Most unusual method of instilling knowledge

[prospector]

NZ Flight Instructor Guilty Of Airborne Assault



The former director of a flight school in New Zealand, Ravindra Pal Singh, 65, has been found guilty by a local District Court judge of separately assaulting two student pilots while providing instruction to them in the air. One student testified that Singh had slapped him in the face and pushed his head into the side of the cockpit. Another student said Singh elbowed her on several flights and raised his hand above her head in a manner that was threatening. Singh argued that the accusations were levied by poorly performing students who were in the county on visas that he was not inclined help extend. The judge disagreed with Singh's account in spite of the fact that an arrest warrant has been issued for a third accuser.



The third complainant brought common assault charges and is now wanted on charges of producing forged civil aviation documents. A fourth complainant also brought common assault charges. Both of those charges were dropped by the court. Singh still faces other charges in the case and sentencing will take place after all charges have been heard by the court. Singh had operated Palmerston North flying school in New Zealand until last summer, when he shut down operations. The school catered to Indians, and Singh said it operated well until he became more stringent on visa extensions and student complaints prompted him to close down.

[Ultralights]

the quickest way to get a student to let go of the stick, when they have frozen up in fear, a backhand to the nose gets them letting go pretty quickly:ouch:

[VH-XXX]

There used to be an instructor to the east of Melbourne that students didn't enjoy flying with after 3pm because he used to get edgy as he hadn't had a beer yet. He used to get really aggressive and slap the students hands on the controls. Problem is if you don't know what to expect when learning you may not realize that he has crossed the line. Slamming the students head is a different scenario somewhat! Luckily this local guy doesn't fly any more.

[compressor stall]

It's cultural. There were a couple of Korean instructors around 14 years ago around Melbourne that had two foot long sticks slightly thicker than a broom handle.

And they were used in flight on the non local students.

Mind you, you play by our rules out here. Good to see him charged.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I flew with an instructor who used to carry a metal ruler. If you went for the wrong switch then - whack.

Made girls cry he did.

[Avgas172]

1987, bloody hot day, Short final, Rwy 12 YBCS, instructor who shall remain nameless, later to be CFI of YRED ..... Glide approach ..... Not gonna make it ..... Punched me, short scuffle ensued, landed ok! Wouldn't recommend it to anyone but I survived, and there's nothing wrong with me me me me me ....
True story
A172

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Apparently heard from TW area many moons past;

"This is Parrot One Five, twenty miles...(BANG!)" sound of E6B on back of helmet
"WRONG!"
"Um, ah, Parrot One Five, two zero miles to the east at, uh, thirty five hundred (BANG!)"
"WRONG!"
"Ah...er...Parrot One Five, two zero miles to the east at three thousand, five hundred feet, um..., inbound,....(BANG!)"
"HURRY UP!"
:}

[Tinstaafl]

Avgas..., how much later the CFI at YRED? And not the aeroclub, I hope.

[Anthill]

A 'hand-slapper' at at a previous company lost his command for this sort of crap...and so he should!:=

[spinex]

Never had it done to me, but I did threaten to swat any sticky fingers I found fiddling in my cockpit - instructor had a sneaky habit of flip flopping frequencies, moving tank selectors etc, all of which gets a bit tiresome when you're busy anyway.:hmm:

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

I did threaten to swat any sticky fingers

Firstly, there is no excuse, short of regaining control from a frozen student/pax, for physical actions in the cockpit. That means both from instructors and students.

The human psyche reacts differently when placed under stress, and announcing an impending situation, rather than inducing one, letting it unfold and observing the student reaction, then debriefing and modifying the behaviour (if required) later, can have two very different outcomes.

Might as well give "Captain" Bloggs a cornflake licence if they think they're too good for training.:rolleyes:

I have seen personally a student, who was able to competently complete 45 minutes of successive PFLs, fall apart completely ten minutes later when one came as a surprise.

[spinex]

Sensahuma transplant needed Bloggs? IMO there is a difference between putting a student under pressure and merely buggering them around, apparently for your own entertainment. I've gotten on well with most instructors, but this particular individual proved an irritant rather than a teacher and I voted with my feet.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

As is your right.

Why should I have a sense of humour about a student telling me, as PIC, how to conduct my training? I have never manhandled a student and would not tolerate a student threatening to do it to me.:cool:

Agreed, there is a difference between purpose and entertainment.

[hoggsnortrupert]

A woman a dog & a walnut tree! the more you beat them, the better they be!:E:E:E:E:E

Back on the piste! had an instructor in the early 80's use to whack your throttle hand with a ruler, during ME/IF training! speed in the old Twin Comanche got a tad low on final and he became a raving nutter, said I was trying to kill him!

H/Snort

[Avgas172]

Avgas..., how much later the CFI at YRED? And not the aeroclub, I hope.


Sorry mate as I said shall remain nameless ... Didn't post it to cause a fuss on the particular person (retired) or event.
Cheers
A172

[Centaurus]

Flew with a tough looking Vietnamese born student at Essendon many years ago. He is a 767 F/O now with a Pacific airline. Jovial bloke with very good English and good sense of humour. Became a CFI at a Fiji flying school. He also was a black belt karate expert. He told me about flying with an instructor from Melbourne Institute of Aviation, or MIA based at Essendon. Said instructor was a grade 2 with a foul mouth and was a screamer. During a X/country in a C172 the instructor was shouting non-stop. The student related to me that this grade 2 got right up his nose so much that: Quote: " I nearly considered putting him to sleep" . And with that he made an evil grin at me while making a karate chopping motion with his throttle hand.

A dirty trick story follows.
In another era Centaurus was a Lincoln instructor.
Wot's a bloody Lincoln you might say. Well its a bigger version of the wartime Lancaster four engine bomber. Designed as a single pilot type another crew member could act as copilot by sitting on a tiny fold-down stool attached to the fuselage wall. The seat was below the level of the captain's seat. That's where the instructor sat if there was one. A short instructor could barely see over the instrument panel. Needless to say I was a short QFI. Checklists weren't heard of in those days. It was all in the head and scans were usually left to right apart from the before take off checks which were standard RAAF Hatches, Harness, Hydraulics, trim etc. Mustn't forget the bomb doors lever either. .

One of the more important switches was the High/Low engine supercharger switch which had to be Low for take off otherwise you could bugger the engine on take off. From experience I knew pilots would occasionally miss this switch during their scans and with no checklist to pick it up it was potentially quite dangerous if in the wrong position (High Supercharger)

So for night flying especially (dark cockpit in those days) I would deliberately get into the cockpit before the "student" and flick the switch to "High" supercharger position in the hope the pilot would pick it up during the pre-flight scan. Dirty trick maybe but it could save lives. Word soon got around among the squadron pilots but I was not aware of that.

Was doing a night check on a former war time RAF Halifax bomber pilot called K.K. Wilson who had risked his life many times by dropping secret service agents at night by parachute into Occupied Europe. Very dangerous flying especially if the German night fighters got you on radar. KK knew about my trick and got into the aircraft before me. The bugger then taped several drawing pins pointy side out on the supercharger changeover switch and withdrew to the back of the aircraft to await my own furtive arrival. It was black as spades when I got to the cockpit and I didn't need a torch to locate the supercharger switch because I knew exactly where it was located in the middle of the instrument panel.

I found the bloody switch by feel and stuck my fingers right on to the drawing pins which drew blood and caused a great oath. From the back of the Lincoln appeared KK with a big grin and he said "that'll teach you to f**ck around, young Centaurus." Point taken in more ways than one...

[drunkensailor]

Avgas,
Brings back memories. Similar scenario from the same person. He also had the habit of grabbing your WAC, screwing into a ball and throwing in the rear seats on a navex if you dared to look at them for too long.
Didn't harm me none :}

[peterc005]

Young guys sometimes require very blunt and direct communications to get the message thru. Guess it's a combination of more hormones than maturity.

Over the years I've trained dozens of IT graduates as Programmers and have been pretty successful. There have been times when I've rolled up a magazine and hit graduates around the head.

Call it "effective communications".

[Centaurus]

There have been times when I've rolled up a magazine and hit graduates around the head.

Call it "effective communications".



On the other hand if you resort to that sort of deranged behaviour, it could be argued you yourself has lot the plot..:ugh:.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Don't worry Centaurus, it's how they do it in the far left......

Bbbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzb

[Angle of Attack]

I cant say i was a massively experienced Instructor, but I never even thought about physically touching a student ever, only taking over if the aircraft was in or heading towards an "Undesirable State" as some these days, I think most of the threatening ones just can't stand being an Instructor and should have never went there in the first place.

[john_tullamarine]

Although I opt for the softly, softly approach to instruction, a bit of well-placed direction can facilitate rapid learning.

As an ATC flying scholarship student in the 60s, my course instructor was a recently retired TAA pilot returning to ab initio instruction. His technique was to explain once, sometimes twice, and then apply a judicious touch of rolled up SMH to the back of the student's head.

As I recall we all went solo quite rapidly .. 4 hours to around 8 with one slower student taking 10 hours.

Didn't appear to destroy our delicate little egos too much. My dim recollection is that at least three ended up in airlines, another couple in the RAAF and, just to make a good story, one as a Principal Chaplain in the RAAF ..

[Exaviator]

Didn't appear to destroy our delicate little egos too much.

We weren't allowed egos in those days John, if you had one it was knocked out of you pretty quickly. :D

[Desert Flower]

Over the years I've trained dozens of IT graduates as Programmers and have been pretty successful. There have been times when I've rolled up a magazine and hit graduates around the head.

Call it "effective communications".

No, call it "assault" - because that's what it really is.

DF.

[VH-XXX]

Agreed, in the professional world, that is assault. You can't just assault someone because they are a bit spastic, everyone learns differently and the instructional technique needs to be dynamically modified for all learning types.

I know a guy that runs a forum that has some psychiatric issues however no amount of rolled up newspaper floggings will ever fix him, you'd be wasting your time. In the military (and the professional civilian world) the answer these days would be just to kick him out or sack him.

Had an Army instructor once that used to throw the duster at Privates (as in their rank). Managed to draw blood from one of their noses once. No one usually cared because they were being smart-ars-es and he recipient knew it.

[peterc005]

@VH-XXX - the last time I whacked a graduate was years ago, when we had an office in Prahran.

One Monday morning a young woman phoned and thanked me for the great time the previous Friday night at Bridie O'Reilly's (an Irish-themed bar on Chapel St) and asked if she could see me again.

This was new to me and a description she gave matched a graduate software engineer, whose desk was right outside my office.

I surmised (correctly) that he had taken some of my business cards and used them to impress young women he was attempting to pick up.

They had both gotten intoxicated and came back to the office late at night to share an impromptu intimate experience.

Later there was a rumour that my desk had been used for non-work related purposes. Apparently this young woman had substantial proportions and was less attractive to the graduate when he was sober, so he declined to offer his correct contact details.

As I walked up behind him with a rolled up magazine he was chuckling with a buddy about Friday.

Management text books don't mention this, but I think the whack over the back of his head with a rolled up magazine effectively conveyed the message that this was not appropriate behaviour with a minimum of words.

[john_tullamarine]

We weren't allowed egos in those days John, if you had one it was knocked out of you pretty quickly.

Ah, yes, good sir .. but, as I recall from observing your instructional and examining techniques in a previous life, your ego level is near perfectly adjusted for both tasks ...

he had taken some of my business cards

.. many have been caught out with that, or similar, techniques. Nonetheless, a delightful yarn .. even if the modern PC folk might not appreciate it.

[Exaviator]

Nonetheless, a delightful yarn .. even if the modern PC folk might not appreciate it.

Many a true word spoke in jest...

Have a Happy & Healthy New Year John :D

[Oakape]

The thing is that in most cases we aren't talking about the military or the airlines, or even high school. The instructor generally doesn't have the power over the student that some seem to think they have & that some students seem to be willing to give them. I belive that this sort of crap also goes on in the music lesson business as well. Who knows where else. Maybe it is a hangover from the only learning environment that most people have experienced, i.e. school.

What people need to remember is that we are talking about someone walking in & putting down their hard earned dollars for a service. The flying school & ALL it's staff should be bending over backwards to keep the 'customer' happy, so that they can keep the ongoing business & also get any referrals that the customer might be able & willing to give.

The trouble is that most students seem to forget that they are the consumer & therefore have the power to take their business, money & word of mouth advertising elsewhere.

Business must be good if flying schools can afford to 'tick off' customers with this sort of behaviour. That being said, most tradespeople seem to operate the same way these days.

[Anthill]

Over the years I've trained dozens of IT graduates as Programmers and have been
pretty successful. There have been times when I've rolled up a magazine and hit
graduates around the head.

Call it "effective communications".

Some years ago in WA the captain was over in the terminal between sectors. I sat in the aeroplane with about 20 mins to ETD. I had done the walk-around and the pre-flight had been completed. The TO data card had been filled and all that was required was the pax and the captain.

The captain came to the aircraft and whacked me in the back of the head with a rolled up magazine saying "come on slacker, stop staring out the window". I told the captain that hitting me with a rolled up magazine was offensive and that she was not to do it again. The captain then said "I am the captain and I'll hit you as often as I like" whilst proceeding to hit me repeatedly with said rolled up magazine. I then unfastened my harness, slid me seat back reached over and grabbed her magazine and threw it about half-way down the cabin of the areoplane.

She never disrespected me (to my face) again.

[john_tullamarine]

The flying school & ALL it's staff should be bending over backwards to keep the 'customer' happy, so that they can keep the ongoing business & also get any referrals that the customer might be able & willing to give.

Clearly there is a mix of tongue-in-cheek humour and offended sensibilities throughout this thread.

Unfortunately, some activities have the potential for serious and adverse consequences and the buck-stops-here scenario applies. Piloting, I suggest, is one such and much of today's aviation problems show a correlation with spoon feeding PC training attitudes. Other fields which come to mind include surgery and matters submariner and other critical military activities.

While the whack-over-the-back-of-the-head approach has had its day - I might add I have never used that sort of technique myself - sometimes the poorer achiever needs some direction.

I am probably a lot more generous and patient with my instructing time and enthusiasm than many but, at the end of the day, some folks just do not suit some occupations for whatever reason and need to be shown the door.

In my case, I have been lucky, I guess, in that I have had to scrub very few. Two of the more notable (including an experienced F28 captain upgrading to the 732 - he ought never to have been in command of a dinky trike), I referred to Exaviator for their final scrub rides.

[remoak]

The progenitor of this thread was the activities of a certain instructor over here in the Shaky Isles. This gentleman dispensed punishment in what he thought was a culturally appropriate way... if you live in India! It doesn't work like that any more over here, of course, the PC stormtroopers having had their day. Not that I think it's a good thing to hit students, but because sometimes it is necessary to physically intervene with the odd individual. Sometimes it works, too.

For interest, this is the same gentleman that force-landed a Partenavia full of students after having run out of fuel... one wonders why the CAA didn't shut him down then... more on that here (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/297609-taic-report-p68-double-engine-failure-hawkes-bay.html)

[Anthill]

If you are a 'hand-slapper', 'shoulder puncher' or whatever then are are also an inarticulate semi-simian who is undeserving of your position.

[kangaroota]

Did a flight once over some real tiger country, the instructor asked me where I'd go if I had an engine failure. I had a look around and told him there was nowhere to go. "Why then" he asked "did you bring me here?"
A valuable lesson never forgotten.

[Capt Claret]

If you are a 'hand-slapper', 'shoulder puncher' or whatever then are are also an inarticulate semi-simian who is undeserving of your position.

Not necessarily so Anthill.

I know of an F/O who was smacked on the back of his hand, after he unilaterally decided, as PF part way through a hand flown SID, to depart from SOP and do some switching that was the job of the PNF.

When he said, "I'll get that for you" (not that the PIC was overloaded mind you), the PIC said, "No, that's my job". He ignored the PIC and made to make the switch selection.

Much like one disciplines a child, a light smack on the back of his hand was needed because he was intent on his departure from the SOPs, not doing what was expected or as instructed, when there was no need or imperative to depart from SOP.

[Angle of Attack]

Capt Claret,

A ****load of captains also do that too, the last one I slapped around the hand ignored it. Better way is to turn off the flight director and the other can do whatever they like to the MCP because it aint gonna matter! I do it all the time.
Mostmof them get freaked out without a FD though lol!:ok:

[SgtBundy]

I did my first flying at an AIRTC gliding camp. I got called at the last minute (Easter sunday) to come to the camp which required a 15 hour bus ride and hitching a lift with one of the instructors. Because of that I missed the first few nights of theory instruction and was rushed through the first 3 flights when I got there. They consisted mainly of some quick intro and a few fun spins and manoeuvres.

The next flight I was on I got a new instructor. His first words: "If you don't do this right, we are going to crash" (spin recovery). As a naive 15 year old that put the wind up me. It was the only flight in ten that week the tow plane threatened to dump the line on me because I was so nervous and out of position. Compare that to my first three flights I got complemented on how well I was holding position for a first timer.

First spin in I was sweating and struggling to do things smoothly. I could do nothing right, any excess stick movement was corrected by the instructor yanking his control such that it smacked my control into my leg. Same went for the rudder if I was too stampy there, he would kick it back at me. I think there was some taps to the back of the head as well (not sure, it was all a blur but it felt like it). The rest of the lesson was gruff and assumed a lot about theory I had not yet had a chance to catch up on which made me even more off balance.

My view, the pressure was unnecessary and actually took focus off my ability to learn - I get the intent, but it just did not work on me. I found I preferred one of the older instructors who explained things well, but tolerated nothing outside what he was asking me to do. Nothing physical, just stern corrections when wrong and actually some compliments when I got things right.

[Anthill]

Oh really Claret? Would the aeroplane have crashed? You belittled and assulted the FO because he did some switching for him/her self?

In doing so you have comprimised your leadership role totally. That pilot would now resent you. In the big scheme of things you lowered yourself to the rank of 'hand slapper' over some switching? Mate, you're an idiot.

[remoak]

If you are a 'hand-slapper', 'shoulder puncher' or whatever then are are also an inarticulate semi-simian who is undeserving of your position.

Leaving aside the dodgy grammar and oxymorons, you are just plain wrong.

Example: had a guy training in the sim who was having difficulty with, believe it or not, raw data straight-and-level flight. I was gently trying to explain what he needed to do, but he was completely maxed out and simply wasn't hearing me. My voice got progressively louder and more commanding, but no response. In the end I had to slap his wrist to get his attention, and then pointed at the trim wheel which was all he needed to use to fix the problem.

Another example: had a student who I inherited from another instructor, who wanted to do spinning. Asked if he had been briefed, yes he had. Up to 5000', I put the aircraft in an incipient spin and told him to recover. He didn't. Aircraft enters full spin. Told him to recover again... he didn't. Five turns later, he has the ailerons locked at full deflection and the rudder held in the wrong way. it took a fire extinguisher across his wrist to get him to let go.

Yes, I suppose I could have just continued talking to him until we hit the ground, but physical intervention just seemed to work better... not PC though...

[Anthill]

Remoak.. No mate, YOU are the one who is just plain in the wrong. This has nothing what so ever to do with being PC. I am actually a very PC incorrect person.

Oh, I see you are another one of the grammar police. Whoop-de-frickin'-do! :cool:


I was gently trying to explain what he needed to do, but he was completely maxed
out and simply wasn't hearing me. My voice got progressively louder and more
commanding, but no response.

You failed to recognise cognitive overload, that's what happend. So you yelled at the student and increased the stress levels hoping to inprove performance? Then you smacked him? What??? Did you really expect a different outcome other than a 'frozen' student?? (This reminds me of people who expect foreigners to unstand English better if you yell at them). Fark me dead...that is about the least professional response I could imagine on your part. As an instructor, you lack the requisite competancies.

I have NEVER had to resort to this sort of thing in the sim (or elsewhere). My company use me a trouble shooter for strugglers and a calm reasoned approach works evry time. Who do you work for again?

What ever they are paying you in your 'training' role you certainly don't deserve it. Aside from the ineffectivness of you actions, you also lack awareness that your actions could result in a workplace harrassment complaint.

[Centaurus]

Reminds me of my first few flights learning to fly in a Tiger Moth at Kingsford Smith Flying School, Bankstown, in 1951. No electric intercom - just a Gosport Tube with my first instructors shouting as hard as they could over the noise of the engine. First trip waste of time as instructor was former Polish Spitfire pilot Stan Birtus whose gutteral accent was impossible to understand. Next week same bloke. Waste of time and my precious money. Third week another European heavily accented "instructor"- Jan Kingma; I think Dutch wartime background. Again I understood very little of what he was shouting down the Gosport Tube. More dough down the drain.
Then an Australian instructor with big black moustache for 4th week. Tas Dalton was his name. He said hardly a word and seemed bored stiff. That was 45 minutes wasted and I was beginning to despair as my savings was rapidly depleting.

Then on 5 May 1951 in Tiger Moth VH-AUO, I struck pure gold in the form of Bill Burns - former RAAF pilot and then a Qantas flight safety manager who instructed for the love of it in his spare time. The perfect instructor. Kindly, sympathetic and his instruction set me on my way to a successful flying career. Thanks Bill - I will always owe you. He sent me solo after a couple of trips and I never looked back. Soon joined the RAAF where I had several first class instructors and a couple of real screamers. Same as the airlines... Then ran into some lousy check captains in the airlines who should never have held their positions. Of course, seniority ruled as it does now; hence some of the undesirables that still exist to this day in the world of airline checking and training..

There is an old saying as true today as it was 60 years ago. "People may not remember what you did or what you said. But they will always remember how you made them feel"

[remoak]

Geez Anthill get over yourself mate... you seem to be stuck in some instructional backwater.

You failed to recognise cognitive overload, that's what happend. So you yelled at the student and increased the stress levels hoping to inprove performance? Then you smacked him?

Wrong again. Try reading before you get all uppity. Nobody is shouting. Nobody is "smacking". It's a technique from a large British airline, known for their high training standards. All I was doing was gradually increasing the level of aural input to find his cognitive threshold. If that doesn't work, a simple tap on the hand does. Sure, you could stop the sim, but if you do that you lose the immediate value of the training exercise.

Actually, the way you launched into a full-on personal attack when challenged tells me all I need to know about your own "competencies".

And a harassment suit? Grow up! :hmm:

[Anthill]

I suggest that you read your company's Workplace Harrassment policies mate because you are clueless. Continue at your own risk.




My voice got progressively louder and more commanding, but no response. In the end I had to slap his wrist to get his attention,


You said it all yourself.

There's no point in further trying to defend your actions and attitudes, they don't belong in contemporary operations.

[CoodaShooda]

I've come to think of "contemporary" as meaning "we've found newer and better ways to achieve poorer outcomes with greater cost and effort".

But that's just me. :E

[Mach E Avelli]

I will start with a disclaimer: I do not condone any form of physical violence either in the cockpit or elsewhere - unless it is in self defence. That said, if someone deliberately whacked me in the head with a newspaper in the cockpit I would immediately whack them back, but harder - unless they were too big to take on, or as was Antill's experience, a woman. Cowardice is sometimes the better part of valour and that is what lawyers are for. Women are not exempt from that avenue. If an altercation happens in the cockpit, the only smart thing to do after deciding whether to hit back or go for the lawyers would be to immediately walk off the job; ground the aircraft where it is. Doing anything else is a safety issue and diminishes any redress you may have.

However, in some cultures it seems that the only way an instructor or interrogator can gain any control or information is by resorting to physical intimidation. In such cultures they would laugh at our touchy-feely ways.
A funny true story. A Canadian Twin Otter pilot who was infamous for his short fuse had an ambition to fly the heavy iron. He finally cracked a go with a B 747 cargo operator. During simulator his ex RCAF instructor pilot was shouting and screaming at this pilot's lack of progress. Eventually he shouted once too loud, screamed once too often. Said pilot quietly got out of the seat and said something to the effect of " you can't talk to me like that" then decked the instructor. End of airline career, but rather satisfying at the time, I imagine.

[kellykelpie]

Have to agree with Antill here - yelling or hitting a student is totally out of order and unnecessary.

As for the "joke" about hitting dogs and women on page one - grow up (whoever you are).

[Captain Sand Dune]

I went through RAAF pilots course in the mid 80s. Looking back on it now I reckon about 1/3 of the flying instructional staff considered instructional flying a punishment posting and took it out on their students. Plenty of yelling, screaming, sarcasm etc going on. Didn’t hear of any biffo, although a particular instructor who was just leaving 1FTS as we arrived had the reputation of using “contact counselling” in the aircraft. Went on to become a chief of the Air Force as I recall.
Nowadays I reckon the RAAF does a pretty good job of selecting people for instructors course. Potential “screamers” don’t seem to last too long in the instructional field.
I have had cause to yell at students a couple of times in the last 17 years of instructing, but only coz I thought they were trying to kill me. I reckon if one ever got that frustrated with a student that physical violence is being contemplated, knock it off and go home. You’re an aircraft captain first and foremost, and an instructor second.
The captain came to the aircraft and whacked me in the back of the head with a rolled up magazine saying "come on slacker, stop staring out the window". I told the captain that hitting me with a rolled up magazine was offensive and that she was not to do it again. The captain then said "I am the captain and I'll hit you as often as I like" whilst proceeding to hit me repeatedly with said rolled up magazine. I then unfastened my harness, slid me seat back reached over and grabbed her magazine and threw it about half-way down the cabin of the aeroplane.

She never disrespected me (to my face) again.
Good one! Of course these days you would have got done for being a mysogynistic co-pilot for grabbing her magazine off her in such chauvanistic manner!

[remoak]

Anthill

I have read my company's workplace harassment policy and it has nothing to say on the subject we are discussing. Maybe it's got something to do with the fact that I don't live or work in Australia (thank god). The key to any workplace harassment policy is the appropriate-ness and degree of the behaviour in question. Frankly, if you want to work in this industry you need to grow a pair rather than cowering in the PC corner in fear of what somebody might do if you happen to raise your voice or brush against them in a confined space.

Please note, all those that love to jump to conclusions, that nobody is condoning physical violence or intimidation. What I am talking about is not the same thing. Touching someone, per se, is not an act of violence. It is the intent that matters (in civilised countries, at any rate).

The way you have responded to me would be considered, in your workplace, harassment - however I note that you are more than happy to jump in with your personal assault, which indicates your true level of professionalism.

If you can't even understand that raising the level, timbre and inflection of one's voice does not equate to shouting, or that some forms physical contact are not only permissible, but completely appropriate in some circumstances in the flight deck, then you are sadly out of touch with modern techniques.

Or maybe Australia is ten years behind the times when it comes to this stuff... as is often the case in aviation over there.

[Sunfish]

remoak:


I have read my company's workplace harassment policy and it has nothing to say on the subject we are discussing. Maybe it's got something to do with the fact that I don't live or work in Australia (thank god). The key to any workplace harassment policy is the appropriate-ness and degree of the behaviour in question. Frankly, if you want to work in this industry you need to grow a pair rather than cowering in the PC corner in fear of what somebody might do if you happen to raise your voice or brush against them in a confined space.

Please note, all those that love to jump to conclusions, that nobody is condoning physical violence or intimidation. What I am talking about is not the same thing. Touching someone, per se, is not an act of violence. It is the intent that matters (in civilised countries, at any rate).

The way you have responded to me would be considered, in your workplace, harassment - however I note that you are more than happy to jump in with your personal assault, which indicates your true level of professionalism.

If you can't even understand that raising the level, timbre and inflection of one's voice does not equate to shouting, or that some forms physical contact are not only permissible, but completely appropriate in some circumstances in the flight deck, then you are sadly out of touch with modern techniques.

Or maybe Australia is ten years behind the times when it comes to this stuff... as is often the case in aviation over there.

Furthermore it is you who are out of touch.

1. If you so much as an instructor lay a finger on a recruit/trainee in the ADF without their permission you are asking to be charged and that has been the case since at least as early as 1968. The let out for that is a verbal statement to the effect that you are doing so for instructional purposes as in: "I will now adjust your webbing for you to demonstrate the correct fitting, etc. etc."

Perhaps the RAAF is allowed an exemption from this regulation?

2. Screaming and yelling and prodding is not an effective form of communication or getting peoples attention at all. I've been racing yachts for some Fifty years and I've seen all sorts of yellers and screamers and prodders in some extremely dangerous and hair raising situations as they attempt to get others to do their bidding. It rarely works. Quite often a student/inexperienced person will simply freeze under the tirade and make the situation worse, especially if they are trying to coordinate their actions with others or problem solve or learn an unfamiliar routine.

The best I've sailed with are almost silent. When they do open their mouths, they are worth listening to as they drop pearls of wisdom for the rest of us. The greats, like the late Jock Sturrock, could not only get his message across cogently and simply but leave you splitting your sides laughing as well.

To put that another way, raising your voice, let alone prodding or smacking, is a sign of immaturity and/or stupidity in an instructor.

3. If I want to raise a students stress level, which I agree is sometimes necessary and relevent, there are infinitely subtler ways of doing it which I won't bother to go into here, except to say that it can be done in a conversational tone without the student even noticing he is being loaded up. I am sure qualified and experienced aviation instructors are well aware of this.

To put that another way and demonstrate the complete absurdity of your statement the words of Professor Angelou are relevent, as quoted by Centaurus:

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - the only "lesson" a screamer and a prodder teaches is that he/she is a know nothing prick.

TID EDIT: How about we keep the name calling out of it and keep the thread civilised for once?

[Mach E Avelli]

Invariably the skippers that scream and shout are those who are at a stage beyond their own ability or confidence to handle a situation. Applies equally to aircraft and boats.
Last year I did a BFR to renew my recreation pilot certificate. The instructor kept up a continuous tirade and was forever grabbing the controls. Now, I may be rough, but I am not suicidal. How a raw student would ever learn anything from this character I don't know.
The effectiveness of typical military technique that breaks a recruit down so that he can be built up into a tough but obedient soldier is one for the psychobabble experts to debate. It is when instructors come from a military environment into civilian operations that we sometimes see a carry-over of behaviour not acceptable in their new roles. Hence the guy who found himself laid out on the simulator floor by a student who did break down, but not in a way that the instructor envisaged.

[remoak]

Sunfish

If you so much as an instructor lay a finger on a recruit/trainee in the ADF without their permission you are asking to be charged

Maybe in Australia, but most definitely not in the Armed Forces in, say, the UK, the US, or even NZ. I have relatives in all three and they had a pretty good laugh at your assertion. You don't even understand the point of the training. Once again, Australia leads the way... world leader in PC...:ugh:

Screaming and yelling and prodding is not an effective form of communication or getting peoples attention at all.

Good, we are in agreement, that's exactly what I said.

To put that another way, raising your voice, let alone prodding or smacking, is a sign of immaturity and/or stupidity in an instructor.

Whilst I agree about the "smacking" the use of one's voice in these situation s is an acquired art that you clearly haven't mastered. Read what I actually wrote. Correct use of the voice is the hallmark of a good instructor

Racing yachts etc... watching the leading America's cup boats in action via all the on-board cameras reveals that they are anything but a silent environment. Lots of shouting going on.

I've seen all sorts of yellers and screamers

Yes... BUT THAT ISN'T WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!

If I want to raise a students stress level, which I agree is sometimes necessary and relevent

I never go out to raise a student's stress level... just to get their attention. Statements like that confirm to me that you have no experience at all of airline-level instruction.

The Angelou quote - very touchy-feely I'm sure, but complete nonsense in the training environment. I can remember many things that I have learned over the years, but I have no idea how I was feeling at the time, and mostly can't recall who the instructor was either... but the lesson remains.

As with Anthill, your last statement tells me all I need to know about your level of professionalism and true approach to relationships. Perhaps if you had spent less time pursuing the corporate dream, and more time becoming a professional pilot, you would have a better idea about this stuff.

[T28D]

Remoak Racing yachts etc... watching the leading America's cup boats in action via all the on-board cameras reveals that they are anything but a silent environment. Lots of shouting going on.

There is a reason for everything, racing big fast yachts to windward creates significant wind noise from apparent wind which means the communication from the Afterguard forward is difficult and shouting is used to overcome the battle with the wind.

[Captain Dart]

A certain very senior individual in CASA wasn't known as 'The Screaming Skull' in his previous life because of his effective and easy going approach to training, that's for sure.

[Sunfish]

Remoak , I don't have "relatives in" the armed forces. I've commanded recruit training platoons myself and if your relatives resort to brutal and aggressive training methods that explains a lot about their lack of battlefield effectiveness.......or perhaps you have been watching too many videos.

The "tough guy" approach has been passé for at least Fifty years. If we want to raise stress levels, teach lessons, etc. , There are far more effective and subtle methods.

I will not work with screamers and prodders and if by chance I ever encounter one in aviation, I will either avoid them or arrange their dismissal if possible. There is NO NEED for such behaviour.

To restate that: screaming and prodding is an admission of total failure as an instructor.

[Centaurus]

It is when instructors come from a military environment into civilian operations that we sometimes see a carry-over of behaviour not acceptable in their new roles.

As former RAAF pupil pilot and later QFI (admittedly 60 years ago), I met far more good flying instructors than the screaming skulls. Probably a similar split exist in the airline and general aviation industry today. It is a personality defect that seems to come to the fore when some pilots become instructors either by airline seniority - or in general aviation, when they have the money to graduate as a grade 3 instructor.

In the RAAF, many years passed before I realised it was often difficult for CFS supervisors to pick the potential screaming skulls when they were undergoing the flying instructors course at the RAAF Central Flying School where instructors were trained. But as far as I was aware in my RAAF service it was never a military policy to jump into a student with harsh words or deliberately rip into slow students. I think people got that idea from the John Wayne he-man type American movies about pilots.

To shout and rave at students is a personality defect in some instructors whether they be former military or civilian. You won't change that type of personality. The worst kind is the friendly social airline captain off duty who turns into a screamer once he dons his four bars and enters the flight deck. They can catch you off guard and believe me I have experienced a few of those in my flying career. Similar in fact to the personality type who is affable when sober but turns into an unpredictable bastard with one or two beers under his belt.

When I first started my flying training at RAAF Point Cook circa 1951, our CO was one of the most charming old-school officer and gentleman type of person you would ever meet. He had been shot down by the Japs while flying his Catalina from Rabaul shortly after Pearl Harbour and spent the remainder of the war as a POW. After being repatriated he was eventually appointed as CO of No 1 FTS Point Cook

Under his command at Point Cook were about 15 instructors including three who were real bastards known for their propensity to scream at students and scrub them. No names - no pack drill. A few years ago I visited this old CO (Wing Commander Paul Mezler) at his Sydney home and naturally talk turned to the 1950's when he was CO of No 1 RAAF Flying Training School at Point Cook.

When I told him how we students were terrified of the three screamers among his team of flying instructors, he was genuinely horrified that this sort of behaviour went on under his command and that he was never aware of it. If only someone had spoken up he would have removed these three instructors. But in his rareified position as CO he was called "Sir" by his staff and it was considered out of the question for students to complain about his instructors. Without that "intelligence", he could not act and so he lived in another world of Officers Mess social life, week-end tennis playing, Dining-In nights and flag waving parades and so on.

He never knew the truth about the three screaming Amigos. Incidently, one became a DCA Examiner for Airmen after leaving the RAAF and the other two joined Trans Australia Airlines as airline pilots.

[Avgas172]

This thread is becoming seriously boring :mad:
Lets all get on with the important things in our life and especially our flying.
cheers
A172

[Arnold E]

This thread is becoming seriously boring

Dont read it then, its not that hard.:ugh::ugh:

[Avgas172]

Dont read it then, its not that hard
Ah yes my good man but unless one reads the thread one will not know if the infantile carry on of some of the participants shall become boring!
At your rather advanced age one would have thought you would have been more enlightened ... further you may have noticed that I was one of the participants earlier. :E

[Shrikered]

If I may, I'd like to return to an earlier post.
I've been trying to figure out when RAF and Commonwealth air forces began using written checklists - not just memorized "drills." So, when and where was the following anecdote? Do you recall when checklists came into use:
In principle
For real - people actually used them?
thanks!

A dirty trick story follows.
In another era Centaurus was a Lincoln instructor.
Wot's a bloody Lincoln you might say. Well its a bigger version of the wartime Lancaster four engine bomber. Designed as a single pilot type another crew member could act as copilot by sitting on a tiny fold-down stool attached to the fuselage wall. The seat was below the level of the captain's seat. That's where the instructor sat if there was one. A short instructor could barely see over the instrument panel. Needless to say I was a short QFI. Checklists weren't heard of in those days. It was all in the head and scans were usually left to right apart from the before take off checks which were standard RAAF Hatches, Harness, Hydraulics, trim etc. Mustn't forget the bomb doors lever either. .

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Wasn't it a WWII Boeing, (maybe the 17), that a senior test pilot buried himself on, prompting the wide intoduction of proper checklist usage?:confused:

[Shrikered]

Wasn't it a WWII Boeing, (maybe the 17), that a senior test pilot buried himself on, prompting the wide intoduction of proper checklist usage?


That's the best-known story. The crash happened in 1935, to the 299 prototype. It's a great story. But it did not lead immediately to use of checklists. Checklists actually were in use earlier e.g. by Lindbergh; and they did not get used much outside the USAAF (and perhaps the US Navy - not as clear) until many years later. That timing is what I'm trying to track down.

Centaurus sent me a good PM on use in the RAAF, or rather non-use.

[remoak]

Sunfish

Why is that you are so utterly incapable of reading a post before responding to it?

and if your relatives resort to brutal and aggressive training methods that explains a lot about their lack of battlefield effectiveness

First off, I never suggested that any of the people I know in the forces did any such thing. One of them is a US Marine and he was telling me over a beer this evening that his own training, carried out two years ago, consisted of essentially one long scream from his DIs that went on for six weeks. It is absolutely standard in the US armed forces and it is in the UK and NZ too. The only mitigation is that if you appear to know what you are doing and pay attention, you tend to get left alone more. As far as battlefield effectiveness goes, three of his DIs were decorated Gulf and Afghanistan vets with an average of four tours each. What is your combat experience exactly?

Secondly, you clearly have a marked propensity to play the man and not the ball. This could actually be an interesting discussion if you and your mate Anthill would actually address the points that I raise, as I have yours, and leave out the personal stuff. That, by the way, is why I am 99% sure the pair of you are full of it - you won't address the argument and instead go for the personal attack. Immature and extremely unprofessional.

[Sunfish]

Remoak have you ever instructed anyone?

As for traininng recruits, I am aware of the US Marine efforts and their reasoning.

In Australia we do it differently and in my view produce a better product. Neither I nor my staff ever screamed at recruits let alone laid a finger on them,

When one member of a platoon failed to arrive on parade wearing his issue windproof jacket as ordered on a freezing Puckapunyal morning, I simply commented on this to my Sergeant in the hearing of recruits. My sergeant simply then ordered everyone else to take off their jackets. Message understood. It's amazing how fast collective responsibility will instill a desire to help your fellow sufferer, and one doesnt have to even raise your voice to do it.

In first appointment and officer training we went to some length to weed out the screamers, bullies and panic merchants. We gave them "leadership " exercises where they were tasked with doing something with a squad or platoon - without knowing that the platoon had been briefed to foul up and misinterpret every command and totally frustrate the candidate to see what would happen.

We sent them on long marches with the promise of a truck with food and a ride back at the end of it. The truck never arrives and we watch what happens.

They sat in ambushes all night with leeches crawling over them waiting for an "enemy" who was never going to appear.

We did, and still do, all sorts of things to instill the message of the need for obedience, shared responsibility for safety and your mates. We tested the limits of their intergrity, self control, endurance and intelligence and we didn't need to do it by screaming, threatening and bullying. We didn't want any of our students to become screamers and bullies either, partly for their own preservation.

In my own case I narrowly avoided killing someone after conducting a range practice because I stupidly allowed a defective weapon to be taken off the range without checking it. Well it didn't fire - until it did. And I will carry the memory of the CO's disproving look to my grave.

You see Remoak, most people are their own worst critics, and they don't need some idiot rapping their knuckles or shouting at them in the cockpit to understand.

[Trojan1981]

That said Sunfish, plenty of dead-ground counselling still occurs in the regular bns... regardless of rank. This often how senior screamers are corrected by their subordinates.
In the Army the vast majority of incidents end there. The RAAF, however, is largely rear-echelon based and most incidents do not go unpunished.

I don't condone any sort any sort of violence in the cockpit unless it's necessary to prevent the crew from becoming a smoking hole - certainly not for low risk errors in procedure. It's pointless and counter-productive in training.

I have heard stories of an instructor at Camden you uses a rolled up newspaper on ab initio students. While I found him generally brusk (but all bluster really) he never did try the newspaper trick on me. Wouldn't want to either, as he'd lose more than my business.

[Sunfish]

Yup. trojan, dead ground counselling occurs and plenty of officers have been told by their Sergeants to apply for a transfer before they become a casualty. The CO has almost always been briefed by the RSM in these cases and will approve it.

The point I was trying to make to Remoak is that the screaming yelling Hoo hah is unnecessary and often counter productive if you want to produce thinking students with high lelvels of initiative and creativity - something the U.S. Marines are not known for producing (they have other virtues). Even some US Army Officers are fed up with the U.S. marine malarkey.

[Checkboard]

As for the "joke" about hitting dogs and women on page one - grow up (whoever you are).
If you are referring to the following:
A woman a dog & a walnut tree! the more you beat them, the better they be!
... perhaps you should learn to recognise an historical proverb. :suspect:
]I have redde, I know not where, these verses. A woman, an asse, and a walnut tree, Bring the more fruit the more beaten they bee. (1581) (http://www.answers.com/topic/a-woman-a-dog-and-a-walnut-tree-the-more-you-beat-them-the-better-they-be)

When one member of a platoon failed to arrive on parade wearing his issue windproof jacket as ordered on a freezing Puckapunyal morning, I simply commented on this to my Sergeant in the hearing of recruits. My sergeant simply then ordered everyone else to take off their jackets. Message understood.

Bloody stupid military!
Option 1: Tell guy he is an idiot, and to go get his jacket. Everyone is then properly dressed, guy knows he made a mistake.

Option 2: Tell guy he is an idiot, punish him with pushups or whatever, leave him without jacket. Guy hates you, and perhaps suffers physical sickness (that's why he needs a jacket after all!)

Option 3: Tell everyone on a freezing day to take off their jackets. Everyone hates you. MUCH higher chance of physical sickness (as you now have everyone without jackets). Original guy is ostracised, and perhaps personally attacked later. Group morale is shattered, officer is hated for being an idiot and several go sick. Bastardisation at its best. :rolleyes:

[remoak]

Sunfish

Remoak have you ever instructed anyone? Airline check and training for 15 years in a large (90+ hulls) airline. Have you ever instructed in the airline environment?

The point I was trying to make to Remoak is that the screaming yelling Hoo hah is unnecessaryAnd if you had read what I have posted before replying you would know that I agree with you. The extreme stuff never works. The measured approach does.

[Sunfish]

Remoak:

Airline check and training for 15 years in a large (90+ hulls) airline. Have you ever instructed in the airline environment?

I wouldn't even want to be a student in an airline environment if there were screamers and prodders around.

Checkers:

Bloody stupid military!
Option 1: Tell guy he is an idiot, and to go get his jacket. Everyone is then properly dressed, guy knows he made a mistake.

Option 2: Tell guy he is an idiot, punish him with pushups or whatever, leave him without jacket. Guy hates you, and perhaps suffers physical sickness (that's why he needs a jacket after all!)

Option 3: Tell everyone on a freezing day to take off their jackets. Everyone hates you. MUCH higher chance of physical sickness (as you now have everyone without jackets). Original guy is ostracised, and perhaps personally attacked later. Group morale is shattered, officer is hated for being an idiot and several go sick. Bastardisation at its best.

You poor soul, you have entirely missed the point.

The purpose of the exercise I described is not "bastardisation" by a sadist, nor the instilling of "mindless obedience" as it perhaps is with the methods used by the U.S. Marines and least of all the attainment of any sort of sartorial parade ground splendour.

It is simply to get people to realise that their very lives will one day depend on the action, or inaction, of their fellow soldiers and we first of all must teach them to care for what happens to each other to the smallest detail before it is possible to teach them anything else.

We build situations where if one fails, then everybody fails and wears the consequences of group failure. Modern man is very attached to their individualism and independence of thought, deed and word. The approach taken at least in the ADF when I was a minor part of it, was to do the minimum necessary to instill the required group ethos for survival - "mateship", "Team spirit", call it what you will, without destroying initiative and the capacity for original thought and action.

It takes about Two weeks of the hell we created for them before even the slowest, criminal, insolent Bogan suddenly realises that all difficulties vanish overnight if they help and look out for each other. In other words, the penny drops. When our man forgets his jacket, someone reminds him. When he helps another clean his rifle, someone cleans his gear for him.

After that basic lesson is learned, it is possible to instruct in the safe handling, usage and application of weapons and high explosive without too much fear that some idiot is going to blow you and everyone else to kingdom come because they weren't listening or couldn't be bothered following instructions.

Of course there are exceptions, some of us termed them "warrior poets" or "plastic Rambos" who have a romantic idea of what they shoulld be allowed to do. They get chucked out as soon as they are detected. We had one end up naked, with a loaded rifle, crying his eyes out one night on a barracks roof before the unit doctor talked him down.

And I say again, all this can be done without screaming and bullying.

Sorry for being verbose. I havent described this to anyone ever.

P.S. Yes, they do hate you at the time, but only until the penny drops about what you are trying to teach them.

[Shagpile]

The problem is when group punishment carries on to higher level work, and responsible adults aren't allowed to go have a quiet beer because drinking is banned because some soldier somewhere got too pissed.

Yep maybe first few weeks of rookies that's correct, but I'm a massive fan of individual responsibility and not group punishing a bunch of professional adults for one idiots action.

[Sunfish]

Shaggy, so am I.

Don't tell me the "Two cans, per day, perhaps." rule is gone?

[Trojan1981]

Sunfish,

all good points. The two-cans rule is dead - apparently members are not responsible enough to drink at all, so say the f'cking REMFs :ugh:

[Captain Sand Dune]

so say the f'cking REMFs
No mate......you can thank our pollies who react to hysterical media reporting. That and the increasing hoardes of senior officers keen to climb the greasy pole of promotion.

[remoak]

Sunfish

I wouldn't even want to be a student in an airline environment if there were screamers and prodders around.

Me neither.

Now that I understand your experience level, I can see why you say the things you do. To summarise:

Airline training experience - nil
Airline experience of any sort - nil
Military combat experience - nil
Military experience of any sort - minimal (sounds like the Aussie version of Territorials).
Pilot training experience - possible but I doubt it on a PPL.

So if it's all the same to you, I'll stick with the proven methodologies of successful airlines, and the most successful military of our time. A military several orders of magnitude more capable and experienced than the ADF...

Nice chatting...

[T28D]

remoak well said, someone had to draw theline in the sand.

[Trojan1981]

So if it's all the same to you, I'll stick with the proven methodologies of successful airlines, and the most successful military of our time. A military several orders of magnitude more capable and experienced than the ADF..

Remoak, I think you'll find that many of those operationally-experienced aircrew in the ADF have obtained their experience while working as part of a foreign force. Training methodologies and doctrine are very similar throughout the western world. In fact Australian aircrew can be (and are) trained in Oz, Canada, the UK and the US - all graduating with the same required standards. The only force really left out in the cold is NZ.

I won't comment on the airlines' methodology as I am not, and hopefully will never be, an airline pilot. They are hardly the tip of the spear when it comes to training development as they are cost driven, reactive and work in a risk-averse, over-regulated environment. Peoples lives (particularly on the ground) rarely depend on the arrival of an airliner. Different game, different rules.

[Sunfish]

Thank you for the vicious Ad Hominem attack Remoak, I'm sure the people you have instructed would be quite familiar with it's style.

I say again; there is no need for shouting, bullying (both physical and social), prodding and other forms of the nastiness you demonstrate in any training organisation. If I see any of it, I always move to correct it.

[Mach E Avelli]

So, summing up. We are all agreed that there is no place in flying training for shouting, screaming and physical abuse. However some of us believe that certain recalcitrants may need to be taken down a peg by using a bit of military-style psychology and peer pressure. In extremis, some measure of humiliation may be in order.
Others defend the softly-softly mustn't damage the poor little darlings approach. Their kids are probably the screaming, tantrum-tossing brats in the supermarket that never get proper disclpline and give the rest of us the sh!ts.

[Sunfish]

Mach, I agree with you, but what I say is that it is possible to apply peer group pressure and humiliate and take recalsitrants down a peg without raising your voice much above a whisper. I agree you don't treat people like poor little fragile egos as well.

The art form is to inculcate lessons with accuracy and efficiency, and it is a delight to see it practiced properly.

[Anthill]

My only experience in military instuction was in 1981 at Pukkapunyl as an army reservist. our platoon Stg. informed us us on day 1 that bastadisation was no longer allowed and he couldn't punch us when we %^&ed up, but he sure as #$% could give us plenty of picket duty http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif.

The requirements of civil aviation and military training are very different. The military trainee is molded to kill people on command and the training is designed for this. The crew of a civilian aircraft have a different mission altogether, which is the safe transportaion of pax and cargo by air. There is no logical reason that the military paradigm of trainin should extend into the civilian world.

Consider the philosophies of 20 years ago to those used now: Although most of my previous instructors were level headed individuals who instructed by way of mentoring, there were those who were yellers, screamers and hand-slappers. Of the later group, I just thought that they were bullies and prats. The gentlemen who encouraged rather then screamed provided far more input to my profession development.

Not so long ago, if a trainee failed to check out, they got some additional training and 1 more attempt. If they failed here, they washed out and were probably fired. At my present company, slow performers are given the benefit of 'trouble shooter' instructors and additional training. They also sign a training agreement by which the company agrees to provide the additional training required (which is tailored to the students needs) and the student must reach a certain skill level withing the agreeed time. The process is probably similar to the 'old days' (I wouldn't know exactly because I wasn't subject to it), but is formalised as a contract to comply with industrial law and fairness for all parties.

Regardless of whether this is 'politically correct' or not, consider the following: A trainee undergoes a upgrade (sim or line) and is allocated a screamer who trains by belittlement, aggression and physical contact (slapping). The trainees confidence is slowly eroded and fails to check out. They fail to perform in the next check and are subsequently fired. this trainee has every reason to sue for unfair dismissal: they have been subject to workplace harrassment, assualted, belittled, etc in a hostile workplace environment. No wonder they didn't complete the training to the required standard! A six figuire settlement and re-employment orders would follow!

I have not much interest in what methods the US military employs in their training as it has not much relevence in our world. US Marines are trained to kill en-mass when ordered to do so. We have a diffent mission and ethic (one would hope!). They instructional methods that my company uses stem from adult education philosophies and doctrines developed by experts in the field, such as former airline training captain and current academic researcher Dr Tim Mavin from Griffith University. Their opinions and approach hold far more relevance than those from the marine corps.

(In the interests of Political Correctness, we give recognision to the Djjarnkk people, their tribal leaders and ancestors as the traditional owners of this thread:ok:).


:E

[Mach E Avelli]

When I was learning to fly 50 years ago, most flying school instructors were ex-military.
One of these gave me a lesson that I will never forget. I had come back from an early solo session and in my euphoria had forgotten to switch off the magnetoes. We did not use checklists in bugsmashers back then. As luck would have it, the CFI (who was the full RAAF Monty right down to his handlebar moustache) was next to take over the aeroplane.
He stormed back in to the office and very publicly tore me a new rectum. He did not shout, but made sure that everyone in the room could hear him. Including the office chick that I was so desperate to impress.
Words to the effect that if I EVER, EVER left the switches on again he would personally go to the ends of the earth to terminate my flying ambitions by not only banning me from his school, but by passing the word around that I was a dangerous moron who should not be taught to fly for my sake and for protection of society as a whole. To a sprog 17 year-old, that was SO humiliating. My initial thought was that I would take my business elsewhere, where they had younger instructors who were not ex-military. I am glad that I came to my senses and stayed where I was, because this same guy gave me some of the best instruction that I have ever received; delivered firmly, sometimes with gentle sarcasm, but with wonderful humour.
And - I have NEVER fogotten the ignition switches EVER in any aeroplane since. Even when I fly turbines, I still check that the manual ignition is off at shutdown.

[remoak]

Trojan1981

many of those operationally-experienced aircrew in the ADF have obtained their experience while working as part of a foreign force. Training methodologies and doctrine are very similar throughout the western world. In fact Australian aircrew can be (and are) trained in Oz, Canada, the UK and the US - all graduating with the same required standards. The only force really left out in the cold is NZ.


I agree. Regarding the NZ force, they gained their experience by simply leaving when Helen closed down the Air Force, and joining the RAF!

They are hardly the tip of the spear when it comes to training development as they are cost driven, reactive and work in a risk-averse, over-regulated environment. Peoples lives (particularly on the ground) rarely depend on the arrival of an airliner. Different game, different rules.

Quite incorrect. People's lives don't depend on the arrival of an airliner per se, but the fact remains that a poorly trained pilot can, in an instant, kill everyone on his or her aircraft, and hundreds on the ground. This has happened on numerous occasions (the Russian captain that let his son fly the airliner he was commanding, ony to have the lad get the aircraft into an unrecoverable position, springs to mind). Airlines recognise this, and train accordingly. They know that one bad accident can (and often has) end their company. Airlines are far more exposed to this risk than most other businesses, and I think you would find that, if you ever spent any time in the training department of a significant airline, you would see how wrong you are.

Mach E Avelli

However some of us believe that certain recalcitrants may need to be taken down a peg by using a bit of military-style psychology and peer pressure. In extremis, some measure of humiliation may be in order.

Fine, as long as don't include me in that group. Or you could devise a new group - one that recognises that you can use your voice to command attention WITHOUT shouting, and you can use physical contact without it being in any way offensive.

[Centaurus]

The military trainee is molded to kill people on command

Jeeze! Now you tell me! I joined the RAAF because I wanted to fly aeroplanes - they said nothing about training to kill people when I did flight grading on Tiger Moths. :ok: Actually, come to think of it maybe you are right. I do remember my RAAF instructor saying something about "are you trying to kill me, or something?" It was a near ground loop in a Wirraway.

[Mach E Avelli]

Remoak, if you re-read my various posts you will note that no-where do I endorse shouting. As far as "physical contact without it being in any way offensive" - in today's PC world that would be a very dangerous form of instructional technique.
The Indian guy who used such a technique (the genesis of this thread) was rightly slapped down by the court. He was lucky that my Canadian colleague was not the student or he would have been slapped down all right!

[Anthill]

Training is all about the trainee. When I instruct, I give my time to the student. I endevour to make my knowledge theirs. Better still, I woul;d hope that they can develop their own set of attitudes so as to make them better at their work.When yelling and slapping become part of the session, the emphasis is now on how important and powerful the instructor is, not the importance of the student who is really who the training session is all about.

Outside the cockpit, is it acceptable to yell at and slap another person? Instructors and captains who think that it is allowable for them to carry on in this way are really exercising a mis-placed belief in their own importance. Rather than being an exercise in elevating the standard of the student, thse instructors are using the student to inflate their own ego and self-importance. This is not what instruction is about.

In a similar vein, captains who are hand-slappers are also into a power trip. Let's reverse the roles here for a second and consider a captains reaction if a FO slapped a captains hand from a switch and said "that's my job". What would happen? Why would this be any more offensive than a captain slapping the FO's hand? Hand slapping in the flight deck is the surest, quickest way to destroy the flight deck crew as a team. Therefore, hand slappers should not be in charge of a flight deck!

On another point, if you are going to crew someone out over an operational issue, choose your venue carefully. I had to speak to an engineer regarding his bad behaviour towards myself and cabin crew. Unfortunately I chose to do this under the aeroplane with the APU running, thus I had to shout to be heard. This was mis-construed by this prat as me 'yelling' at him. Thankfully, some witnesses contradicted this twats version of events (some of his coworkers later bought me a steak and a jug of beer for putting this self appointed 'God' of the tarmac in his place).

[remoak]

Mach E Avelli

Yep I get that, I am just trying to point out that between the two extremes - PC we-mustn't-upset-the-little-darlings and a full-on rant with shouting and maiming, there exists a middle ground where common sense rules, and where one can use one's voice and even physically touch another human being in a way which is appropriate and helpful. I refuse to be categorised as one extreme or the other.

Anthill

Training is all about the trainee.It might be down at an Aero Club where customers pay to be treated a certain way, but it isn't in the airline environment. Airlne training departments have to train a pilot to a required standard within a finite period of time and within a training budget. We naturally want to see the trainee qualify - failing a course is often a career breaker, and costs the airline a fortune - so we help them as much as we possibly can. I have spent many hours in a rented sim trying to get a trainee on track in my off-duty time. The stakes are very high for the trainee, and if I have to raise my voice or touch them to get a point across, I will. Such things are often the difference between passing and failing - sometimes you need to shock them a little to get them to focus. This is well-known and accepted in the industry (outside Australia at any rate). We only do it because we want to see the trainee pass - and if you do it properly, you end up relieving stress rather than creating more stress. The days of the ex-military bully in the airlines are pretty much over.

And you know what really makes me laugh at the likes of Sunfish and his offended sensibilities? On the occasions when I have had to take a firm line with a trainee, I have always apologised later over a beer - mainly because it is not my nature be nasty (no matter what picture Sunfish might want to paint). The trainees, to a man (and a couple of women) have thanked me for helping them get their act together and become successful airline pilots.

So I shall continue with proven and sucessful techniques, and have a quiet chuckle at the protestations of those who nothing about the industry.

And returning to the origins of this thread, the gentleman in question was well known as a bully, particularly within his ethnic group. Nobody is surprised at what resulted. On the other hand, I'd be intrigued to know how many airline-level instructors have been the subject of harassment suits. I suspect the number is a big, fat zero.

[Capt Claret]

Just out of interest Anthill, next time you're taking off in your Seagull Mk IV with 150+ pax & cabin crew down the back, and Bloggs who's just completed his/her aerobatic endorsement and reently watched the YouTube video of Tex Johnston barrel rolling a demo 707, decides they'll barrel roll the MkIV, what will you do?

What will you do when you tell him/her to stop and they continue, and you say "taking over" as you wiggle the controls, and they continue to hold in full aileron to accomplish their "seemed like a good idea at the time" barrel roll?

[Mach E Avelli]

Nice one Clarrie!
The scenario you describe is not as far-fetched as it may seem.
When I was CP of a small F27 operation I once got a call from a very distressed Captain who had an altercation with his First Officer on final approach to Cairns. The F/O was way too high and was not responding to the Captain's prompting. At the point where the approach was almost un-salvagable the Captain made the usual "taking over" call but the F/O refused to hand over. Fortunately the Captain was physically stronger and eventually wrestled the controls free. Had it been a more modern turboprop, the forces involved would have probably caused a control disconnect. Now THAT would have been exciting!
Of course the F/O was fired on the spot and left to make his way home to Sydney on Greyhound.
30 years ago I did have occasion to punch someone out in the cockpit after extreme provocation. Story related elsewhere in these forums. With the benefit of 20:20 hindsight, the appropriate action at the time would have been to banish this particular fool to the back with all the freight ( no pax aboard) and revert to single pilot operation. Strictly not legal, but the atmosphere in the cockpit was so tense that single pilot in an aeroplane I knew well would have been the safer option.
But in your scenario the best tools available would be the fire extinguisher or crash axe. If someone is trying to go out of control they could well be suicidal. The axe could help them...

[Captain Sand Dune]

A mate of mine was flying an instructional sortie with a student who was having trouble with glide circuits in the mighty Parrot. Student realised he was going to fly through the extended centreline so he very rapidly applied bank and pulled, stalling the aircraft. Instructor called “taking over” and shook the stick, but the student froze and would not release the controls. At this stage the aircraft was about 400FT AGL and stalled. Instructor had to thump the student in order for him to release the controls. And that was the last sortie that student ever flew in a CT4.

[Desert Flower]

Instructor had to thump the student in order for him to release the controls.

Desperate situations call for desperate measures, & in this case the action was warranted!

DF.

[Anthill]

Capt Claret, we were taking about hand-slapping in a non-emergency situation, such as making MCP selections outside of defined area of responsibility.

In an emergency situation, how the hell do you think that I would respond? Your question is both stupid and unworthy.

:cool: