Midair collision near Giessen, Germany

[Steve6443]

A sad day for German General Aviation after 2 light aircraft collided in the vicinity of Giessen - 8 dead including 4 children News unfortunately currently only in German (http://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/inhalt.woelfersheim-giessen-sieben-tote-bei-flugzeug-kollision.9395006b-08a8-47fd-ae47-4834a263cf6f.html). My thoughts and condolences to the family and friends of the victims.....

Latest information says that the planes involved were a Robin DR400-180 and a Piper Saratoga. The Piper was en route from Stadtlohn to Aschaffenburg, the Robin flew from Koblenz heading towards Reichelsheim; indeed I believe I saw the family in the Robin preparing their flight just as I was leaving Koblenz yesterday afternoon.

[ATC Watcher]

Hessen: Tote bei Flugzeugabsturz - SPIEGEL ONLINE (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/hessen-tote-bei-flugzeugabsturz-a-871785.html)
Just heard this, at least 8 dead , rumours one of pilots was an airline Captain .
Anyone has more infos ?

[His dudeness]

According to this:

Acht Tote bei Flugzeugkollision: Lufthansa-Pilot in Unglücksmaschine | Nachrichten | hr-online.de (http://www.hr-online.de/website/rubriken/nachrichten/indexhessen34938.jsp?rubrik=36090&key=standard_document_46913083)

One of the dead was a DLH pilot. The article says that the airline has already confirmed it. It also says that they don´t know if he was flying the airplane.

[DX Wombat]

Two families, one aircraft with one child on board and the other with three children. Unbelievably sad for the relatives and friends.

[DIBO]

Makes you wonder when PCAS at such a low cost, or Transponders with built-in PCAS (if that would exist?) will become compulsory for GA.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Rue the day transponders ever become mandatory for GA.

[Steve6443]

The Planes involved were a Robin DR400 en route from Koblenz to Reichelsheim, here a Lufthansa pilot was on board (unconfirmed as to whether he was flying, 2 adults, one child on board), the second plane was a Piper Saratoga en route from Stadtlohn to Aschaffenburg, 2 adults, 3 children on board).

Although the visibility was good at the time, I was flying yesterday between Koblenz and the Ruhr Valley and noted a very low inversion, above it visibility was excellent, below it around 5km or less. Also, at the time of the incident the sun would have been extremely low; additionally, the Robin was apparently already talking with Reichelsheim Info in preparation to land so assuming the Piper pilot was talking with Langen Information, he would have been the only pilot to have received traffic info and if the Robin was approaching from the west, he would have been extremely difficult to see.....

Does sort of make the case for PCAS.....

[Steve6443]

Rue the day transponders ever become mandatory for GA.

A b: why do you say this? PCAS will only work if the traffic is squawking. Anything which makes GA safer has got to be good news, right?

[DIBO]

Rue the day transponders ever become mandatory for GA
Sorry, don't agree.
Have been in a reaaaal close call near-miss thirty years ago, and it seems as if it happened yesterday (no nightmare's however :)).
Transponder + PCAS (incl. Flarm) is the way to go for me.

[FlyingStone]

PCAS will only work if the traffic is squawking.

Exactly, but many people think PCAS is just as good as TCAS in transport aircraft. PCAS only displays traffic, which get interrogations from SSR/TCAS, but it won't work in the middle of Sahara or when flying low-level in moderately high terrai, since there are no SSR interrogations.

One of the problems is airspace structure, since most of airspace in Europe is controlled above 1000ft AGL / 3000ft MSL and many (if not most) controllers don't like to see "crazy VFR traffic" in their airspace, so the only option for non-IR rated pilots (or aircraft not IFR equipped) is to fly below inversion level and it's nearly impossible to spot any traffic when flying in mist with sun at 12 o'clock.

[ATC Watcher]

I was fearing that . very sad day (again)

From article ,apparently both a/ not with Langen Info (FIS) , really a must if you fly in the area and know the area. Yesterday was the only VFR flyable day in a long time,(still is if one looks at today !) so lots of VFR in area.
Transponder: both a/c were equipped, surely, on ? most probably but not mandatory in that airspace .

PCAS : I have bought one for my aircraft ( Powerflarm) great stuff but no guarantee, gives you a vague warning ,and only on those SSR or FLARM equipped. And even with a warning you still have to look outside to avoid, but if flying yesterday westbound at 16:15, front vis against the sun was poor.
Condolences to everyone.

[Steve6443]

One of the problems is airspace structure, since most of airspace in Europe is controlled above 1000ft AGL / 3000ft MSL and many (if not most) controllers don't like to see "crazy VFR traffic" in their airspace, so the only option for non-IR rated pilots (or aircraft not IFR equipped) is to fly below inversion level and it's nearly impossible to spot any traffic when flying in mist with sun at 12 o'clock.

Sorry, I'm having some difficulty understanding you - why should pilots feel the need to fly in Golf Airspace? I've flown across Germany, Austria, Hungary, Slovakia and, with weather like yesterday, airspace was not an issue - I usually stick in Echo which, if we remember, is controlled airspace but there is NO requirement to be listening to the FIS for VFR or to get a clearance (clearance only required for IFR); in Germany, Echo goes from between 1000, 1700 or 2500AGL up to FL100 so I could quite happily bimble around FL 55 - 95 without any problems, unless other airspaces get in the way. The only requirements are flight visibility 8km or more, separation of 1500m horizontal and 1000 feet vertical from clouds. From my part though, I will always contact the controllers who have always been more than willing to provide traffic service even though yesterday was fairly hectic - the poor controller certainly earned her pay - so I can't really agree when you say that the controllers don't want "crazy vfr" traffic in their airspace.

Concerning the inversion, I also don't see an issue flying above it where the visibility is excellent, irrespective of whether the plane is IFR equipped, pilot IR rated or otherwise, then ducking below the inversion when nearing the destination - or how does anyone else see this? In such circumstances I'll keep listening to the FIS as long as possible in case of traffic advisories, tune COM2 to the airfield frequency and listen in from about 10 minutes out just to judge how many planes are in the circuit and their positions / intentions and then drop down into the circuit as late as possible.....

[172driver]

Steve, exactly my experience. I've crossed Europe a number of times VFR, usually flying between 7-10k, talking to whoever provides a FIS (Langen in the case of a big part of Germany). Never had an issue.

In fact, I personally try to avoid the 2000-3000 ft range, especially on a nice weekend, as that's where all the bimblers live.

[ATC Watcher]

Steve, I know teh area quite well too.
Back to the collision : if the press info given so far is correct , the PA32 was EDLS to EDFC , so tracking 120-130 about , and the DR400 was EDRK-EDFB, so tracking about 090 . the good old converging , not moving target, add the (very low) sunshine . the PA32, about 50 Kts faster than the DR 400, here you go.
Pure speculation of course.
Class E and G in this area around FRA TMA maybe fine , but seen the traffic patterns around it , include the business jets cancelling IFR to pursue VFR at 250 Kts ,and in the volume of traffic in the WE especially , not contacting Langen INFO for as transit is crazy. (but not mandatory, we agree )