View Full Version : Long Delays After the 19th....

250 kts
16th Apr 2001, 23:05
... due to the introduction of RVSM. This is the reduction in separation above FL290 from 2000ft To 1000ft.
A reduction in traffic by 20% will be imposed on the affected sectors ie. all of them. This is due to the fact that it's not certain how many RA's will be activated by TCAS. Our documentation says that the crews will have been given special training for the introduction. Can anyone tell us what that entailed?
Keep a good look out!!!!

17th Apr 2001, 03:04
This was supposed to reduce delays!

"Training" has been cumpulsory reading of a new manual/ supplement and the introduction of new calls.

17th Apr 2001, 13:02
RVSM where exactly?

17th Apr 2001, 13:08
Within UK airspace. RVSM mandated in EUR RVSM Areas between FL290 - FL410 inclusive takes effect 24 Jan 2002. RVSM has been incorporated into SOPs, applicable manuals and there has been more than adequate training and dissemination of info within our company.

17th Apr 2001, 13:16
i thought RVSM was already in existence in NATS and east of Australia for quite awhile now?

17th Apr 2001, 14:20
Have had a company notice about reducing the Rate of Climb/Descent to less than 1000'/min when within 1000' of the cleared level.


The Fat Controller
17th Apr 2001, 15:43
Having operated the RVSM system in parts of Scottish UIR for 2 years or so I can honestly say that there have been few TCAS occurences.
I think most pilots are aware enough of the traffic in their CLOSE proximity that rates of climb and descent have been sensibly applied and monitored.
I am sure my colleagues in London will have no problem in adapting to the changes, and in a few weeks time will wonder what all the fuss was about.
Just watch out for those aircraft that are still allowed up there but are not RVSM approved, they are the one that cause the problems !!!!!!!!


18th Apr 2001, 03:42

Difference being that there is very little traffic in the Scottish UIR?

HH (They don'y call us Primas for nothing.....joke!)

18th Apr 2001, 07:30
Isn't EU RVSM mandated later in the year but UK has gone it alone ???

The Fat Controller
18th Apr 2001, 12:17
I've taken the bait........
Come up and try a 10 West interface sector on a 7 track day, it may surprise you.
Enough of the sarcasm, all I was trying to do was point out that there have been fewer problems with TCAS than some would imagine.
From the ATCO's point of view I'm sure we will all adapt quickly.


21st Apr 2001, 15:34
i believe with updated version 7 of the tcas, it would eliminate 'nuisance' TAs...

21st Apr 2001, 15:59

Seems like pushing TCAS limits of any sort is something like being " ...a little bit pregnant."

Imagine someone reacting to such a TCAS alert, convinced that it isn't the innocent kind. Or someone NOT reacting to a real one, but being tired and not reacting in time.

Anything for a buck.

22nd Apr 2001, 02:00
From Nth Atlantic Ops, TCAS TAs are quite frequent - but by their nature, not a problem.

Sensible RoC /RoD should avoid RAs - but this is no different to lower level stuff in TMAs...

If this is the reason for reducing capacity in areas with double the FLs, sounds a bit OTT!


250 kts
22nd Apr 2001, 22:12
No Nigel, this isn't the only reason for a reduction in the flow rates. The introduction of RVSM results in controllers, after only 4 hours of familiarisation, having to erradicate from their minds the habits of operation of a "lifetime". e.g. FL310 and 350 previously being westbound, have now become eastbound levels.

Some of the aircraft which are supposed to be RVSM equipped and indicated as so on our flight progress strips have turned out not to be and consequently additional separation problems have been encountered when not expected. Also, other traffic which is not indicated as RVSM equipped, is.

Previous claims that the introduction of RVSM in Scottish airspace did not cause any major problems is due to the fact that their traffic tends to be less in density and more omni directional, with fewer crossing tracks than encountered in LATCC airspace (sorry SCATCC, but true).

I would agree that from a pilot's point of view, these changes may appear to be minimal, but if you have ever bothered to go around an area control unit then you would realise the major impact that this type of change would have.

In addition to this, controllers at LATCC are having to cope with numerous major changes in sectorisation, together with training on new equipment for the proposed opening of Swanwick.

I hope this helps your understanding of the situation better and, as I said on my initial post, "keep a good lookout".