Do we want Class A below 10,000ft?

[phiggsbroadband]

Hi, I have often wondered why all of the class A airspace below 10,000ft could not be replaced by class D, it would still be controlled airspace, but allow vfr pilots to avoid clouds and mountains.

In this part of Wales there is quite often the scenario of mountains to 2800ft, clouds from 3000 to 6500ft and Class A above that. Nobody would want to squeeze between the hill tops and cloud base.

If we were able to cross the class A, as class D, this would make navigation that much safer. The same situation exists along the Pennines and in Scotland, where it is preferable to be 'VFR on Top'.

Maybe the Europeans will regard this as an erroding of our Civil Liberties and make the necessary changes, but don't hold your breath!

[what next]

...the Europeans ...

I think, "the Europeans" don't care too much as in many parts of Europe (including the part where I am now) does not have anything like class A airspace at all!

[Fuji Abound]

There are large swathes of class A airspace in the UK that are unnecessary. There has been some discussion in the past that this could change with continued European harmonisation.

On other hand the London TMA is particularly busy and doubtless it couldn't accommodate pop up traffic were the "area" re-classified. The difference of course in this country is that for all practical purposes there is no such thing as pop up traffic in class A, whereas nearly all light traffic transiting class D is pop up, whether VFR or IFR. It has always been claimed the management of flow control in as busy a TMA as ours would not be possible with pop up traffic.

In contrast in the States pop up traffic is common place and is managed.

[dagowly]

B isn't used in the UK.

A & D airspace have very different deeming rules as well as service control. I still think it should all be class G and a free-for-all ;) (joke btw)

[phiggsbroadband]

Hi, I believe there is a 'Class A Crossing Service' available for crossing airways at 90 degrees, but I have never tried to use that service.
I wonder how you would do that, as the frequency for the airway controller will be different to the local radar unit.
Also it mentions that you should cross at the base of the airway, whatever that means for an unlimited height airway.

[Fuji Abound]

You ask the controller you are working. For example crossing the airway going to or back from the west country you might be working Exeter. If you ask them they will "negotiate" the clearance for you. If there is no one obvious to ask, or you aren't receiving a service London or Scottish info can be tasked with arranging the clearance. Obviously give them as much notice as you can. X requests transit of y, FLZ, estimated crossing time P.

Surprisingly some of these airways actually have CAT close to the base on departures or arrivals so they aren't entirely the deserted tracks of airspace we might imagine.

[dublinpilot]

Also it mentions that you should cross at the base of the airway, whatever that means for an unlimited height airway.

I often wondered about that.

Presumably it means what it says. If an airway goes from FL065 to FL195 then you can only cross it at FL065.

But then why bother asking for the clearance? Just drop down to FL064 and climb back to FL065 when you're clear. It seems like a service that nobody would need to use.

[Fuji Abound]

dp

In reality you will often get higher clearances especially if you are already there.

Why might you want a clearance? Well, I have been coming up from Newquay or back for Waterford non airways but VMC above. Often it makes sense to stay in the clear air on top, especially if it means switching on the anti ice, or to avoid being bumped around, even if it is only for a short time.

If you are not instrument rated you definitely don't want to be descending into the cloud for the crossing but to be fair if that were the case ideally maybe you shouldn't have been there in the first place.

[dublinpilot]

Fuji,

I've no doubt that higher clearances would be useful. I had to adjust my route a bit last year as I headed down through Wales enroute to France. FL100 put me just on top but there was an airway in the way which from memory went down to FL085. I couldn't desend as I'd be desending into the cloud.

So my only option was to reroute a bit. It wasn't a big inconvenience, and if I really needed to go down, I could have got out over the sea which was CAVU.

But the concession seems to suggest that the crossing has to be at the base. Interesting that you say it can be higher up, though presumably not for someone with an IR as it's class A and so SVFR available in the airways.

dp

[Contacttower]

But the concession seems to suggest that the crossing has to be at the base. Interesting that you say it can be higher up, though presumably not for someone with an IR as it's class A and so SVFR available in the airways.

In my pre-IR days I was actually given a SVFR clearance in an airway but I think that was probably in error because as far as I know it should not normally be allowed. Possibly a bit of a grey area because more recently I have on two separate occasions been given airways crossings above the base without actually asking for them or the controller questioning my credentials...once crossing the airway that goes North/South near Exeter and the other near Cardiff.

[Fuji Abound]

Some airways are class D for example IOM.

While you need an IR to cross the airway (except at the base where the airway is defined as a FL) it is not the controllers job to police qualifications. It is no different from entering IMC without an IR. So the controller will not ask; he assumes you are qualified. In theory if offered you would say unable to comply, or if not offered would not have asked in the first place. If the choice was between crossing or descending into IMC then I would declare a Pan and you would get the crossing I am sure.

You will in reality get the crossing at whatever level you request assuming there is no conflict - after all if you think about it, it really doesnt matter to the controller as the time you take to cross will be no different.

In reality if you clearly know what you are doing and behave yourself I cant imagine anyone is bothered if you cross at right angles for the few minutes you will be inside CAS but then that is only my opinion. ;)

[Marchettiman]

The most ridiculous lump of Class A airspace in the UK(by area and volume) is the Channel Islands CTZ/TMA. Much of the CAT entering and leaving it is from Southampton where Class D protection seems sufficient, so why stick with this over-regulated bit of small island protectionism. I thought there was a move towards re-planning it, does anyone have news on progress there?

[Cathar]

The most ridiculous lump of Class A airspace in the UK(by area and volume) is the Channel Islands CTZ/TMA.

The Channel Islands are not in/part of the United Kingdom!

[Marchettiman]

They soon would be if there was another World War. Anyway they still have a massive block of Class A airspace, promulgated courtesy of the UK AIP, is there any plausible reason for that?

[Level Attitude]

Actually Yes

I believe one of the main reasons EASA did not want an IMC Rating (or equivalent) was that it
would allow "poorly trained(sic)" IFR pilots in to the European Airways (which are mainly Class D).

If the UK goes the same way then maybe CAA would also think like that?

Laws of unintended consequences..............

[chevvron]

I heard a rumour it was EASA policy that any class A CTRs had to be re-designated to class B, C or D by Dec 2014.

[soaringhigh650]

There is no justification for it, except in specific environments where the complexity and intensity of the controlling task requires an IFR-only environment.

For other areas (e.g. an airway), it is a lazy-man's approach to not caring about VFR traffic. Hence why the UK has a history of many airspace violations. The en-route controllers ain't bothered to talk to VFR traffic.

IFR traffic within it also suffers too. The rigid route system increase fuel burn and they can't fly directly without leaving Class A.

If there is any less traffic or workload, Class A must be returned to other airspace classes that permit VFR flight.

[zkdli]

saoringhigh650 said:
For other areas (e.g. an airway), it is a lazy-man's approach to not caring about VFR traffic. Hence why the UK has a history of many airspace violations. The en-route controllers ain't bothered to talk to VFR traffic.

just to correct one statement - Violations are most common in the class "D" CTRs and CTAs of the southeast airfields not class A airways.

The most common airspace to be infringed is the Stansted CTR/CTA

Regarding flying direct outside of Class "A" most airlines don't want to do that because the increased risk associated with an unknown traffic environment tends to outweigh the fuel cost.

[maehhh]

Regarding flying direct outside of Class "A" most airlines don't want to do that because the increased risk associated with an unknown traffic environment tends to outweigh the fuel cost.

In lots of European countries there is no class A at all... Germany for example!

[mmgreve]

In lots of European countries there is no class A at all... Germany for example!

While neighboring Netherlands has declared half the B***** country Class A.

[peterh337]

When was this?

[mmgreve]

Not sure when they did this - before I started flying.

Try finding a route through the Netherlands at an altitude where you can reasonably expect to be VFR-above, and you'll find yourself tracking the border on the Belgian/German side.

Honestly, Dutch Class A it's the key reason for me to consider an IR