Time wasting job adverts

[pilotchute]

Why is it some companies require over the top mins when frankly if I had that sort of time I wouldn't be going anywhere near them. No one ad comes to mind but I have to say the amount of ads with "5 IFR renewals" or "endorsed on (place the identifiers for at least 5 piston twin a/c here)" is really a bit over the top. What is even more astounding is when you call them to ask for more info and they announce that "we pay the award!" like they want a medal for doing something that they are required to do by law.

A good friend of mine who has been around for more than five minutes thinks that a lot of CP's are still stuck in the 80's and think that anyone with 3000TT with 500 multi would jump at the chance to fly their beat up old PA31. I know one person with that sort of time who is still flying pistons and the only reason for this is because the deal he is on now is better than any FO job on a turbo prop around by far.

Turbo prop jobs available with 1000TT (or less) with little or no multi.
Qlink
Skytrans
Customs
Air NZ link
Hardy's

In the not to distant future you will no longer need 500 multi command to be a Capt on a low capacity RPT aircraft. What will happen then? Out of that list Skytrans and Hardys are the only one that requires it and Hardys get you the hours in house.

Now if I was prepared to cover my own type rating and had 1500TT with 500 multi command (please don't turn this into a pay for type bashing thread) would I apply to
A Jetstar (only 250 hours multi engine time or co pilot time required)
B Slingair on a PA31

A Tiger (only 250 hours multi engine time or co pilot time required)
B Skippers on a Metro

Both the jet jobs have lower mins than the two GA operators, the only difference being that Slingair don't require ATPL theory credits. Before I hear you scream that you need much more than the mins for the jet operators I can tell you that both have hired people in the last 12 months with on or just over the advertised times. You could also apply to Skywest and Network. You would start on Turbo props but there is a progression to jets with no upfront type rating costs.

Which would you choose?

[Ixixly]

The main reason for 1000hrs TT over in Africa (Depending on the exact country) is more likely to do with Immigration. To get a work visa in Tazania, for example, when I was last looking at it, the government required you to have 1000hr to justify your Work Visa. *EDIT* This does change from time to time I'm told, based on what the companies require and the skills available in country and what the government in question are after.

Second of all, yes they allow guys with only 1000tt to jump in the seat of a Jet, doesn't mean they are definitely ready for it, lower mins are not necessarily a good thing IMHO. The conditions in Africa (This is going by my own experiences and those of people who have flown there), going in and out of short trips, perhaps only 650m, require someone who has their flying as second nature, one little mistake on a 40degree day on a 650m gravel/grass strip at MTOW in a C206 is going to really screw up your day. Not to mention that of course hours aren't the whole story, it also depends what you've been doing for those 1000hrs. So yes some people have probably got in right on the mins but it really depends on the person as well, not just the hours.

Thirdly, don't assume the ad shows exactly what the company is looking for, they may have plans for expansion which require someone to have more hours for a new aircraft they are going to introduce. Perhaps they already have a CP who is experienced on the aircraft and can do the training which is why they don't make mention of it, maybe they don't have firm plans for it either but would prefer someone with those hours to make it easier when/if it comes into play.

Fourthly, not everyone has shiny jet syndrome (Nothing wrong with that of course, everyone has their own dreams!), some of us are perfectly happy to fly around Pistons and smaller Turbines because of the type of flying and the lifestyle. Jets are not the be all and end all of Aviation. I admit that eventually if you want to make good money then the airlines are probably the way to go if you want it quick, but if you're prepared to stick out GA for a while longer and get plenty of hours and experience there are plenty of jobs out there flying Pistons and Small Turbines that will pay well too.

*EDIT*
Just re-read my post and realised it comes across as a bit catty/condescending, my apologies, no offence intended, I blame the early morning start!!

[pilotchute]

Ixixly,

I have removed the reference to the Africa job advert because it isn't relevant for reasons you have just pointed out.

Cheers

[Ixixly]

No worries, just changed mine up a bit as well, came across as a bit rude!! And completely with you on the Award part, its a legal requirement for gods sake!!

[4SPOOLED]

Mate,

You're dreaming if you think you'll get a jet job with minimums. The only ones that do are part of the 'boys club' or cadets.

I was a turboprop skipper with 7 years in the game before I got a look in. Most guys I know getting in are turboprop skippers with at Least 3000 hours.

Also the piston multi jobs are generally client requirements. It's pretty hard to get 500 multi these days with most requiring 500 multi to begin with. That leaves scenic shuttle type work or multi engine instructing to build time.

It's a slippery slope no matter where you are.

Enjoy the journey.

[pilotchute]

Ixixly,

Most people I know would be happy to stay on pistons or small turbo props (King Air for example) if the job wasn't in Alice Springs, Kununnura, Jabiru, Weipa or Katherine. The operators don't want to hire 300 hour guys and invest a bit of training in them, they want guys ready to go who some other mug has spent money on to train.

Unless GA operators can offer some sort of structure to the progression of the new hires they will run at first opportunity. When I started out with my 250 hours I would have happily flown a single for 12 to 18 months if I knew for certain that twin time awaited me. What good is it if my company keeps on getting twin drivers from outside and slots them in above me? I know Alice Springs, Broome and the one remaining Kununurra operator do this constantly.

I hear you shout "contract minimums". Well in the not to distant future planes will sit on the ground if the insurance companies insist on some of these ridiculous flight times required for contracts. Slingair had caravans on the ground and had to get someone else to fly one of its contracts recently. Contract mins are like the old hiring mins. When the stream eventually dries up they will drop.

[Desert Duck]

Pilotchute

Why do you think that everyone wants to fly for an airline or quasi airline?

There are plenty around who actually enjoy GA, and are happy to live and work in the remote areas.

[pilotchute]

Desert Duck

The only people I have met in the NT or NW WA who are keen to hang around in GA are either working for the RFDS or Police Air Wing. Everyone else is just doing the time.

[Ixixly]

I agree entirely Pilotchute, my last job had exactly the same problem. I had a twin dangled infront of me and was happy to stick around for it, when it finally came time everything was very drawn out, I was unable to get the ICUS time to meet insurance minimums because I was too busy flying the Singles as a bunch of people left when they hit that roof and then when I finally did get it all sorted (Almost 3 months after my endorsement!!) there wasn't a lot of work around for it and the next step up was denied me because of being on the Twin (another story, don't ask!).

I was thinking the exact same thing myself, you see all these ads for "Senior Pilots" which becomes a bit worrying when you consider if its because the company simply isn't doing anything to encourage retention of staff, expansion beyond their current staff members experience or it was just simply people moving on.

[601]

Pilotchute

The high hour requirement maybe because of;
Insurance
Client Requirements
Auditor - you don't get recommended for contracts unless you crew have ###
and finally - the Owner who has a vested interest.

I know of a FOI who said it was illegal to require more than the CAO minimum requirements in an OM. He soon got the message that the CASA requirements are a minimum.:ugh:

One company I worked for had a minimum insurance requirement of over 4000 hrs pic for a command on a Queenair.

[lk978]

the reduction in price of turbo prop aircraft (caravans, conquest's...) means that more charter operators and private owners are adding turbo prop (some light jet) aircraft to the fleet.

Also going from single engine turbine to twin engine turbine is not totally un common and not that difficult, I had a look at a PC12 once and christ it was more complex than the old citation for sure.... probably harder and faster to fly too.

I still have a chuckle at the requirements some companies have for aircraft that I don't meet and have plenty of hours in...

Industries evovle, some people get dragged kicking and screaming... I wish we could say that because of the safety and greater standards in training we are now producing more compenant pilot's... I think the aeroplanes are just getting smarter

[morno]

The PC-12 is a very very easy aircraft to fly. Especially the NG's, you barely have to do anything in them.

One power lever, fully automatic pressurisation in the NG's, could barely get any easier.

morno

[Metro man]

No shortage of 3000 hour TOTAL time A320 CAPTAINS here in Asia. Join at 200 hours with a brand new CPL and 3-4 years later you're in the left hand seat.

Many Captains wouldn't meet the insurance requirements for a turbo prop command in PNG, typically 5000 total for a Bandit.

I remember applying for a f/o job on a Metro in Australia in the 1990s, despite having ATPL, 4000+ total with 2500 multi and previous turbine time, I didn't even get an interview. They wanted "ENDORSED" (their capital letters) pilots only.:hmm:

Companies will ask for what they can get away with and in the past it was a lot. With the reduction in new licences being issued, less desirable employers may not have the luxury of choosing from fifteen suitable applicants for each job for much longer.

[VH-XXX]

It's about supply and demand.

There will be literally dozens of resumes come in including many from those that don't come close to the specified minimums. Set the bar high and you might get what you are looking for. Set it low and you will get monkeys.

You'd be surprised how many your guys have ticked over 1,000 hours.

[A37575]

Reading all these posts certainly reveals there never was and never will be a pilot shortage in Australia despite what the flying schools tell you to suck you in.

[jetbrett]

Pilotchute....

This is a very narrow minded thread you have started here...

Someone already beat me to it but there are plenty of pilots out there who like the idea of flying around the outback in twin pistons. The airlines arent always what they are cracked up to be, I fly with Captains that say they would love to go back to GA.

I now fly for one of the above airlines that you mentioned, I love my job, but I also loved my time in GA. I spent 5 years there, 3 more years than I first thought I would. However in that time I worked for 3 different companies, had done over 2500 flights, probably consumed about double the amount of cans and had the most amazing time.

The last company I worked for was again one of the GA companies you mentioned, at which I progressed to become the Dept. CP and CP, and let me just straighten out a few things.

When I would put an ad on AFAP I would cringe because I knew that the minimums the company were requiring were quite high, which immediately narrowed down the field (it would never stop three quarters of the applicants that didnt meet the requirements from applying, but good on them anyway)...
What was also painful was that there were 10 or 20 other pilots within the company hoping, just hoping to get that elusive first twin gig, and let me tell you that I would have loved nothing better than to give them that start, however contract minimums precluded this from happening.

In my experience I found some 1000 hour pilots to be more switched on, sharp, up to date and have better manipulative skills than some of the pilots I saw come through with in excess of 3000 hours....which once again made me mad that 'bigger' clients still demanded such high minimums.

The twin contracts we had were:

Rio Tinto: 2000 hours total time, 500 hours multi command, 3 renewals, 100 hours on type (Pilots could be 20 percent deficient in up to two of these four requirements however it had to be specifically approved, other relevant experience was taken into account)
These requirements are in line with standards and guidelines laid down that most major mining companies in Australia adhere to including Leighton, HWE, BHP, Santos plus many more
RFDS: 1500 hours total time, 300 hours multi command, 3 renewals and 100 hours on type (Again, relevant experience taken into account and exemptions given for slight deficiencies)
Magistrate: Not dissimilar to the above - Had to be approved by the magistrate themselves

The other work the twins did was general charter / walk ins etc. However as theses contracts took up most of the time sometimes accepting a twin charter was not possible. Which then brings up the problem, how could we get OUR pilots to meet the above minimums for these contracts - Answer: We couldnt. Hence we had to advertise for pilots who did!!

4 weeks before I left I advertised for a specific position requiring quite high minimums, I received almost 50 applications.......10 or so who met most of the minimums, some of whom who just wanted to get back into flying after a break, some wanting to get back in the country, and some who just had a genuine love for GA flying.

And to set it straight, the award for someone of the above calibre from memory topped out at about $55k, the average salary for the pilots we had in these positions was 75. Not bad for GA ey :ok:

[Spotlight]

Well summed up jetbrett and good on you for stepping up and doing your bit, DP,Cp etc.

A lot of pilots get a free ride in aviation. Imagine, sooking about being forced to see the North of Australia.

[poteroo]

pilotchute

You may find that the 'recent contract' you allude to - ie, a company not being able to crew from within its' own staff, was actually a low level survey that required several hundred hours minimum low level, plus 1500TT. As you'd appreciate, it's easy to do a low level training course, even an ag2 if you have the $$$ - but it's another thing to get that 1st gig in order to gain the experience you need for some of these contract jobs. Like it or not - for contract work - the customer is always right!
happy days,

[grrowler]

Well, it's their train set so I guess they can ask what they want, and if they keep finding applicants then the requirements will stay where they are. If it was my aircraft I would generally prefer a 3000 hr pilot over a 300 hr one. Also, a 300 hr pilot is most likely going to head off to greener? pastures, wheras a 3000 hr one has potentially missed out on the majors (probably not because they are a bad operator either), or wants to stay in GA - more stable workforce. Even if they do leave for the airlines, I would have had to spend less resources on the more experienced pilot - it is a business after all.

Also, you seem to suggest all these bare minimum airline jobs are simply there for the taking, when and where you choose. People getting into airlines with bare requirements is the rare exception at the moment.
Let me ask- While waiting for an interview and then hopefully a start with Jetstar or Tiger would you:
a) Stay in your current bottom rung GA job if you have one, praying for that phone call, knowing you have no long term future there.
b) Sit around on the dole or get a non flying job, all the while becoming less employable or
c) Apply for a job with one of the operators you apparently wouldn't go anywhere near, where at least if things don't turn out as hoped, you have a decent flying job.

[morno]

pilotchute,
With nearly 5,000hrs, over 1,000 night and nearly 3,000 multi, plus being employed by a respectable organisation for the last 6 years operating turbines, I'm still waiting for even an interview with any airline. So while it's not impossible, your claim that people can get into airlines with bare minimums, doesn't hold much credibility at the moment. I'm definitely not the only one either!

People can specify what they want, and can guarantee you they'll just about always get at least someone with those hours.

Having trouble getting a twin job and no call up from an airline?

morno