John Lewis broadband

[Rossian]

Anyone in here who actually HAS it? Or is it just about to be rolled out?

IF they can give the service that I've received in the past with many other purchases and with the level of customer service I've experienced I'm tempted to give it a punt.

Or, is it a case of better the devil you know than.....?? Why is changing ISPs such a PITA? There just has to be better way, surely.

The Ancient Mariner

[mixture]

Rossian,

Hmm.... I've seen all the tricks in the salesman's book.....

Look behind the brand, find out :

(a) Are they just reselling BT's product like 99.9% of the ISPs out there, or are they reselling a LLU product, in which case, which one ? I can guarantee you one thing, its not going to be their own LLU network !

(b) Probe them a bit on the post sales support. Who is really providing it, and where are they located ?

If they are cagey about releasing details on the above, then give the product a wide berth.

With a brand name like John Lewis, one would hope they've done their homework and chosen to partner with a reasonable ISP. But in todays bottom line driven world, you can never be too sure, Waitrose, for example, is not what it used to be, standards are slipping a bit there !



Edit to add:

Actually, scrap the above (I've left it there as a good lesson for all though), look at the T&Cs .... line one :

Plusnet plc is the service provider under these Terms and Conditions and by agreeing to these terms and conditions you (the customer) will be contracting with us (Plusnet plc)

So you're buying a Plusnet service, Plusnet are owned by BT, so in all probability they're using BT's network.

If you still fancy it (not making a recommendation !), just contract with Plusnet directly, no need to waste time with the John Lewis branding. Although kudos to John Lewis for making it reasonably easy to find the answer !

Personally, if you're going to go through the hassle of switching, I would look at LLU rather than BT ! But that's my opinion.

[BOAC]

One of the better ISPs

[Milo Minderbinder]

interestingly, BT purchased Plusnet because of the strength of Plusnet's backhaul network (which they'd inherited from someone else)!!!!!

and the real useful point it that most of Plusnets customer and tech support is based in the UK, not Asia

[Saab Dastard]

the strength of Plusnet's backhaul network

Which backhaul network would that be? AFAIK Plusnet always used BT's network.

SD

[Milo Minderbinder]

can't remember for sure offhand, but I've a feeling they picked up part of the Cable & Wireless / Mercury system after that collapsed
The domestic part of Mercury went - ultimately - to Virgin, but other parts got spun off elsewhere and I have a feeling that Plusnet (under an earlier name) picked up part
Of course I could be totally misrembering, but I'm certain it was the backbone that interested BT. It was at a time when BT were struggling to upgrade their own infrastruture and the Plusnet network made a nice plugin

[Saab Dastard]

they picked up part of the Cable & Wireless / Mercury system after that collapsed

CWW certainly didn't collapse - Mercury was a subsidiary that got re-merged back into CWW, which, together with the acquisitions of Energis, Thus (and some others in the UK) became the current CWW - recently bought by Vodafone.

You are right that CWW sold off its cable TV arm to NTL (which was subsequently bought by Virgin).

Since CWW didn't collapse, no parts were available to be picked up by Plusnet, or anybody else!

Of course I could be totally misrembering,

Quite.

SD

[mixture]

I'm certain it was the backbone that interested BT

Very much unlikely.

(a) it probably wasn't "their" backbone anyway
(b) even if it was, in the grand scheme of things.... goliath BT, david plusnet..... tiny backbone irrelevant to BT

Hint: Technically, they were acquired by BT Retail. So the internal justification would have been solely sales and revenue based in terms of adding to BT's bottom line.

BT acquired Plusnet in 2007, looking back at one of Plusnet's prior financial reports in 2005, they made the following statement :

PlusNet is BT Retail's preferred partner for projects demanding automated customer relationship management, which is fundamental to Teleworker. Teleworker is a Broadband access solution for organisations to enable their employees to work remotely and allow the organisation to maintain the management of their employees' internet connection. The Teleworker product, which was launched by BT in August 2003, has been adopted by over 30 of BT's blue-chip corporate customers. BT intends to accelerate growth in the number of Teleworker end-users in 2005.

So assuming this is correct, and BT Retail were relying on some of PlusNet's IP and resources to provide services to some of BT's most treasured and critical customers, the acquisition was most likely also a bit of a safety move on the BT to ensure their vested interests in PlusNet's continued existence (and ensuring PlusNet didn't fall into the hands of the competition).

[Rossian]

....."look at LLU"?
I think I understand what LLU involves, but at a small exchange in the country what is the liklihood of an ISP doing it?

The Ancient Mariner

[mixture]

There's a website called SamKnows (SamKnows - Accurate broadband performance information for consumers, governments and ISPs (http://www.samknows.com)) that has a UK Broadband Availability Checker.

I put in a random morayshire postcode of IV30 6YA and it seems to think both TalkTalk and Sky LLU are in your the morayshire area.

But you might be at one of those unfortunate exchanges out in the sticks where BT still has a healthy monopoly. I really hope you're not in one of those areas though !

TalkTalk isn't that bad, but I've always found the Easynet network (on which Sky operate) to be consistently better.

I haven't looked at the commercial side of Sky's offering, so you'd be well advised to check the usual suspects of contention ratios etc before signing up.

[Jofm5]

Saab,

Found your response earlier about the backhaul network a bit strong

especially...


You are right that CWW sold off its cable TV arm to NTL (which was
subsequently bought by Virgin).

Since CWW didn't collapse, no parts were
available to be picked up by Plusnet, or anybody else!


First point about C&W, you are incorrect - Bulldog was one of the leading edge ISP owned/operated by cable and wireless and as part of C&W's troubles it was sold on to Pipex who later got consumed by Tiscali. I was a customer of theirs when they offered Channel Bonded ISDN over 0800 links back in the day - they were very good.

BT bought plusnet for two reasons, firstly was the SME market they had penetrated (Small to medium Enterprises) and secondly becuase of their network as Milo alluded to. What BT was interested in was that Plusnet had implemented the Quality of Service (QOS) over their network so that high usage subscribers did not impact on the rest of the network users - interestingly what was not of interest was the network itself but the architecture behind it because they had a new project in the pipeline that could benefit from that expertise.

The new project was the 21CN project (21st century network) which is to move the telecoms infrastructure from TDM to IP - to do this without loss of quality is quite an art considering that voice data is RTP which if you dont want delay will be over UDP not TCP. This is still a major issue for many wholesale carriers even though optical routers have QOS metrics and routing capabilities built in.

So in essence I think you were a bit harsh on Milo as whilst he did not recall correctly it was C&W he was correct in that BT procured them primarily for the network knowhow if not the network itself.


Regards,

Jof
(long time since I posted on here)

[Saab Dastard]

Jof,

We were (or rather Milo was) talking about "backhaul networks" - C&W sold off the Bulldog Customer base, not any of the network, and Plusnet may have been an early adopter of QoS technology, but that isn't a backhaul network.

And while CWW did go through some troubling times, it was not a "collapse". By that measure, Apple, IBM and BT among many, many more have "collapsed"!

SD

[mixture]

Jofm5,

Hmmm ....

Considering they were bought by BT Retail, I suspect QoS didn't play a major role in their decision.

More likely BT wanted to ensure the BT brand could continue to be sold to people who don't want to contract with BT. BT wanted to have a subsidiary that could compete with other ISPs, such as TalkTalk and Sky on price.

Added to the above, BT were buying the customer base as well as the IP in the Teleworker product that BT were selling into their valuable corporate customer base.

I believe BT were also interested in TalkTalk's CRM system (the WorkPlace platform) more than anything network level.

Infact, this is what BT published as "reasons for the offer"...


4. Background to and reasons for the Offer


BT considers that PlusNet has established a successful ISP business
focusing on the discerning broadband user. Furthermore, PlusNet benefits
from an industry leading internet based service platform (Workplace).


BT intends to continue to leverage and develop PlusNet's Workplace
platform and has no immediate plans to integrate PlusNet into existing
BT services, maintaining its focus on the internet serviced, discerning
user, at competitive broadband rates. BT believes that, by combining
this platform with its existing resources and expertise within BT
Retail, the customer experience will be enhanced.



Seems to be very little interest in QoS or any network element, which is no doubt why they were bought by BT Retail !

There was also a leaked email from former CEO Lee Strafford back in 2007 that pretty much confirms it was nothing about the network :


In 2000 I assumed sole control of the future of Team PlusNet and I took that responsibility very seriously, some would say too seriously. I realised that we had a huge opportunity but that if we wanted to take ourselves as far as possible that we need a plan and a methodology that we could all buy into in order to be able to put in the superhuman effort required to achieve what weended up achieving with no outside help be that financial or resources (and what turned out to be quite a large amount of external hindering). The plan was [1] finish the development of and upgrade of workplace, [2] establish PNT as the best operator in our space measured by churn rate and profits, [3] float the business in the London stock exchange in 2004 and [4] sell the business to BT 2 years later.

[Ancient Observer]

One of the ways that I got BT to lower their price to me for Broadband and calls was that I quoted plusnet's price to them. They said it was nothing to do with that, but as I had asked them to transfer me to plusnet, and then the price shot down, I was not convinced by their argument.

[Rossian]

.....as ever in this room I've had some solid gen and skipped the minutiae arguments I don't understand. Thanks all.

I took a look at Sam knows, mixture, and my exchange is one of the ones you made pitying noises about. No ISP has LLU operating at this exchange, only BT.
However comma if plusnet is the JL ISP and plusnet is a subsid of BT and Alves is a BT only exchange is it too much to hope that plusnet will be more effective in persuading BT to improve the lines??

I may also try Ancient Observers route and tell my ISP that I'm thinking of moving because of the poor system and the ever increasing costs, and see what the response is.

The Ancient Mariner

[mixture]

Roissian,

If you're stuck on a BT exchange, the best you can do is an ISP called Zen.

Sure if the local BT network is rubbish they can't help, but at least you're guaranteed a UK call centre with people who are actually quite knowledgeable and not reading off a script.

[Milo Minderbinder]

I'll second that recommendation for Zen
no traffic profiling or throttling, UK support, they don't monitor your useage for advertising purposes.
and they've not blocked access to The Pirate Bay......

[ExSp33db1rd]

Why is changing ISPs such a PITA?

Surely the biggest problem is having to change one's e-mail address - unless using Gmail or Hotmail or similar ?

I'd LOVE to change mine, the local NZ Telecom service, but can't face the issue of changing address.

Last week I was getting no service, the girl in the cave in Outer Hyderabad insisted on my going through all the troubleshooting tricks - which I had already done for myself, changing filters, cables, outlets, and I even had a spare modem to prove that things still didn't work, and she finally agreed to report the issue.

Next day "they" admitted that there was a national problem, albeit localised to my area, that should be fixed shortly - why didn't "they" tell me that the first day - and I subsequently got a txt. message saying all was well. It wasn't.

Won't bore you with the details of five days of talking each day to the cave, the last neanderthal occupant of which finally agreed to "move me up a step" and I started to speak to a familar accent not too far away. That voice agreed to "send a man" next day - which I had demanded from day one - and said "man" told me that "they" had upgraded the service last week and older Modems wouldn't work.

Were "they" ever going to tell me ? The cave dweller was furious that I had been told of the real reason for the problem, said that their workman had no right to divulge that information, then offered me a "special deal" which allowed me to buy a now compatible modem at a slightly reduced price. Big deal. "Cave" said the local line maintenance company had performed the upgrade, so it wasn't Telecoms fault. Really ? who had engaged the line contractors to perform the upgrade ?

Now have new modem working, after 8 days without Internet, and angry letter has been despatched to CEO by snailmail - breath is held.

Oh yes, during this exercise - and before they had admitted to any changes - I was sent another txt. message telling my to follow the progress of the "fix" to my problem by going to their website !! Exactly how ?

Grrrrr !! I would willingly change ISP, but sadly NZ Telecom look after the telephone lines that provide the Broadband, so they would walk away from any problem caused by another ISP - and I'd have to change my e-mail address.

World's Gone Mad.

I blame Bill Gates.

[exeng]

I went through this dilemma some years ago and decided to adopt a gmail address (plus a yahoo address also)

Now I never have to worry about changing ISP's and change them when I feel I need to.

Regards
Exeng

P.S. I was an E/O on the 747 classic for 19 years from 76 so I would imagine we must have been crewed together. Be good to hear from you so send a PM if you want to swap a few stories. I'm still flying, but things have gone downhill somewhat from those good days.

[mixture]

I'm still flying, but things have gone downhill somewhat from those good days.

Haven't become a trolly dolly have you ?

[ExSp33db1rd]

exeng

.....and decided to adopt a gmail address

Thanks, I'm aware of that and have started down that path.

........so send a PM

Interesting ! Wilco, standby.

[izod tester]

There is no need to change email addresses if you change your ISP.

I still use the e-mail address I had when I had a dial-up internet account in the early 90s. Although I went to BT for ISDN and later ADSL service, I still pay a small charge to ClaraNet for use of their SMTP servers.

Also, I have 2 domains registered to me for which the hosting company provides a forwarding service for emails addressed to me at those domains to my ClaraNet address. If I decide to terminate the Claranet account, then I can easily change the forwarding details with the domain hosting company to forward to the new ISP provided email address. One of my domain email addresses is the one I give when I register to on-line services and the subsequent spam sent to that address does not bother me since it does not get forwarded to my real everyday account.

[Milo Minderbinder]

you may be lucky in doing that with Claranet, but you try doing the same with Orange, or Sky, or Talktalk / Tiscali / Pipex........
admittedly the Talktalk companies sometimes don't terminate the account, but they do more often than not - especially if you left as the result of a dispute

[ExSp33db1rd]

and if I used this combination I'd still be relying on NZ Telecom to do the forwarding, or whatever they have to do, and as we hate each other .......... ??

[Milo Minderbinder]

exactly
either get yourself a free account with AOL/Microsoft/Yahoo/Gmail (my preference is for Yahoo - its easier to set up with local client software than the others)

or pay some one to host your own domain and run your e-mail through that.

[mike-wsm]

Not forgetting hotmail, of course.

I've tried all sorts of email accounts, including ones forced on me by bt and google, and one that came with my website. None have offered anything like the features of hotmail.

In hotmail I have a large number of files where I can put emails from different people or companies. There are lots of options including a facility for barring unwanted incoming mail from specific addresses and hotmail bars anything from known spam addresses.

It is not tied to a specific computer, I just log in from anywhere.

[BOAC]

Haven't become a trolly dolly have you ? - look, I've seen exeng's legs, and there is NO WAY..........................He cannot even make a decent cup of tea.