Q's on flying with cost sharing passengers

[laurie]

I wonder if anyone may be able to help me.

I have heard of people flying with passengers on a cost sharing basis, in effect building hours and experience whilst reducing costs considerably.

The question is how far can you go in attracting the people to this idea? I work in a large business, and feel certain there are lots of people who would enjoy the chance to fly off in a light aircraft, possibly three friends to a destination of their choice and back for an enjoyable day trip...

Would there be a problem with openly 'advertising' on the work notice board, or is it better to network on a more personal level. Surely it wouldn't be problem to put something up saying for example "Light aircraft Pilot, touring various airfields, passengers welcome, any enquiries to...."? I know I may be wrong about that - as I often am :rolleyes:

Hopefully some sage can help me with this, so over to you lot.

Cheers,


Laurie

[Dr. Nick]

I'm not 100% sure but that doesn't sound as though it's allowed. :confused: If you have a CPL and an AOC then you can advertise and charge "passengers" for the privilege of flying with you as much as you want! However a contribution to your costs is a very grey area of the law. As long as no benefit is received from the flight by a pax, ie. no one-way flights then a contribution is allowed on a PPL. Taking a non-flying passenger through advertising and a set cost, say a quarter or a half would seem to me to be a commercial flight and would therefore come under those rules. :(

[The Greaser]

How about when I was a wee whipper snapper and I used to take my parents flying for fun. They would pay for the full expenses of the flight - is this against the law? Surely not.

[regional guy]

The Greaser :

I don't know about european rules, but according to the FARs you would be in violation by doing that. It states that privat pilots may not fly for compensation or hire (with a few exceptions). So, legally you would have to pay no less than a pro-rate share of the flight. Flying with your parents you would have to pay at least 1/3 of the cost, you could have paid more, but not less....

[QNH 1013]

Laurie, I believe you are not allowed to advertise the availability of cost-share flights anywhere except within an aeroclub. I tried to find a reference to this but unfortunately I couldn't so I'm trusting my memory and I could be wrong.
Cost sharing with non-pilots does fill your log book up for less. Cost sharing with other pilots gives you additional experience plus you can go further for each pound.

[laurie]

Thanks all.

What about if it came up in conversation/word going round (no advertising on notice boards etc), and the passengers were willing to fly on return trips on a cost share basis - would that be ok?

Laurie.

[tomcs]

I really dont see what the problem is!! You aren't actually getting remimbursed. The guy who flew his parents could have just as easily payed for it at the club then gone home and his dad could have given him a cheque...either way the guy isn't benefitting!
Tom:cool:

[Don D Cake]

Here's the relevant bit from the ANO, it's quite clear....

(ii)

(aa) no more than 4 persons (including the pilot) are carried on such a flight;

(bb) the proportion which such contribution bears to the total direct costs of the flight shall not exceed the proportion which the number of persons carried on the flight (excluding the pilot) bears to the number of persons carried on the flight (including the pilot);

(cc) no information concerning the flight shall have been published or advertised prior to the commencement of the flight other than, in the case of an aircraft operated by a flying club, advertising wholly within the premises of such a flying club in which case all the persons carried on such a flight who are aged 18 years or over shall be members of that flying club; and

(dd) no person acting as a pilot on such a flight shall be employed as a pilot by or be a party to a contract for the provision of services as a pilot with the operator of the aircraft being flown on the flight.

[laurie]

Thanks DDCake,

But reading (c) when it states:

"...no information concerning the flight shall have been published or advertised..."

Is 'advertised' being used in the broadest sense? At a stretch, the powers that be might deem talking with others about such an idea as 'advertising'. I really think it isn't, but of course I am obviously at risk of being a bit biased.

This is really the crux of the matter, and I apologise for the general nature of my initial posting.

Thanks everyone and please continue to share your opinions.

Regards,


Laurie.

[phd]

This is a great thread - and very pertinent to me as I am in that hour building phase between having a PPL and being able to use my new found flying skills to earn some kind of living.

If I send an e.mail to a few of my friends inviting them to come and fly for fun at the weekend, and I ask them to share the costs of the flight with me - am I advertising or publishing information about the flight? My interpretation of advertising and publishing is putting information into the public domain - such as through a newspaper, magazine, on a webpage or through some other mass media for any one to read. If I send information just to my friends/acquaintances - is that advertising?

Any astute lawyer types out there care to comment?

------------------------------------------------------------------
'If all else fails - lower your standards'.

[Troy McClure]

If there is absolutely no way anyone from the CAA can possibly see your 'advert', you're not (by definition) advertising. If they can, you are. And you're already caught into the bargain... Does that make sense?

Interpretations of the ANO as cited by Don D Cake:

a) Pretty straight forward.

b) You take one passenger, you the pilot must pay at least half. Take two and you must pay at least a third, etc.

c) You can stick an ad up on your flying club notice board, but not in the church hall or in the local paper. You can take your kids up, but any other passengers must be members of the club - Most clubs get round this by offering a day membership (which also means that your passengers are insured). Some don't even charge for this day membership...

d) You mustn't be on the flying club's payroll.

In my experience, it makes sod all difference anyway, as when it comes to coughing up 20 quid towards a flight, your passengers are the ones who claim they're skint. Begging the question, what the hell have they been spending all THEIR money on....

TMC

[Freak On A Leash]

The fact of the matter is;how are you going to use the aircraft?
Sounds to me like it`s only going to be transporting employees of the same company.Then you have to find out whether or not you will actually be making money flying this aircraft (for compensation or hire), though here it seems that since you`ll be flying non-paying passengers you`re just being an airborne company "busdriver".
Not quite sure how this works in your part of the world, but up North we divide operations in 3: commercial, private and club (i.e. flying club or school).
You`re not a commercial operator and you`re only moving people for the company - this goes under our "private" section, or perhaps "club" if you decide to organize a bit.get the picture?
Find out what kinds of operation you`ll be doing and find out what your country`s requirements are.:)

[singaporegirl]

phd

You may be interested to know that the Advertising Standards Authority recently said that its brief does not even cover a company's website, only 'paid-for' space through a third party, eg an advert in a newspaper or magazine.

In which case, a private email to another individual could hardly count as advertising! :p

[laurie]

Very interesting reading your thoughts on this.

I think I'll go by 'word of mouth' and see what happens.

Good point, Troy McC, when you write "...In my experience, it makes sod all difference anyway, as when it comes to coughing up 20 quid towards a flight, your passengers are the ones who claim they're skint. Begging the question, what the hell have they been spending all THEIR money on...."

For some strange reason people think you are pretty well off if you fly! Then they go out and think nothing of blowing £50 in one weekend at the dancing....

Back to the top for more opinions.


Laurie.

[Hyph]

Hi all,

A friend of mine is a lawyer, so I asked her opinion... she didn't really want to give one, but offered to ask a friend of hers who is an aviation lawyer. I got the answer this morning.

"There is no definitive answer to this but, she feels that asking for cost-sharing passengers by email should be ok, providing you know the people concerned and it's a private email... i.e. not posted to a publicly accessible forum or sent through a list-server. Obviously you need to make sure you're not breaching any of the other requirements like number of passengers, proportion of cost borne by each passenger, etc.

The CAA do not seem to have defined exactly what constitutes an advertisement, therefore they could be able to argue that almost anything is an advertisement, including word of mouth. In general you should be ok.

If you stick to the above and the CAA challenge you it should be straightforward to defend yourself."

Ivan.

[Lucifer]

You really have to be advertising via a paid advert etc to the general public to get in trouble, since then you are soliciting your services on the basis of a professional status that you do not yet have on a PPL. To take people up in groups as you need the hours, you pay your share (ish) and having put up a note on a company board is a different level entirely, and the CAA probably won't blink an eye - besides would you be happy at that level taking someone up that you don't know?

I remember when I was back at that stage that they give an example such as you go halves with a friend, and as he enjoys it he buys you a coffee in the clubhouse, or maybe a meal later. That will not be a problem, however him walking out and paying your share as well later is.

With regards a family: with respect to most things a family is a single unit - there can be little complaint if your Dad pays the lot every time - not only can you not enforce it as has been said above, but it is hardly for compensation or hire if within a family either.

In short, keep it discreet - you can say an approx cost (not price) that covers their share of the costs, and everyone's happy. Don't flout any more than that an the CAA stays happy.