QF Ek Green Light [Archive]

TIMA9X

21st Dec 2012, 15:20

Flying Kangaroo leaps into a shaky alliance

The new Emirates-Qantas tie-up, granted qualified approval by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission on Thursday, marks the end of a long and glorious era for the Flying Kangaroo.

While noting that the alliance is “like to result in some public detriments through its effect on competition”, the ACCC has nevertheless given the plan an important initial green light, while noting that it wants to check things again in five years – instead of the 10-year period proposed.

Ten years, of course, is a long time in modern commercial aviation.
If you has told someone 10 years ago that the mighty Qantas would be relegated to junior partner in a tie-up with an Arab airline, they would have found it hard to believe.

Yet many analysts are now tipping further shrinkage in Qantas's network, as Emirates steps in to fill the gap.
So what to make of it?

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce says there is no other choice – Qantas is struggling and needs this tie-up to survive.

Yet it is impossible to test Mr Joyce's claim because of the opaque and mysterious way the airline has been managed in recent times.

For example, in February 2011, Mr Joyce declared an underlying profit of $165 million for the half year. The result was 175 per cent above the prior year's corresponding period.

At the time Mr Joyce boasted that: "Qantas improved yield by 9 per cent, and increased capacity by 3.3 per cent, demonstrating a strong revenue recovery across both the international and domestic divisions. The result was achieved despite the significant operational and financial challenges of the A380 disruptions and northern hemisphere snowstorms.”

Yet just a few short months later, in June 2011, this sunny picture had apparently descended rapidly into an emergency.

Mr Joyce was now lamenting that: "Qantas International is forecast to generate a loss before interest and tax of approximately $200 million … with a weaker result expected next year. Qantas International is the group's weakest business – it achieved required returns only three times in the past 15 years. Clearly the situation is not sustainable."

To fall so rapidly would require a $25 million a month minimum loss. Yet the company did not report the profit downgrade until June 6, 2011. Most airline boards keep track of airline performance on a daily basis or the very least every week. How could such a staggering fall be left unnoticed and what could cause it?
A surge in fuel prices? In fact, the price of fuel stayed steady during this period.
A huge drop in passengers? In fact, the load factor – the percentage of seats filled – went up and remains around 82 per cent.

You would think that an outsider could analyse the loss by simply examining Qantas's books, yet because of Australia's accounting standards this is impossible to do properly, because Qantas International has not been defined as a segment for accounting purposes.

Understanding any loss in this area, therefore, is simply a matter of taking Mr Joyce's word for it.
That means that how much Qantas "needs" this Emirates tie-up is completely debatable.
Certainly, looking at it in from a national interest point of view it looks tough to justify.
Those I speak to in Asia are always amazed at how Australia is allowing Qantas to shrink.
A viable aviation industry is part of our national infrastructure. Qantas has proven its unique value time-and-time again throughout our history: evacuating Australians after the bombing of Darwin, the Vietnam War, Cyclone Tracy and the Bali bombings. With this sort of consistent record over our history, do we really think a strong national carrier will not again be needed in times of emergency?

Meanwhile, the economic importance of our national carrier was made clear when Mr Joyce grounded the airline last year. The move was estimated to cost the economy $250 million.

Qantas pilots have long-argued that the best way forward for Qantas is to take the German approach to operating in a high-cost environment: focus on offering a premium product where people are getting superior quality for the extra amount they pay. Instead, Qantas management have opted for a pre-GFC, American-style approach – racing to the bottom on costs and deploying complex, high-wire financial manoeuvres.

It's tough to see how tying a huge part of national infrastructure to the continued fortunes of a Middle Eastern government-owned airline is anything other than a gamble.

Yet Mr Joyce is in the captain's seat, and we have no choice but to take his word that it's a good one.

Captain Barry Jackson is president of the Australian and International Pilots Association

Read more: Flying Kangaroo leaps into a shaky alliance (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/flying-kangaroo-leaps-into-a-shaky-alliance-20121221-2br10.html#ixzz2FhgdkZpE)

Great follow up piece by BJ since the announcement, smh Friday .

mightyauster

22nd Dec 2012, 10:59

For example, in February 2011, Mr Joyce declared an underlying profit of $165 million for the half year. The result was 175 per cent above the prior year's corresponding period.

Yet just a few short months later, in June 2011, this sunny picture had apparently descended rapidly into an emergency.

You would think that an outsider could analyse the loss by simply examining Qantas's books, yet because of Australia's accounting standards this is impossible to do properly, because Qantas International has not been defined as a segment for accounting purposes.

This has shades of the artificial $300mil profit that Rod Eddington generated at Ansett, before News Corp sold its remaining share to Air New Zealand....:uhoh:

Stalins ugly Brother

22nd Dec 2012, 15:12

This has shades of the artificial $300mil profit that Rod Eddington generated at Ansett, before News Corp sold its remaining share to Air New Zealand....

Except Ansett was sold to Air New Zealand, not just purely given away.

No Stalin UB, that would be the last thing they want.

QF is very parochial to Australia, they want a global airline brand which is why they came up with J*, a name which can be multinational. At least internationally, there is no incentive to change the name to QANTAS.

Seasons Greetings to all, safe flying.
Mud

My point was that Emirates won't deal with Jetstar due to not being a premium product so that would limit the potency of the network. Painted in QF colours tho, well that's another ball game!

I do agree tho with your sentiments if the satis quo remains and tunnel revision remains re Jetstar then you wouldn't bother branding it in QF colours. Qf's destiny is now in the hands of others so let's see what our new masters want.

Merry Christmas to all and lets hope next year can only get better!! :ok:

CaptCloudbuster

23rd Dec 2012, 05:53

Emirates won't deal with J* eh?

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://m.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/emirates-to-increase-co-operation-with-jetstar-asia/story-e6frg95x-1226501863508)

Emirates vice-president for route planning Anand Lakshminarayanan told a conference in Singapore that the Dubai-based carrier saw "a lot of potential" in a tie-up with Jetstar in addition to the alliance with Qantas.

As for Bazza's opinion piece...

Too little too late.

TIMA9X

23rd Dec 2012, 06:04

I do agree tho with your sentiments if the satis quo remains and tunnel revision remains re Jetstar then you wouldn't bother branding it in QF colours. Qf's destiny is now in the hands of others so let's see what our new masters want.
Pretty much where 2012 has finished up...

jingle bells...:)

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HN5dEUV45FI/UNaqeHE9LBI/AAAAAAAAAcQ/Hl3oJnL3Yl0/s640/001-Toy-Story-All-Toy-storys-characters-3-final.jpg

halas

23rd Dec 2012, 06:33

Ek have tied up with EzyJet and JetBlue.

Why not Jet* ?

halas

SeeBee

23rd Dec 2012, 06:59

All of the financial stuff was raised at the time - I even put a piece on Pprune.
Barry has been saying this for a while.
However the "powers" that be have decided the path this was going to take. Whether we like it or not the financial markets have swallowed the story hook, line and sinker.
The future will say unequivocally that it was obvious, if only people had spoken up - it is obvious, we have spoken up and the future will be that the few will get richer at our expense....

busdriver007

23rd Dec 2012, 17:47

we have all seen this before...it's was called the GFC and the "Assets go private and the debt goes public" and Swanny wonders where his surplus went....duh!:ugh:

hotnhigh

24th Dec 2012, 04:16

You do touch on a point bus driver wrt to Mr swan. ......but what about loss of tax revenues? Unfortunately, the penny will never drop with the clowns in Canberra either. Qantas's position of outsource everything that's not nailed down, preferably to an overseas provider, will also add to the dint in the tax revenue can that the pollies in Canberra receive. However, until the chairmans lounge is outsourced, they simply won't give a toss. Somebody else's problem.
Just like US debt.:ugh:

TIMA9X

24th Dec 2012, 05:49

Qantas's position of outsource everything that's not nailed down, preferably to an overseas provider,will also add to the dint in the tax revenue can that the pollies in Canberra receive.I agree, then this lot in Canberra will complain down the track, "big Australian companies having the hide to off-shore Australian jobs.." We didn't see it coming they will also complain... :ugh:

I compiled the news highlights for 2012 regarding the big announcements by Qantas and Virgin during the year, gives a good insight in where things are headed in 2013 for our industry. :uhoh:

Tvs39GfPCLI

My thoughts go out to all who are working over the festive season, Merry Christmas and a Happy and Safe New Year to you all.

tima9x

TheWholeEnchilada

27th Dec 2012, 20:19

Qantas frustrated in search for Asian alliance partner

December 28, 2012

China Eastern is firming as the airline's passport into the region, writes Matt O'Sullivan

After a torrid year, Alan Joyce can finally take a break on the Gold Coast with family from Ireland. But amid trips to amusement parks, the Qantas chief executive will know that in the volatile world of aviation, such downtime is usually the calm before another storm.

Following the competition regulator's nod of approval to Qantas's alliance with Emirates, the 46-year-old Irishman will have to oversee a complex shift of his airline's hub in Singapore to Dubai, and an alignment of systems and products with its new Middle Eastern bedfellow.

With the Emirates deal almost in the bag, attention is set to turn quickly to Qantas's plans for Asia.

The region has not been a happy hunting ground for the Flying Kangaroo in recent years. Remember Qantas's ambitious plans for RedQ, the start-up premium airline to be based in Singapore and later Kuala Lumpur? Those plans have been shelved indefinitely.

Qantas will unveil more details about its Asian strategy in the coming weeks. It will centre on better timing of Qantas flights to Hong Kong and Singapore, which has been made possible by the Emirates deal.

But the pressing issue remains finding a suitable dance partner in Asia, which is vital to Qantas grabbing a bigger slice of the world's fastest-growing travel market. Emirates is under-represented in Asia compared with regional powerhouses Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific.

As Qantas prepares to shift its hub for European flights from Singapore to Dubai, Singapore Airlines is already rushing to boost flights on routes to Australia. By July, Virgin Australia's alliance partner will be operating 121 flights a week to Australia - up from 104 a year ago - including four daily flights to both Sydney and Melbourne.

For Qantas, the dilemma is a lack of suitable Asian bedfellows.
Virgin has stitched up a code-share alliance and equity ties with Singapore Airlines.
While Cathay Pacific is considered an ideal bride in north Asia, Qantas executives concede privately that the airlines' long history of rivalry is unlikely to allow the pair's loose ties to become more extensive. Qantas's plans to launch Jetstar Hong Kong in Cathay's backyard makes a full embrace even less likely.

It leaves China Eastern as one of the few candidates for a deeper alliance. Qantas has a code-share agreement with China's third-largest airline, and the pair are joint partners in Jetstar Hong Kong, which is awaiting regulatory approval to begin flights in the middle of next year.

Joyce has emphasised that their Hong Kong venture will help deepen the relationship with China Eastern.

At a Australia-China business function in Canberra in this month, China Eastern's Australian manager, Kathy Zhang, was bullish about the airline's growth plans for flights to Australia next year.
According to people who attended the closed gathering, she indicated that China Eastern planned to boost flights to Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane. China Eastern is playing catch-up with rival China Southern, which has been aggressively targeting Australia over the past year.

Although easily able to fill seats with Chinese tourists, China Eastern lacks Australian bums on seats on flights out of this country. Likewise, Qantas faces the same challenge on its one flight a day to China between Sydney and Shanghai: while it can attract Australian business people, it is a bigger challenge convincing Chinese tourists to book seats.
In what has been coined the ''Asian Century'', Qantas is not alone in wanting to push northwards.

With economies in European and the US in a pickle, airlines around the world are rushing to try to tap untold riches in Asia, and particularly China. One of those is Air Canada, which will boost flights significantly to China next year. But Air Canada's chief executive, Calin Rovinescu, concedes that tapping a country of more than 1.3 billion people cannot be done simply by flying his airline's planes to Shanghai and Beijing, or to secondary cities in China.

''We can't access the Chinese market unless we have access through our partners to the traffic that comes from outside the places like Shanghai and Beijing,'' he says.
It is why airlines are treating global marketing alliances such as Star Alliance, oneworld and SkyTeam as inferior to strong bilateral relationships with other carriers in Asia.
''The real revenue opportunities come when we have targeted, focused code-share relationships, joint-venture relationships, revenue-sharing relationships, potentially profit-sharing relationships,'' Rovinescu says. ''Asia is a huge opportunity.''
Virgin is also open to finding a partner in north Asia and speculation has centred on Cathay and China Southern. The latter has expressed interest in building closer ties with an Australian airline.

In Qantas's case, Joyce and senior executives have invested considerable time in strengthening their relationships with their counterparts at China Eastern. It has the potential to be a frustrating exercise: connections can be created only to find executives move to other parts of China Inc.
Asia is also fraught with political and cultural hurdles for airlines.

That is before taking into account that the Chinese airlines' in-flight products are still not in the same league as those of Cathay and Singapore Airlines, which can command a fare premium.

''There is scope for Qantas to deepen its relationship with China Eastern over Shanghai,'' Macquarie Equities says. ''[But] China Eastern is the smaller of the 'big three' Chinese carriers in Australian capacity terms, and has arguably an inferior product to Cathay, making a Qantas-China Eastern connection less attractive to a corporate traveller than a Cathay or Singapore connection.''

Macquarie Equities also believes south-east Asia will remain a weak spot for Qantas because of a lack of a partner to connect to via Singapore's Changi Airport.

China-based executives say Qantas has to do more to build its brand in Asia, particularly in China. ''You talk to the well-heeled in China and they will have no idea who Qantas is. If you don't have a brand identity, how can you expect to command a premium for your airfares?'' one asks.

Before it steps up efforts to reel in an alliance partner, Qantas will release details in the coming weeks about a rejig of its network schedule into Asia. It is aimed at better timing flights to Hong Kong and Singapore so as to allow passengers to more easily catch connecting regional services, or attend business meetings.
A release of details about substantial improvements to Qantas's on-board products, including business class, is still months away.
The plan for Asia is also about better connecting Qantas flights to Jetstar's growing network. However, hopping from a Qantas flight in Singapore or Tokyo on to a connecting Jetstar flight to a regional destination will certainly not be to every passenger's liking.

"We have four Jetstar-branded airlines and a range of full-service partners in Asia. We'll be leveraging all these links as we improve our connections into key Asian hubs, particularly Hong Kong and Singapore,'' a Qantas spokesman says. ''Our relationship with China Eastern is longstanding and our current focus is getting Jetstar Hong Kong off the ground by mid-2013."
As part of the tie-up with Emirates, Qantas will take a slice of the tickets for the Middle Eastern airline's flights from Australia to Singapore, Kuala Lumpur and Bangkok. In return, Emirates will code-share on Qantas flights to Asia, and on Jetstar services within Asia.

Qantas has estimated that the Emirates deal could increase capacity on flights from Australia to Asia by about 40 per cent, while lifting the amount of connections from Singapore by a quarter as a result of re-timing flights.
The deal also allows Qantas to redeploy under-utilised planes to Asian routes.

Without doubt, Qantas will have its hands full over the coming months. The complexity involved in shifting the hub for European flights from Singapore to Dubai is staggering.
But the need for deeper ties with an Asian dance partner will not go away.

SMH: Qantas frustrated in search for Asian alliance partner (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-frustrated-in-search-for-asian-alliance-partner-20121227-2bxrj.html)

TheWholeEnchilada

27th Dec 2012, 21:22

ACCC gives provisional approval for the EK deal and miraculously the international business begins to turn the corner, rather than facing a "terminal decline" (ACCC submission 7 Sep 2012, p 13 (http://www.accc.gov.au/content/trimFile.phtml?trimFileTitle=D12+134706.pdf&trimFileFromVersionId=1095012&trimFileName=D12+134706.pdf) [/URL])

Qantas load factors increase as international unit improves

by: Ross Kelly
From: Dow Jones Newswires
December 21, 2012 3:00PM

QANTAS Airways said today its load factors -- a measure of the proportion of seats filled on its planes and a key profit driver -- increased in November in a faint sign a turnaround strategy for its international unit is taking effect.

The group's load factor for the month, which also includes distances flown by passengers, rose 0.5 percentage points from a year earlier to 80 per cent, the airline said in a statement. Financial year-to-date load factors, however, are down 1 percentage points.

The rest of the article is behind the paywall if someone wants to post it: [URL="http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-load-factors-increase-as-international-unit-improves/story-e6frg95x-1226541730915"]The Australian: Qantas load factors increase as international unit improves
(http://www.accc.gov.au/content/trimFile.phtml?trimFileTitle=D12+134706.pdf&trimFileFromVersionId=1095012&trimFileName=D12+134706.pdf)

Wonderworld

28th Dec 2012, 09:09

QANTAS Airways said today its load factors -- a measure of the proportion of seats filled on its planes and a key profit driver -- increased in November in a faint sign a turnaround strategy for its international unit is taking effect.

The group's load factor for the month, which also includes distances flown by passengers, rose 0.5 percentage points from a year earlier to 80 per cent, the airline said in a statement. Financial year-to-date load factors, however, are down 1 percentage points.

Australia's flag carrier has been shrinking the size of its international unit to combat soaring jet fuel costs most harmful to airlines with bases in far flung locations such as Australia. Routes cut by Qantas since last August include Singapore-Mumbai, Auckland-Los Angeles and Sydney-San Francisco.

November load factors in the carrier's domestic unit were hurt as Qantas continued to engage in a battle for market share with Virgin Australia by expanding flying capacity. The fall was offset, however, by an improvement at its international division.

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Although the route closures translated into a 3.1 per cent fall in international passengers, the fall was accompanied by a deeper 7.1 per cent decline in flight capacity. The lower availability of seats pushed up the division's load factor by 2.4 percentage points.

Total passengers across the entire Qantas business in November jumped 6.4 per cent from a year earlier, when the airline was reactivating its fleet following the grounding of some of its planes to ward off industrial action.

Its shares rose 1.9 per cent by midday in Sydney, outperforming a 0.3 per cent rise in the broader Australian stockmarket as investors digested the figures.

The airline also hopes to save costs by forging alliances with rivals and this week received provisional regulatory approval for a proposed tie-up with Emirates Airline.

Standard & Poor's said Qantas's BBB- credit rating was unaffected by the regulatory decision.

"The wide-ranging agreement substantially addresses the declining market share and profitability of Qantas' European network and allows Qantas to more appropriately service its Asian network," S&P Credit analyst Anthony Flintoff said in a statement today.

"Nevertheless, we do not view the partnership as a panacea," he said.

Qantas's November update also displayed continued rapid growth at low-cost offshoot Jetstar, home for much of the airline's new jet deliveries.

Flight capacity at Jetstar domestic in November jumped 18.2 per cent amid a 14.9 per cent rise in passengers, while capacity at Jetstar international rose 10.5 per cent amid a 17.1 per cent jump in passengers.

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The Green Goblin

29th Dec 2012, 04:21

With the EU getting political with the gulf carriers and possibly restricting their capacity into their markets we now see the real interest of Emirates in Qantas.

Qantas will not have those capacity restrictions imposed on it and Emirates has probably locked in very favourable terms on the code share agreement.

All Qantas need is capacity out of Dubai in something larger with two engines than what they have or are ever dream of getting.

Interesting times.

TIMA9X

31st Dec 2012, 21:41

we have all seen this before...it's was called the GFC and the "Assets go private and the debt goes public" and Swanny wonders where his surplus went....duh!:ugh:

and

You do touch on a point bus driver wrt to Mr swan. ......but what about loss of tax revenues? Unfortunately, the penny will never drop with the clowns in Canberra either. Qantas's position of outsource everything that's not nailed down, preferably to an overseas provider, will also add to the dint in the tax revenue can that the pollies in Canberra receive. However, until the chairmans lounge is outsourced, they simply won't give a toss. Somebody else's problem.
Just like US debt.:ugh:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QjwEk5MkHiU/UODqsbvd0KI/AAAAAAAAAec/y1PMPPmPErE/s650/859652-celebrity-apprentice-nude-2.jpg?gl=US

OhForSure

2nd Jan 2013, 01:35

I suppose the present critical shortage of S/Os on the A380 will only last until March when the DXB flights begin??? This, obviously owing to the fact that S/Os will no longer be required beyond DXB, given that DXB-LHR is only a 6hr flight, thereby a two crew operation. The plus side being the end of double shuttles, and most DXB patterns being ~4 days for S/Os? :confused:

Jackneville

2nd Jan 2013, 02:04

Word in the playground is 3 to DBX, 48 hours, 2 LHR 24h, DBX 48h, 3 home.....fun.

Cheers.

haughtney1

2nd Jan 2013, 03:58

Word in the playground is 3 to DBX, 48 hours, 2 LHR 24h, DBX 48h, 3 home.....fun.

Cheers.

Repeat after me..."hold at Desdi" "hold at Bubin" there you go..route check complete :E

donpizmeov

2nd Jan 2013, 09:34

14hrs with 3 pilots? And I thought EK worked their pilots hard,

the Don

outside limits

2nd Jan 2013, 09:57

Once you go two pilot the whole pattern is then limited by those limits which is 30 hrs in 7 days. QF does not have an exemption on this so it,will be 3 pilot to LHR.

Keg

2nd Jan 2013, 10:32

Not correct as far as I can tell. FAM 6.7.7.4. If the last flight is a three plus crew operation then 40:7 applies. If its an eight day trip it probably won't matter.

The Vibe

2nd Jan 2013, 10:38

Could I be so bold as to suggest that it may not be the companies intention to use Qantas crews at all on these services.

Whats to stop them using an arrangement with Emirates crews?????

SO shortage solved. 2 crew vs 3 crew rostering problems solved. Excessive Australian tax arrangements solved. Hotel costs and layover allowances in DXB solved.

Relatives cost of pilots and cabin crew would be much less I would think under this kind of arrangement. ie cost savings and more management bonuses. Champagne all round!

Everyone happy except QF employees and it has already been proved that no one could care less about them.

Mister Warning

2nd Jan 2013, 12:24

Can you fly a VH- registered aircraft on a UAE licence?
:ouch:

SOPS

2nd Jan 2013, 12:27

Licence requirements could be an issue, amongst other things.

The Vibe

2nd Jan 2013, 12:31

Yeah guess you are right. Qantas would never contemplate starting an offshore company and shuffling paperwork to get around such things. How silly of me.

SOPS

2nd Jan 2013, 13:00

Actually, good point, I never thought of it in that way. I conceded the point to you Vibe.:O

busdriver007

2nd Jan 2013, 17:40

Aer Lingus, Open Skies(British Airways) all bloody disasters as the passengers left in droves. Other point is they have been doing it with Atlas Air for years, e.g. Qantas flight numbers, wet leased crew....Remember Australia has only one airline that conforms with the Civil Aviation Navigation Act as Virgin is a majority foreign owned airline...The end is near. The Australian airline industry is f#%^&#ked.....How stupid are the Aussies!

hotnhigh

2nd Jan 2013, 21:47

An interesting parallel perhaps?
Business-class socialist | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/node/151867)

[QUOTE]Yet this youthful, left-leaning boss has hit BA like a whirlwind. Within weeks of his acceding to the throne in January 1996, management heads had rolled and a new structure was in place. By last autumn, he was unveiling his plan to cut £1 billion off BA's annual operating costs over three years. Service activities such as maintenance and catering would be outsourced, leaving only essential operations done in-house. That way BA could focus on running flights, filling them and serving customers in a streamlined “virtual airline”.[QUOTE]

British Airways: Care for a downgrade? | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/node/151178)

Where does this former airlines ceo's grand plan stand these days?
The same will be said of Joyce and Cliffords.:ugh::ugh:

reubee

3rd Jan 2013, 07:06

Out of curiosity what is difference in fuel burn SYD-DXB-LHR vs SYD-SIN-LHR, My understanding is that in order to carry fuel you have to burn fuel and as DXB is further from the mid-point than SIN then going via DXB would use more fuel. (or is fuel cheaper in DXB!)

clear to land

3rd Jan 2013, 08:01

donpizmeov

3rd Jan 2013, 09:54

Clear to Land, that would never work as it would mean pilots would need to be promoted. Pilot career progression would come a distant second to leaving the SOs to stay behind and experience the delights of Zinc, whilst keeping the flare path lit in preparation for the pilots to return with stories of their travels to the west. And of how they were descended to 10000' with 160nm to go and told to reduce to 230kts!

The Don

Keg

3rd Jan 2013, 10:32

Run the sector same as EK do to Aus/NZ, 2 x Capt and 2 x F/O. No need for S/O (was there ever a need!!) Relief crew Aus-DXB operate the sectors ex DXB whilst operating crew rtn to Aus following night. Relief crew rtn as augment day after their LHR-DXB. That would be the most efficient way to do it.

How is that any more efficient than running two S/Os (who whilst well paid are still on significantly less than captains and F/Os) between Aus and DXB? The S/Os don't need to wait for the Captain and F/O to get back from LHR, they have their min slip and come back to Australia witha different crew. What am I missing? :hmm:

haughtney1

3rd Jan 2013, 12:02

How is that any more efficient than running two S/Os (who whilst well paid are still on significantly less than captains and F/Os) between Aus and DXB? The S/Os don't need to wait for the Captain and F/O to get back from LHR, they have their min slip and come back to Australia witha different crew. What am I missing?

Absolutely nothing Keg, in fact, that would be the way most operators would do it.
EK however have certain trips that require a Capt and F/O to augment so they can operate the following morning on a shuttle etc.
DXB Perth would be perfect for an S/O, as are a few trips to Africa and Eastern Asia.....but we carry a 2nd F/O as I'm guessing the actual cost difference between an S/O and F/O probably wouldn't be that great when you factor in what is required to get guys to come to here in the first place.

clear to land

3rd Jan 2013, 13:13

Stalins ugly Brother

3rd Jan 2013, 14:02

Ops flexibility. The augment crew can operate the next days pattern whilst the other crew return. Net result-less HOTAC and a reserve crew available in case of sickness-what good is an S/O who can't occupy an operating seat. 2 x CA/FO =2 x crew. 1 x CA/FO + 2 xS/O's = 1 crew.

Management material right there folks! :ugh:

On the grand Scale of things ( recency, etc) second officers are cheap. But overtime paid as well? That's For another thread!

Ducking due Incoming :E

skychild

3rd Jan 2013, 20:49

Rumour has it that the reconfiguration of the QF A380 cabin layouts has been put on hold. Word on the street is that EK is not happy with our new design. Also heard that the 13th and 14th A380 QF has put on hold has now been brought fwd.... Anyone know anything about this?

Keg

3rd Jan 2013, 21:12

Thanks haughtney1. Didn't think so. I still can't quite grasp what it is clear to land is getting at though with his comment that it's going to be more efficient to crew with two Captains and two F/Os rather than utilise S/Os. It doesn't really make a difference.

The augment crew can operate the next days pattern whilst the other crew return.

That still happens with two S/Os though. The Capt and F/O operate the 'next days pattern' whilst the S/Os return. The trip looks identical except that one Captain and one F/O position is replaced with two S/Os.

I see where you're going re sickness and so on however if an F/O goes sick under your regime there is still a service that is short of a crew member- either the shuttle or the return service.

I'll work an example. DXB-MEL-AKL-MEL-DXB. I don't know if it's a daily service but let's presume it is.. Four crew DXB-MEL. EK carry two Captains and two F/Os. QF would carry one captain, one F/O and two S/Os. When the aircraft gets to MEL, all crew have their rest. Augmenting Captain and F/O under the EK head off to do their AKL return whilst the A crew head back to DXB- presumably with the Captain and F/O who operated the MEL-AKL-MEL a couple of days earlier. Under the QF system, the A crew is instead two S/Os who head back to DXB with the Captain and F/O who operated MEL-AKL-MEL a couple of days earlier.

illusion

3rd Jan 2013, 21:27

Jetstar in 614 config.

mohikan

3rd Jan 2013, 22:00

The discussion on crewing numbers for the AUS-DXB-LHR services are interesting but academic.

Reliable information is that as soon a possible, QF will be pulling out of LHR. The reasons for this are as follows:

1. QF has two remaining morning slots at LHR. 0500 and 0600 respectively. Leasing these slots would be worth a motza in KPI's to the various managers involved.

2. EK currently runs 5 A380s per day to LHR and 2 per day to LGW. Ergo, no shortage of capacity to take over the QF flying.

3. As a subset of point 2, I understand that EK has offered QF seats on the above LHR / LGW services at approx 40% less then the current CASK. Whilst this is obviously predatory pricing, it again means more bonus related cash for everyone from "Lovebite" down to "Hailstone" and therefore is being enthusiastically trumpeted as a key pillar of 'saving' the QF international operation.

4. Because of curfew restrictions at SYD, the time that QF aircraft will arrive in DXB means a minimum of 4.5 hour transit for passengers going onwards to european destination. Without the need to fly onwards to LHR, these services can be re-timed.

AEROMEDIC

3rd Jan 2013, 22:33

Word on the street is that EK is not happy with our new design.

Why should this make a difference?

standard unit

3rd Jan 2013, 23:13

Why should this make a difference?

Because they are the organ grinder.

Ka.Boom

4th Jan 2013, 01:55

It seems that Tim Clark is now running Qantas....why do we need SLIC ?

maggot

4th Jan 2013, 02:18

What's not to be happy about? A few loos short? Far from ideal but hardly a major deal.

haughtney1

4th Jan 2013, 03:45

EK currently runs 5 A380s per day to LHR and 2 per day to LGW. Ergo, no shortage of capacity to take over the QF flying.

Errr only partially true, EK currently operate 3 777's to LGW, although I wouldn't imagine it will be too long before 1 rotation goes the way of the 380.
I can see though that QF might think about selling the LHR slots....or at the very least, leasing them to EK.

Because of curfew restrictions at SYD, the time that QF aircraft will arrive in DXB means a minimum of 4.5 hour transit for passengers going onwards to european destination. Without the need to fly onwards to LHR, these services can be re-timed.

Again why the need to do that? why delay an onward flight based on a return sector? SYD-SIN-LHR has a broadly similar overall elapsed flight time to SYD-DXB-LHR, it's almost irrelevant where the tech stop is, so it's a simple exercise based on existing timings to merely schedule the LHR departure to arrive eventually in SYD after curfew ends....just like they do now?
A quick check of EK's schedule shows that it's about a 2 hr transit on the SYD-LHR using EK413-001(Europe is only 1 hr ahead of the UK).
So the curfew argument holds no weight as QF1 is scheduled out of SYD at a bit after 5pm local time SYD.

TIMA9X

4th Jan 2013, 04:26

I understand the concern re the crewing issues above, great to read everyones views, something Mr Sims from the ACCC will not consider I guess as it is not his gig. Maintaining Aussie jobs seems to be a side issue no one will address... In this video Sims indeed gives the QF/EK tie up the thumbs up but a few days later casts doubt over the Virgin/Tiger takeover.... :confused:
TG0r6ntZDMU

SQ have already announced an extra service to London once QF pulls out of Singapore in favour of Dubai. I doubt J* will have an easy time competing with this should Joyce replace the Qantas brand with J* to LHR via Singa's, for me the latter doesn't have the brand power.

I think Ben Sandilands explains the Virgin/Tiger issue better than I can here.

ACCC has doubts about Virgin and Tiger | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2013/01/03/accc-has-doubts-about-virgin-and-tiger/)

by hotnhigh An interesting parallel perhaps?Business-class socialist | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/node/151867)

Yet this youthful, left-leaning boss has hit BA like a whirlwind. Within weeks of his acceding to the throne in January 1996, management heads had rolled and a new structure was in place. By last autumn, he was unveiling his plan to cut £1 billion off BA's annual operating costs over three years. Service activities such as maintenance and catering would be outsourced, leaving only essential operations done in-house. That way BA could focus on running flights, filling them and serving customers in a streamlined “virtual airline”.
British Airways: Care for a downgrade? | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/node/151178)

Where does this former airlines ceo's grand plan stand these days?
The same will be said of Joyce and Cliffords.:ugh::ugh: Thanks for the link hotnhigh, it's a good read, an issue that appears to be where things are currently at with Qantas management, just replace the name Ayling with Joyce...:E

As I was working in the UK when the BA Go fly thing was happening, Ayling who instigated the LCC- Premium two brand strategy came unstuck and was unceremoniously dumped from his job, he managed to upset everyone who had anything to do with BA. Basically he destroyed the place. I compiled a pdf file on this part of BAs history for those interested, https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B85Q80PuZ6Z8emJWMDNsM2VUSms/edit

It's a bit long... but covers most of the issues of that time.. For me, it's frightening to think that none of the big investors can see what Joyce is doing... he is doing a Robert Ayling, it's just the script has changed. I fear Joyce could do more terminal damage to Qantas (than Ayling did to BA) if he is allowed to continue for much longer, everyone I have spoken to over the this holiday period despise him unprompted by me. He is not a good face for Qantas, that I am now convinced of.

Basically we have until the 18th of January for someone to come up with a pretty good argument against the QF/EK tie up or Sims will cast it in stone for the next five years... :ooh:

by busdriver007 Aer Lingus, Open Skies(British Airways) all bloody disasters as the passengers left in droves. Other point is they have been doing it with Atlas Air for years, e.g. Qantas flight numbers, wet leased crew....Remember Australia has only one airline that conforms with the Civil Aviation Navigation Act as Virgin is a majority foreign owned airline...The end is near. The Australian airline industry is f#%^&#ked.....How stupid are the Aussies! 2nd Jan 2013 21:00Pretty much where it is headed in my view as well...

airtags

4th Jan 2013, 04:56

can't believe I'm saying this: - it's a good decision

AT :E

flyinghigh777

4th Jan 2013, 05:30

More to the puzzle:

Qantas is seeking lawyers in Dubai to set up a main operational/head office/admin support base in Dubai. When questioned as to whether it is just to 'implement the different functions of the partnership' the reply was...'no it's well beyond that...it's to set up an operational hub with high level strategic function possibly a head office'.

This is a snapshot of a conversation. Interesting stuff.

DrPepz

4th Jan 2013, 06:17

Actually SQ announced the fourth daily into LHR before the QF-EK tie up. It started in September as a 77W, but will become an A380 from Northern Summer when SQ will have 2 A380s leaving within 90mins of each other for SINLHR.

SQ also announced the 4th daily PER and MEL, while upgrading ADL to year round 12 weekly from July.

Unfortunately or fortunately, SQ's aggressive ramping up of capacity was the main reason that the ACCC didn't see the QF-EK alliance as harmful. If SQ as the largest foreign carrier into Australia said oh we can't compete and we'll cut services, the ACCC would have thought twice. However, SIA and Scoot and Silk Air will soon operate over 130 services a week into Australia, which would more than placate the ACCC.

the_company_spy

4th Jan 2013, 08:01

Why is that airtags?

ohallen

4th Jan 2013, 08:23

Totally consistent with the history of decision making by this lot as there are only two options:

1.Make a decision, spend and then oops, change it.

2 Deciding and then not delivering anything.

No wonder the place is in chaos.

FlexibleResponse

4th Jan 2013, 13:06

When does the first Qantas A380 go to JetStar?

4SPOOLED

5th Jan 2013, 00:37

They already offered.

Jetstar didn't want then :)

Keg

5th Jan 2013, 00:58

J* International is bleeding money using A330s with ordinary load factors and crappy yield. They do OK hiding those figures in the opaque reporting figures captured by including Jetstar's NZ domestic network as part of the 'international' figures. The last thing they want is an A380. It would be then impossible to hide the losses in their reporting.

OzSync

5th Jan 2013, 01:31

Blah blah blah. This conspiracy theory is getting very old keg.

Keg

5th Jan 2013, 01:42

No conspiracy. You can view the numbers yourself. It's alluded to here (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/504166-capa-analysis-hire.html).

So which part do you disagree with?
1. That J* international's reporting is opaque? Ben Sandilands tends to agree if you go back and read his comments relating to J* 'international' over the last 12+ months. This one from very recently is particularly pertinent.

No-one, not even those with forensic accounting skills, seem prepared come clean as to the truth about Jetstar traffic figures and possible confusion between what is international and domestic.

2. That J* International's load factors are ordinary? Their own data suggests that.
3. That J* international's yields are ordinary? Look at the people supposedly carried and the 'profit' they generate to work that one out.

So let me say again (for the dozenth or so time). I acknowledge the important part that J* Australia played in containing Virgin in the domestic market. I'm waiting to see the return on investment for J* international. So far 'bleeding money' seems to be the more accurate descriptor.

skychild

5th Jan 2013, 02:12

Once again the thread drifts completely off track... :=

Bootstrap1

5th Jan 2013, 02:43

Is Emirates upset that the QF 380s don't have enough economy seats and still too many toilets in this config.

Or maybe they want QF to do away with the troublesome first class suites and install the more troublesome shower system.

Or maybe the Emirates crews, tech and cabin, want QF to get rid of the crew rests and replace them with the box they call a crew rest in the back of the economy cabin.

The list could go on. Is it just a rumour or is there some media release to confirm it.
The fleet is about 50% done so far with another in Manila right now. I think this is just a beat up.

hadagutfull

5th Jan 2013, 02:55

If I remember correctly , wasn't 380 no 13 and on going to be configured with no 1st class?
Well if 13 and 14 are going to have accelerated deliveries , as alluded to in PPRUNE, management had better re hash their number of heads to chop...
As the latest cuts are based on current fleet size ... Or so they say..

On a side note, there seems to be a lot more cabin log write ups these days about urine soiled seats .... Seems to coincide with the new config .

Anyway ... Thread drift ...

donpizmeov

5th Jan 2013, 05:27

I can't see why EK would care about the QF 380 config. Its just a codeshare agreement where QF gets to carry all the SYD and MEL QF pax that want to travel to LHR (well at least some of them), and EK gets to carry everyone else.

The Don

I may have it wrong but I can't see it being a good thing for OZ aviation careers.

Mstr Caution

5th Jan 2013, 06:49

Keg,

LCC Longhaul is absolutely the way to go.

I was out at Sydney International Airport recently & checked just how many departures that day were actually LCC's.

With a whooping 7 out of the 85 departures (8% of the total) operated by Air Asia (1), Scoot (1) & Jetstar International (5).

It's a clear sign that the Low Cost Longhaul model is the choice of carrier for International Travellers.

The proof is it the numbers. Can't you see it !!

Out of the 30 different airlines, Qantas Mainline had the majority of aircraft International services at 15 (17% of the total) Or if you choose to include Jetconnect in those figures 24 services (or 28% of total)

MC

B772

5th Jan 2013, 08:17

Doubt if EK have any interest in the subject but I do know EK are concerned about some issues of the agreement and quoting QF incompetence. An example is QF selling PER-SIN with a BA connection to LHR and vice versa.

AEROMEDIC

5th Jan 2013, 11:45

Word on the street is that EK is not happy with our new design.

Once again I ask.....why should it make a difference.

The reconfig is Qantas's idea and to be completed on Qantas a/c.

There is no info to say that under the current "draft "agreement tacitly approved by the ACCC, that would allow EK to dictate such terms to QF
EK was already aware of the config before the agreement.

Sunfish

5th Jan 2013, 19:13

WHat EK will do, if they haven't already done so, is "Map" Qantas management. They will determine who is competent and who isn't as well as who is weak or strong and what the political landscape looks like.

They will then execute the following strategy:

1. Suck the brains out of Qantas management.

2. Manipulate Qantas business strategy to suit EK.

3. Turn Qantas into a virtual EK business unit with no possibility of operating as a stand alone business ever again without major recapitalisation and investment.

The tactics to execute item (1) are:

(a) Hire or second any talented Qantas managers into EK from where they will be tasked with "managing" the relationship with Qantas

(b) Arranging the firing of any talented Qantas manager who won't get with the EK program. This is easily done by a word in Alan Joyces ear that "XXX is threatening the success of our brilliant partnership".

Executing item (2) is simply done by telling the remaining (dumb) Qantas managers that they should take advantage of EK's capabilities to achieve even bigger cost savings by closing Australian operations in favour of using EK's. That will no doubt include "harmonising" training and operational regimes between the companies as far as possible over time.

Again, anyone who won't suck up to EK and do their bidding will be fired on the grounds that they are threatening the success of Alans brilliant business decision. I would expect that even the dumbest Qantas manager would know that by now.

The resulting deskilling and disinvestment leaves Qantas totally dependent on EK by the end of the agreement

Maybe, EK interests in the QF A380 program is the first step in this direction?

markis10

5th Jan 2013, 21:16

I doubt JQ has anything to do with the rumor, as for their loads, they are not bad if you look at the BITRE figures for Sept (In/Out)

Jetstar
China
67.8 72.7
Fiji
79.5 87.6
Indonesia
80.1 85.9
Japan
60.3 75.8
New Zealand
71.6 77.7
Philippines -
.. 82.2
Singapore
68.7 73.1
Thailand
71.3 77.9
USA
78.4 89.5
Jetstar ALL SERVICES
71.0 79.4

Jetstar Asia Singapore
73.4 81.9

Qantas Airways
Chile
74.8 90.2
China
74.7 82.3
Germany
88.9 91.2
Hong Kong (SAR)
77.3 69.4
Indonesia
73.7 84.1
Japan
74.1 93.3
New Caledonia
78.9 87.4
New Zealand
67.7 71.2
Papua New Guinea
70.8 64.3
Philippines
78.7 82.0
Singapore
79.4 78.0
South Africa
85.6 85.1
Thailand
89.8 90.3
UK
91.7 87.0

22k

5th Jan 2013, 22:33

Looking at those load factors, can someone smarter than me please explain why they are pulling out of Frankfurt!?!? What am I missing here?

Terrey

5th Jan 2013, 22:41

Frankfurt making International Mainline look too good. Got to be seen to be loosing money so they can push the Jetstar and reform line 😥.

bddbism

5th Jan 2013, 23:20

What are the overheads?! Jetstar I suppose. If they can't turn a profit with 80%+ loads, perhaps a clean out of the costing department is needed instead of burying half the airline.

Qantas 787

6th Jan 2013, 00:19

Quote: Looking at those load factors, can someone smarter than me please explain why they are pulling out of Frankfurt!?!? What am I missing here?
Filling a plane is easy. Filling it with passengers willing to pay a fare that will make a profit is a different story.

skkm

6th Jan 2013, 00:26

Anyone know what the QF A380 was doing up in Dubai? Was there 2 days ago?
Medical diversion.

V-Jet

6th Jan 2013, 23:34

I was sent this email by a mate, I apologise if it has been seen before, but it makes interesting reading. Nothing new really, just the same old depressing game plan we know and love:(

It amazes me how poorly researched "investigative journalists" in this country
really are. They generally regurgitate company spin and never really look at
the numbers in any great detail.

Jetstar was never a good idea; no full service carrier in the world has
successfully managed to do what Qantas management have attempted to do.

Jetstar Asia has never made a true operating profit. It has bled Qantas to the
tune of $70M + per annum since its inception in 2004. Loss to the group
$500-700M.

Jetstar Pacific prior to its nationalisation by the Vietnamese government in
2012 cost its parent $50-60M per annum just to keep the doors open, stated by
the CEO of that airline himself in the Vietnamese Post. Do a simple google
Ticky. Founded in 2007 thats at least $200M blown.

Jetstar HK. $100M and they haven't even got approval yet.

Jetstar Japan another $100M.

Jetstar international ex Australia, $500M loss, its inception in 2008
dovetails neatly with QF international's sliding "profitability". QF
international is not haemorrhaging money of its own accord, it is paying for
all these disasters out of its operating profit. Where else do you think the
money is coming from??

John Borghetti himself stated privately that Jetstar has never made a cent in
any of its incarnations. A simple close look at load factors vs revenue of
each operating segment shows that. Yet the mainstream media just regurgitates
the tripe QF management has been spinning for years.

The only reason these airlines where created was to park 110 Airbus A320's.
Aircraft whose leases were going to GAAM amongst others, routed through
Ireland and onto the Caymans and The British Virgin Islands. Guess who was
profiting from those?

That's the primary reason why Joyce was placed by Dixon in the top job and why
Borghetti was sidelined. Because he wouldn't play ball. Buchanan was fired
because he wrote a paper outlining the fact that the low cost carrier model
does not work beyond 5 hours flight time. In house legal resigned, company
secretary resigned, company auditor, resigned. All left the sinking ship
fearing the mother of all corporate collapses.

Joyce took it too far due to his ego being completely bound by the folly that
is Jetstar and was facing a corporate collapse soon enough due to his utter
ineptitude and inability to run an airline. Any airline.

They were trying desperately to do a deal with Temasek in Singapore until the
11th hour but couldn't get it over the line for the simple reason that SQ
management detest Qantas management, as do Cathay. Joyce was a dead man
walking and in desperate need of any deal to save his skin.

Emirates saw a bleeding man and took full advantage. Qantas is doomed with
this man at the helm and frankly it is a sad state of affairs where a Dixon
alternative is the preferred option.

Simple maths, the year Joyce became CEO in 2008 Jetstar international ex
Australia was launched. The Qantas group made a $1.6BN profit in 2008 of which
Jetstar's domestic reported contribution was a negligible amount, less that
10% of the total. A figure which in itself is questionable seeing as Jetstar's
costs have always been subsidized by QF international. This was on the back of
multiple record profits over many years.

Every year Joyce has been CEO has seen a substantial drop in operating profit,
share price, no dividend etc, culminating in a disastrous grounding which cost
over $200M, a massive figure allocated of course to the international division
and pre-planned long in advance of it actually taking place.

The often quoted drop in passenger numbers to 18% of the total Australian
traffic is again, a furphy faithfully regurgitated by the Chairman's lounged
mainstream financial media.

The Qantas group still holds 28% of the total, 10% of Qantas International's
traffic having been gifted to Jetstar International and Jetconnect since 2008,
neither entity having made a profit since inception. This "gifting" dovetails
precisely with Qantas International's supposed demise. The gifting of that 10%
not only cost mainline 100's of millions in set up and operating costs it also
robbed mainline of the revenue it would have earned throughout this time. A
double whammy. The Qantas group incidentally held 34% at the time of
privatisation in 1992.

All for a series of Jetstar airlines that no one aside from those who work
there, the hapless CEO who "created" it , and the bankers at GAAM and Investec
who profited from the aircraft leases generated by their expansion, would
mourn its passing if they were made to stand on their own two feet.

A shareholder activist take over of control at QF would be the best thing that
could happen at this time. This is a completely different proposition to the
APA bid, a bid incidentally that Joyce was a great cheerleader for and which
would have netted him in excess of $20M had it gone through, something he has
conveniently forgotten now. One wonders how much he will be making out of the
Emirates deal if it goes ahead. A question nobody seems to be asking, if
Qantas is such a basket case, why are the ex managers of the business so keen
to buy it? What do they know that the market hasn't been told?

Qantas should not be in this position, however now that it is, it is a matter
of national security if nothing else that the Emirates deal is stopped and the
senior management and Board are replaced with people who have full service
airline experience, many of whom (me included) jumped ship and are now happily
at Virgin under Borghetti, the man who should have gotten the nod in the first
place.

In his own words to a management conference call not so long ago, "We have
nothing to worry about whilst Joyce is running Qantas."

Bootstrap1

7th Jan 2013, 04:10

Has anyone noticed the steady climb of the Qantas share price over the last few weeks.
$1.57 today, it is improving but I am not sure what new has come out to trigger this.

600ft-lb

7th Jan 2013, 04:24

the share buy backs.

07/01/2013 Daily share buy-back notice - Appendix 3E 2 PDF -
04/01/2013 Daily share buy-back notice - Appendix 3E 2 PDF -
03/01/2013 Daily share buy-back notice - Appendix 3E 2 PDF -

haughtney1

7th Jan 2013, 04:34

Qantas should not be in this position, however now that it is, it is a matter
of national security if nothing else that the Emirates deal is stopped and the
senior management and Board are replaced with people who have full service

First time I've seen this, but I struggle to see how this is a "national security" issue....is the author suggesting that EK will be basing military assets in Oz and will be impinging on Oz sovereignty? Last time I looked, QF was a publically listed organisation with a few obvious ownership caveats...but national security? give me a break..typical one eyed scare mongering.
Ultimately the board view their responsibilities as being answerable to the shareholders at large. Why has the collective and vocal opposition to this deal not got together and put a coherent bid in place to overtly remove the deal makers? The answer to that is simple...they won't because it's going to cost a lot of money..and won't make as much money in the near term.
In the cold harsh commercial reality of aviation, QF is a basket case of fractured unions, inefficient practices and is being pulled in different directions by different factions....it is no different to countless other former state run entities around the world that have struggled after being privatised.

600ft-lb

7th Jan 2013, 05:34

Why has the collective and vocal opposition to this deal not got together and put a coherent bid in place to overtly remove the deal makers?
More so in my opinion(you know what they say about those), as evident by the shareholder actual votes relating to remuneration packages etc, its the big superannuation and investment fund managers who hold the proxy voting rights are looking after their own.

What goes around comes around in the 'big end' of town, just look at the make up of the boards in this country and you see the same circle of matey mates sitting in on public companies raking in the big dollars to attend perhaps a dozen meetings a year and 'set a direction' and act as the corporate conscience.

Whilst almost every Australian with a superannuation account owns a small slice of Qantas unknowingly, they don't own the ability to dictate a vote.

In the cold harsh commercial reality of aviation, QF is a basket case of fractured unions, inefficient practices and is being pulled in different directions by different factions
Which is the case due to complicit Qantas IR through the years. Qantas IR sets the tone for negotiations. I've never seen any negotiation which hasn't been met with delay, ambit claim, underhandedness and just general disrepsect in all senses from the IR department. They may say its 'robust' negotiations but at the end of the day, morale is driven from the top down.. They may have had a far more compliant workforce in terms of 'driving change' if they hadn't tried to stab their staff in the back with a dodgy EBA at every turn.

halas

7th Jan 2013, 05:47

The article quoted sounds like the 1st of April will be end of the earth (QF) to me.

A bit like the 22nd of December. It was the same as the the day before and the one before that.....

It's a code share with no equity involved :sad:

halas

Crusty Demon

7th Jan 2013, 09:23

The flood gates never opened last time. Only about 10 went.

The deal will involve a great reduction in QF international services. With that comes excess crew. However, the ACCC approval is required, hence no announcements yet until this is done. To make announcements that lead to job losses will result in political pressure on the ACCC which may go against the whole deal, or put restrictions neither party wants in place.

As soon as the ink is dry on final regulatory approval, the plans will be laid out. Then the blood will be shed.

QF management has more than once made statements to the effect of wait until late this month for announcements on our new Asian schedule. A schedule to be operated by EK on more routes than not.

busdriver007

7th Jan 2013, 19:08

haughtney1, Most countries have a national carrier to call upon to rescue it's citizens when they are in trouble. The US has the "Fly America" policy that requires all US military to be carried on US registered aircraft flown by US citizens. The recent North Queensland cyclones showed that Australia do not have an adequate navy to service the country when needed as NO Australian navy ships were available to provide support to North Queensland so the NZ Navy was brought in before being called out to their own emergency at home when earthquakes hit the South Island. Australia only have 22 ships in it's merchant fleet because everything else has been cabataged out to foreign flagged ships hence the changes to the Maritime Act. Our aviation industry is the most open in the world except may be New Zealand but hardly a bigger deal as the Australian market. Any overseas carrier can set up a 100% foreign owned airline in Australia and cherry pick where they want to operate.Yes Qantas is a private company but it is still governed by the Qantas Sale Act for exactly the reasons given above. As our mainline fleet shrinks our citizens will be flown more and more through the Middles East that could potentially be caught up in a conflict surrounding Iran. Military Cuts will continue and as an Island nation sitting in the middle of the Asia/Pacific region we rely on aviation more than most. We don't even refine our own oil anymore....

Mstr Caution,
The argument is not whether LCCs are here to stay, it is the fact that on their own the Long-Haul LCC does not work, simple as that. If Jetstar was so successful why does it need Qantas, simple question, not yet answered.

Jackneville

7th Jan 2013, 19:39

Will offering LWOP facilitate CR ?

......there is always a reason.

hotnhigh

7th Jan 2013, 20:04

The comment "that this is a great example of the opportunities that will become available as we work towards the proposed partnership with emirates." wrt lwop sends shivers down one spine.
Perhaps it could be read, 'please ladies and gents take this "opportunity" so the final numbers we cull, wont look as bad on paper.' and of course we will facilitate easy transfer of your jobs offshore to another entity and hope you enjoy the rest of your career in such jurisdictions.'
Wonder if the chief is ready to take up his position in the bottom of the queue in dubai or is too busy trying to plan this years summer school in his down time?

dflyer

7th Jan 2013, 22:18

Emirates Wants to Extend Qantas Pact for Pacific Routes

By David Fickling - Jan 8, 2013 2:00 AM GMT+0800

Emirates, the world’s largest airline by international traffic, said it wants to extend its alliance with Qantas Airways Ltd. (QAN) (http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/QAN:AU) across the Pacific Ocean, allowing passengers to fly round the world on Airbus SAS A380s.
The carriers have scope to link Qantas’s A380 flights into Los Angeles (http://topics.bloomberg.com/los-angeles/) with routes the Gulf carrier seeks to operate from its Dubai hub, Emirates President Tim Clark (http://topics.bloomberg.com/tim-clark/) said in a phone interview. The partnership won provisional approval from Australia’s antitrust regulator last month.
“If the timing is right and the two aircraft meet, with Qantas and Emirates you could go around the world with A380s, which is a cool proposition,” he said yesterday. “I’m sure we could do trans-Pacific business on Qantas metal as part of this overall deal.”
Emirates would push for the alliance’s extension into transpacific routes -- some of the most profitable for Qantas -- only if the Australian carrier’s Chief Executive Officer Alan Joyce and his management back the idea, Clark said. Shares of the Sydney-based airline have risen more than 30 percent since the partnership was announced in September as Joyce restructures operations to end overseas losses.
Clark said a tie-up across the Pacific Ocean (http://topics.bloomberg.com/pacific-ocean/) was left out of the discussions for the current alliance because “the trans- Pacific is Qantas territory.” Still, the regulator’s initial approval doesn’t prevent the carriers from exploring the option, he said.
The companies could also link their routes into Dallas, Clark said. Qantas may fly the Boeing Co. (BA) (http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/BA:US) 787 into Dubai once it starts receiving the composite-bodied planes, he said.
A380 Terminal

Emirates, which opened the world’s first dedicated A380 terminal at its Dubai hub, may need about 30 more of the double- decker superjumbos, Clark said. The carrier is studying ways to increase the range of the aircraft to allow it to run services to Los Angeles, as well as Houston and San Francisco (http://topics.bloomberg.com/san-francisco/), he said.
The existing partnership, due to start in April, will let Qantas sell tickets to 60 new one-stop destinations in Europe (http://topics.bloomberg.com/europe/), the Middle East and Africa (http://topics.bloomberg.com/africa/) via Emirates’ Dubai hub. The tie-up would also help it overhaul Asian schedules.
Under the planned accord, the airlines intend to coordinate pricing, sales and scheduling, as well as aligning frequent- flyer programs so passengers can earn points on both the carriers’ flights. Emirates will gain access to Qantas’ Australia and New Zealand (http://topics.bloomberg.com/new-zealand/) network under the deal.
European Hub

Qantas, which lost A$450 million ($472 million) on international operations in the year ended June, will shift its European hub to Dubai from Singapore (http://topics.bloomberg.com/singapore/). The carrier is also abandoning a 17-year partnership with British Airways and ending a loss-making Frankfurt route alongside the agreement.
The conditional approval by the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission, granted Dec. 20, broadly backed the tie-up. It would let the carriers ally for five years rather than the proposed 10, and regulate the speed at which they could add capacity on flights between Australia (http://topics.bloomberg.com/australia/) and New Zealand.
“The ACCC allows us to do that kind of thing,” he said about the possibility of extending the alliance. “Getting up fares and meshing a product that takes people and keeps them in the Qantas-Emirates network.”

porch monkey

7th Jan 2013, 22:58

Hahahaha, well ****, there's a surprise........:hmm:

Oakape

7th Jan 2013, 23:04

Anyone else think that that was what they were after all along? What a surprise - not!

mightyauster

7th Jan 2013, 23:05

I can hear SQ bleating right now...

Mstr Caution

7th Jan 2013, 23:51

Busdriver007

The post was tongue in cheek.

Every international airline flying thru Sydney was full service long haul, bar the three mentioned (scoot, air Asia x & Jetstar)

Of which 5 of the 7 LCC services offered that day were Jetstar.

I believe that is a true indication as to how "other" airline CEO's view LCC flying longhaul in the region.

If descent returns were available, why don't the other 28 airlines servicing Sydney that day have a LCC no frills subsidiary servicing the market as well.

moa999

8th Jan 2013, 00:58

So an EK codeshare on a QF transpac flight. big deal.

fishers.ghost

8th Jan 2013, 01:33

Busines Spectator
Stephen Bartholowmeusz
With the ink barely dry on the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission’s clearance of his alliance with Qantas, Emirates’ Tim Clark is already musing aloud about another dimension to the relationship.

Less than three weeks ago the ACCC approved, with some conditions, the alliance on routes between Australia and Europe which will see Qantas re-directing its traffic through Emirates’ hub in Dubai as part of an arrangement that will see the carriers co-ordinate capacity, pricing, product, frequent flyer programs and share revenues.

Clark, in an interview with Bloomberg published today, indicated he would like to extend the relationship to the trans-Pacific route – but only (self-evidently) if Alan Joyce and his team liked the idea.

The trans-Pacific is, as Clarke said, "Qantas territory". It dominates that route, which historically has been highly profitable. While it has restructured its services to shift some of its focus from the west coast of the US to Dallas/Fort Worth, the main hub for its US ally American Airlines, the route and its services to Los Angeles remains a core element of its diminished international network.

That makes an alliance with Emirates on the route a more sensitive issue than the routes into Europe, where Qantas had withdrawn or was withdrawing from all destinations other than Heathrow as it sought to stem the heavy bleeding within its international business, which has lost nearly $700 million in the past two years.

It is interesting and potentially relevant that Emirates is also seeking a closer relationship with American, with which it has an informal relationship at present. American is close to emerging from bankruptcy and is also considering a proposal to merge with US Airways.

Qantas has a long-standing relationship with American and code shares to more than 50 destinations in North America and Mexico.

Emirates isn’t a member of one of the three global aviation alliances – Oneworld, Star Alliance and SkyTeam – preferring what Clark refers to as tactical partnerships that deliver specific benefits. Closer relationships with Qantas and American would deliver the carriers a form of global alliance of their own.

As Clark said to Bloomberg, an alliance with Qantas would enable passengers to fly around the world on Airbus A380s "if the timing is right and the two aircraft meet". He said he was sure Emirates could do business on the trans-Pacific with Qantas "metal" as part of a deal.

Joyce would presumably only be interested in sharing access to the trans-Pacific route and revenues from it if there were a significant net benefit. Qantas has fought fiercely to keep other carriers off the route, although United, a joint venture between Virgin and Delta and Air New Zealand do compete on it.

The global industry is, however, changing rapidly with new alliances and equity tie-ups now occurring routinely. Given the obstacles to conventional relationships, most of the major carriers (and Virgin Australia very aggressively in this market) are now pursuing elements of a virtual network strategy.

American’s routes across the Atlantic, for instance, where it has a dominant alliance with British Airways, could be threatened by Delta’s recent purchase of Singapore Airlines’ 49 per cent stake in Virgin Atlantic and the proposed cost and revenue-sharing arrangements between the carriers. Delta also has pre-existing alliances with KLM, Air France and Alitalia.

The prospect of a trans-Pacific alliance wasn’t raised in the discussions about the existing relationship, which formally starts in April, and would need to undergo a separate approval process with the ACCC.

For Joyce, Clark’s thoughts create some multi-dimensional issues. A wider relationship with Emirates that included linking their routes into and out of the US could have some positive financial impacts but there are also longer term strategic issues to consider into binding itself even closer to one of the world’s largest and fastest-growing airlines and giving it access, directly or indirectly, to the trans-Pacific.

Those issues aren’t necessarily negative but they are complex and Joyce, as he had to in entering the alliance in the first instance, has to balance the short term imperative of stabilising his international business with a long-term strategic view of Qantas’ eventual position in the ever-evolving global industry.

V-Jet

8th Jan 2013, 02:56

If descent returns were available, why don't the other 28 airlines servicing Sydney that day have a LCC no frills subsidiary servicing the market as well.

Descent returns are the problem with LCC's - thats why no one else uses them...

Or did you mean decent:):):):):):)

A cheap joke, but I couldn't afford a good one, I'm saving money everywhere to allow for slic's next triumph:ugh:

Angle of Attack

8th Jan 2013, 07:46

There are no decent returns on International LCC . If jetstar was sold off it would collapse within a few months, even blind freddy could see that. Might work to bali or sin but any longer it doesnt match up. On every measure Joyce has been to Qantas what Sol Trujillo was to Telstra. The only slight hope that a competent team came in and improved Telstra, unfortunately all the narcissists have infected Qantas and I seriously doubt it will happen. I still am in amazement that no one in the media have put 2 and 2 together, FFS just look at the financial indicators since the Joyce took over..... It aint rocket science! He is totally inept.

V-Jet

8th Jan 2013, 10:51

If AJ was the answer, then how $$&));())$ stupid was the question????

Same for the govt really.

TIMA9X

8th Jan 2013, 16:52

Pulling out all stops

When Qantas partners with Emirates next year and overshoots Singapore in favour of Dubai on the old Kangaroo Route, it'll represent one of Australian travel's biggest shake-ups, writes Julietta Jameson in this special stopovers guide.

The Kangaroo Route is dead! Long live the kangaroo route! In April, barring any last-minute hitches, Qantas will no longer touch ground in south-east Asia on its way from Australia to Europe.

Read more: Best stopovers from Australia to Europe | Pulling out the stops (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/pulling-out-all-stops-20121229-2c05l.html#ixzz2HPIQ0ylw)

Painful reading... :sad:

Sunfish

8th Jan 2013, 20:46

Tim9:

Qantas will no longer touch ground in south-east Asia on its way from Australia to Europe.

Thank God! I'm looking forward to a Bogan free Singapore and KL.

goodonyamate

8th Jan 2013, 21:23

Thank God! I'm looking forward to a Bogan free Singapore and KL.

ummmm....jetstar still fly around there so the bogans and great unwashed remain!!

Taildragger67

9th Jan 2013, 01:53

ummmm....jetstar still fly around there so the bogans and great unwashed remain!!

As a result, the concentration of bogans at Changi may, if anything, increase... :eek:

Back to a previous point: if BNE-SIN reverts to a 333 to allow MEL-SIN to be a 744, then what's the plan for SYD-SIN? I realise QF5/6 has had a reprieve for the time being, however is SIN-FRA going to continue indefinitely? Is the ultimate plan for SYD-SIN to be 744 (plus the QF81/82 A332) regardless of the ultimate fate of SIN-FRA?

DrPepz

9th Jan 2013, 03:44

Nearly nobody from Jetstar Australia connects into Jetstar Asia, so I've not seen any bogans on Jetstar Asia. I fly Jetstar Asia a lot, and they have always been on time, have new planes and have a very respectable client base. Plenty of business people use them and I have seen many passengers with SIA PPS tags on their hand carry luggage. In fact I gladly fly Jetstar Asia to KL, Manila and Jakarta for work. The schedules are sometimes better, with an early morning departure to Manila, and a 9pm departure from Manila, whereas SQ's earliest flight leaves SIN at 0930, and its latest flight leaves MNL at 1830-1900, making a day trip from SIN impossible.

Plenty of bogans in Bali though.

By the way, it is not likely that QF will be serving SYDSIN more than once daily within 12 months.

crosscutter

9th Jan 2013, 03:50

Qantas adds new flights to Singapore - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller (http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-adds-new-flights-to-singapore)

A refresher of the announced changes. A quick search still shows 747 and premium economy for sale from BNE-SIN post April. MEL-SIN the same. SYD-SIN the same post Oct.

Maybe 747 retirement schedule to change? :rolleyes:

We will just have to wait and see what happens when all those bogan 330's return to the mother. What's the word inside the shining star regarding those crew members' future?

TIMA9X

9th Jan 2013, 12:21

Thank God! I'm looking forward to a Bogan free Singapore and KL. I wasn't thinking about bogans when I posted the story..... every airline carries their fair share of bogans, some more than others, it's all part of the fun of flying in and out of Australia I guess..

I was thinking about the huge business risk AJ is taking if the EK/QF thing doesn't turn out to be what QF and the ACCC think will happen... I shudder just thinking about it.. asking myself the question, "What if people still prefer to fly via SE Asia to LHR with no Australian alternative AUS/LHR via SE Asia, seamless.... ??

Traditionally Australians flying to Europe stop somewhere in Asia, way before the term "bogan" became well entrenched in the Aussie vernacular. It really wasn't long ago when Q was two stops to LHR via SE Asian and a Gulf port.(been there done that stuff) 742-3 days when everyone was happy and you were addressed as Mr or Mrs Bogan. :)

At the time most people preferred an Asian stopover compared to the Gulf, for whatever reason.

When the 744s adopted the route making it one stop via BKK or SIN to LHR. the Gulf ports became fly overs, forgotten. Enter, EK etc etc you know the rest... EK and their Gulf mates were the enemy, suddenly, alas, great mates woof, all is forgotten..., only joking ...

I am sure I remember AJ saying something like, we have to embrace Asia. (sic) so what does he do?

Moves everything Qantas to Dubai...:ugh:

antheads

9th Jan 2013, 13:43

I was thinking about the huge business risk AJ is taking if the EK/QF thing doesn't turn to be what QF and the ACCC think will happen... I shudder to think.. if people still prefer to fly via SE Asia with no Australian alternative AUS/LHR via SE Asia, seamless.but but.. look at all those glowing reviews of dubai airport on skytrax! (http://www.airlinequality.com/Airports/Airport_forum/dxb.htm)

The airport is huge and looks impressive, but on the inside it has been very poorly designed, space is very badly used, the focus is on shopping, there is lack of seating, lack of toilets (also not clean), lack of places to eat. There was no thought put into the airport experience that you find in Singapore, Hong Kong, Seoul

One of the worst airports I've ever visited. I was exhausted by the time I arrived here at one in the morning after a decidedly uncomfortable flight and was therefore looking forward to what I had thought would be a swanky modern airport befitting a gulf state famous for the emphasis it places on customer service. I was obviously wrong. With its endless rows of Duty Free shops, the airport functions more like a shopping mall than a travel terminal, and lacks the sort of facilities other less wealthy places have. Sweated like a pig wandering around trying to find a restaurant or café that wasn't besieged by swarms of equally thirsty passengers. Not only were the crowds nigh impossible to navigate through, but throughout my entire four- hour long ordeal here I never managed to find a seat; like many others I was instead forced to squat it out on the floor some distance away from my gate. The inexcusable lack of toilets is further compounded by their filthiness - although there were attendants inside the three which I visited, none had any opportunity to actually clean the place due to the queues.

Plus the fact if you don't have a doctors note for your psychoactive perscription medication expect to be detained/jailed. How many unsuspecting families will be caught up in that?

donpizmeov

9th Jan 2013, 14:21

Hasn't seemed to be problem in the decade and a bit I have been over there Antheads. Are you suggesting that QF pax are not as bright as the 100s of millions of pax that have been using DXB in the past?

I seem to remember some well hung Ozzies in Malaysia, Singas and Bangkok and yet QF pax seem to handle that ok.

The Don

Three Wire

9th Jan 2013, 14:27

I think you really mean stretched Don.

antheads

9th Jan 2013, 16:26

@Don

I think you misunderstand me, i'm not talking about illegals just your garden variety medicines. This article sumarizes the problem perfectly. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/7801410/Dubai-warning-to-travellers-over-prescription-medicine.html)

Many medicines that are prescribed in Britain and even sold over the counter are considered to be controlled substances in the UAE and must be accompanied by a prescription. Among them are cough and cold remedies and linctus for children. Pain relievers and antidepressants such as amitryptiline, Prozac and Seroxat are treated similarly, while the possession of poppy seeds, such as those used for baking, could lead to a four-year jail term. In fact there was an individual who was jailed for 4 years for inadvertently bringing a poppy seed bun (ham & cheese?) which he had purchased before boarding

@three wire
In regards to the qf pax? :E

haughtney1

9th Jan 2013, 18:14

Antheads, whilst its true that in certain parts of the ME, there are some rather stringent interpretations regarding what the authorities consider controlled substances, the vast majority of passengers merely transit DXB, which means you don't clear customs, nor do you enter the country.
What that essentially does is lower the risk that you may inadvertently import something that is prohibited, but just like Oz, ignorance is no defence.
There are plenty of websites dedicated to this very subject for any number of countries around the world....if the travelling public choose to ignore the pertinent info that's available...then more fool them.

The last paragraph in the article sums things up perfectly..
According to the medical department of the United Arab Embassy in London, any medication is acceptable if it has been prescribed by a doctor and the passenger has a prescription including name, address and date of birth.
Where is the ambiguity in that?

Taildragger67

10th Jan 2013, 02:11

Haughtney,

Last time I transited DXB (early-2009), I had a 6-hour layover so hotel accommodation was provided.

This was close to, but off the airport and required immigration and customs clearance.

There was a case (http://news.sky.com/story/583101/cannabis-shoe-brit-freed-from-dubai-jail) not long before that of a Brit who spent the better part of 2008 in the local lock-up for having something the size of a grain of sand, caught in the tread of his shoes.

And if you need melatonin to help you sleep on your slip, well, don't. And don't have it in your bloodstream, either.

haughtney1

10th Jan 2013, 05:44

Haughtney,

Last time I transited DXB (early-2009), I had a 6-hour layover so hotel accommodation was provided.

This was close to, but off the airport and required immigration and customs clearance.

There was a case not long before that of a Brit who spent the better part of 2008 in the local lock-up for having something the size of a grain of sand, caught in the tread of his shoes.

And if you need melatonin to help you sleep on your slip, well, don't. And don't have it in your bloodstream, either.

Quick question taildragger, we're you aware that you would be clearing customs?
The implication is that you weren't...if so why not? or more to the point was it something that you didn't consider? or weren't informed would be happening?
Like I said, where ever you go, you should be aware of the local laws and customs relating to medication, alcohol, cigarettes and anything else that comes under the radar of customs.
For example I know going into Oz or NZ bio-security is a big thing, it's just the way it is...no stress.
The authorities in the UAE generally don't want to bang up foreigners, and particularly in Dubai they realise it is bad PR, most of the cases that make it to the press have far more to them than just the headline, and as the quote from the official says..if you've got a prescription with the relevant details..you have nothing to worry about.

Taildragger67

10th Jan 2013, 07:21

H1, your question is fair and reasonable.

In early-2009, I was unaware I'd be leaving the terminal as it was the then-brand new T3 at DXB (which had opened whilst I was travelling); my prior experience in the previous terminal was that you'd have to while away a long layover in the EK lounge (which had rooms available). That lounge was airside and within the customs area.

It was only when I got to the check-in at the African port and asked to book a room in the EK lounge, that I was told that accommodation for the layover was off-site and a voucher issued for it. Hence no, I had not really considered it.

This wasn't an issue for me in terms of carrying anything untoward; I think I may have had some ibuprofen which I ditched. The only issue was the transfers & hotel check-in/out detracting from my sleep time.

However think about the case of someone who, due to food allergies, may travel with epinephrine, for which no prescription is required in Australia. That person should not have to risk going to jail for carrying something for the purposes of saving their life.

I agree your point re local laws & customs, however WRT the comparison of carrying fruit into Aus - we don't tend to bang anyone up for inadvertently carrying an apple in.

My point is that there are shades of grey. If you market yourself as a worldly place, you have to have worldly attitudes. Giving someone a 4-year stretch for (possibly accidentally) carrying something which clearly would not undermine order amongst the local populace is arguably somewhat stiff.

Tidbinbilla

10th Jan 2013, 10:42

Let's get back on topic, please ;)

V-Jet

11th Jan 2013, 11:30

Let's get back on topic, please :)

You are wise beyond your years. Any chance of speaking to the QF Board? They need that advice more than anyone else!

TIMA9X

13th Jan 2013, 12:53

Sims rejects call for forensic Qantas audit (http://www.afr.com/p/national/sims_rejects_call_for_forensic_qantas_21F3x9trIOAQD8RTp3D4bM )

PUBLISHED: 0 hour 32 MINUTES AGO | UPDATE: 0 hour 6 MINUTES AGO

Australian Competition and Consumer Commission chairman Rod Sims has dismissed calls to take a closer look at Qantas’s finances as it finalises its decision on the airline’s alliance with Emirates, saying there is not enough competitive detriment to warrant a more forensic examination. Nick Xenophon (http://afr.com/opinion) Sims must seek satisfaction on Qantas alliance

PUBLISHED: 0 hour 35 MINUTES AGO | UPDATE: 0 hour 30 MINUTES AGO

Rod Sims, chairman of the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, may well be pondering the lyrics of Mick Jagger’s Satisfaction in the coming weeks as he grapples with the proposed Qantas/Emirates allianceVery sorry, the stories are behind the AFR paywall.... I don't have access on this computer.. Can anyone oblige?

many thanks in advance..

Qantas-Emirates giveaway challenged by Senator Xenophon | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2013/01/14/qantas-emirates-giveaway-challenged-by-senator-xenophon/)

Senator Xenophon has entered the struggle between those who want to give Qantas away to Emirates, and those who want to flog it to private equity and plunder the good bits, with a bid to make the ACCC probe deeper into its internal finances. This isn’t going to end well for anyone.

A last minute effort by independent SA Senator, Nick Xenophon, to broaden the ACCC’s consideration of its provisional approval of the proposed Qantas-Emirates ‘partnership’ has been simultaneously suggested and rejected in today’s AFR.

Ramboflyer 1

14th Jan 2013, 05:12

It would appear QF WILL AQUIre some of EKS 777s to operate from Dubai to destinations in Europe where the Emirates reciprocal or landing rights are exhausted. The 777 s will be in QF colors with Emirates crew operating to save on wages and training costs.
These new flights will connect hopefully to extra QF A380s from all ports in Australia.
Its a big advantage for QF BUT NOT MUCH GAIN FOR THE QF staff , one would have to be concerned that the A380 flying could also become a wet lease due to the savings possible.
QF domestic will be at an advantage with the extra on carriage.:ok:

OneDotLow

14th Jan 2013, 05:35

The 777 s will be in QF colors with Emirates crew operating to save on wages and training costs.

Surely the JPC can stitch up a deal to undercut the EK boys!? :ugh:

chuboy

14th Jan 2013, 08:20

TheWholeEnchilada

14th Jan 2013, 20:08

Qantas-Emirates link forces Cathay Pacific to rethink network strategy

The Hong Kong flag carrier could lose its 'kangaroo route' passengers to alliance that is offering more destinations in Europe from Dubai

The proposed alliance between Australian carrier Qantas Airways and Dubai's Emirates could lure so-called "kangaroo route" passengers away from Cathay Pacific Airways.

The move will force Hong Kong's flag carrier to rethink its network strategy as an increasing number of carriers form bilateral agreements to increase their competitiveness.

The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission last month released a draft ruling proposing to allow the airlines to co-operate on passenger and freight operations across their networks. But it plans to limit the deal to five years because of concerns about the impact of the alliance on airline competition between Australia and New Zealand.

Although the final decision will not be made until April 1, it is highly likely that Emirates and Qantas could win approval and proceed to a comprehensive alignment on their schedules, air fares and products, so as to increase traffic between Australia and Europe through Dubai.

The so-called kangaroo route is an important revenue source for Cathay, which uses Hong Kong as a hub to transit passengers between the two continents.

The airline carried more than 120,000 passengers between Europe and Australasia last year, said Rupert Hogg, the director of sales and marketing at Cathay.

"The kangaroo route has always been an important component of Cathay's network," Hogg told the South China Morning Post.

"Cathay pioneered long-haul non-stop flights from Hong Kong to Europe in the late 1980s and this, combined with the attractiveness of Hong Kong as a stopover and our extensive network into Australasia, ensured that we were a key player in this market from its inception."

But the marketing niche offered by Emirates exposes a weakness in Cathay's network. That is because Emirates can offer 33 destinations in Europe from Dubai while Cathay flies to only seven European cities now.

"The points beyond Dubai are of interest to many Australians," said Tim Clark, the chief executive of Emirates. "Working together with Qantas, we have the prospect of having a strong relationship."

"Cathay should ask itself how to add more destinations to Europe through its own network or through partnership," said Will Horton, a senior analyst at CAPA, a Sydney-based airlines think tank.

"Airlines cannot operate by themselves any more and need to build deeper partnerships through bilateral agreements."
Clark said the proposed tie-up with Emirates would see Qantas reconsidering its Oneworld alliance, to which Cathay also belongs.

"The world of alliance is changing. We will see major realignments in the next three to five years since they are not delivering the value that certain carriers thought they were going to get," Clark said.

Bilateral agreements between airlines had been in place for a long time and Cathay had been involved in a code-sharing agreement with American Airlines for several years, Hogg said.

The Qantas-Emirates tie-up would pose a competitive threat for Cathay, he added, but neither partners were "based in our backyard and sitting on all of our major traffic flows". Aside from the kangaroo market, there was strong and reciprocated demand for flights from Hong Kong and mainland China to Europe and Australia.

Transiting passengers contributed half of the passenger volume to Cathay, Hogg said.

"We are fortunate to have a strong and dynamic underlying market, where half of the world's population is within a five-hour flight from Hong Kong, while [mainland] China is the next big destination with huge traffic."

Although Cathay is well-located on the doorstep of mainland China, a neighbouring "crouching tiger" - Guangzhou-based China Southern Airlines - is gearing up its international services. Last year, it introduced a service to Australia, using Guangzhou as a transiting hub for European destinations.

Using Airbus 380 and other widebodied aircraft, China Southern has opened six destinations in Australia. Although it is still dwarfed by Cathay's 78 weekly services to Australia, the mainland carrier is mulling increasing the frequency of flights significantly.

In terms of product, Cathay is the only operator offering premium economy class to Australia. There are nine seats per row in the economy class in the Boeing 777-300ER aircraft operated by Cathay, versus 10 in the Emirates planes.

But in terms of networking, Gulf carriers enjoyed a comparative advantage and Hogg said Cathay would need to partner with a Middle East carrier in the long run.

South China Morning Post: Qantas-Emirates link forces Cathay Pacific to rethink network strategy (http://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/1127451/qantas-emirates-link-forces-cathay-pacific-rethink-network)

Its almost as if Tim Clark is now Qantas CEO... Non-equity takeover complete. Alan Joyce looks like he is now the district level administrative unit functionary for Emirates.

Thanks to the individual who PM'ed me with this insight.

neville_nobody

14th Jan 2013, 22:30

Cathay should market their flights now as the 'Fastest way to Europe' since it will be much quicker than going via DXB and the subsequent time wasting at the airport.

Emirates won't re painting anything that's for sure. Emirates is about Arab pride and providing employment for their local economy.

Mstr Caution

15th Jan 2013, 04:56

Aircraft will be painted if they can make money, service destinations where EK capacity may be constrained & as an added bonus also allow them to code share on the service.

Recall Virgins A330-200 are leased from EK.

donpizmeov

15th Jan 2013, 05:43

Two are ex EK, not leased from EK.

The Don

Shark Patrol

15th Jan 2013, 05:48

Alan Joyce looks like he is now the district level administrative unit functionary for Emirates.

I'd rather see him scrubbing urinals in Dubai Airport, but I think he's under-qualified!

Mstr Caution

15th Jan 2013, 06:14

I stand corrected if the circumstances did change.

However media reports were advising at the time EK were leasing the earlier A330 to VB as per the below article.

Virgin Blue Evaluating Additional Widebody Options - Wings Down Under (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/wings-down-under/2010/07/virgin-blue-evaluating-additional-widebody-options.html)

Stalins ugly Brother

15th Jan 2013, 09:29

The 777 s will be in QF colors with Emirates crew operating to save on wages and training costs.

Not sure about all this stuff of 777s in Qantas colours flying out of dubai, or anywhere else for that matter period, but did here a rumour that we could be taking a few of their retiring A330s for our Domestic.

I think we can forget about our international careers, the future is SYD-MEL-SYD-MEL-PER etc etc. Emirates are now officially our international arm (or we are their domestic arm more to the point! :ugh:).

Visual Procedures

15th Jan 2013, 14:51

Chuboy:

So Qantas colours with A6 or VH rego?

What does it matter? AIPA are happy to allow VH rego'd QANTAS coloured planes to be flown by contract pilots. (AO). AIPA also happy for foreign rego'd (ZK) QANTAS coloured planes to be flown by contract pilots. Both also had the pilots in full QANTAS uniforms as well..

Which ever suits the little leprechaun on the day is what will happen. AIPA has allowed so many precedents that it doesn't matter what he decides to do. :sad:

Keg

15th Jan 2013, 19:33

AIPA are happy to allow VH rego'd QANTAS coloured planes to be flown by contract pilots. (AO).

When they changed back to QF aircraft I thought they changed back to Qantas award?!?! That's the way I remember it anyway. I'm sure I had a mate in Cairns who was thrilled to be 'back in the fold'.

AIPA also happy for foreign rego'd (ZK) QANTAS coloured planes to be flown by contract pilots.

Happy? No. Definitely not.

AIPA has allowed so many precedents that it doesn't matter what he decides to do.

Allowed? What legal actions were available to prevent any of these things? When possible AIPA went to court over the issues.

:ugh: :rolleyes:

Sunfish

15th Jan 2013, 20:15

WIthin Two years Qantas will be run from Dubai.

Right now, Qantas is in a state where any strategic decision will require consideration of its effect on the Emirates tie up. The first Qantas staff will know about it is when they question a seemingly sub optimal change of procedures only to be told "thats because Emirates wants it that way/does it that way/makes it easier for Emirates" (insert reason of choice).

I would expect that chunks of Qantas planning and any other infrastructure that doesn't require to be in Australia for operational reasons will move offshore shortly.

In Two years the Government will be presented with a Fait Accompli. All core Qantas competencies are outsourced or based overseas - Engineering has already vanished. I don't know which area will follow, but they will. Emirates will move one of its activities here - (perhaps training?), this will be accompanied by a huge Qantas PR fanfare about how the relationship is a Two way thing, and Australia gains jobs that offset any Qantas job losses - except that it won't.

So by then Qantas is a virtual airline. Everything is contracted out. There is no longer any "Schwerpunkt" - military point of concentration or centre of gravity. Staff get their schedules and rosters from the internet. There is a training school somewhere which staff attend from time to time. There are hangars where contractors perform daily maintenance. There is a PR office in Canberra, a sales office in Sydney, and that is all. The decisions are made in Dubai and transmitted to offices in Australia for execution.

There is no head office any more except a Boardroom and entertainment facility somewhere, maybe located at the sales office.

At that point Emirates approaches the Government about the removal of the Qantas Sale Act since there is nothing left to protect. A "friendly" on market takeover follows.

Visual Procedures

16th Jan 2013, 01:07

When they changed back to QF aircraft I thought they changed back to Qantas award?!?!

After some time yes.. but not immediately..

Allowed?

Yes allowed. By not fighting hard enough to secure the jobs for mainline pilots, at whatever rate was necessary. There were/are plenty of young guys who would have taken opportunities if they were presented.

What legal actions were available to prevent any of these things? When possible AIPA went to court over the issues.

Now? None. And going to court doesn't seem to be helping.. What a sticky pickle.. :{

neville_nobody

16th Jan 2013, 01:54

Would interested to know what Emirates outsources. Could be a case of all these airline functions are move to Dubai but reality they're move to a third world dictatorship somewhere.

From Emirates themselves:

In the course of undertaking the activities specified in this privacy statement, we may need to transfer personal information to countries which do not have data protection laws or to countries where your privacy and other fundamental rights will not be protected as extensively

Gotta love outsourcing:ugh:

Yes allowed. By not fighting hard enough to secure the jobs for mainline pilots, at whatever rate was necessary.

Other than breaking the law or going broke in court what did you have in mind exactly?

Ramboflyer 1

16th Jan 2013, 10:57

As the QF/EK 777s will never set foot in Australia ie they will be for EMIRATES EXPANSION they will no doubt be A 6 registered. They will require crews based in Dubai only. Funnily enough there is probably enough crew ex Qantas already working for EK to show the union the numbers are covered.
It's all good news ,the flying was never available to QF, now it is and it will guarantee a good future for QF group. Still no growth , but there never was any .

Capt Kremin

16th Jan 2013, 11:02

Jetconnect is allowed by the single aviation market that exists between OZ and NZ. No such device exists for Oz and Dubai.

TIMA9X

16th Jan 2013, 23:13

The competition regulator will allow Qantas and Emirates to start working together on their alliance because of what it describes as the ‘‘long lead time’’ needed to market and sell tickets.
In a decision released this morning, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission’s chairman, Rod Sims, said he would grant ‘‘interim authorisation’’ for the airlines’ tie-up.
But the regulator has not allowed Qantas and Emirates to begin early preparations on the trans-Tasman route, after it raised concerns last month about the impact on flights between Australia and New Zealand.

Read more: Qantas gets green light for alliance ground-work (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-gets-green-light-for-alliance-groundwork-20130117-2cumf.html#ixzz2IBeS4WnQ)

full steam ahead..... step by step... as if Sims is working for them... every day another positive

TIMA9X

17th Jan 2013, 02:05

kFsbV7O611I

When I think about it, the pilots got it right way back with the PA's and they didn't disrupt one flight with industrial action making their point, .... Just who is our national carrier these days......? :( Good question ahhh Mr Sims...? In my view, another one heading a government commission that simply doesn't get it....

markis10

17th Jan 2013, 09:31

XFA and XFB are ex EK but were leased by them:

VH-XFA Airbus A330 (http://www.aussieairliners.org/a330/vh-xfa/vhxfa.html)

Sunfish

17th Jan 2013, 18:06

Neville N:

Re Emirates:

In the course of undertaking the activities specified in this privacy statement, we may need to transfer personal information to countries which do not have data protection laws or to countries where your privacy and other fundamental rights will not be protected as extensively

Just so you know, all the privacy law in Astralia is easily circumvented,

For example, a Dow Jones report on an Australian will show very little if ordered from Dow Jones Australia.

..Order the same report from Dow Jones via America and it will everything right down to condom size.

slamer.

17th Jan 2013, 23:34

Qantas barred from Emirates Tasman deal

11:50 AM Friday Jan 18, 2013

http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/20133/SCCZEN_A_021012NZHDPEMIRATES14_460x231.jpg

Emirates and Qantas have been allowed by Australian competitor regulators to start preparing for an alliance - but not on the Tasman.

Qantas has been barred from preparing for a transtasman alliance with Emirates due to concerns the deal would lead to inflated airfares between Australia and New Zealand.
The Australian competition regulator yesterday granted interim approval (http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1098063/fromItemId/142) for Qantas and Emirates to begin preparing for an alliance which would see the airlines cooperate on long-haul passenger and freight operations across their networks.
The interim decision allows for preparatory work only, with the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) expected to make a final decision on an alliance in March.
In a statement, the ACCC said the public benefits of the alliance, due to start in April if approved, were likely to outweigh concerns with the impact on competition.
But the regulator also blocked the airlines from preparing for a partnership on flights between Australia and New Zealand.
"The ACCC is concerned that the alliance may have an increased ability and incentive to reduce or limit growth in its capacity in order to raise airfares.

"Therefore, the ACCC is granting interim authorisation on the condition that the applicants do not engage in the conduct for which authorisation is sought in relation to services between Australia and New Zealand."
Qantas said the decision reflected the fact that New Zealand law did not provide for interim authorisation.
Chief executive Alan Joyce said the alliance would enable the two airlines to coordinate more closely and allow customers to book travel on most parts of the combined Qantas and Emirates network.
"This decision means we can determine pricing, capacity and scheduling with Emirates, in addition to the more logistical aspects of the partnership that we have been working through already," he said.
"For consumers, interim authorisation means we can provide details on fares and allow people to book one-stop destinations on most parts of the combined Emirates and Qantas network."
Fares on the combined network were expected to be announced in coming weeks once pricing discussions had taken place.
The services would remain subject to regulatory approval.
-

TIMA9X

23rd Jan 2013, 06:41

In a statement, the ACCC said the public benefits of the alliance, due to start in April if approved, were likely to outweigh concerns with the impact on competition.
But the regulator also blocked the airlines from preparing for a partnership on flights between Australia and New Zealand.then this,

Qantas to cut jobs after contract loss

Qantas has called for voluntary redundancies among check-in and other ground staff at Sydney Airport’s international terminal following the loss of a multi-million-dollar contract with Air New Zealand.
Read more: Qantas to cut jobs after contract loss (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-to-cut-jobs-after-contract-loss-20130123-2d768.html#ixzz2ImQ102gy)

I suppose Mr Sims can now breath a little easier about the proposed QF EK deal across the Tasman.... I am now concerned about all current QF pilots jobs if Sims approves the EK QF NZ part of proposal, which is already dominated by EK from an international LH route perspective..... in case you missed it, I previously posted.. the pilots got it right back then....

Who's Australia's National Airline? Support Australian Pilots Jobs - YouTube (http://youtu.be/kFsbV7O611I)

.

Stalins ugly Brother

23rd Jan 2013, 06:50

TIMA9X

23rd Jan 2013, 15:28

What makes this loss of contract interesting is that the contract was lost to Dnata, who are owned by or are part of the Emirates group.

My bet is after the ek/qf deal is finalised, all Qantas contracts for ground handling will be put up for tender australia wide and dnata will win most or all of the contracts.

Standby for a lot more job losses, certainly on the ground. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif Well said, and a good point SUB, a bit scary for all concerned with Australian aviation....:eek:

History

Dnata was established in 1959 in Dubai, UAE, with just five employees. The name originates as an acronym for ‘Dubai National Air Travel Agency’. It has grown significantly[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnata#cite_note-2) with the first international expansion seen in 1993 through a joint venture with Gerry’s International in Pakistan. Global expansion was also witnessed in 2008 through the acquisition of a 23% share in worldwide corporate travel company, Hogg Robinson Group (HRG) and 49% acquisition of the global outsource provider, Mind Pearl. In December, 2010, Dnata acquired Alpha Flight Limited, expanding the company even further to cover 62 airports in 12 countries. Today, Dnata has 20,000 employees with a worldwide network across five continents.
In August, 2010, Dnata appointed UAE based brand consultancy, Brash Brands, to review the Dnata brand as part of a health check exercise commissioned by CEO, Gary Chapman.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnata#cite_note-3) On 28 May 2011, Dnata launched its new brand strategy and identity created in partnership with Brash Brands [4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnata#cite_note-4)
Ground Handling

Dnata employs over 6,500 people who handle passenger, cargo, ramp and technical services for airlines at Dubai International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_International_Airport). Globally, Dnata also provides airport services to 19 airports: Dnata - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnata)

roger_ramjet

23rd Jan 2013, 22:27

You're probably right about Dnata growing and taking more check-in contracts but why does it mean job losses? The work still needs to be done by someone. I can understand people may be concerned leaving Qantas for a contractor but the net job loss in that sector of the industry would be minimal surely?

lc_461

23rd Jan 2013, 23:06

I think you'll find QF has 'given away' most of their customer contracts as they have come up for renewal over the past 2 years after AJ said he didn't want them anyway...

Going Boeing

23rd Jan 2013, 23:58

I think you'll find QF has 'given away' most of their customer contracts as they have come up for renewal over the past 2 years after AJ said he didn't want them anyway...

The evidence seems to confirm that - not only for check-in staff but ramp and engineering as well. Every time a contract comes up for renewal, the Qantas "tender" is always so high that it drives previously loyal customer airlines to seek lower price contractors. I don't understand why the institutional investors don't investigate the actions of QF instead of accepting ongoing loss of revenue.

hotnhigh

24th Jan 2013, 02:00

Interesting choice of words from Lesley Grant in her letter to frequent flyers.
Over the coming weeks we look forward to telling you more about benefits for Qantas Frequent Flyers from this partnership, including lounge access, the world's largest shared fleet of Airbus A380s
My bold.
Sharing.....
Sharing disjoints the connection between usage and ownership of a product. Products are often sold because a buyer intends to use the product or the buyer intends to sell it to someone who will use it, thus sharing a product may reduce the product's demand by reducing the number of people who intend to acquire it to use it. Though sharing is touted as an economical and environmental aid to the public (carpooling, shared apartments, etc.), some businesses perceive it as a threat because of its assumed effect on their profitability. This has resulted in protection laws (such as copyright provisions denying owners the right to perform or display the work publicly) to curb sharing. The effect on profitability is difficult if not impossible to assess because it relies on making sweeping assumptions about public behavior including individual decision making differences, buyers only convinced to buy after using a friend's product, and the effect on the sales of products given away.

Stalins ugly Brother

24th Jan 2013, 20:12

So Joyce got the tie up and his supposed saviour in Emirates he wanted. So, all things being equal, when is he going to start promoting Qantas????

We,as employees do it every day without management support, so when is the next campaign of "I still call Australia home" going to start?????
Singo knows it gets everyone in!!!
Actually, there isn't an aussie around the world that can't relate to it. So, with his (Joyces) big turn around maybe he should start pulling out the big guns that even over a few decades has still continued to touch the hearts and strings of many aussies travelling or living overseas and get people, especially Australians, back in touch with Qantas!

Oh, thats right, Alan's not Australian, it's not Jetstar and he will never understand. :ugh::ugh:

TIMA9X

24th Jan 2013, 22:43

Oh, thats right, Alan's not Australian,Yep, neither was Sol Trujillo Telstra, or Rio Tinto CEO Tom Albanese

If I was Walsh, the first thing I would do is shut down Rio’s ivory tower in London and move it to Perth.
Read more: Time to bring Rio Tinto home (http://www.smh.com.au/business/mining-and-resources/time-to-bring-rio-tinto-home-20130118-2cxf2.html#ixzz2IwEcYzlm)

Singo address's the issue here... probably more spot on now than ever before, worth a re-watch .... where he singles out the Q CEO.

daMY-Pb99Mo

I fear with the EK/QF tie up the QF "ivory tower" may move off-shore for operational staff recruiting purposes..... I suppose it avoids the Qantas sales act. :rolleyes:

Oh yeah, and there is a connection with the current Q chairman...

hotnhigh

25th Jan 2013, 02:11

Interesting manoeuvre....
Qantas takes code off Jetstar routes | Travel Weekly (http://www.travelweekly.com.au/travel-today/news/qantas-takes-code-off-jetstar-routes)

Mstr Caution

25th Jan 2013, 02:13

Qantas takes code off Jetstar routes | Travel Weekly (http://www.travelweekly.com.au/travel-today/news/qantas-takes-code-off-jetstar-routes)

I would guess the "transparency" required when booking travel is to unwind the deceit of "you thought you booked a Qantas flight & you end up with Jetstar"

I'd go further to say its probably coming at the direction of Emirates. Since when has Qantas management really listened to its passengers.

Shark Patrol

25th Jan 2013, 04:50

... or cared about 'transparency'!

V-Jet

27th Jan 2013, 23:22

... or cared about 'anything'!

(other than their own pockets).

TIMA9X

28th Jan 2013, 00:51

cared about 'transparency'!
and
... or cared about 'anything'!

(other than their own pockets). :D

ul0dgCQzaJ8 :)

73to91

1st Feb 2013, 03:11

Unions are making a last-ditch plea to the consumer watchdog against a partnership between Qantas and Emirates airlines.

Tony Sheldon, national secretary of the Transport Workers' Union (TWU), along with other union representatives will front an Australian Consumer and Competition Commission (ACCC) conference on Friday.

Mr Sheldon says he will reiterate that the partnership is a bad deal on many fronts.

"It's bad for consumers, it's bad for the travelling public, it's bad for the economy and it's bad for the Australian workforce," he told reporters outside the conference in Sydney.

"Shrinking Qantas and handing over our national routes is putting our economic future into the hands of a Middle East carrier in a volatile part of the world."

Independent senator Nick Xenophon, who is also giving evidence, said the deal would mean further job losses.

"We will see a shrinking of the flying kangaroo and further job losses."

Earlier this month the ACCC gave Qantas and Emirates the green light to prepare joint strategies for sales, marketing and pricing.

But the ACCC has said its interim authorisation of the partnership may be reviewed at any time and should not be seen as an indication of whether final approval will be given or not.
Read more: 'Ditch Qantas-Emirates deal' say Xenophon, unions (http://www.smh.com.au/business/ditch-qantasemirates-deal-say-xenophon-unions-20130201-2dovb.html#ixzz2JcK7Rovl)

Plus, any Arabic speaking people want a job?
SEEK - Flight Attendant Job in Sydney (http://www.seek.com.au/Job/qf-cabin-crew-australia-flight-attendant-arabic-speakers/in/sydney-sydney/23921416)

Taildragger67

1st Feb 2013, 03:29

Who wrote that ad?!

Our People have:...

... The flexibility to work any shift in our operation, including Christmas and New Year's Eve

I'm not sure that a willingness to work on Christmas Day would be an issue for most Arabic speakers.

Eid al-Fitr, on the other hand... :hmm:

indamiddle

2nd Feb 2013, 02:06

just christmas and new year?
what about mardi gras and NRL and AFL grand finals?
there is also the issue with people looking arabic and having muslim names. they won't just be flying to dubai, as many flights on 380 also go to the states. some crew including pilots have a regular 2 hour questioning period on arrival to USA. don't expect crew bus to be still waiting outside. 380 f/a crew can't bid for rosters

TIMA9X

2nd Feb 2013, 03:26

SENATOR Nick Xenophon has slammed the consumer watchdog for admitting that it had not properly tested Qantas' claims that its international operations would face "terminal decline" if its proposed alliance with Emirates could not go ahead.

The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission granted interim authorisation in January for an alliance between Qantas and Emirates that will see the airlines share joint marketing, pricing and co-ordination on some routes, as well as reciprocal frequent-flyer benefits and an extensive codesharing arrangement.

The controversial decision came after Qantas warned in September that its international operations were in serious trouble and that its proposed 10-year partnership with Emirates was an ''urgent strategic imperative''.
But in a stakeholders' meeting on Friday, the ACCC admitted it had not asked a forensic accountant to go over Qantas' books to test its claim before allowing the alliance to go ahead. Instead, it said it had relied on its own investigation and on Qantas' submission to the watchdog.

Senator Xenophon said he was was concerned about the admission.
''It is absolutely extraordinary … that there has been no forensic analysis [of Qantas' financial accounts]. That's one admission we got out of the ACCC,'' he said.
''Qantas' hundreds of companies, hundreds of subsidiaries, and literally the ACCC has not even assessed that, has not forensically looked at these claims of terminal decline.

''Let's put this in context, back in February 2011, Alan Joyce said that Qantas Group was ticking along nicely, the international division was making really good solid profits, yet less than four months later it was seen to be a complete turnaround. What happened?''

The commission said on Friday that its decision to allow the deal to go through had not been based on Qantas' claim that its business would be in terminal decline if it did not go through.

It also said its decision was not swayed by a consideration of job losses at Qantas, only for the effect on the Australian economy as a whole.

Tony Sheldon, national secretary of the Transport Workers Union, said he was concerned the ACCC had not considered the impact the alliance would have on jobs. my bold

Read more: Xenophon attacks ACCC over Qantas (http://www.smh.com.au/business/xenophon-attacks-accc-over-qantas-20130201-2dq31.html#ixzz2JiBrM2eA)

I think Sims will be under huge pressure, he kicked an own goal by being to quick off the mark just prior to Christmas, sending positive messages about his intentions to allow interim approval without considering all the facts.:ouch:

haughtney1

2nd Feb 2013, 05:39

there is also the issue with people looking arabic and having muslim names. they won't just be flying to dubai, as many flights on 380 also go to the states. some crew including pilots have a regular 2 hour questioning period on arrival to USA. don't expect crew bus to be still waiting outside. 380 f/a crew can't bid for rosters

Hmmmm just like MEL and SYD then....

There are also plenty of us anglo-saxon folk who don't look Arabic (why didn't you just say potential terrorist) who get the 3rd degree when we enter or leave the good ol'e US as crew.

Mstr Caution

3rd Feb 2013, 22:45

World News Australia | SBS (http://m.sbs.com.au/news/#article1733383_Qantas-outlines-new-Asian-strategy)

MC

crosscutter

3rd Feb 2013, 23:30

Having reached the stage of acceptance, the final stage of grief, I think perhaps there might be another stage....laughter. Surely that's all you can do when there is yet more culling but the focus of the press release and subsequent news articles is the possible expansion in 2016. BAhahahah

Comoman

3rd Feb 2013, 23:53

http://www.asx.com.au/asx/statistics/displayAnnouncement.do?display=pdf&idsId=01379347

Not good for ex-PER and ADL :mad:

600ft-lb

4th Feb 2013, 00:36

I love their spin on words. No there hasn't been a cut back in capacity to Singapore, it's actually a 40% increase *in dedicated capacity*. These guys will make excellent politicians after they drive Qantas into the dirt. Their futures are secure at least.

standard unit

4th Feb 2013, 00:45

Qantas has been flying to Frankfurt for 60 years. :mad:

600ft-lb

4th Feb 2013, 00:48

90%+ load factors and can't make money, remember that...

Jetstar 70% load factors to Japan and heavily discounted fares almost all the time and it makes heaps, remember that...

73to91

4th Feb 2013, 02:18

A DECISION by Qantas to end its international flights out of Adelaide is a "sick joke" on South Australians, independent Senator Nick Xenophon says.

Senator Xenophon says the decision would force those people travelling on Qantas international flights to travel first to another state.

"Qantas's senior management assured me in September last year that the Adelaide-Singapore service was safe - that assurance has been broken," he said.

"Why is it that other countries' airlines fly in and out of Adelaide over 80 times a week - yet our national carrier is now abandoning South Australia on international routes?"

Qantas currently operates Adelaide to Singapore services three times a week but announced on Monday that they would stop at the end of March.

Read more: Senator critical of Qantas changes | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/national/senator-critical-of-qantas-changes/story-e6frfku9-1226570017374#ixzz2JteFXWzU)

Senior management assured me :rolleyes: Now the good senator knows how the QANTAS staff feel.

The The

4th Feb 2013, 02:18

Summary:

SYD-HKG - reduction of 4 services per week to 7.
SYD-SIN - reduction of 3 services to eventually 14 (11 initially)
BNE-HKG - increase of 3 services per week to 7
PER-SIN - reduction of 7 services per week to 7
PER-HKG - reduction of 3 services per week to 0
ADL-SIN - reduction of 3 services per week to 0

Yep, look like a real improvement to the international network?

DrPepz

4th Feb 2013, 03:10

SIN-SYD will operate 4 weekly from Apr to Jun before going daily, as SQ operates the route 4 daily.

QF's SINPER leaves at 1725, which means the famed business traffic would need to leave the city at 3pm (okay, 3.45pm if you push it since SIN has wonderful road infrastructure) to catch that flight. With SQ offering 4 flights a day SINPER, QF will catch the low yielding holiday traffic for June and December, god knows how they'll fill the plane the other 10 months of the year.

SQ's SINADL year round 12 weekly service probably killed QF's 3 weekly SINADL. And with SINMEL at a single daily compared to SQ's soon to be 4 daily, one wonders why QF even tries to compete.

h.o.t.a.s.

4th Feb 2013, 04:37

How long until Jetstar announces its Singapore based A330 operation will be flying a daily Singapore - Perth and Singapore - Adelaide service due to heavy demand on the routes?:hmm:

topend3

4th Feb 2013, 04:50

Meanwhile SQ have 4 x services a day PER-SIN, with 2 afternoon services that leave within an hour and a half of each other...

Mrs Mangels

4th Feb 2013, 05:43

Qantas currently operates Adelaide to Singapore services three times a week but announced on Monday that they would stop at the end of March.

Not surprising, considering what happens on April 1.

Expect EK via BKK/ KUL/ SIN or somewhere up there into ADL and the rest of Oz. EK still have 4 daily slots to use in either BNE/SYD/MEL and they can go unlimited elsewhere in the country.
I have absolutely no idea if this is true, just thinking out aloud, but this latest announcement is hardly more that a coincidence. :confused:

DJ737

4th Feb 2013, 06:01

In what may just be co-incidence Jetstar Asia has just announced SIN-PER-SIN increases from 7 to 12 weekly :hmm:

ohallen

4th Feb 2013, 06:48

Meanwhile Etihad also produce profit growth, passenger growth and positive stuff. When are the QF shareholders going to wake up to the fact that they need a board/management team who will manage the damn airline not sell or give away the family heirlooms.

qantel

4th Feb 2013, 08:26

Jetstar Asia given profitable routes to make its dreadful bottom line look better.
Not surprising really...
Joyce p*ss off!

moa999

4th Feb 2013, 09:44

Etihad made $42m on $4.8bn revenue -- that is 0.88% margin -- not exactly strong.

Throw higher tax rates, higher commercial borrowing rates, lower depreciation rates on aircraft, higher airport charges in home hub, and I suspect Etihad is loss making, even ignoring any labour differences.

Warragul

8th Feb 2013, 07:34

In todays Travel Daily -

"QF mull London reduction

QANTAS has told regulators in NZ it is considering dropping one of its double daily services to London should it be unable to gain approval to form a joint venture with a “mid-point carrier”.

What’s more, the Australian flag carrier suggests shelving all flights to Europe in the long-term. In a joint 116-page application to the New Zealand Ministry of

Transport, Qantas and Emirates said their proposed conduct “is a measured and balanced response to the economic realities of the highly dynamic and competitive international aviation industry.”

QF reiterated that “mid-point carriers” - those with hubs in Singapore, Hong Kong, Middle

East or locations in China - “have an immediate and significant geographic advantage over endof-line carriers like Qantas International” because they have access to hundreds of millions of consumers in a nearby proximity.

The lengthy document, submitted in Sep last year, outlines the range of public benefits to be derived through the alliance, including increased tourism, enhanced customer experiences & products and Qantas fare reductions.

QF said “numerous reasons” had previously prevented pacts with other mid-point carriers, such as Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Malaysia Airlines, which has resulted in QF Int’l “continuing to lose money and contract.”

Qantas has already confirmed it will cease services on the “loss - making” Frankfurt route, one of its three daily European options.

However, the application to the NZ MOT goes further, saying, “absent the ability to coordinate with one of the mid-point carriers [namely EK], Qantas International’s current European network will contract further, with the possible withdrawal of one of the daily London services in the short term.

“In the long-term, Qantas Int’l will only invest in new aircraft & operate to those ports where it can make an appropriate return on capital - this will not include Europe,” the document states.

Since the application was filed, QF/EK won a Draft Determination from the ACCC in favour of the pact, excluding trans-Tasman ops."

Stalins ugly Brother

8th Feb 2013, 07:56

This article is nothing new. Alan Joyce has always carried on about cancelling european services or any other service if he doesn't get his own way. Tantrum here, tantrum there, have bit of a dummy spit, thats his thing.

He behaves like a spoilt little child. :ugh:

DJ737

9th Feb 2013, 07:42

Hi there

Did a search on qantas.co.uk for flight from Dubai to Heathrow on 04 Apr 13, eventually worked out how to do it as the website does not list Dubai as a valid origin or destination.

The fare was £166 (A$254) including taxes and fuel fines etc.

According to QF, PAX ex AUS (ie SYD & MEL) will transfer to EK Euro flights in DXB, so the seats vacated by these PAX are being given away at rock bottom prices on the DXB-LHR sector.

Can't see QF serving LHR in the long term, QF flights ex MEL & SYD will end up as DXB terminators.

Think i'll just stick to Emirates or Etihad

Cheers
DJ737

hotnhigh

11th Feb 2013, 01:26

Bob's word....
Katter pushes laws to keep Qantas in Australia (http://www.afr.com/p/national/katter_pushes_laws_to_keep_qantas_KphRbSAk9dAEp4CUO6uQGJ)

fishers.ghost

15th Feb 2013, 03:30

A few years ago when Old Scrotum Face was still running the show QF employees began the FOG campaign.As we all know he did.
The new Campaign has the acronym of GROW...Get Rid Of Wally

Shark Patrol

15th Feb 2013, 05:52

I like the idea of FROLIC better.

Livs Hairdresser

15th Feb 2013, 06:04

LOL SP

That is all

Hobo

15th Feb 2013, 18:46

Once they start talking about 'offerings' (http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20130204/pdf/42ctm8nyxl52zm.pdf), doom lies just round the corner. I'm amazed 'vision', 'sustainability' and 'legacy' aren't mentioned.

Mstr Caution

18th Feb 2013, 09:52

Qantas has been flying to Frankfurt for 60 years

90%+ load factors and can't make money, remember that...

Rumour has it QF has been getting smashed by LH.

QF only have two entry points to Europe being LHR & FRA.

Qantas flies into FRA & Star Alliances LH picks up the next sector out of FRA.

Rumour has it LH are demanding a disproportionate amount of the total ticket price to uplift the pax out of FRA.

Hence the QF premium price & high load factors & a loss making route.

AJ's response being we'll take our business via elsewhere.

MC.

73to91

18th Feb 2013, 11:02

AJ's response being we'll take our business via elsewhere
Out of Germany all together, his team wouldn't have the foresight to attempt to get rights/slots into Berlin :oh:

Qantas flies into FRA & Star Alliances LH picks up the next sector out of
FRA

It could have been:
Qantas flies into Berlin & OneWorld (Air Berlin) picks up the next sector out of Berlin :ugh:

Can only assume the QF Board and AJ and his mates only want to fly P class on an A380, which equals LHR.

Mstr Caution

18th Feb 2013, 11:56

73to91

Im just relaying some detail as to how FRA was un profitable. All rumour of course.

I actually thought Berlin may have been on the cards when Joyce & Slossar (CX) were seen in Berlin about a year or two ago & I posted as such. I think at the time joyce was talking 787's & Slossar a350's.

But all went quiet on sending mainline 787's in a few years from now to Berlin after the Emirates deal was announced.

MC

moa999

20th Feb 2013, 00:19

But for QF to connect with the oneworld hubs, its all the wrong airport for business traffic.

In Germany, FRA is like Sydney - the business centre, BER/TXL is like Canberra
In SEAsia, flying to SIN is much better than KUL.

Shifting to the oneworld hubs would lose QF a lot of premium traffic.

ohallen

20th Feb 2013, 07:19

Yes, but that is where they are taking this company.

Strange how an education or privileged position in life justifies $40 specials against a premium fare with service.

Ultergra

26th Feb 2013, 06:26

Interesting:

http://mobile.news.com.au/travel/news/british-airways-joins-forces-with-cathay-pacific/story-e6frfq80-1226586198548

BRITISH Airways is hitting back at Qantas after Australia's national airline ditched it for Emirates, signing a deal with Cathay Pacific to fly travellers between Australia and London via Hong Kong.

The UK carrier will begin a new partnership with the Asian airline on March 31 - the same day Qantas is due to begin its arrangement with Middle Eastern carrier Emirates.

donpizmeov

26th Feb 2013, 10:50

I see EK are doing their bit to help with this code share as they are upgrading to two A380s and one 777 per day into SYD instead of two 777 and one A380 starting 01Jun. This should help all those QF pax that don't want to go to LHR. Would you then call them EK pax?

The Don

falconeasydriver

26th Feb 2013, 13:27

Explains Don why the 777f is going daily to SYD, sometimes with a stop in MEL as well.
No seven step toilet process in sight:}

donpizmeov

26th Feb 2013, 14:25

Ah falcon, I think its that 777 thing that is payload restricted old fella. But mate they make good freighters! :ok:

The Don

TIMA9X

26th Feb 2013, 18:23

Late on Tuesday, Sunland said it understood the Dubai government allegations in the bribery case included that about $7 million went to a bank account linked to Mr Joyce and about $7 million went to a company linked to another Australian, Angus Reed.
Mr Reed's firm, Prudentia, had claimed development rights over the plot of land, which the Dubai prosecutors say it never had.
Mr Joyce and Mr Reed attended Geelong Grammar. Prince Charles spent two terms at the school in 1966.

For a second there...., I thought,... (out loud). What's this? ...https://a.gfx.ms/Emoji_1F624.png" he what? "

and then I read the story...

Read more: Qantas denies it blocked help for duo held in Dubai (http://www.smh.com.au/national/qantas-denies-it-blocked-help-for-duo-held-in-dubai-20130226-2f42f.html#ixzz2M1ybWArG)

You gotta say, namesake wise, the Irish bloke, can't win a trick... https://a.gfx.ms/Emoji_1F601.pnghttps://a.gfx.ms/Emoji_1F440.png https://a.gfx.ms/Emoji_1F632.png ,

I suspect there will be a few misquoted stories flying around some offices this morning., :confused: ;)

source Did you hear about...........
answer no no no, it's not him..... :ok:

.

Sunfish

27th Feb 2013, 19:12

Mods, move this if you like...

This is how to lie with a straight face. Qantas says it "might" share ground services with Emirates, but don't worry about that now.

As I have said before, Qantas will be all but an Emirates brand name in a few short years.

My bolding of the weasel words.

QANTAS has left the door open to broadening its alliance with Emirates to include ground handling and support services, but is willing to exclude them from the present deal to allay concerns from unions.

With just four weeks to go before the alliance is due to be launched, Qantas has sought to make clear that the focus of the alliance is on flying operations, and that the two airlines have not begun any talks or planning about operations such as ground handling, catering or aircraft engineering.

''There are no current plans for co-ordination [of non-flying operations] in Australia at this time,'' it said in a submission to the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission.

However, Qantas noted that the two airlines' flying operations might jointly look to buy services from other companies that offer ground handling, engineering and catering operations.

Read more: Qantas alliance may expand to support services (http://www.theage.com.au/business/qantas-alliance-may-expand-to-support-services-20130227-2f68a.html#ixzz2M8FQGzuH)

Qantas alliance may expand to support services (http://www.theage.com.au/business/qantas-alliance-may-expand-to-support-services-20130227-2f68a.html)

TheWholeEnchilada

27th Feb 2013, 19:42

"Competition is a sin"
--
John D Rockefeller

In practice "co-opt, control or eliminate".

The only thing that stands between the non-equity takeover of Qantas by Emirates is the ACCC.

obira

27th Feb 2013, 19:48

'There are no current plans.....' (my bold)

If there are no plans then why not just say 'there are no plans'?

Is it because there are, in fact, 'future plans' already?

Sunfish

27th Feb 2013, 19:54

Of course there are future plans:

Just keep working till we eliminate your position, there's a good chap.

In this type of restructure, no one is safe.

Conductor

27th Feb 2013, 21:21

The only thing that stands between the non-equity takeover of Qantas by Emirates is the ACCC.

....and that does not fill me with confidence.

ampclamp

27th Feb 2013, 22:03

"no plans" but we'll let you overpaid (unionised) engineers and ground staff know that you are never safe.

TheWholeEnchilada

27th Feb 2013, 22:09

Who is funding the Emirates expansion? Uncle Sam via the Import Export Bank of the United States. In effect, Emirates is the recipient of a bail-out via Boeing - Emirates is receiving United States vendor financing via guarentees from the US government to keep Boeing building aircraft & prevent job losses.

From the WSJ 2009

As Boeing Hits Turbulence, Uncle Sam Flies to Its Aid

By DANIEL MICHAELS (http://online.wsj.com/search/term.html?KEYWORDS=DANIEL+MICHAELS&bylinesearch=true)

December 10, 2009

Airlines are struggling amid the global recession. Boeing (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=ba) Co., BA +2.26% (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=BA?mod=inlineTicker) meanwhile, is churning out jetliners at its fastest clip in years.

Executives at the aerospace giant say their factories are so busy due in large part to one man: Bob Morin, a federal employee who stumps the globe to rally sales for America's biggest exporter. More than one in four airliners Boeing delivers this year will be funded thanks to Mr. Morin's efforts.

Mr. Morin is vice president of transportation at the U.S. Export-Import Bank, created in 1934 to help fight the Great Depression. The bank's long history and recent experience suggest how government programs thrown together to battle the current economic crisis may alter the fabric of commerce for years to come. Ex-Im Bank is developing new funding tools and signing deals at a dizzying pace to fulfill its mandate of supporting American employment.

Ex-Im is an unusual bank: It mainly provides U.S. Treasury guarantees to banks to make them comfortable lending to buyers of American exports. If the buyer defaults, Ex-Im repays the bank loan and then goes after the defaulter.

No company has deeper relations with Ex-Im Bank than Chicago-based Boeing. Without Ex-Im, aviation officials say, Boeing this year could have been forced to slash production, endangering hundreds of U.S. suppliers, thousands of skilled American jobs and billions of dollars in export contracts.

At the same time, the relationship may be warping a market that some say is oversupplied with planes. A major beneficiary of the program is the state-owned airline of Dubai, the Arabian city-state engulfed in a financial crunch after a long borrowing binge.

Some economists say that Ex-Im Bank channels financial resources to specific companies, such as Boeing, which means that money isn't being directed by the market. "All Ex-Im has been able to do is steer some money to Boeing and away from small exporters -- it's a zero-sum game," says Dan Griswold, director of the Center for Trade Policy at the libertarian Cato Institute in Washington.

Mr. Morin is Ex-Im Bank's rainmaker. His Boeing deals accounted for almost 40% of the bank's $21 billion in business last year. To help Boeing through the credit crunch, his team has spent the past year developing government-backed bonds that promise to raise billions.

To boosters, Ex-Im is a paradigm of efficient government help to industry. Ex-Im covers all its costs through fees charged to foreign borrowers and has handed billions of dollars to taxpayers. It has helped Boeing compete with rival Airbus, which was created in 1970 by European governments. Ex-Im works against economic cycles, expanding in tough times and receding when private lenders are flush.
"This is Ex-Im Bank's time to step up to bat," says Mr. Morin, a 52-year-old New Yorker.

"Of course it's government intervention, but it's government intervention that works extremely well," says Klaus Heinemann, chief executive of Dutch airplane lessor AerCap Holdings NV, which has used Ex-Im Bank and also financed Airbus orders using Ex-Im Bank's European counterparts.

To critics, Ex-Im shows how subsidy programs entrench themselves and distort markets. Executives at German carrier Deutsche Lufthansa (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=LHA.XE) AG LHA.XE +0.30% (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=LHA.XE?mod=inlineTicker) say export financing pumps more than 10% excess jetliner capacity into the market. Some aviation financiers say Ex-Im Bank's current efforts to maintain Boeing's production are simply pushing plane makers' and airlines' problems into the future. And some economists say Ex-Im's assumption of risk on sales of Boeing planes amounts to a subsidy for the aerospace giant.

"Boeing's been getting a sort of pre-emptive bailout for years, largely under the radar," says Donald Boudreaux, a professor of economics at George Mason University in Fairfax, Va. He notes that while Ex-Im doesn't draw money from the federal budget, U.S. taxpayers are ultimately liable for almost $70 billion in loans on its books.

Boeing officials reject the idea that the Ex-Im Bank's support constitutes a bailout or subsidies. Chairman and Chief Executive Jim McNerney says Ex-Im "is critical to this country's competitiveness right now," supports thousands of jobs and is "very important to the recovery." Since other countries support exports, he says, eliminating Ex-Im "would leave you very uncompetitive today."
Boeing's jetliner sales through September were $24.9 billion, up 5% on the year.

Ex-Im officials say the bank is more rigorous and demands more collateral than do other agencies that back loans with government guarantees -- particularly mortgage titans Fannie and Freddie, which nearly collapsed when the housing market crashed.

Mr. Morin says he's simply bridging a gap between demand for planes and paralyzed financial markets. The bank's volume of guarantees, loans and other commitments for jetliners has doubled since 2007. European export agencies are offering Airbus similar support.

http://sg.wsj.net/public/resources/images/P1-AS820B_EXIM_NS_20091208225444.gif

"Nothing would make us happier than if our level of business went down," says Mr. Morin. "It's just not healthy for so much of the financing to come from export-credit agencies."

Still, when credit markets froze last fall, Mr. Morin led the search for new funding. To push Ex-Im Bank into the global bond market, his eight-person team sweated over details ranging from debt-payment technicalities to whether offering documents could carry Ex-Im Bank's official seal. The project illustrates how the bank -- like much of the federal government -- is simultaneously spurring private business and expanding the state's role in the economy.

While industry has applauded the effort, some analysts say it has a downside: "Any time you find a new way to increase exposure, you increase the risk to taxpayers," says Marcus Peacock, director of Subsidyscope, a project of the Pew Charitable Trusts in Washington, D.C.
Britain created the world's first export-financing office in 1919. Ex-Im was the second. The agencies proved so successful that most countries started one. International trade rules now limit how aggressively export-credit agencies can support exports.
Today, Ex-Im Bank's blessing means that investors deem a loan to Ghana for buying rural electrification equipment to be almost as secure as U.S. Treasury bonds, generally considered the world's safest investment. Ex-Im says it carefully vets borrowers before backing them, and its default rate is less than 1.5% over its 76 years.

For its backstop, Ex-Im charges a borrower an up-front fee. The rate for jetliners is at least 4% of the value of the loan. The fees add up. Between 1992 and 2007, Ex-Im paid $5 billion more to the Treasury than it received.
"We don't cost the taxpayer anything," says Chairman Fred Hochberg.

That financial cushion prompted Congress in 2007 to make Ex-Im Bank a self-funding federal agency. In its fiscal year ended Sept. 30, Ex-Im Bank deposited $135 million in the public coffers.
While most exporters can use Ex-Im Bank, critics say it focuses excessively on corporate giants. Entrepreneurs are often unaware of Ex-Im Bank or daunted by exporting. Congress in 2006 required Ex-Im Bank to devote at least 20% of its funding to small businesses, and the Government Accountability Office has pressed it to work harder in the sector.

Mr. Morin faces an easier task finding deals because Boeing refers customers to him.
Before he joined Ex-Im Bank in 1998 as a lawyer, Mr. Morin was a senior associate at Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP, in New York, and had financed many more Airbus planes than Boeing deals. He promised his wife that the government job, and its accompanying pay cut, would only last two years, he recalls.
For much of the decade, low interest rates meant most airlines could easily borrow on their own. So Mr. Morin and his team hopped the globe, traveling in economy class, to meet carriers and introduce Ex-Im Bank.

European aviation financiers say Mr. Morin's support for Boeing pushed export-credit agencies in Britain, France and Germany to work more efficiently in backing Airbus.
"Ex-Im Bank is much more aggressive in the market in terms of selling its services," says Airbus Chief Operating Officer John Leahy, the company's top airplane salesman. "To a very large degree, it's Bob Morin and the team he built who put a commercial perspective on what otherwise would be a staid government agency."

That reputation was tested last fall when credit markets seized up. Suddenly, banks that had previously financed loans backed by Ex-Im guarantees at the lowest prevailing rates stopped lending or were tacking on several percentage points in interest.
Higher interest costs would burden borrowers, increasing the chance of default. That would endanger taxpayers' money, Mr. Morin worried. He started to seek alternatives to expensive bank funding.

Industry officials, meanwhile, warned of a $20 billion "funding gap." Boeing and Airbus, a unit of European Aeronautic Defense & Space (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=EAD.FR) Co., EAD.FR +6.53% (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=EAD.FR?mod=inlineTicker) faced the threat of building planes for customers that wanted them but couldn't get purchase financing.
Last fall, Walt Skowronski, president of Boeing's jetliner-finance arm, summoned investment bankers to his office. He says he wanted to bypass commercial lenders and go straight to investors such as pension managers and sovereign wealth funds.

Bankers at Goldman Sachs Group Inc. (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=GS) GS +2.47% (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=GS?mod=inlineTicker) -- who had just helped the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. issue bonds to bail out banks -- proposed issuing bonds backed by Ex-Im Bank, recalls Gregory Lee, a Goldman managing director.

Mr. Skowronski liked the idea but flagged some worries. Ex-Im had never guaranteed bonds, which are much more complex than bank loans.

On Feb. 20, with global financial markets seemingly in free fall, Goldman and Boeing officials flew to Ex-Im Bank's Washington headquarters to sell their plan. Mr. Morin told them any bond they devised would have to be identical to bonds that competing banks were racing to develop for Boeing and Ex-Im. He wanted investors to think of them all as a single class of assets, so they would trade easily.
"By keeping it simple, we were able to get to market quickly," Mr. Morin says.

These would be the first bonds backed by Ex-Im. The debt would be sold to investors who had never financed airplanes or even heard of Ex-Im Bank, so nobody knew what they would pay for the bonds. Success could open a vast new source of funding in the huge bond market, everyone involved believed. A slip-up could derail the whole effort to keep Boeing sales aloft.

The next question: What would be the test case? Boeing executives and the bankers wanted a plane buyer willing to take risks on the new investment vehicle, but one established enough to comfort Mr. Morin and potential investors. On March 7, Mr. Lee pitched the idea to officials from a large carrier due to take several Boeing planes -- Dubai's state-owned Emirates Airline (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=ea.yy) .

"We were a bit skeptical" about how much people would pay for the bonds, recalls Brian Jeffery, senior vice president of corporate treasury at Emirates. The approach was so new that Mr. Jeffery had to check with Mr. Morin that he had approved it.

Then, the Saturday before the bonds were to be sold, Mr. Lee, the banker, got an urgent call. Newly appointed Ex-Im managers were asking why Ex-Im's official seal should adorn offering documents for a private financing.

The bankers were startled. They jumped on the phone to explain that investors would question the government's commitment if its seal wasn't alongside Boeing's.

Ex-Im officials relented; the agency's seal appeared on the documents. "Those little things were huge," says Mr. Lee.
On Oct. 8, Emirates' 12-year issue raised $414 million for three Boeing 777s, at an interest rate significantly below what banks were charging.

Because of Ex-Im's guarantee, the bonds have been largely unaffected by the Dubai crisis, bankers say. Mr. Morin says he isn't worried about repayment because the deal and Emirates' business are fundamentally sound.

Two similar bond deals followed. The new source of money is pressing bankers to trim rates on loans, airplane financiers say.
The deal has forced Airbus and European export-credit agencies to react, says Gordon Welsh, head of Aviation Finance at Britain's Export Credits Guarantee Department. Seated next to Mr. Morin at an industry conference days after the Emirates' issue, Mr. Welsh said his agency is scrambling to replicate the new American model.
"We're following Bob," Mr. Welsh said.
As Boeing Hits Turbulence, Uncle Sam Flies to Its Aid (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126031187195082573.html)

73to91

27th Feb 2013, 22:24

There was an interesting role advertised last week at QANTAS - interesting in regards to this thread.

Title of Manager Continuous Improvement and Analysis
Qantas is widely regarded as a leading airline and one of the strongest brands in Australia. We have built a reputation for excellence in safety, operational reliability, engineering and maintenance, and customer service. Qantas proudly recognises the value and the dedication of our employees across the globe and is one of the largest employers in Australia.

Utilising your outstanding analytical and relationship management skills, your new position as Manager Continuous Improvement and Analysis will see you creating and driving Business Improvement using available tools and methodologies, whilst also carrying out independent monitoring of the Planning functions across Ground Operations, and benchmarking across the ports. Located within Ground Operations, this role will lead a team of analysts to identify, plan, implement and monitor initiatives aimed at reducing cost and improving efficiencies related to Airport operations.
You will be responsible for:

Design and management of plans, processes, procedures and practices related to Continuous Improvement initiatives above and below the wing
Leading the implementation of the Continuous Improvement strategy to enable Ground Operations to achieve its business objectives and deliver on operational plans
Managing a team of analysts to build and deliver improvement plans
Reviewing existing solutions including systems, resources, and recommending future improvements to optimise performance

Specification, design and implementation of planning models for benchmarking and analysis of Ground Operations Manpower requirements
Driving a change agenda across all business units and embed a culture of Continuous Improvement

so it might be a very easy job for the successful applicant,
a trip to Dubai and ask Emirates what they want and implement;)

ASY68

27th Feb 2013, 23:39

Heres a question, why would Emirates drop its own company in Aus?

hotnhigh

28th Feb 2013, 00:12

Driving a change agenda across all business units and embed a culture of Continuous Improvement

Isn't that qantas code for cull and kill?

Metro man

28th Feb 2013, 01:04

Remember Emirates started with a clean sheet of paper in 1985 without years of "government airline" baggage and union strangle hold forcing it to continue archaic working practices. They were given an initial $10 million and required to operate without government subsidies. They operate in a business friendly environment with a government which realises the importance of aviation and supports it's development. As a result they are profitable and expanding, obviously pursuing a long term strategy.

They don't carry over paid, underworked, bonus driven deadwood in management either.

Perhaps a look at how they do things at all levels could benefit QANTAS.:hmm:

Taildragger67

28th Feb 2013, 01:41

Re the Ex-Im Bank article, many countries have export credit agencies, not just the US. There is nothing new or underhanded in it.

Many Airbus aircraft have been financed with guarantees from

Euler Hermes (http://www.eulerhermes.com/Pages/default.aspx)

Coface (http://www.coface.com/CofacePortal/COM_en_EN/pages/home/wwd)

ECGD (http://www.ukexportfinance.gov.uk/).

The US Ex-Im Bank may become involved if it has GE or PW engines.

Australia has EFIC (http://www.efic.gov.au/Pages/homepage.aspx).

Sonny Hammond

28th Feb 2013, 01:47

ASY68, answer: they wont.

(Expensive) QF ground handling will be wound up and replaced by the alliance service.

Another way that QF is being slowly killed off.

If you google the ground handling company in question you will see they have spread their wings far and wide.

The Green Goblin

28th Feb 2013, 03:08

You know what though?

Gone are the days when you have three generations of bag chuckers working for Qantas earning pretty decent wages. While the base hourly rate isn't exactly a doctors wage, with all the add ons it becomes almost comparable to a white collar workers salary.

It's an unskilled job, anyone can do it. If you want to improve your terms and conditions, get marketable skills that will secure your income with education and training.

I empathise with the folks that signed up to work for Qantas in good faith, and the conditions that accompany it. I understand it's the national carrier and workers have a sense of pride in working for Qantas along with the additional benefits it entails (staff travel).

I believe though that excessive costs are what is causing the roo to slowly retreat. I'm all for paying top dollar to the folks that have the skill, qualifications and training to deserve it. I don't have a socialist mentality that everyone should have a slice of the same pie.

The unskilled labour union representatives are strangling the company.

The unions such as AIPA and the ALAEA just want appropriate conditions for their members which recognize their specialist skills and technical knowledge which benefits the company.

600ft-lb

28th Feb 2013, 03:20

Yeah but Qantas have already gone out of their way to make their ground handling staff redundant by replacing new for old/retired/redundant with QGS on flat rate $18-19/hour staff.

If paying your ramp staff that little in this country is still strangling the company, maybe its got less to do with front line productive staff and more to do with office dwelling non productive support staff who build empires and create 'work' for themselves.

600ft-lb

28th Feb 2013, 03:28

http://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/agreements/wpa/CAUGN096197607.pdf

There is the QGS agreement.

Most of them are classification GC1 - $726/week or GC2 $749/week

VS

http://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/agreements/fwa/AE880650.pdf

Toll Dnata's agreement

$51238 /year for the same ramp staff

Metro man

28th Feb 2013, 03:31

The unions such as AIPA and the ALAEA just want appropriate conditions for their members which recognize their specialist skills and technical knowledge which benefits the company.

If these members went to Dubai they would probably secure employment on better terms and conditions than they enjoy in Australia.

How much do Emirates pay baggage handlers and non performing managers ?:rolleyes:

neville_nobody

28th Feb 2013, 04:11

They operate in a business friendly environment with a government which realises the importance of aviation and supports it's development. As a result they are profitable and expanding, obviously pursuing a long term strategy.

And pay no tax, are also the regulator, and own the airport.

Imagine if Alan Joyce was the CEO of Qantas and the head of CASA and had a seat on the board of Sydney Airport, that's the kind of control these guys have.

The Green Goblin

28th Feb 2013, 07:21

And what are the legacy guys on?

waren9

28th Feb 2013, 09:21

Imagine if Alan Joyce was the CEO of Qantas and the head of CASA and had a seat on the board of Sydney Airport, that's the kind of control these guys have.

well, atleast the arabs are making a fist of it. more than can be said of either joyce or that red headed clown.

Stalins ugly Brother

28th Feb 2013, 12:39

Imagine if Alan Joyce was the CEO of Qantas and the head of CASA and had a seat on the board of Sydney Airport, that's the kind of control these guys have.

He would still screw it up!

I would go as far as to say if Qantas was a brothel and it was full of super models this management would still lose money and screw it up. :ugh:

The Love Doctor

28th Feb 2013, 14:17

It's an unskilled job, anyone can do it.

That is completely incorrect. It requires a certain physical and mental strength to work at that job for any length of time and it can be utterly brutal on your body.

I worked as a baggage handler for a few years and saw fully grown men reduced to tears stacking bags in the hold of an aircraft because they couldnt keep up and countless people try it for a few shifts then chuck it in because they weren't physically up to it.

Yes it is unskilled but no, not everybody can do it.

Sunfish

28th Feb 2013, 18:32

Agree with Love Doctor. I volunteered for it as a bit of a Lark (staff labour) during a baggage handling stirke in the late 1970's.

You have to keep things moving and there are enough one off anomalies thrown at you to keep you mentally alert - from effing bicycles to coffins, not to mention "lost" baggage and stuff requiring international connections. Physicaly, the worst was the DC9/MD tunnels.

And you had better be wearing leather gloves at all times or you will be bleeding by end of shift.

To a casual eye, it looks like people are just loafing around - just like the road gang guys resting on their shovels watching one man dig or swing the pick. Try it for Eight hours and see for yourself.

The Green Goblin

28th Feb 2013, 21:59

Been there, done that, bought the T shirt.

Maybe the 737 and Jungle jets can be a little more physical, but anything with a can is a doozy.

Gingerbread

20th Mar 2013, 06:57

Anyone spotted this last Friday . . . seems like the ALAEA is having a red hot go at the "Alliance" and the ACCC.

Here's the link to the ALAEA's latest submission lodged on 14 March :

Qantas Airways Limited & Emirates - Authorisations - A91332 & A91333 (http://transition.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1078153/fromItemId/278039/display/submission)

Engineers urge ACCC to delay Qantas tie-up

* by: Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
* March 15, 2013 12:00AM
QANTAS engineers have indicated they might lodge an appeal if the competition regulator gives the flying kangaroo's alliance with Emirates the final go-ahead this month.

The airlines have already received a draft green light and interim authorisation to move ahead with the alliance, which is due to launch at the end of the month.

But the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association has raised concerns about the transparency of the deal and questioned the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission's assessment of key issues.

"We don't think that the applicants have provided the information, or at least it's not been made available to the other stakeholders if they have," ALAEA general manager Peter Somerville said.

"And this is part of the issue, a lack of transparency. We've repeatedly asked for access to the master Co-ordination Agreement, or those parts that are not commercial in confidence, and we've been repeatedly told we can't have access to any of it."

The union wants the ACCC to agree to a three-month extension on the decision and said it would look at an appeal to the Australian Competition Tribunal if the alliance was approved.

Mr Somerville said the union had sought advice on a possible appeal but now believed there was potential to consider the substantive issues raised by the application and test Qantas and Emirates on the claimed benefits.

The association has lodged a 39-page submission in an attempt to convince the ACCC to look more closely at the public benefits and detriments of the deal.

Mr Somerville said the competition watchdog's analysis had been "once over lightly" and questioned whether the likely benefits found, in terms of extra destinations, the loyalty program and wider connectivity, were real.

The union also believed the detriments stemming from the deal were greater than the ACCC had assessed.

"We've tried to critique the ACCC's findings based on the applicant's information and, after looking at all of those things, we think the public benefit doesn't outweigh the public detriment in this," he said.

One area that has the engineers particularly worried is whether the deal will allow Qantas and Emirates to join forces on maintenance, resulting in skilled jobs heading overseas.

While they concede that heavy maintenance on the A380s will remain offshore, Mr Somerville said there was other work that could go to Dubai.

Heavy Metal

21st Mar 2013, 04:08

So, 10 days to go until the first revenue flights(less until QF aircraft start to position). Tickets through Dubai are still being sold "subject to regulatory approval". Seriously doubt the ACCC would will not rule in favour, eventually, but can the the airlines proceed with the first flights,on the interim ruling?

Ken Borough

21st Mar 2013, 05:12

HM,

It's the crews that have to be in place rather than aircraft. Because ACCC approval may not appear until late, then I suspect that Qantas, being the good planners that they are, will be ready to roll with either the new regime or a continuation of what we now know and love. :ok:

TIMA9X

21st Mar 2013, 07:34

One area that has the engineers particularly worried is whether the deal will allow Qantas and Emirates to join forces on maintenance, resulting in skilled jobs heading overseas. Yep, the same applies to pilot and ground staff jobs. https://www.tolldnata.com/portal/page/portal/TOLL_DNATA/Home/Partners/Dnata

For me, I see the EK/QF deal, if allowed to go ahead as a tool to circumnavigate the Qantas sales act and reduce Q staff levels across Australia favouring third party labour companies.

I suspect that Qantas, being the good planners that they are, will be ready to roll with either the new regime or a continuation of what we now know and love. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifI agree & well said KB in this case. better the devil that you know....etc.. ;)

GlobalMaster

21st Mar 2013, 07:35

WOW! It’s not often an underdog gets to deliver a body blow to a Body Corporate.

In the matter of ALAEA v QF & EK in the ACCC however, the ALAEA may yet bring the QF/EK tie-up to its knees. Don’t think the above submission written by the General Manager is the knockout punch some are hoping for, but may well be enough to:

• Reduce the scope of what QF/EK are intending, and
• Put off for another day, the as yet unknown global strategy QF/EK want to roll out with the blessing of the ACCC.

Nonetheless, even if the ACCC is less accommodating than expected, can’t see the present QF leadership rolling back the offshoring of A380 heavy maintenance.

Where it may make a difference, is fending off an Asian based entity intent on taking over QF’s Australia to Asia operations with 787’s based somewhere other than down-under later this decade.

Well done Peter Somerville. Either way, it’s your time in the sun.

TIMA9X

24th Mar 2013, 13:42

ACCC keeps airlines on tenterhooks over alliance (http://www.smh.com.au/business/accc-keeps-airlines-on-tenterhooks-over-alliance-20130324-2gnvu.html)

Qantas is unlikely to find out whether it has final clearance from the competition regulator for its extensive alliance with Emirates until the middle of this week, just days before it is due to begin.
The airlines plan to launch their tie-up on Sunday but the absence of a final decision from the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission leaves their management teams on tenterhooks. The shifting of Qantas' main overseas hub from Singapore to Emirates' base in Dubai is a highly complex operation.
The deal with the Middle Eastern airline - which is mostly focused on routes to Europe via Dubai - is expected to win final approval but the regulator could impose stiff conditions on code-sharing on flights between Australia and New Zealand.
The ACCC has previously indicated that it will make the pair live up to their promise not to reduce overall capacity on trans-Tasman routes. The airlines also need approval from New Zealand's Transport Minister, Gerry Brownlee, for trans-Tasman flights.

The whole thing appears to be a bit of a nightmare for Mr Sims, a bit more complicated than he first thought, interesting video when looking back to what Sims said back in December.

Would be good to be a fly on the wall over at the ACCC this week. :hmm:

VdY5EIHxN_4

haughtney1

24th Mar 2013, 14:41

The airlines also need approval from New Zealand's Transport Minister, Gerry Brownlee, for trans-Tasman flights.

Just give Gerry a few meat pies and a cream puff or 20.....he'll be sweet:E

WorthWhat

24th Mar 2013, 23:51

Indeed TIMAX! the whole thing does appear to be a bit of a nightmare for Mr Sims.

In its 13 March submission, the ALAEA states that Qantas alone has over 300 related body corporates and submits that the ACCC, (without knowing what all QF’s & EK’s related body corporates do and are intending to do), cannot appropriately gauge the anticompetitive cost benefits of the tie up.

If ALAEA is correct on this point, and it has not been possible for the ACCC to fully establish the activities and conduct of all QF/EK related body corporates, but Sims signs of on what Qantas and Emirates have asked for anyway, expect the lawyers will cry tears of joy.

Sleepless nights beckon.

WorthWhat

26th Mar 2013, 00:16

ACCC approves Qantas Asia move
SMH 26 Mar 2013

The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) authorised Qantas to coordinate with Jetstar's operations in Singapore, Vietnam, Japan and Hong Kong on passenger and cargo services, the regulator said in a statement this morning.

But the authorisation does not extend to coordination between the airline owners, the ACCC said.

If the ACCC applies the same criteria to the QF/EK tie up, expect the result will mean reduced opportunity to use competition immunity to bypass the Qantas Sale Act when thinking about establishing a Qantas Emirates Joint Venture in Asia.

Hmmm! Suspect the ALAEA will soon be smiling, but not so sure about Geoff Dixon and hard to say what a similar ACCC decision will mean for Qantas and Emirates long term.

hotnhigh

26th Mar 2013, 01:18

Worth what, any odds with sportingbet about the ACCC passing this deal as is?
Unfortunately, this will get up like all things involving the big end of town, qantas, chairmans lounges, pig troughs and the rest.

ampclamp

26th Mar 2013, 02:53

Of course it will fly. They spent a motza setting it up, killed the Asian way to Europe and went on a media blitz to sell it. There will be some hoops but they will largely get their wishes. Sounds like they have made some good moves for staff with travel benefits on EK flights.

hotnhigh

26th Mar 2013, 04:01

Amp, I think the problem for staff will be, that because ek is in the business of being an airline and not a travel agent, ala alan style, They are obviously aggressively growing the business and attempting to attract as many full fare paying passengers they can get. Something qantas seems to have given up on.

Perhaps ek staff might want to venture on here and comment on the pros and cons of their staff travel arrangements and perhaps an incite into the difficulties of getting to certain destinations because of commercial load considerations. After all, qf staff will be in a very long queue behind them to get on board, and rightly so.
It's still amazing the way this crap is shovelled down qf staffs throat, as the best thing since sliced bread, this morning from the ceo.
I wonder what his on load category will be?
Was it smashing pumpkins with the song about the beginning of the end of the beginning?:{:{

OnceBitten

26th Mar 2013, 04:27

Perhaps ek staff might want to venture on here and comment on the pros and cons of their staff travel arrangements and perhaps an incite into the difficulties of getting to certain destinations because of commercial load considerations.

Similar as Qantas, just depends of time of year. Although we do have a few more destinations to choose from. :E

Look on the bright side HotnHigh, you also get a higher priority on Jetstar than EK staff. Now thats a win! :p

TIMA9X

26th Mar 2013, 05:02

Of course it will fly. They spent a motza setting it up, killed the Asian way to Europe and went on a media blitz to sell it.I guess EK & QF think they have the deal in the bag, so what's the hold up?

Interesting piece from Ben Sandilands

Qantas-Emirates? T minus 5 days and counting | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2013/03/26/qantas-emirates-t-minus-5-days-and-counting/)
due to begin this Sunday. Or it might not. The competition regulator and Qantas have not batted an eyelid for more than a week in which most of the airline sector anticipated the deals would be sealed.

C441

26th Mar 2013, 05:08

How ironic it would be if we (QF staff) had a better chance of getting on an Emirates/Qantas flight via an Emirates ticket, than getting on a Qantas flight where we sit behind the "IT guru" who started last year, despite the fact that we are on a 30 year long service trip!:ugh:

ampclamp

26th Mar 2013, 05:35

Tim, I hear tomorrow maybe the day. It will be conditional but I just can't see the bulk of it being knocked back.

hotnhigh

26th Mar 2013, 06:09

Its a win-win, once bitten:}.

TIMA9X

26th Mar 2013, 07:12

It will be conditional but I just can't see the bulk of it being knocked back. thanks ampclamp, I agree with you but interesting how Sims made it sound so certain before Christmas. It feels like the legal costs for Q may be way over what was first expected when the deal was proposed.. a lot of last minute stuff to be cleared up one thinks... :hmm:

Derfred

26th Mar 2013, 14:27

Tim: So, Alan, how are all your staff going with with our partnership plans?

Alan: Oh, quite promising I think, Tim. We have just introduced a new initiative to engage our staff with Emirates as a partner and Dubai as a destination. I think it will go very well.

Tim: Very interesting, how does it work?

Alan: Well, we are going to send one of our staff on a flight to Dubai and back.

Tim: Sounds great. Are they are going to do a blog, or write a news article? Will there be press coverage?

Alan: Oh, no, nothing like that. We are just going to send one of our staff there and back.

Tim: OK - and then what?

Alan: I'm not sure I understand the question. That's what we're doing, we're sending one of our staff to Dubai and back.

Tim: Well, it sounds like a great start. What do you hope to achieve?

Alan: Well, it's kind of a competition you see. To engage the staff and get them all excited about the new partnership.

Tim: Oh, that's very exciting. What do they have to do to win? Come up with a marketing idea?

Alan: Ah, nothing like that - we have already selected the winner. He won't complain.

Tim: Won't complain? What do you mean?

Alan: Well, he's an A380 Second Officer you see - from now on he'll be spending half his life in Dubai anyway. And if he doesn't like it, he can resign and join Emirates. Either way, his future is Dubai, so he can't exactly complain can he?

Tim: You truly are the smartest man in the room. What about the rest of the staff?

Alan: Well, we've got that covered. We're sending them all a sealed and confidential letter telling them that they are not going to Dubai.

Tim: Telling them that they are not going?

Alan: Yes, we've spent a lot of money sending letters containing expensive glossy cards to all our staff telling them they are not going to Dubai.

Tim: Were they expecting to go to Dubai?

Alan: I don't think so.

Tim: I'm confused. You are sending letters to your staff, who weren't expecting nor planning to go to Dubai, to tell them that they aren't going to Dubai?

Alan: Correct. They're not going this time.

Tim: This time? Ah, sorry, now I understand. You'll be sending more staff later?

Alan: Oh, no. Whilst this was a very costly initiative - and we would like to do it again sometime down the track - we need to stay focussed on our commitment to turning our airline around. Re-engaging our staff is our main priority going forward.

Tim: Great news. Thank you Alan.

clear to land

26th Mar 2013, 15:54

As far as EK staff travel goes-well it's just not that easy if you want to go anywhere you would actually want to go. This airline has amazing load factors-to the detriment of non-rev travel. The best shot of getting anywhere is if you have the luxury of J upgradeable F, and even then I have seen guys with 20 years+ seniority take 3 or more days to get out of DXB-with at least 3 flights a day going where they want. Our staff travel is DoJ seniority prioritised, and that carries across to our family eg if my DoJ is 1 day before yours my wife/mother/father etc have a higher priority than you in the eligible travel class. CA get J upgradeable F entitlement, F/O and Purser get Y upgradeable J. We have approx 3500 Pilots and 17000 + Cabin Crew at present, growing all the time, and they will all be in front of a QF Staff traveller with the same entitlement. Flipside is QF staff get access to an ever growing network-based on space available. There are NO upgrades beyond your entitlement. Hope that answers the previous question.

C441

26th Mar 2013, 22:32

Qantas alliance with Emirates approved by ACCC for 5 years (That should be more than long enough for Alan to achieve his goal)
....more to come

Conductor

26th Mar 2013, 23:09

An excerpt from the report, via Ben Sandilands at Crikey:

“The ACCC has assessed the public benefits and detriments of the alliance on the basis that the scope of Qantas’ international operations in the likely future without the alliance is not materially different to the likely future with the alliance. In particular, the ACCC does not accept or rely on the claim that Qantas International is in “terminal decline” and unable to compete effectively or operate profitably absent the alliance,” Mr Sims said.

So it seems to me that the ACCC has rightly rejected the false dilemma put forward by Joyce that without the deal, QF international will be dead but at the same time the deal has been approved with acknowledgement that there will not be significant material public benefit. So all the QF job losses will be for what exactly?

ampclamp

26th Mar 2013, 23:35

Derfred, do you write for Clarke and Dawe? That's pretty good.:D

As expected the ACCC delivered on Wednesday.

Mstr Caution

26th Mar 2013, 23:35

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/accc-gives-final-nod-to-qantas-emirates-pact/story-e6frg95x-1226607393536)

The Australian have failed to mention Mr Sims view on AJ's terminal decline statements.

The alliance was a key plank in Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce's bid to return the Flying Kangaroo's international operations to profitability.

Wally Mk2

26th Mar 2013, 23:38

Will be interesting how shifty Joice will get around the condition the ACCC has put on the merger regarding the Trans Tasman flights between the two companies.
I see also that RS has had a little speech to the Press pretty much justifying his/their role to keep the bastards honest, maybe his conscience is giving him some trouble! Have a peek at the Govt Speeches link, gee it's a dirty business!

The ACCC, a Govt/QF run organization.....cough cough cough:yuk:

Wmk2

denabol

27th Mar 2013, 00:50

No such reluctance about going for the jugular on Plane Talking this morning.

ACCC didn't give Qantas-Emirates deal a ringing endorsement | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2013/03/27/accc-didnt-give-qantas-emirates-deal-a-ringing-endorsement/)

What getz me is how the daily media pussy foot around the bleeding obvious at times.

I'm keen to support Qantas but it seems to do everything possible to make me choose a different airline when family members to Europe or Asia, including a daughter who has to fly to Asia around six times a year. I've taken to Virgin for the few Australia flights I do, but some of us fly a lot, and Qantas has just lost the plot.

Which raises the expectations of Qantas from the Emirates partnership, in that they obviously expect that existing Qantas customers will dutifully accept flying in Emirates jets. As in Qantas, We are the reason you fly Emirates.
The fact is that Emirates has already won very strong customer loyalty in Australia, and in its A380s, has product that makes the Qantas A380 alternative look unexceptional. The Emirates 777s are another matter, being great aircraft rather tightly configured, although Emirates may revise those configurations and has already let slip that it will improve its 777 business class offering.
The risk is that those Qantas customers that haven’t already defected to Emirates are probably not going to revisit their choices once Qantas dumps them if they fly to Europe from Brisbane, Perth or Adelaide, but will take their business somewhere else, such as to Singapore Airlines, Etihad or Cathay Pacific.
Those Qantas customers that are exposed to an Emirates A380 may well choose Emirates over Qantas in the future, given that both frequent flyer programs are very good, and have good crossovers. Those Qantas customers who change flights to an Emirates service to say, Manchester or Hamburg, in Dubai, would have an incentive to choose to fly all the way on Emirates the next time, since it will be more convenient to do so in most circumstances.
These risks or considerations are reason to query just where the Qantas-Emirates partnership will take Qantas, but as the ACCC determination makes clear, these were not matters it had to consider under its charter.
It is there to make sure Australians enjoy competitive choice. It isn’t there to stop Qantas imploding on routes to the UK and Europe.

Ultergra

27th Mar 2013, 01:37

The last sentence..

It is there to make sure Australians enjoy competitive choice. It isn’t there to stop Qantas imploding on routes to the UK and Europe.

Hmmmmmmm

TIMA9X

27th Mar 2013, 05:15

So all the QF job losses will be for what exactly? It's all about the boards wallets, not Australian jobs.
loopholes
Qantas too has made substantial buybacks - $16 million in 2012 and $65 million the year before - wading into the market to buy shares for its executives at a time when it had been conserving capital and suspending dividends. my bold

Read more: Companies use loopholes to buy shares (http://www.smh.com.au/business/companies-use-loopholes-to-buy-shares-20130326-2gs91.html#ixzz2Oi92SLWw)

To the ACCC's credit, good to see they made a point about Oxford Economics and Boston Consulting.

Many on here to their credit, have said this over and over again for some time now, good to see it finally recognised and out in the open but in the eyes of many, again they get away with the smoke & mirrors.

I understand Mr Sims got the Q lawyers jumping through hoops the past week making them resubmit many documents that were deemed light on facts. To be fair to Mr Sims, it is not in the ACCC's charter to pursue all the reasons why there where problems with the documents but I think many on here would have a pretty good idea what those problems may have been.....

"The ACCC has rejected Qantas' claims that in the future without the proposed conduct, it will cease all international services and operate a virtual network in the medium to long term," it said.
The regulator considered confidential board documents and route profitability data, as well as reports provided by Qantas from Boston Consulting and Oxford Economics.
The performance of Qantas's international operations have long been a point of contention in the war of words between Qantas boss Alan Joyce and trade unions and the federal independent senator Nick Xenophon.
In its report granting approval, the regulator accepted Qantas was likely to cut services to Europe with or without the Emirates alliance but said "in all other areas" of its international operations any disadvantages were likely to be offset by its grip on the domestic market and the loyalty of frequent flyers and corporates.
The ACCC considered that Qantas did not have the same advantage as airlines in the Middle East and Asia, such as lower labour costs.
"However, the ACCC does not accept that the extent of the labour cost disadvantage are of the degree described by [Qantas and Emirates] or in the Oxford Economics report," it said.
It also did not place any weight on Qantas' claims of "structural disadvantage" due to government ownership and different tax treatment for other international airlines.
"The ACCC considers that the net effect of these factors on Qantas is unclear and therefore has not placed any weight on these claims," it said.

Read more: Cleared for takeoff but ACCC dismisses Qantas 'decline' claim (http://www.smh.com.au/business/cleared-for-takeoff-but-accc-dismisses-qantas-decline-claim-20130327-2gtfs.html#ixzz2Oi6Fq1G3)

My main concern is for the current 744 pilots future, they did a sterling job keeping the show on the road through those difficult times when the RB 211's started playing up (all incidents handled superbly) coupled with the "dugong's" late delivery leading up to the now famous QF 32 SIN incident.

The 744 guys kept the flag flying with the usual minimum of fuss. Hope AJ LC & co remembers this now that they have got their way with the EK deal, Qantas was always home grown.. my tribute to the 744 guys...

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