Ghost pilots

[A319]

http://www.havarikommissionen.dk/~/media/Files/Havarikommissionen/Havarirapporter/Luftfart%202012/HCLJ510_2012_155.ashx

Been reading this Report regarding a Lear crash in Denmark recently. Amazed that we in Europe see "Ghost Pilots" who disregard rules & regs to such a degree.

In short the pilot thought to be a mexican pilot was in fact a internationally wanted Iranian without a pilot license. He held two false US licenses and flew the Lear as single pilot!

Ran out of fuel and crash on short approach having neglected to switch to another fuel tank with fuel...

The Lear's airworthiness certificate expired 2005!


Where is aviation heading when this is still possible?

[Agaricus bisporus]

How often had FBOs seen him off single pilot? I know it's "not their job" but you'd have thought that someone, in all those years...

But far more importantly this represents an appalling breach of Security. Here are the rest of us uniformed licenced checked to the limit pilots flying fully accredited airliners being searched, groped, fingered, touched up and turned over on a daily basis by the "security" staff, our lives are regulated by officious and largely useless paranoid legislation, we are locked into our cockpits and generally treated like potential criminals all day long and here is an unlicenced IRANIAN illegally flying an unlicenced plane for YEARS single pilot and "no one has noticed".

Is it me or is this a horrific failing in view of the security situation we are all (all but unlicenced Iranians apparently) subjected to? It gives me no faith whatsoever in the usefulness of "security" if someone with such a blatantly hazardous profile gets away with this for so long.

Frankly I'm staggered this hasn't caused an international uproar. But perhaps, actually, no one outside the shareholders of the "security" industry really cares? Least of all our slippery teflon coated politicos.

:ugh:

[LGW Vulture]

Already being discussed here......

http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/496062-d-cmmm-down-denmark.html

[A319]

OK, but I was debating the fake licenses and airworthiness issues. Not the crash itself...

More important OMHO...

[BOAC]

Frightening, A319. Out of interest, is the Lear a mandatory two pilot a/c flown privately?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Not entirely something new. I once knew a flying instructor and owner of a flying club who lost his medical certificate due to heart problems but carried on flying and instructing.

[A319]

Not my area (I'm Airbus), but this specific a/c was two pilot ops. The pax was first thought to be a co pilot but was later identified as pax.

BTW: The fuel tank he neglected to switch over to, only contained 160L... :=

[His dudeness]

Is it me or is this a horrific failing in view of the security situation we are all (all but unlicenced Iranians apparently) subjected to?

Its you. Or have you seen all car drivers checked before driving if they are properly licensed?

[His dudeness]

Frightening, A319. Out of interest, is the Lear a mandatory two pilot a/c flown privately?

No its not since it was not airworthy and not on any reg. ;)

If properly registrated and operated in Germany it requires 2 guys licensed and rated.

[Globally Challenged]

Its you. Or have you seen all car drivers checked before driving if they are properly licensed?

No, but in a pub you could expect a barman to remove the keys of a driver who is clearly drunk.

Also, we all know we have to carry our licence (amongst other things) and I have had it checked several times a year (yes - maybe I just have one of those faces .... :rolleyes:) - this happens particularly when operating into the US and in some of the smaller French fields (not a proper SAFA but just as a security check)

[His dudeness]

No, but in a pub you could expect a barman to remove the keys of a driver who is clearly drunk.

If said driver is arrested for DUI (which is sort of a bad example since one can usually see when someone is real drunk, apart from seing who is a licence holder and who isnt) will the landlord get a ticket? Or should rather all other drivers be required to do an alcohol test before driving?

I would like to maintain the status of "innocent until proven guilty".

Ag bis mentioned the "FBO" - to the best of my knowledge there is no FBO in Schönhagen where the airplane was based. And if an FBO would like to see my licence I´d be reluctant to show it to them. Not their business. Period.

What I want to say is:

beware what you wish for.

1984 is way beyond us and still people want more stringent rules, more observation/oversight etcetc. Scary.

Also, we all know we have to carry our licence (amongst other things) and I have had it checked several times a year

Yes we know and we do (I hope !) OTOH, does that or any other reg keep the bad boys away ?

[what next]

Just a question to the moderators: Why has this thread been moved to "Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc."?
Do you really think that only our segment of the market has pilots with fake paperwork?

[Trim Stab]

I recently finished some freelance flying with a British company. At no point did they ever ask to see my licence or medical.

My licence and medical were valid throughout the contract because I am diligent and careful, but nevertheless I was surprised that they never even bothered to check.

I happen to know that one of the other contractors who still flies for them does not have a medical, nor is even rated on the class.

[His dudeness]

My licence and medical were valid throughout the contract because I am diligent and careful, but nevertheless I was surprised that they never even bothered to check.

I happen to know that one of the other contractors who still flies for them does not have a medical, nor is even rated on the class.

Donnu how that is handled in the UK, but if I lend my car I have to check if the person has a valid licence. If an accident happens and the drivers got no licence, sh.it hits the fan for me as an owner...

I take it was not commercial ops you did ?

[EddieHeli]

I happen to know that one of the other contractors who still flies for them does not have a medical, nor is even rated on the class.

If you know this as a FACT and did nothing about it then you are as bad as he/she is IMO.

[Globally Challenged]

If said driver is arrested for DUI (which is sort of a bad example since one can usually see when someone is real drunk, apart from seing who is a licence holder and who isnt) will the landlord get a ticket? Or should rather all other drivers be required to do an alcohol test before driving?

No there is very unlikely to be any criminal charges for the third party - but everyone has to base their actions on their own ethics / morals.

If you (as an FBO - or anyone else who may be aware) see a single pilot operating a multi-pilot type, then maybe you would consider what the consequences of just a pilot flying your family or taking their jet over the house of your family.

If I saw it and was certain this was happening then I would certainly make it known to the tower / authorities to prevent them getting airborne.

Donnu how that is handled in the UK, but if I lend my car I have to check if the person has a valid licence. If an accident happens and the drivers got no licence, sh.it hits the fan for me as an owner...

Having passed through 4 UK commercial operators, I had ALL my documents scrutinised before I was able to operate.

[His dudeness]

Having passed through 4 UK commercial operators, I had ALL my documents scrutinised before I was able to operate.

Same procedure here. And when I freelance for a noncom ops I sent them my stuff up front. Cause I could overlook sumthin too...and I have no desire to get caught trousers down.

[500 above]

I happen to know that one of the other contractors who still flies for them does not have a medical, nor is even rated on the class.

If you are for real, perhaps you need to question your own morality. That needs to be reported.

[StressFree]

500 Above

Well said sir, I couldn't agree more.............:D

[N707ZS]

I see the learjet performed 12 flights before the accident and no one said anything.

[what next]

I see the learjet performed 12 flights before the accident and no one said anything.

12 flights in 2012 that were recorded by Eurocontrol. There could have been others (local VFR or VFR between small airfields like his homebase)!

But who should have said something, and on what basis? I fly bizjets too, but I know almost nothing about the types that I don't fly myself. There are quite a few single-pilot jets around, how would I know, if this type of Learjet requires two pilots? And why would I care, am I a policeman or what?

And regarding his fake license(s): As he flew to some larger airports with security gates too (LFSB, LEPA, LOWS, ESMS), I'm almost sure that he had to show his license and documents more than once. If they were good enough to fool security personnel and border police, why should anybody else become suspicious?

[N707ZS]

I will explain, it was the last Learjet 24 in Europe I personally thought it was preserved. It had been parked up for X number of years and sudenly became active. These are just a couple of things people might of noticed but obviously didn't.

[what next]

...it was the last Learjet 24 in Europe I personally thought it was preserved.

It had been stored at the museum in Altenrhein for some years, indeed!

It had been parked up for X number of years and sudenly became active. These are just a couple of things people might of noticed but obviously didn't.

There are quite a few oldtimers flying out there. Occasionally I recognise one and will say something like "haven't seen one of those for quite some time..." but this is about it. Not so long ago, I even saw a Super Constellation :O But did that make me suspicious of it's paperwork? Certainly not!

[aerobat77]

I recently finished some freelance flying with a British company. At no point did they ever ask to see my licence or medical.

a commercial operator ?

in germany , flying commercial, you have to be listed in the company and reported to the LBA as being employed there, also when flying freelance for this company.

this will ( should ) remove any faked licences or medicals since they will check the licence number. a rating entry into the licence is also issued only by the LBA , but a line check can be put manually by the examiner into the licence.

this applies like said only when flying commercially. freelancing private for an owner may look indeed different.

is it different in uk ?

[Fanda_2007]

I fear that the real implications of this case have not been addressed. An Iranian has been flying, pretending to be Brasilian, and floating around the Schengen area without checks - because this is what Schengen is about. What and or who was he carrying? Why did he pretend to be another national? The international security forces seem to have failed to recognise this character's movements for a long time.

[KBPsen]

The international security forces seem to have failed to recognise this character's movements for a long time. What "International security forces"?

There are certainly some safety issues raised by this case, but I have yet to see any concerning security. You do understand the difference between safety and security?
It's a bit too tabloid to start asking a lot of hand wringing "what if" questions without knowing if it has any relevancy at all.

That he is/was using a false identity is perhaps not surprising as he apparently is wanted in several countries in connection with alleged fraud.

[cockney steve]

I TOLD him that 13 was unlucky :} Ah, well, Darwinism rules!