Not often you see a QF744 flying without a winglet

[markis10]

Looks very strange, happened in JNB I believe.

VH-OJI missing a winglet QF5 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/berniep/8293979358/lightbox/)

[NewZealand2]

Parked next to her in SYD yesterday. Got me confused thinking QF still had a -300 in operation.

[Metro man]

Anyone know what the performance penalty is ? Must be considerable.

[crwkunt roll]

about 10 tonnes , and 2.5% extra fuel burn

[Fris B. Fairing]

It's my understanding that it's permissible to operate minus one winglet but not both. Can anyone offer a definitive explanation of this approved asymmetry? Most plausible I've been given is to do with nav lights.

[Capt Fathom]

Boeing probably never foresaw a scenario where you would need to remove both winglets, and therefore never did any test flying with both winglets off.

The nav lights are not on the winglets!

[Fris B. Fairing]

Capt Six Feet

Thanks for exposing the nav light theory as a furphy. So it's a simple matter of you can't do it because you don't know what the performance penalty is?

Rgds

[DirectAnywhere]

If it hasn't been test flown as such and is not in the CDL you simply can't do it. :)

[Fris B. Fairing]

I guess Boeing must have been paraphrasing Oscar Wilde:

To lose one winglet may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness, therefore we do not envisage a need to test-fly such a configuration.

[By George]

There is also a 744 D for 'Domestic', only 19 ever built and I think only used by Japan Airlines and ANA. This version has no winglets. (The 300 used to be called the 747SR for 'Short Range'). Quite common in recent years to park next to one in NRT where they seemed to live.

The height of the winglet is the same height as a towed tail-strut. How do I know this? Arrived once at LAX, empty, in a brand new 400F.(total airframe time 50 hours). Driver towed tail-strut under the wing and secured it in place. 100 tons gets loaded, ready to go and the tail-strut is removed. Driver takes same route back, but now, with the aircraft loaded, the top of the strut takes off the winglet! Flew home on the CDL. That figure of 2.5% seems about right.

Why the short range 'D' version has no winglets I don't know, I guess it's the sector length. Unusual machine the SR Jumbo's, high density seating and no centre tank. Would have been a blast empty.

[Gate_15L]

Why the short range 'D' version has no winglets...

Winglets are only good for long ranges. The weight penalty of the winglet is greater than the fuel saved over shorter flights. There was a Boeing Aero article on winglets a while ago...

:)

[B-HKD]

Boeing.com 747 Fun Facts

Quote:
How much weight does an additional 6-foot (1.8-m) wingtip extension and winglet add to the 747-400 wing? None! A weight savings of approximately 5,000 pounds (2,270 kg) was achieved in the wing by using new aluminum alloys, which offset the weight increase of the wing tip extension and winglet
Not having a shot at you Gate, more the Boeing spin.

To clear it up:

Thats comparing a 744 with winglets to a 742/743 wing.

Thus, 744D will have a slightly lighter wing than a 744 with winglets

[Going Boeing]

My understanding is the Japanese B744D's do not have the wing extensions as well as the winglets. The reason I was given was they have to operate from domestic bays that could only accommodate the B747 classic wingspan. The relatively low take-off weights and short range flights means that the reduced wing span does not cause significant penalty wrt fuel burn.

[Dragun]

Is it just me or does it look like the winglet has almost been photoshopped out in that photo? You can quite clearly see the outline of where the winglet should be where there is a demarkation of the grey on the upper surface of the wing.

Just a coincidence I guess but I can't stop seeing it!

[B-HKD]

My understanding is the Japanese B744D's do not have the wing extensions as well as the winglets. The reason I was given was they have to operate from domestic bays that could only accommodate the B747 classic wingspan. The relatively low take-off weights and short range flights means that the reduced wing span does not cause significant penalty wrt fuel burn.

Correct. The 400D has a wingspan of 59.63m.

The -400 has a wingspan of:

64.44m, Empty.
64.92m, at MTOW.

Is it just me or does it look like the winglet has almost been photoshopped out in that photo? You can quite clearly see the outline of where the winglet should be where there is a demarkation of the grey on the upper surface of the wing.

Just a coincidence I guess but I can't stop seeing it!

Looks like it at first glance. However, it is simply the curvature of the wing root/belly fairing creating a optical illusion!

Close up of what your seeing:

http://chris.web.focuswerbung.de/wp-content/gallery/Frankfurt%20Airport%202011/025%20Qantas%20Boeing%20747-400.jpg

Also, if you zoom into the picture you mentioned, the hole at the tip of the wing becomes evident where the winglet would normally be bolted onto.

[Engineer_aus]

There was a incident in JNB from a email I received earlier on. It has done a few flights now apparently since the removal of the winglet.

[Going Boeing]

There's a lot of replacement winglets available (already painted) on aircraft parked at Victorville and Marana. :ugh:

[Engineer_aus]

Very true. I did hear a story that engineers did fly to one of the "stored" aircraft to rob some parts.

Below a copy and paste from another source
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8074/8294058458_b6ef8a65ac.jpg (http://[URL)

[Captain Gidday]

There was a time, many years ago now, when one 744 had two winglets U/S: a delamination problem, if I recall.
The solution was to rob a winglet off the nearest 'whole' 744 and both 744s flew around with one winglet each for a week or two.
Strange but true.

[poonpossum]

I love the Pokemon livery. Just sayin

[StallBoy]

Qantas trying to get the best of both world's, range and lower fuel burn. Congratulations to Qantas managment. :D

[moremj2]

Reply to Capt Gidday

I am pretty sure i remember actually doing that job...out the back of 245..me lying on top of the wing with no harness, another in a cherry picker....had to shimmy back to my tool bag to get a 1 1/4 inch spanner for it....then hold on tight !

Started ripping out the LHS tip and were told to put it back together...had to go.

Ah, the good old days when oh+s were just letters in the alphabet ! :}

[scon]

Are there any issues regarding asymmetric drag inflight when you only have one off?
Just interested

[Mahatma Kote]

If you look carefully at the flickr image, especially at the 1600 largest size version there appears to be a 'ghost' winglet in the image precisely where the real winglet would be.

[Trent 972]

If you look carefully at the flickr image, especially at the 1600 largest size version there appears to be a 'ghost' winglet in the image precisely where the real winglet would be.
And in that image, there is only 1 engine on the right wing too. Spooky hey. :p

[Mahatma Kote]

And in that image, there is only 1 engine on the right wing too. Spooky hey. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Strewth! Talk about can't see the forest for the trees! (blush)

I wonder how many posters noticed any of this!?

[Shark Patrol]

Are there any issues regarding asymmetric drag inflight when you only have one off?

Flew OJI recently, Scon, and there is a 2.9% (I think) additional fuel allowance built into the fuel flight plan - although the aircraft didn't seem to burn much of this additional fuel.

Also, from a PF point of view, there seemed to be no appreciable roll during either takeoff or landing, and trim for straight and level flight was within the usual range.

[empire4]

Shark Patrol, which trim are you talking about? Aileron, rudder? Most of the decrease in lift/drag coefficient would be nulled out by rudder trim and probably felt as cross wind by the crew?

[Ngineer]

Not often you see a QF744 flying without a winglet

Has happened from time to time, but as Markis said not very often. I have only seen it happen 2 or 3 times.

[Shark Patrol]

Shark Patrol, which trim are you talking about? Aileron, rudder?

Rudder trim is used with the autopilot engaged, but there was very little required with the missing winglet.

From a flying perspective the aircraft felt no different to an aircraft with both winglets attached.

[QF22]

I think the ghost winglet referred to is actually the outline of the wing to body fairings on the fuselage.
Also pretty sure that #3 engine is obscured by #4 engine.
Cheers !