Buy it?

[nikki]

Looking for advice please.

I’m starting to look for a used helicopter to buy. I’ve never purchased a helicopter before. I plan to use it primarily for personal use. I’m looking at the 500E as my first choice and would like to find something in the early to late 90’s.

My questions are:
What are the “how to ‘s” in buying a helicopter?
What are some of the things to watch out for?
Any particular years to avoid?
What are some of the things that must be checked, and or looked for so as not to get a maintenance headache?
Are there any options I should look for, For example, and aux fuel tank?
I plan to do the obvious, have it checked out by a reputable service center and check logbooks.
What else?

Thanks in advance for your opinions!

[Flight Safety]

I'll try to help with this...

Many of the decisions you make regarding the purchase of a helo will be financial, and many will be technical.

Try this website...

Conklin and de Decker (http://www.conklindd.com/cgi-bin/softcart.exe/store/shophome.html?E+scstore)

I'm not saying these guys know everything, but they are a good place to look for "comparative" information on aquisition costs, and operating costs. Evaulate how you're going to pay for the helo, either with cash, leasing, or financing. Weigh the options, and consider ALL the terms of a contract VERY carfully.

These guys also strongly emphasize "purpose" when purchasing an aircraft, meaing what exactly are you going to use it for. This means checking out the performance specs of the helo, and its ability to operate in your area, and for the purposes you intend,(HOGE, HIGE, temps, range, VFR only, IFR capable, payload, etc.)

Decide where to hanger the aircraft, then check those terms and costs. Check the insurance costs on the various helos you are considering, because they vary. Check out both the quality and availability of the maintenance your aircraft will need, in the area where you'll be operating it. Talk with the reps at the service organization(s) you think you'll be using.

Check for quality and costs of conversion training. Talk to others who have operated the aircraft you're considering. They can shed light on any operational or flight issues with the helo.

Check the safety record for the helo. Particularly look for accidents that show "recurring" problems, as this may highlight certain weaknesses in the aircraft. Also look at the survivability rates vs fatal rates. Look at the overall accident and fatal rates per 100,000 flight hours and compare to other helos. Look at ease of flying for the pilot, especially if you're a low time pilot (insurance rates will be affected by this).

Check the airworthiness directives issued for the aircraft, and see if the aircraft you're looking at has all of the ADs addressed. If you find a specific aircraft you're insterested in, make sure the appropriate maintenance records are available, especially for the limited life parts.

That's all I can think of for the moment...

(edited for clarity)

[paco]

Dunno if this will help (I wrote this a million years ago):

"Imagine you have the choice of two aircraft—one relatively expensive to buy, but cheap to operate and the other cheap to buy, but expensive to run. Both do the job you want—well, near enough, anyway. The difference in purchase price between the two may well, if placed on deposit somewhere, more than pay for the increased running costs if you buy the cheaper one. However, in the UK, which is not an aviation-minded country in general, this may be low on the list of priorities, as often the purchasing of an aircraft will tend to be a personal decision on behalf of the Chairman.

So, when evaluating an aircraft, first establish what you want it to do—in many cases, a simpler, cheaper aircraft will suit. For example, if you want a helicopter for corporate transport, use a 206B-III, but for training or pleasure flying, a 206A would not only be cheaper, but more efficient, as its C18 engine is not cycle-limited.

What's the maximum range, and where is the nearest airfield to the factory? Do you want an aeroplane, or would a helicopter be better, where you might spend longer in the air, but have a shorter time between offices and not need ground transport from airfields? How many passengers will you normally carry, and will they want to hold meetings in the back? The bigger and faster it is, the more money it will cost.

However, having the most cost-effective aircraft ever won't help if you can't afford even that. Your budget may stop you dead and restrict you further—you have to run it as well.

If you get professional help, it will cost you money, so what you need to do is aim your money at the best target. The proportion of the cost to the actual purchase price will be larger with smaller aircraft because there's just as much work involved in selling them as there is with larger ones, and the total price is substantially less.

A broker will be selling somebody else's plane on their behalf, essentially taking money for the introduction and the paperwork, so you will probably never meet the seller. A dealer, on the other hand, will have bought the aircraft into stock and will be the owner. There is also the private advertiser, who is just selling his own ship, or maybe a bank or financial institution who are repossession agents.

Once you let it be known that you're after an aircraft of any description, you will get every man and his dog ringing you up with what they have to offer. On the one hand, this could save you a lot of work, but it could also be a pain in the neck, so here's another tip; get the registration number of what they're trying to sell—it could be the same machine several times over. If they won't give it to you, then treat them with the appropriate suspicion. They will have registered with the seller and try and get a cut of the deal as an "introduction fee".

Like with a car, look beneath the shiny paint. There's nothing wrong with sprucing something up for sale, it's common practice, but make a thorough examination anyway. Do not do what one buyer of my acquaintance did—looked at a helicopter and took it away to lunch, leaving the engineer that he'd taken along (at great expense) alone to look at the books which were written in German! Yes, he bought the wrong aircraft; and deserved it! It looked nice, though.

The problem now is finding a trustworthy dealer, but could you do your own purchasing? You've already done most of the work by establishing the tasks you need to perform and what you can afford. Yet another tip is, don't believe brochures or salesmen. Take time to talk to pilots and engineers who actually work with the type of machine you're after—you may find that what you're looking at is OK until the turbocharger goes, which then takes at least three days to repair because it's hidden behind the engine which has to come out completely. On the other hand, another ship could have similar work done in less than half a day and doesn't go wrong in the first place because the turbocharger is not in such a stupid place. Similarly, a particular helicopter could be cheaper to run on paper, but its shorter range on full tanks means that you're paying out for landing fees and dead flying more often, thereby bringing the total operating cost nearly equal to something more comfortable with more endurance.

You need to take account of the data for propeller, rotor or engine Times Between Overhaul (TBO), the Mean Times Between Failures (MTBF) on avionics equipment, amongst other things. Certainly, buy from a company that can provide support, particularly an engineering-based one, and have an independent survey by a competent engineer.

Aircraft Valuation
Actually, when it was built is largely irrelevant; what counts is the time remaining on its components, since they must all be inspected and replaced at specified times. Equally important is documentation supporting it—it can take longer to verify paperwork than physically survey the aircraft. In this respect, be especially careful when buying from the USA. There are many apparently "cheap" aircraft available, mostly confiscated from smugglers or drug dealers—with no acceptable documentation, their only value is scrap. Also, the regulations for privately owned or agricultural aircraft are less stringent than in Europe, and you may need expensive engineering and/or major components replaced before they will get a C of A. So:

There is no such thing as a cheap aircraft.
Especially, there is no such thing as a cheap helicopter.

Which applies to maintenance as well; if you save money one year, expect to spend it the next. Remember that as well as shipping charges, you may have local taxes and costs of dismantling, packing and erecting when you get it to wherever you are. Shipping is normally All Charges Forward and you will cover insurance.



The Hughes would be nice, but check its endurance. If you can afford a fuel bowser up front (a few grand), it could pay for itself in three months in terms of dead flying for fuel.

Phil

[md 600 driver]

paco
phil
understand about fuel on 500s my 600 is the same
but i cant work out ::dead flying for fuel::
regards steve

[The Nr Fairy]

"Dead flying for fuel" I understand to mean flying out of your way to somewhere which has fuel, because you've got no refuelling facilities of your own.

Up front cost of fuel & bowser soon repaid by not spending squillions on flying places you don't want to go.

[nikki]

Thanks for your posts. They've been helpful!

I've used most of the same items on your puch list in order to narrow it down to my best fit choice.
Safety record, crash worthy, storage, fun to fly, etc..

I've narrowed it down to the 500E and mainly chose the E for it being the newer for the 500's.

Are there any 500 drivers out there that would like to share your thoughts, good bad and ugly about the bird your flying?

Thanks again!!!!

[flygunz]

The 500E is a good choice and you could do a lot worse than start there. The posts above are very good and worth reading carefully. I take it your'e from the 'Jawjuh' in the US, if so, you should pick up a 500E quite easily. I used to live next door and remember that there are always a lot for sale, just beware the ringers!

Lets see if theres anyone out there who can give a reason for the PIC flying from the left seat?

[paco]

Yup! The Nr Fairy got it right! The only comment I have about 500s is unverified, but people who have flown the Notar version in Calgary tell me it's a lot less positive in tail rotor control. Still works, though.


Phil

[nikki]

Flygunz,

yes i'm in the us. I do see a few of them for sale.

I don't understand the "beware of ringers" ??

Paco,
i'm staying away from the notar. I'm not a fan of the mushy pedals either. Some people really notar system though. It's all personal taste.

:D

[paco]

I guess ringers means stolen/confiscated stuff - just make sure the paperwork is sound and the history is traceable. ring uo the previous owners, etc

Phil

[flygunz]

Yeah sorry, British term for serial numbers etc not matching records etc. The older the aircraft the easier it is to lose or modify records to inflate value, especially engine time, so just be careful. If you get one through a reputable broker or have an independent survey you'll be fine. If you need an instructor for the conversion give me a bell?:)

[Hughes500]

Good choice

Look out for the AD on main rotor blades ( 25 hr) and lead lag links every 15 hours. Not all machines will be applicable.

Fuel range about 2 hours for C20B, 1hr 45 mins C20R

Do not get one with a C20R ( the R2 is ok ) lots of problems if you speak to an engine shop.

You can buy Fargo tank 17 Gals or Chadwick 50 gals to extend the range, however you sacrafice baggage area with Chadwick.

Low skids = quicker machine 5 kts

High skids = more saleable and land on very rough terrain

Particle seperator a must

If you can find a good D model they are lighter and quicker than E model ( mine gets 135 kts full fuel 2 up pulling 75 psi, 6 psi below max continuious )

Check they have not had the guts pulled out of them as they are a popular load lifter.

Don't bother with 4 bladed tail rotor not much quiter and a lot of extra money, unless it comes free !!!!!!!

Good luck, any other questions drop me an e mail:)

[Vfrpilotpb]

Nikki,

If you do buy something really special, and you decide to invest in your own bowser, whatever else you may do, please ensure that the bowser is stainless or glass lined, and fully INSULATED, without the full insulation your bowser will make its own moisture every day, and eventually some of the H20 will get where it shouldn't, if you need any help E me!!
My Regards
PeterB