A330 AIR BERLIN INCIDENT IN HKT

[greenspinner]

At HKT Airport on 20-Dec-12, ~2130LT, Air Berlin A330 Departure from HKT, then request air turn back for Emergency landing cause Engine 1 fire!.

A/C made a hard landing and 3 of main wheels burst. AOT declare Runway closure due to unable to move a/c off the runway.

[JammedStab]

I wonder if they did an overweight landing. I was told that on my craft, the autopilot is not approved for overweight landings. Is this pretty much standard among airliners.

[Bearcat]

Refer to QRH- airbus mention from memory non certified but you can do an o/weight Ldg upto 227t?

[gtseraf]

I'm not sure what the autopilot approval has to do with this.

last I checked pilots were trained to manually fly aircraft, or have the standards dropped so low that the a/p has to be used for everything.

[alidad]

Bit difficult to do an autoland RWY 27 when the localiser is offset by about 2 degrees from the runway course :\

[PA-28-180]

" Last I checked pilots were trained to manually fly aircraft, or have the standards dropped so low that the a/p has to be used for everything. "

Unfortunately, Gtseraf, seems they have in many cases. Check the thread on the temorary loss of control because the captain didn't have an operable FD.....:eek::ugh:

[DouglasFlyer]

Bit difficult to do an autoland RWY 27 when the localiser is offset by about 2 degrees from the runway course

...and is CAT I only...

[Coastrider26]

You can do an overweight landing on the autopilot but one of the items mentioned in the QRH is that the rate of descend on touch down can not exceed 360 ft/min.

[DouglasFlyer]

Our QRH A-333 says in the chapter "overweight landing":

"An overweight landing is authorized up to MTOW.
Automatic landing is certified up to Maximum Landing Weight (MLW). Autoland flight tests have, however, been successful up to 229 tons.
Depending on the situation (e.g. emergency or other) and provided that the runway is approved for automatic landing, the flight crew can decide to perform a autoland up to 229 tons."

In my opinion you have to have a good reason to conduct a AL with overweight - i think it wouldn't be good airmanship to try it on a CAT I ILS with an offset LOC...

[joe two]

there is no reason at all to do an autoland anyway

[DouglasFlyer]

...fog... ?

[MANTHRUST]

Was it foggy?
Did they do an auto land?
We're they overweight?
Have I missed something?

[BOAC]

How CAN we have a thread without the 'METAR Poster'?:ugh:

[Dg800]

Can I run for the position of 'AvHerald poster' instead? :E

Incident: Air Berlin A332 at Phuket on Dec 20th 2012, engine fire (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45ad3851&opt=0)

[BOAC]

You got it:ok: T&C are crap.mind you, but STILL no actual:{

[Shot Nancy]

HKT 09 has RNAV, VOR or visual approach. 27 has RNAV, offset ILS, VOR or visual approach. Ergo auto land not possible.
Please, no more mention of auto land.

[4468]

Tyres normally burst due to excess energy (heat) being applied to the brakes during deceleration after landing. Not purely by any overweight issues. A wind report (available to the investigation team) will assist in explaining any decelaration 'issues'. It may also give an indication as to why the crew took off from 27, and landed on 09. As the pax did not evacuate on the runway (but are reported to have used mobile stairs) an unextinguishable fire, requiring immediate landing, looks unlikely?

[JW411]

Dear God; why would anyone in their right mind even attempt to do an autoland in these circumstances?

[Hotel Tango]

Dear God; why would anyone in their right mind even attempt to do an autoland in these circumstances?

They didn't, so it's irrelevant!

[Squawk7777]

Dear God; why would anyone in their right mind even attempt to do an autoland in these circumstances?

They didn't, so it's irrelevant!

Is it really irrelevant, or does it show the lack of common sense these days?

[root]

Is the A330 AP certified for AL on 1 engine?

[Zorin_75]

how can we have a thread without the 'metar poster'?:ugh:vtsp 201430z vrb02kt 8000 few020 sct120 bkn300 26/24 q1009 a2982 nosig
:E

[galant1]

if the majority here advocate an auto land an aircraft overweight because it has one of the two engines on fire, please leave the industry. Of course we are talking about airbus pilots. What do you guys do in training, sit and read the womans journal.

[chaz88z]

Quite amazing how many of the above post so knowledgeably and completely ignore the fact that they don't even know if it was foggy and that they can't auto land at HKT anyway..

Fog in Phuket, Thailand ? Does that ever happen ?

[el caballero rojo]

I quote a reaction made on the Aviation Herald

By Denti on Friday, Dec 21st 2012 23:13Z

Well, uncontained engine failure, two hydraulic systems gone, crew flying on direct law and of course no anti skid on landing, all that well above landing weight. Air Berlin is quite lucky to still have a few experienced flight crews that know how to handle a multiple malfunction situation without any injured passengers or crew.



Gentleman,
This comment more or less describes what happened and not the assumptions that were made here prior.
If you are a 330 driver, you really understand that this a severe emergency that Airbus considers as " very unlikely".
Well done to the well experienced "Air Berlin" pilots
To the Green poster who started the Topic: a bit off to conclude that the tire burst was due to a hard landing after an overweight landing with dual hydraulic failure and 1 eng out. To the Autoland fraction: you have a third Auto Pilot in the A330 I didn't know off who suddenly works with a Dual Hydr leaving you in Alternate law until you lower the landing gear?? We are talking about hand flying in a FBW aircraft that is missing some of its flight controls :eek: on one engine.
Forget the Autoland stuff; you can't do one in Direct law and for sure not on a RNAV09 ( not to mention the offset 27) in the middle of the night.
As always. Please stop the false assumptions.
Well done to those pilots and the cabin crew. Experience does matter no matter what they say.

[rubik101]

In Phuket? No such thing.

[ZimmerFly]

Very mild cool season or weather at Phuket Starts mid of October ends at mid of March. Celsius is like 25c-32c.The hint of starting cool weather at phuket,when moisture weather winds at phuket crash with cool winds arrives from china. This wind meeting create fog in Phuket for around for 2 days, on that time if you go to any mountains like Big Buddha mountain, feels like you are in some of the other places.

http://www.ephuket.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/weather-phuket.jpg

Weather Phuket | Travel Phuket (http://www.ephuket.net/weather-phuket/)

:E

[BN2A]

Phuket and Krabi, both can be susceptible to fog...

:)

[giblets]

If anyone is interested, Air Berlin have the Pratt P4168A option on their A330s.

[safelife]

This will make record as the biggest bull**** ever.

[bracebrace!]

After an engine failure,it automatically changes from normal to alternate law/direct law..in which many systems are unavailable including antiskid..


Really? I don't know what sort of Airbus you fly but I suggest taking it back to to Toulouse and asking for another as it sounds like it's completely b*ggered. :ugh:

[DouglasFlyer]

RAJITHRAJAN320 "...in which many systems are unavailable including antiskid..."

According to my knowledge, the following systems are inop after a engine shutdown in a A330-200:

Engine 1 (2) Shutdown (ENG 2 shutdown in paranthesis)

BLUE HYD (if ENG 1 shutdown)
(YELLOW HYD) (if ENG 2 shutdown)
PART SPLRS
REV 1 (2)
CAT 3 DUAL
ENG 1 (2) BLEED
PACK 1 (2)
G ENG 1 (2) PUMP
B ENG 1 PUMP
(Y ENG 2 PUMP)
GEN 1 (2)
ALTN BRK (if ENG 1 shutdown)
PART GALLEY (electric)
(YAW DAMPER 2) (if ENG 2 shutdown)

affected:

SLATS SLOW (if ENG 1 shutdown)
FLAPS SLOW (if ENG 2 shutdown)
CAT 3 SINGLE ONLY
if one ENG FIRE p/B has been pressed A/THR may be inop - then degraded to CAT 2 ONLY

In my opinion the antiskid is available - but I flew the A-330-200 for only seven years...

[CABUS]

[QUOTE]Is the A330 AP certified for AL on 1 engine?/QUOTE]

Yes, Cat 3 A.

Good on them, an engine fire out of HKT could not have been easy especially with negotiating with local ATC. ATC can be very good but as soon as things go wrong and nonstandard phrases start to slip in things can get very busy very quickly.

A few well deserved Chang's will be enjoyed by the crew I hope.

[el caballero rojo]

Eng1 fail with additional green Hydr failure.
In other words: green and blue system gone and on one engine.
Overweight landing
These are facts.
So if you loose 2 Hydr systems you go in alternate law with reduced protections.
Once you lower the gear, you are in direct law.
All the discussions about Autoland are not relevant.
The assumption that once you loose an engine you are in alternate law is not correct.
On all the Airbus 330 and 320 (on which I am rated and current on) series you can still make an Autoland with one engine out. Correctly stated CAT 3 A or single as mentioned in Airbus Aircraft. Things change when you loose more then "just" an engine.

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

Q for 330 guys - does a "vanilla" engine failure in the '330 result in 1 Hyd system loss? :confused:

[illusion]

With no Green Hyd Sys. There is the small detail of not being able retract the landing gear. On one engine, not a good place to be.....

[DouglasFlyer]

On an engine failure you loose either blue or yellow hydraulics...

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

Thx for info! :ok:

[BN2A]

Think I'd be losing brown hydraulics!!!!

:\

[loc22550]

Caballero,

Unlike the A-320, 0n the A-330 you don't go to direct law once you put the landing gear down in alternate law .

[CABUS]

Not that it really matters but on the 330 if you lose an engine it only effects one hyd sys. The green system has two engine driven pumps so remains pressurised and the a/c stays in normal law and can do a cat 3A. Your talking about the 320 and even then you don't get a double system failure as the ptu keeps at least two systems running and therefore in normal law. Can also auto land but I think it's CAT 2, haven't flown it in ages.

[Konrad_Huebstedt]

I´m still wondering why this very serious incident attracts so less attention as we´re talking about a double hyd fail, engine fail and supposedly an engine fire (not to mention all the associated secondary failures).

The incident has been dealt with by two former LTU-330-drivers, which makes the incident interesting as well.

I´m not sure if nowadays drivers would have been able to save the day with this redicoulus safety standard established by the LCCs.
And I´m not just talking about 2x2 vs. 4x4 hours Sim per year...


(For the younger colleagues: LTU was activ in the heydays of aviation and the company was well known for an excellent training standard provided towards cockpit AND cabin.)

[BEA 71]

At the airline I worked for we had PILOTS on flight deck, as far as I know those braving the elements there today are still called PILOTS.

[el caballero rojo]

Indeed loc,
Caballero,

Unlike the A-320, 0n the A-330 you don't go to direct law once you put the landing gear down in alternate law .

one of the disadvantages of Mixed Fleet Flying. You sometimes mix things up.

The A330 stays in Alternate law. One problem less.
Thanks for straightening this out.

Cabus, you are right in General but not in this case. I reconfirm. An engine failure ( uncontained ) with loss of green system on top. Meaning; one engine out and blue + green hyd inop. Just take this as a fact please. Do not see it as a standard Airbus failure. The reality is often different as in a standard sim session.

[pravg]

the engine failure cause may be found here
Federal Register, Volume 77 Issue 42 (Friday, March 2, 2012) (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012-03-02/html/2012-5094.htm)

[el caballero rojo]

Indeed. A failure of the LPT.

[Richthoven]

Incident: Air Berlin A332 at Phuket on Dec 20th 2012, uncontained engine failure and fire (http://avherald.com/h?article=45ad3851/0000&opt=0)

[Richthoven]

The current report can be found here :

Incident: Air Berlin A332 at Phuket on Dec 20th 2012, uncontained engine failure and fire (http://avherald.com/h?article=45ad3851/0000&opt=0)

[Konrad_Huebstedt]

...the intermediate report is out now:
Incident: Air Berlin A332 at Phuket on Dec 20th 2012, uncontained engine failure and fire (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45ad3851/0000&opt=0)

one more interesting detail, the captain accumulated some 7.000 hours as f/e til 1986 or so.