Spin Recovery Training

[MacSki]

I'm a relatively low hours PPL and found during my training the stall exercises difficult from a fear aspect. I did the recoveries required fine in my test but I still get very concerned when I'm flying with an experienced pilot/instructor who tells me they are going to show me how the aircraft reacts when it stalls. Since getting my PPL I've chatted with a few pilots of varying experience who all recommended doing some spin recovery training to try and overcome my fears/concerns and think I would benefit from this advanced training.

I've just got a couple of weeks clear in my schedule and was about to contact Ultimate High when I noticed on their website they are now based at Goodwood, presumably having moved from Kemble where I thought they were based. Goodwood is too far for me to travel from Oxfordshire so any recommendations as to where else I could go for this training or indeed suggestions of how to overcome my concern of stalling?

Thank you....

[sharpend]

Yes, bit of a shame that Ultimate High relocated to Goodwood. I'm sure there are many schools that teach aeros, and thus spinning. But do ensure you have a parachute. I teach in the Bulldog, but we don't have parachutes.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

And you NEED Parachutes because....?..

Griffo...DHC-1 Pilot.....

:}

[maxred]

Firstly, there is not a lot to be scared about. By understanding more how an aeroplane arrives at the stall, what it does when in stall, and how it gets from stall to spin, and from that understanding the recovery procedures, in all aspects of the above, then this will go some way to alleviating concerns and/or apprehensions you may have.

You must also remember that most aeroplane types will behave differently, ie differing charecteristics, but the basic physics are generally the same. Ultimate High would be good experience, but you should bear in mind that your brief is to alleviate fears, understand what happens in the types you fly, and gain confidence. Give them a call first, and discuss your goal.

Ask around your flying base, and see if you can get an aeros guy to take you up. Again I would suggest that you clearly state that you wish experience and recovery of such activity. The last thing you need is some hot shot terrifying the living daylights out of you.

I think it extremely good that you seek additional stall/spin awareness and enjoy every minute of it when you get that first flight.:ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Yep!,

That sounds good. May I suggest that you find a Tiger Moth school, and try that first, as it is a 'comfortable' slower spin,....and a straight forward recovery!

Then go for ride in a DHC-1 Chippy, and experience the faster rate of turn in the spin...and the recovery....and you will never 'fear' another aeroplane again....ever.

A Most Enjoyable experience....and,...YOU have control!

Griffo, Chippy driver.

:ok:

[Arclite01]

Do some in a glider first to understand the aerodynamics aspects. It's much clearer then..............

Demonstrations should include>:

>Approach to the stall
>Symptoms & Signs
>The stall itself - not all stalls have a huge pitch down of the nose - you can be stalled and mushing along quite easily...........
>The recovery
>The spin - different entry types/techniques
>The recovery
>Differences between spins and spiral dives

Then do some yourself........... under supervision

Eventually you might just enjoy it. A good instructor makes all the difference..............

I never used to, I still don't but I'm not scared of them...............

Arc

[18greens]

If you want to fly at Kemble skysport have bulldogs for training.

[gemma10]

A few years ago I went for a practice flight with an airline captain to do some stalls in our AA5 Traveller. Up at 4000 ft, power off and column slowly brought fully back so it was in my groin. The aircraft never dropped a wing, just buffetted violently. I dont have the POH to hand but seem to remember it stating No Spins.
Well if I couldn`t get it passed the incipient stage, would the only way of spinning it have been to drop a wing manually? Dont remember the captains answer. :confused:

[darkroomsource]

19 years.
That's how long I suffered from the OP mentioned fear.
Every time I did a check ride or BFR (I know that's not what it's called any more), CPL check, etc. I would get better and better at "recovering" from the stall before it actually stalled...
The week before I did my PPL check ride, I was practising, and I inadvertently stalled the C152 into a spin. I don't think it spun more than 1 revolution, but at the time I 'knew' it went round and round at least 6 times and I was completely upside down. I passed my PPL and then over the next 20 years did everything I could to avoid stalls.
One day I told an instructor about my fear, and he said "Let's go flying". (He is an ex-military pilot, so I felt safe with him if we were going to do stalls)
So we got the weight right in the C172 such that with the two of us it was in the utility category, and we went out and did stalls, lots of stalls. Within 15 minutes I was in love with stalls and partial spins. No more fear of stalls.

[blind pew]

Spinning in "most" civil aircraft is nothing to worry about although I once nearly didn't get a Condor out as an idiot had adjusted up the brake on one side and restricted rudder movement.
I was told that you couldn't spin a cherokee by an examiner. - proved him wrong as one of the ATA pilots - joan Hughes - had shown me how to do it.
Around 10 knots above the stall apply simultaneous full rudder and back stick and it goes in a treat. Did same on the Condor and executed half a flick roll and found myself upside down!
Always demonstrated a three turn spin and then let the victim do same - otherwise they are so frightened they can't appreciate what is happening and don't loose their fear.
Would agree that trying it in a glider is a great experience.
But check the weight and balance before hand as lost a friend due to an aft C of G when he accidently spun.

[phiggsbroadband]

Sharpend, you mentioned parachutes... They are always worn in gliders, and gliders are one of the best machines to learn to spin.

Another aspect of wearing a 3 inch Parachute is that it is a more comfortable back-rest, and moves you forward in the seat, to give a more forward CofG. If a lightweight glider pilot is flying, it is usual to add 5Kg or so of Lead Balast to the nose of the glider, to increase stability.

The other aspect of the Parachute is that if you really c**k it up, and break a wing off, you can always float down to earth, minus the aircraft.

[sharpend]

Skysport UK have no Bulldogs with parachutes. The Bulldog is very benign in a spin, but a few of my chums have had to take to the silk when they failed to recover from the spin. Possibly this was due to incorrect recovery drill, but I still would not deliberately spin without a chute.

Yes, a back pack chute is a good idea, for many reasons (unless you have an aeroplane with a ballistic chute). Personally, as I suffer from short legs, a packpack chute helps. Nothing is worse in a spin than not selecting full opposite rudder.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The spin is an aerobatic manoever. Personally I think "spin" training per se is a waste of time. If you really want to move to the next level of flying skill then you should IMO take an introductory aerobatics course. True comfort in the air comes when you realize it doesn't matter if the airplane is upside down or pointed straight up it is still perfectly controllable.

I also think that instructors who have not had aerobatic training should not be allowed to conduct spins. There is just to much that can go wrong in a botched spin entry/recovery and somebody with no aerobatic training will not necessarily recognize a bad situation developing or know what to do........

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

A few years ago I went for a practice flight with an airline captain to do some stalls in our AA5 Traveller. Up at 4000 ft, power off and column slowly brought fully back so it was in my groin. The aircraft never dropped a wing, just buffetted violently. I dont have the POH to hand but seem to remember it stating No Spins.
Well if I couldn`t get it passed the incipient stage, would the only way of spinning it have been to drop a wing manually? Dont remember the captains answer.

Airline captains, unless they are also in current GA practice, don't use rudder. I took my ex-BA 747 captain mate flying in the Chippy. As (him flying) we crawled out over the Mersey estary climbling at not a lot out of Scouseport he opined over the intercom "crikey these things don't go up well, do they?" I replied "they do if you use rudder, Malc".

I pressed a bootful of left rudder and up we went!

[Nimrod615]

Big Pistons Forever

Repost your comment in the flying instructors/examiners forum.

I look forward to seeing the replies.

[gileraguy]

Mushing along in a 152 Aerobat trying to get it to stall, the instructor suddenly gives a boot full of rudder and over we go.

Spinning down, I look at him, he looks at me and since I've only done about five hours to this time, I wait for him to sort it out.

No briefing, no warning and I think I said "ooh!" as we went into the spin.

I am not rated for Aerobatic flight.

[A and C]

You can learn tha basics of spin recovery in a Cessna 152 ( providing it has had the rudder AD done).

All my students get the chance to learn spin recovery on the PPL course, I simply could not let anyone fly an aircraft without knowing they could recover from a spin situation.

However I would never go spinning with a student without a full briefing, doing this by surprise is just stupid........... But I have had students demonstrate spin entry to me by surprise !

[RatherBeFlying]

I've done lots of spins, mostly in gliders. Gliders, especially Blanik L-13s, do have the tendency to convert a spin into a spiral dive.

Glider clubs seem to cling to requiring fully developed spins in the annual checkout. While I can agree that you do want a student to be familiar with recovery from a full spin, it's the incipient spin turning base at 300' or lower that kills glider pilots.

At low level, the pilot really needs to recognise an incipient spin and promptly recover as waiting for a developed spin before initiating recovery will be fatal.

But the check flight culture in many clubs requires pilots to take a glider into a fully developed spin and sit out a turn or two in complete violation of basic survival instincts before initiating recovery. From a 4000' tow there's room for at most two fully developed spins. Then there's no altitude remaining to check recognition and prompt recovery from incipient spins -- and the check flight is over for another year.

That altitude could be better used nibbling at the stall and demonstrating several prompt recoveries when the wing drops.

Of course in aerobatic training, you do need to explore the many different ways spins can develop and how to recover from them. But for flying cross country, proficiency in spins at an aerobatic level is not necessary.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Big Pistons Forever

Repost your comment in the flying instructors/examiners forum.

I look forward to seeing the replies.


What part of my post do you disagree with ?

[phiggsbroadband]

Hi, McSki was originaly worried about the Stalling Practice which is required for the PPL training, and a lot has been said about Spin Recovery or recovery from the incipient stage.

You could go one step further and try some total 'Spin Avoidance' technique. We all know that as the speed decreases the use of the rudder becomes more important; If you can absolutely nail the nose of the aircraft onto some landmark on the horizon, by the use of the rudder, you will find it impossible for the plane to enter a spin from a stall, and even the stall can be just a rapid mush.
In a glider, if you are watching the base of the Yaw String on the canopy, if it moves sideways by just one inch, you can be sure the wing-tip has moved backwards by one foot. which means that the tip could be below the stalling speed... i.e. a spin in the making.

All training aircraft are different, and the Piper Tomahawk is probably the easiest to enter a spin, and the high wing Cessna types are more benign. If McSki lives anywhere near a Gliding Club, he should see if they can give him a few trial flights, with spin included. (If you are in the Midlands, then the Long Myndd GC is the best option, with a westerly wind onto the ridge.)

[BackPacker]

That altitude could be better used nibbling at the stall and demonstrating several prompt recoveries when the wing drops.

I didn't have time to post earlier, but if I had, I would have posted something along these lines as well.

The OP wrote "...any recommendations as to where else I could go for this training or indeed suggestions of how to overcome my concern of stalling?"

I think it's a bad idea, from the outset, of trying to overcome a concern about stalling. Instead, I think it's best to keep a healthy dose of respect for the stall. Because that's what will keep you alive.

I'm an aerobatics pilot and stall and spin regularly. But I have never overcome, and will not try to overcome, my concern about stalling. I only stall or spin the aircraft as a deliberate act, when the aircraft is within all the Aerobatics Category limitations, and after having done the HASELL checks.

In any other flight regime, stalling is something to be avoided. There is no benefit to be gained from stalling an aircraft, and at low level it may be deadly. And spinning is even worse. So I'm alert to any signs of a stall, and correct promptly.

By all means do an introduction to aerobatics course. Learn what an aircraft is really capable of. It's great fun and will improve your skills to no end, regardless of whether you do it in a powered aircraft or in a glider. But keep in mind that in almost all flight regimes stalling is something to be avoided at all costs. It therefore makes a lot more sense to train incipient stall recognition and avoidance, than stall/spin recovery.

It's OK to lose a mortal fear of stalling and spinning. But do keep a healthy dose of concern.

[MacSki]

Thanks for everyone's comments and thoughts.

Frankly I don't really want to do spin training but I do want to get to the point when the mention of a stall doesnt makes me tense up and in some cases make my arms shake. I think the suggestion of spin training was to give me confidence that there was nothing to fear and instill more of an instinctive response for getting an aircraft out of a stall.

Looks like my options are going to an aero club or glider club. Must admit I have never been in a glider and Bicester club is not too far from me so I may look into that.

I did spend time with my instructor trying to overcome the stalling fear but I think I need a different approach to exercise the demons, not more of the same. I did do a recovery from a spin in my skills test and having been well briefed by the examiner and knowing what's at stake I performed it fine.

I would like to get to the point where when I'm doing a checkout or someone is showing me their aircraft and we do a stall I can genuinely feel how the aircraft is responding rather than internal panic & feeling of fear.

I'm know I'm not unusual and lots of good pilots have had to overcome this so great to have collective wisdom......just don't mention a need for parachutes to me :rolleyes: !

[Pace]

I'm a relatively low hours PPL and found during my training the stall exercises difficult from a fear aspect. I did the recoveries required fine in my test but I still get very concerned when I'm flying with an experienced pilot/instructor who tells me they are going to show me how the aircraft reacts when it stalls. Since getting my PPL I've chatted with a few pilots of varying experience who all recommended doing some spin recovery training to try and overcome my fears/concerns and think I would benefit from this advanced training.

The problem with recovering at incipient are two fold.

On the fear front the biggest fear is a fear of the unknow recovering at incipient leaves a big dollop of unknown and this is where the poster of this thread IMO has a problem.
"What if I do not recover at incipient, mess up on my own or even worse enter a spin"
A good session with an aerobatic instructor in an aerobatic aircraft will allow the student to experience chucking it about and abusing the aircraft so he can see for himself what can happen and get used to it!

When pilots stall unintentionally it will happen at a time when their full concentration is taken elsewhere and hence the incipient bit will be totally lost! The First thing the pilot will know is he is in a full bloodied stall.
Hence while recovery at incipient is VITAL so is experiencing and being comfortable with full stalls and spins.

The last point to make is a identifying a spiral dive and a spin.
So many confuse the two and both require very different recovery methods where does incipient come in that equation?

I see a good comparison in driving a car! The student is taught to drive safely etc etc etc and told if you loose it the car may over steer or understeer but they are never shown or allowed to experience these things.
First time it happens for real the poor sod understeers straight into a brick wall.
On a skid pan they can understeer, oversteer and slide to their hearts content eventually becoming so confident they can play the steering at will to control both.
As an ex racing driver those skills learnt back then have saved me on a number of occasions in ordinary road driving since.

Pace

[MacSki]

Thanks Pace, I like your analogy. I did indeed take icy/snow days steady in a car until I had done some advanced driver training and then felt so much more confidence in handling the situation I just reacted rather than feared and that is exactly where I want to get to with the stall.

I'm sure I will always have a healthy regard for the stall situation but I want to be free to react sensibly as I now do in a car rather than tense and try and control fear/panic and react.

[Armchairflyer]

Erm, what's wrong with taking it steady when driving on slippery roads?

Enjoy a dual spinning lesson, at least you'll make the experience that -- given enough altitude and an approved airplane -- it's actually a quite benign maneuver and nothing to be afraid of (at least that was my impression after having been in awe of the prospect of spinning an airplane myself prior to such a session with an aerobatics instructor).

Nonetheless I think that the actual safety gain is rather modest. A spin at altitude will hardly kill anyone, it's the low-level stall with a wingdrop where you instinctively feel that there is not enough air left beneath you to do what's right and point the nose down. It may be just me but I had a sufficiently hard time to do that when owing to a lack of concentration I let the airplane get into a slight mush on finals. Really had to give myself a mental slap on the hand to push the stick forward a bit and add some power instead of pulling back still further. And that was far from a panic-inducing situation then; not sure whether I would have been able to do the right thing if things had looked grimmer.

IMHO spin training is a good experience and helps you get rid of exaggerated fear. But in "everyday" flying it is indeed spin avoidance that gets you home alive.

[Pace]

Armchairflyer

I do not agree with the argument that stalls spins only happen near the ground so you will never recover! a pointless exercise.

There have been two PC12 crashes from loss of control at high altitude recently with obviously incorrect recovery. These both occurred at 24000 plus :( and involved stalls spins and spiral dives with eventual mid air over stressing and breakups.

There is nothing wrong with driving carefully or incipient training to avoid such situations in car or aircraft!
Sadly reality is different.

Pace

[Sillert,V.I.]

During my early training, I too was apprehensive about spinning & I was definitely uneasy as in those days it was a mandatory requirement. Shortly after starting my PPL course, the rules changed and I was somewhat relieved at not having to do the exercise.

However the bogeyman wouldn't go away and very soon after I got my licence I grabbed an instructor & headed off for a lesson in spin training and recovery. I briefed myself thoroughly beforehand and mentally rehearsed the recovery procedure until I'd convinced myself I'd be able to get it right first time.

I made sure the tomahawk I'd booked out was one of the ones with full harnesses & spent about 10 minutes extra on the walkround removing all the pens, paper & other rubbish from the cockpit. Waiting for the instructor, I rehearsed exactly what I'd do with the controls once the spin started. I felt very confident I'd be able to recover from a spin without help from the other seat.

We climbed up to about 5000ft in the training area and after a couple of clearing turns I realised this was the moment to put it all into practice. Chopping the power, I pulled up into the stall and just as the aircraft stopped flying, gave it a bootful of rudder.

I simply couldn't believe how quickly it entered the spin & in spite of all that preparation, instinctively tried picking up the dropping wing with aileron. The windscreen was suddenly full of rapidly rotating fields & I was pressed hard against the side of the cockpit. A few turns later my instructor took control & recovered the aircraft as I felt my overconfidence rapidly being put in its place by a generous helping of reality.

After climbing back up for a second go, I was better prepared for how the aircraft would react & managed some semblence of controlled recovery, though it didn't seem to be climbing as well as it usually did. It did, however, climb much better once my instructor told me to remove the full opposite rudder!

After another hour of spinning it in both directions, I'd got to the point where I could keep the height loss to 1500ft & felt comfortable with being able to do it for real if I somehow managed to spin it by mistake at altitude.

I've never inadvertently spun anything, but I have had the occasional close encounter and I do believe real experience of spin recovery is an essential part of pilot training. It demonstrates that the onset of loss of control can be violent and disorienting, but prompt and correct recovery action will put the cows back in their proper place. There needs to be some element of muscle memory in this; you're likely not going to be able to work it out calmly and rationally in the heat of the moment.

As Pace said, there's been a spate of fatal accidents involving loss of control at altitude, and it's at least possible that the lack of spin training in the current syllabus might have been a factor.

[maxred]

AF447 a larger case in point..

[BackPacker]

On the other hand a fresh PPL is not very likely to find himself at the helm of an Airbus or PC12, in coffin-corner type situations, anytime soon.

When was the last time your average spamcan had a stall during normal cruise flight?

As far as I know, most unintentional stalls with light aircraft happen during the base to final turn, or on final itself. And in that situation all the spin training in the world will not help anymore. What will save the day is incipient stall recognition and recovery.

[Armchairflyer]

Not sure whether high-altitude LOC scenarios really make a convincing point for (VFR) spin training in light aerobatic aircraft (although they do arguably make a point for correctly diagnosing and recovering from an inflight upset, including the distinction between spin and spiral dive mentioned by Pace). Like BackPacker (if I understand him correctly) I doubt that spinning in from high altitude is a significant risk in a SEP airplane.

And concerning the "sad reality" ;) I firmly believe that whether on the ground or in the air, planning ahead and having good situational awareness go a lot further for stacking the deck in your favor than relying on handling skills when the s... has already hit the fan.

[ShyTorque]

As an civilian (to PPL level) then latterly military trained pilot I often wonder why there is so much concern about full stall/spin practice and recovery training. It certainly never used to be so much a controversial subject when everyone was required to do it as part of the PPL syllabus.

Almost forty years ago, as a 17 year old student, I even briefly experienced an inverted spin in a Cessna 150 during my pre FHT ride (it was inadvertent, the engine did stop and I did work out how to recover from it, and it thankfully came out very quickly). But spinning was a subject of interest, rather than "taboo", which is how it now appears to be with some.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Nimrod615

Still waiting for your reply, or are you one of those sad internet creatures who throw out non specific insults and then run away....

[Pace]

including the distinction between spin and spiral dive mentioned by Pace

This is why I feel stalling, spinning, spiral dives should be packaged as one.
One can lead to the other and back again.
This was apparent from the radar traces of the very tragic high altitude crash of the PC12 flown by a ppl.
The aircraft appeared to stall a number of times as well as spinning and then broke up in a spiral dive.
Backpacker there have been equally a number of loss of control incidents at fairly high altitude in Cirrus aircraft where luckily the chute saved the occupants.
I am not for one minute decrying recovery at incipient as this is the most important factor of all but I am realist enough to know that situations occur where the pilot does not recover from incipient because they are distracted enter a storm or whatever.

As I read it from the original poster of the thread he is scared of stalling as he does not have the confidence in being able to recover if that stall was mishandled and developed further a case of fear of the unknown. The only way to remove that fear is to make the unknown known.

Pace

[Sillert,V.I.]

This is why I feel stalling, spinning, spiral dives should be packaged as one.
One can lead to the other and back again.


Absolutely.

One big difference between training and reality is knowing how the aircraft got into an unusual attitude in the first place. It's easy to recognise you're in a left hand spin if you just put airplane there, but in real life things might not be so obvious.

And since all but one of my close calls have happened whilst hand flying in cloud, IMO training when it's CAVOK isn't enough of a preparation.

[Pace]

Didn't get the first couple right, more spiral dives than spins but we survived and learned.

This is the important bit instictively knowing one from the other and being able to smoothly recover.
The Spiral dive has more potential to damage the aircraft than a spin.
The argument was made that spins were more likely to occur in the circuit at low level and hence if you got into one you would not get out hence no point in teaching them.
Firstly this is false! It maybe true of the student low time ppl who probably does not fly over 2000 feet but not true as pilots become more adventurous.
As stated shown by the increase of loss of control and breakups caused by incorrect recovery techniques.
I personally am not an aerobatic lover but appreciate the instruction I recieved from old school instructors and examiners in piston singles and twins

Pace

[Armchairflyer]

The argument was made that spins were more likely to occur in the circuit at low level and hence if you got into one you would not get out hence no point in teaching them.
Firstly this is false! It maybe true of the student low time ppl who probably does not fly over 2000 feet but not true as pilots become more adventurous.Define "adventurous". Fooling around in a (non-aerobatic) airplane at altitude without proper instruction (and maybe carrying passengers waiting to be impressed or so) is not what you mean, I suppose ;)

[Fuji Abound]

As an civilian (to PPL level) then latterly military trained pilot I often wonder why there is so much concern about full stall/spin practice and recovery training. It certainly never used to be so much a controversial subject when everyone was required to do it as part of the PPL syllabus.

A few accidents much as with single engine training in multis resulted in the authorities concluding the risk reward equation was better served if it was removed from the syllabus.

Probably some instructors were not up to the task or not up to the task in the aircraft made available to them. It is one of those skills that 80% of the time will go to plan, but from an instructional view includes the potential for the student to put the aircraft into a spin in an unusual way. It is also not unknown for the student to freeze on the controls requiring the instructor to take appropriate action, not always so easy in a tandem aircraft.

Personally I understand the fear. The fear stems because you have no real idea what will happen until you spin (for real), and even then it is one of those things for most that is still disconcerting. I think it takes most pilots two or three sessions to feel half comfortable with spinning. The way in which an aircraft spins also varies significantly between aircraft.

I am in two minds whether or not it should be in the PPL syllabus. Part of the reason is I am not sure simply demonstrating a spin achieves a great deal - as I said earlier short of a few lessons I think a couple of demonstrated spins could make some pilots more, not less nervous, and I doubt is enough to significantly improve their chances of recovering should they inadvertently enter a spin a year or two later having done no spinning between times.

However I am in no doubt that it is very worth while having some more comprehensive spin training at some point post PPL.

[groovy_nut]

The best place to contact would be the British Aerobatic Academy, not so far from Oxfordshire (they're based at Little Gransden, Cambs) and specialise in 'lifesaver' training in spins and unusual attitudes, as well as all manner of aerobatics of course! Oh, and the Extra 200 they use for their main training is a lovely aeroplane to fly and not overly expensive!

Parachute not mandatory!

Aerobatic flying training | British Aerobatic Academy (http://www.britishaerobaticacademy.com)

[MacSki]

I think my fear stems from a couple of angles. Firstly it took me a while to settle into flying and not be fearful of every time the aircraft moved in a way I hadn't asked it to, turbulence etc, took me a long time to figure if the instructor wasn't worried why should I be. Stalling came quite early in my training and started with a briefing which was more focused/serious than I'd seen before and a bit frightening about the consequences and link to accidents. It was then about 3 days of me turning up to the airfield but not being able to fly due to weather before we had conditions to do stalling. Being told to take out loose objects from the aircraft added to my fear which had built over those 3 days of not flying and waiting.

Also I have worked in a safety sensitive industry for many years and I think knowing that the aircraft is being put into an "unsafe" position triggers all the reactions that have been taught in me about safety processes etc. and not getting there in the first place. I fully got the fact that for overall safety these exercises had to be done but I still couldn't stop myself reacting badly, shaking legs and arms.

I think we did the exercises on 5 occasions over my training to get me to the point of being comfortable for the test but I'd really like to get to a point where I don't fear it every time it is mentioned as I do think it is creating the wrong reaction in me.

My take on the conversations is that some advance training in general would be useful, whether that is actual spinning or just more stalling, low speed flight etc to be decided. I'm very sure I'm best doing all of this away from my home airfield with a different instructor and will now look to set that up.

Thanks for everyone's help/views, always interesting reading the different opinions/thoughts.

[maxred]

I am glad you have taken something from all the informative posts on the subject. From your post above, it appears that it may not just have been stall/spin that gave you anxiety. Again, there are quite a few guys I have met, who actually do not like flying that much, and get quite anxious when they fly. Personally I can't quite get my head around that mindset, but it does exist. A level of fear/respect/apprehension, is healthy, and in my view required, otherwise you may not live too long.

I also think your move to another airfield to complete more advanced flying is positive and the correct choice. Best of luck and let all on here know how you fare.

[ShyTorque]

Probably some instructors were not up to the task or not up to the task in the aircraft made available to them. It is one of those skills that 80% of the time will go to plan, but from an instructional view includes the potential for the student to put the aircraft into a spin in an unusual way. It is also not unknown for the student to freeze on the controls requiring the instructor to take appropriate action, not always so easy in a tandem aircraft.

I'm aware of the instructional issues, as an ex RAF QFI. We used to be required to demonstrate spinning off manoeuvre; my favourite way into the spin was to do a half loop then pull hard and put full rudder in at the top. Having shown them the recovery once, I always let my student have a go.

MacSki, I'd also suggest that you get some aerobatic tuition. Experience in more extreme attitudes will eventually lead to you having much more confidence in both the aircraft and your own personal abilities and the fear will subside. :ok:

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I'd echo Shy's comments. When I did the PPL in the '70s we did do spinning and wonderful T D used a 'flick entry' to get the Aerobat properly spinning. But it wasn't until I progressed to aeros that I felt fully at home with the AoA the wrong side of critical. Prior to that recovery had been a bit of a technical excercise, done by rote.

The aeroplanes I've flown generally give some clues to the pilot before they depart. Sloppy controls etc. That promts one to 'unload' with a bit of forward stick.

Without aeros currency I wouldn't be surprised if the natural reaction of most pilots to an gently-entered unintentional stall (the nose dropping away) would be to pull back. Even fast-developing departures (the Yak is good at those!) become recognisable as such with an instinctive 'ease forward to unload'.

Training to incipient is a bad as no training. If you've no idea what comes next you have no chance of instinctive recovery. And when what comes next arrives.... :eek::eek::eek:

[RatherBeFlying]

Training to incipient is a bad as no training. If you've no idea what comes next you have no chance of instinctive recovery. I can agree that training only to incipient is not enough.

That said, once recovery from a full spin is down solid, the more vital skill is recognising and recovering from an incipient at low level.

If aerobatics are on the agenda, there are a wider variety of spin situations that need to be taught.

[abgd]

What do you fly?

I found myself getting very anxious when it came to stalls in the Tomahawk, because not only did I not know what would happen, but I knew the aircraft had a poor reputation for coming out of spins. Also, I once hurt myself stalling in a hang-glider and that memory came very much to the fore.

I went for a little spin training in an aerobatics aircraft and it did help considerably, though I would still get anxious if I were to stall a Tomahawk today. I currently fly C152s, and I practice some types of stalls in them alone and at altitude. After the Tomahawk, they feel almost disconcertingly benign - I understand the aircraft can still bite if you push it, which I haven't done as yet.

There's a lot of history and debate behind the decision to take spins out of the PPL syllabus, both in the UK and the states. The numerical evidence seems fairly clear that its removal has saved lives. On the other hand, flying is still risky even without doing planned or inadvertent spins and we choose to do it anyway. I chose to do spin training, not because I thought it would make me a better or safer pilot, but because I was interested to experience spins and thought it was worth the additional risk.

[Big Pistons Forever]

For the spin recovery to be required the aircraft has to be in a spin. For most common types the aircraft won't be in a stabilized spin until it has rotated 2 complete turns.

For virtually any aircraft if a stall recovery of forward stick and rudder against any yawing movement is applied anywhere during the first 90 degrees of rotation the aircraft will recover without any requirement for a
"spin recovery".

When teaching at the PPL level I emphasize the importance of developing the automatic reaction of forward stick and getting on the rudder to control yaw as power is applied to arrest the descent rate. Practicing that enough times so that it becomes instinctive is is the key to not becoming a statistic.

Personally I don't get the logic of spin training at the PPL. It requires the low time pilot to be so asleep at the switch that he/she lets the aircraft stall and yaw uncontrollably through one or even two turns but then suddenly rise to the occasion and apply the appropriate antispin controls movements in the right order and for the right amount of time.:confused:

I think it makes a lot more sense to spend the time on working on recovering from the stall before it becomes a spin, which isn't very hard as all you have to do is step on the rudder when the nosed snaps to one side.

Since the accident statistics clearly show most inadvertent stalls occur at low altitude your likely only chance to survive is a prompt recovery at the first sign of the stall. If you let the airplane depart into the start of a spin you are going to die......

[Ultralights]

So much fear over something so, well, quite a simple phenomenom, stalls are no more than exceeding the critical AOA. nothing more, nothing less. irrelevent of speed.
you pull a litte to far turning final, you hit the stall AOA. you simply release backpressure, only enough to get AOA back below critical AOA, only has to be 1 degree, and you unstall..fly as normal,

A proper stall recovery should loose no more than 10 ft in altitude. it can be done, just try it.. (look up stall stick position)

the key to preventing the spin scenario, is YAW.... keep your turns Balanced, you will not spin. no matter the bank angle.. simple. go to altitude and practice it with an instructor, a good instructor.
the cause of the turn final spin scenario is usually adding large amounts of rudder to quicken the turn, (almost everyone is guilty of this) at the same time pulling back to tighten the turn, now you approach stall AOA, with an unbalanced aircraft.. spin is likely. if you are balanced, no YAW moment has been introduced, you just tighten the turn with backstick, you stall, release backpressure, unstall, continue turn.. no spin. BALANCED turns are the key.

As for Spins, proper fully developed spins, all you do is introduce YAW at the point of stall..
as in the vid below, full back at 60kts to induce a G stall. then full rudder to induce the YAW moment, spin develops.
As said before, a proper developed spin takes a few turns to develop. the first two are the incipient stage. you will feel a reduction in cetrifugal force, to almost nill, once the spin has stabilised. as will airspeed and rate of decent.

qw75rNaTNT0

[RatherBeFlying]

Theoretically an a/c will not enter a spin without yaw and indeed, keeping the ball/yaw string in the middle will delay the spin.

But some aircraft will decide to spin with the ball/yaw string in the middle. Hint: anything advertised as aerobatic has the control authority to spin in conditions where most other a/c would not.

A little bit of aileron close to the stall can stall one wing first -- and there's your spin.

Derek Pigott, a preeminent glider instructor, wrote that gliders will not spin out of a 45 degree bank because the elevator in that attitude does not have sufficient authority -- the aerobatic Puchaz does:\

[Big Pistons Forever]

But some aircraft will decide to spin with the ball/yaw string in the middle. Hint: anything advertised as aerobatic has the control authority to spin in conditions where most other a/c would not.

A little bit of aileron close to the stall can stall one wing first -- and there's your spin.

\

This is why recovering from an unintended spin is a big part of the initial aerobatic course. However it has about the same relevance to a PPL flying a Cessna or Piper as instruction on say avoiding mach tuck.

[foxmoth]

I found myself getting very anxious when it came to stalls in the Tomahawk, because not only did I not know what would happen, but I knew the aircraft had a poor reputation for coming out of spins.

In that case I think you have the wrong story on Pa38 spins, many are wary of spinning them because they actually spin properly but the tail wagging can be quite frightening (hint - don't look!), but AFAIK there have not been big problems in the recovery.:cool:

[GuilhasXXI]

Dammn, I can´t wait to start practising spin recovery, I´ve seen some videos on Youtube, but that one is really good !

GuilhasXXI

[abgd]

but AFAIK there have not been big problems in the recovery.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cool.gif

The story goes that the Tomahawk test flights went fine, but the production versions differed structurally slightly from the prototype. Something to do with reduced numbers of ribs leading to decreased wing stiffness. I've never been entirely certain whether to believe it - can you really make such major changes without having to repeat all the certification tests?

Anyway, it is apparently possible to get the weight and balance correct and still get yourself into an unrecoverable spin on some of the the newer aircraft.

[Pace]

We cannot look at spinning in isolation and I think this is where the attitudes to spinning go wrong.
No one talks of spiral dives? Somone posted that when practicing spins the aircraft kept going into a spiral.
That is so important knowing what the aircraft is doing and being able to instinctively correct it.
Stalls, spins, spirals should be regarded as one as one can lead to the other.
The well documented PC12 crash appears to have had the lot a number of stalls spins and spirals before breaking up and crashing.
The pilot would appear to have become disorientated and incorrectly recover resulting in a tragic situation

Pace

[Pegpilot]

Quite a few glider pilots thermal with a small dollop of out-of-turn yaw string applied (indicating slight slipping), as it provides a little bit more insurance against the stall/spin scenario in a turn that's low speed and quite steeply banked (remembering that stall speed goes up with bank angle).

[Jim59]

Quite a few glider pilots thermal with a small dollop of out-of-turn yaw string applied (indicating slight slipping), as it provides a little bit more insurance against the stall/spin scenario in a turn that's low speed and quite steeply banked (remembering that stall speed goes up with bank angle).


I don't think that is the reason. The yaw string is ahead of the centre of lift so if the yaw string is exactly fore/aft you will have in-turn rudder. Yaw string showing slightly out-of-turn means you have the correct amount of rudder.

Imagine a very long glider going round a small radius turn and you will see the nose has air flowing from one side, and the tail from the other.

[mad_jock]

I thought the only change was that in the UK that we required 4 point harnesses because they thought that the student had in some way fouled the controls in a 3 point. And there was all those AD's for the tail.

The Tomahawk Spinning Saga (http://www.ozaeros.flyer.co.uk/tomahawk/tomahawk.htm)

Tomahawk: "As the rudder hits the stop, rapidly move the control wheel full forward and be ready to relax the forward pressure as the stall is broken."

Its been years since I have been near a tommy POH and the spins I did you never needed to apply full forward movement of the controls. You required barely any forward movement. And if a student did the thing would bunt and you would end up vertically pointing towards the ground.


Most of the damage in my view was done with over zealouse pulling out of the dives with secondary stalls/spins or completely busting Vne.

The flat spins people were getting into were due to control inputs of the ailerons which if you apply roll input the spin will go flat and it doesn't how much rudder input you put in it won;t come out until you release the roll.

There were quite a few changes from the prototypes. They added rumble strips and a few other things.

They were fine for spinning. It was just that they did it properly and you had to recover properly as well. If you just shut your eyes and did nothing it would stay in the spin unlike the cessna which 99% of the time would fly itself out of it anyway.

I have been in a cessna spin which it didn't come out of using the POH method and that was a whole different kettle of fish than a normal cessna spin and to be honest it was more impressive than the tommys normal spin. Thankfully it was a FIC instructors demo of why not to use the ailerons in a steep turn on the nibble doing a min radius turn.

[mary meagher]

Very picturesque, that Sunset Spinning in the Clouds video....but I sure didn't see any lookout for traffic!

Also, spinning down through clouds is a very poor idea. Almost as bad as skydivers freefalling through clouds.

Especially if you happen to be in a glider turning under that particular cloud, as did happen not too long ago.

[Fuji Abound]

Mary - hang on, maybe my imagination but I didn't see them going through the cloud hard deck in either of those spins.

I do agree with regards to some clearing turns but we don't know whether or not these were done before the clips.

While I truly believe clearing turns and a good look out are important to be provocative I sometimes wonder why. We turn 180 degrees one way and 180 the other, we look and we check for traffic but will we see traffic closing from below while we spin down and how likely are we happy to find ourselves in the same bit of space at the same time? To be provocative how many mid airs have there been as a consequence of not doing clearing turns? Just a thought.

[Ultralights]

yes, there were clearing turns done, before every spin, they are boring and not worth putting in an edited video. also, the training are the flight was in has a dedcated aerobatic box for such training away from students doing basic flight training. , no clouds or hard decks were broken during the fliming of these events. ... :ok:

[mary meagher]

Thanks for the clarification on clearing turns, Ultralights! And I was thoroughly impressed by the calm professional approach of the instructor, the alacrity of the stunt aircraft to enter the spin promptly on being provoked with the rudder when stalled, and the tidy way it rotates and recovers when asked. Big skies in Australia leave room for dedicated areas for such maneovers. In the UK we see people performing aerobatics in just any old bit of Clear Air Space. Usually they survive.

But the clearing turns should not be ommitted, whenever and wherever. If you are going to do 8 or 10 turns before recovery, you will use a column of airspace that is far from usual flight patterns, and so you have every duty to do your best to make sure nobody is going to come cruising by and penetrate that column when you are enjoying the sensation...and broken cloud can contain unpleasant surprises.

Those who are nervous of spin training (and I sure as hell didn't like it and contemplated quitting when first experiencing that nose down autorotation) do not need to do long spins to gain from the experience. I would always ask my students to put the glider into the spin, as the instructor does in this video, recognise that it is a spin and not a spiral dive, and do the recovery; in other words, the student has control for the complete exercise. Granted, a K13 glider is a docile craft; an aerobatic Cessna l52 quite lively, and engine management adds to the complexity of the recovery. That's about the limit of my experience, aside from messing about in K8 single seaters when you want to get rid of some altitude.....

As other posters have pointed out, the one that will kill you is the result of over ruddering a final turn, when trying to stretch the glide by raising the nose.....

[taybird]

an aerobatic Cessna l52 quite lively

Never heard a C152A described as quite lively before! There are plenty of other aerobatic aircraft I would consider as lively, but never a poor old C152. That said, learning aerobatics in one is good, simply because you can't rely on lots of power and lots of control - you really do have to fly it and coax it round each figure.

[Fuji Abound]

Taybird - I suspect it is all relative.

I am lucky enough to have some hours in a Extra - for me that was lively. I bet for some it seems tame.