware of the bad advice I had been given. I'm in my 50's now and will never fulfil my dream. I've not even had a happy career due to the decline in British manufacturing, especially in the part of the UK where I live.

Unless you are extremely talented and have the right connections to become qualified as a pilot, and have a reasonably good probability of getting a permanent pilot's job at the end of it, I'd say pick something else.
Ideally something you are good at
or something you enjoy
or something that pays very well.

Whatever you do in the daytime affects you wellbeing in your private life at home in the evenings and week-ends.
Whatever you decide to do, I hope you have a better time of life than I've had.
Wishing you the best of luck

[AdamFrisch]

When I was 19 and took my PPL I wanted to become an airline pilot badly. I was obsessed with two things - airplanes and film. I've never been very rational or logical in my decisions, but I thank higher powers that I had a moment of clarity at such a young age: I decided film, although perhaps even harder to get into, would offer more variety and be less routine and offer more opportunities. It took 10 years of working for free, eating noodle soups and carrying camera cases in the rain to be able to survive in the film business, but now it's a great career and great job that has given me the opportunity to own an aircraft and be able to fly recreationally. I am very grateful for this.

The point I suppose I'm making is - if there's anything else in this world you enjoy and can become good at, then do that. A businessman once told me "do what you love, because when you do what you love you automatically become good at it and people will eventually pay good money for that". Good advice. As long as it's not aviation - then that rule doesn't apply.:}

Find something you can love and be good at and then buy an airplane and fly for fun. Maybe you can even incorporate it in to your business. I fly to many of my jobs as often as I can. Doesn't make sense financially, but it's fun and I can deduct the cost and it adds utility.

[brn-2-fly]

Just to add my 2c's worth.

I am not far off giving up to be honest. I have pushed and pushed and tried to find something. I research who is likely to recruit, or maybe due to expand and try to get connected to the people who pull the strings but all to no avail. No airlines seem to advertise, but yet I see people getting First Officer positions with them.

I have close to 1000 hours total time, but seems to mean nothing. No one owes me a job and of course I know this, but when I see people put far less effort into finding a job and then get somewhere they want, it is soul destroying.

Anyway good luck to everyone who sticks at it! I will keep at it for a few more years, trying harder to find that elusive RHS, but there has to be a point where a new career calls.