Helitrans (Norway) AS-350 missing off coast of Germany

[M609]

A/C dropped off the radar screens at 14:30 local on a flight crossing the ocean from Germany to Halmstad/ESMT in Sweden.

Not looking good. Search suspended for the night.

www.vg.no - Helicopter missing (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vg.no%2Fnyheter%2Finnenriks%2Fartikkel.ph p%3Fartid%3D10063574&act=url)

Wx on departure (Lubeck) was CAVOK, but weather in Copenhagen area was ****e with snow and low VV. However Soenderborg/EKSB north west of the bay was VMC.

[BGO]

Anyone knows which machine it is?

[EDMJ]

It puzzles what they were doing over the bay of Lübeck on a flight from Lübeck to Halmstad. It doesn't seem to be the most direct route either. Moreover, in a single-engine helicopter in the winter, wouldn't one choose to remain over terra firma up to Fehmarn and then have the shortest possible Baltic crossing over to Rødby in Denmark (with ferries departing every 30 minutes below you)?

[M609]

Search continues - 15 km2 area focus of the seach (www.nrk.no) (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrk.no%2Fnyheter%2Fdistrikt%2Fnrk_trondel ag%2F1.9672127&act=url)

[skadi]

According to the latest news, a German Navy Ship has detected an ELT signal east of the island of Fehmarn.

skadi

[skadi]

No results so far. The ELT Signal was obviously false alarm. A backpack with a notebook, possibly from the romanian pax, was found at a beach in the area.
Watertemperature is about 4°C :(

According to AIS-Schiffspositionen/-verkehr in Echtzeit (http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/de/default.aspx) there are still 9 searchvessels on task in the area east of Neustadt in Holstein.

skadi

[MariusX]

It is an AS350AB operating survey mission with Lidar.

[Soave_Pilot]

Any info on the name of the pilot?

[Spunk]

wouldn't one choose to remain over terra firma up to Fehmarn and then have the shortest possible Baltic crossing over to Rødby in Denmark (with ferries departing every 30 minutes below you)?

Maybe that's what he tried to do but Weather (http://www.wetter24.de/wetter-radar/radar-archiv-deutschland.html) might have been an issue. We had some snow moving in from the west heading eastbound. The last observed heading of the helicopter was a heading of 084 (away from the inbound snow?).

[raduandrei]

Somebody have some news about this situation?

[helihub]

It is an AS350AB operating survey mission with Lidar.

Assuming that means an AS350BA, Helitrans have two LN-OMY (serial 1017) and LN-ORK (1056) according to official data at 1st November. They also have one B1 and nine B3s.

I find a photo of LN-OMY looking like it may be fitted to take LIDAR stuff - although that does NOT confirm it as the subject helicopter which is being searched for.

http://www.nordicrotors.com/images_2/display_2/LN-OMY2012-08-27_08:41:20_display_7003.jpg

[MariusX]

That is right. AS350BA LN-OMY

[EDMJ]

German media reported yesterday evening that a rucksack had been found on a beach of the island of Fehmarn, containing a laptop computer which could be linked to the passenger.

[edit: sorry, didn't see Skadi's post to the same effect...]

[M609]

www.vg.no - Company says 95% of planned flight was over land (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vg.no%2Fnyheter%2Finnenriks%2Fartikkel.ph p%3Fartid%3D10063653&act=url)

[raduandrei]

Hubschrauber wohl vor Neustadt abgestürzt | shz.de (http://www.shz.de/artikel/artikel/hubschrauber-wohl-vor-neustadt-abgestuerzt.html)

[rotorpol]

To Marius X:

Marius ..are you a Lidar operator too?

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Seems as if all search efforts may now have been called off.

[Minu]

Officially, the search operations have been called off for the weekend.

But, I am checking from time to time the radar with ships that navigate in that area, and I saw one German military ship circling around, for hours, in the Bay near Scharbeutz. The ship doesn't have a declared destination, which looks like a rearch and rescue operation.
Harta live a navelor - AIS - Trafic maritim si pozitii (http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/ro/default.aspx?level0=100)

Let's hope they will find both of the people from that helicopter.

Des anyone know some online realtime radar which shows the helicopters in flight? I only have a link from a website showing only commercial flights (only planes): Flightradar24.com - Live flight tracker! (http://www.flightradar24.com/)

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Let's hope they will find both of the people from that helicopter.

It was said above that the sea temperature was about 4°c and which means if they ditched ... well .. not much one can say really.

However, there is always room for hope unless information to the contrary arises.

That flight radar site is interesting but surely there must be more air traffic (airlines) than that which is shown?

Let's keep our fingers crossed for the Helitrans crew.

[alouette]

according to the vessel tracking website, three military ships are currently out there in the suspected area...

[9Aplus]

Assuming there was no "ducane" kind of pinger on board,
now ships are performing side scan sonar sweep of seabed...

[Minu]

They still didn't found them or the helicopter. Now they will search on land, too.
On the sea, the German Navy used hi-tech sonars for the past two days but nothing showed up.

Google Traducere (http://translate.google.ro/translate?hl=ro&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.helitrans.no%2Fno%2Fforside%2F10-nyheter%2F49-pressemelding120607-16-1)

[skadi]

The search still continues. The minehunter vessel Passau from the German Navy spotted an object on the seafloor, which is now beiing investigated.

Suche nach Helikopter geht weiter - HL-live.de (http://www.hl-live.de/aktuell/textstart.php?id=81013)

skadi

[skadi]

No helicopter or parts, just rocks.

skadi

[skadi]

Latest newsreport about half an hour ago:
The helicopter was located by the searchvessel !

Vermisster Hubschrauber gefunden (http://www.ln-online.de/nachrichten/3632661/vermisster-hubschrauber-gefunden)

skadi

[Spunk]

Search pattern of the MS "Passau":

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/Captain407/Passau.png

... as found on Marinetraffic.com (http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/de/default.aspx?level0=100)

It looks like they were taking a short cut over the bay and that it hit them right in the middle of it. :(:(:(

[skadi]

It looks like they were taking a short cut over the bay and that it hit them right in the middle of it.

Thats true, draw a direkt course from Lübeck airport to Halmstad airport, that fits almost perfectly to this position.

skadi

[raduandrei]

Helitrans - Pressemelding 13.12.12 (http://helitrans.no/no/forside/10-nyheter/51-pressemelding120613-1)

[skadi]

According to the latest news, the wreck should be recovered during this night. Officials did not say anything about the two occupants.

skadi

[Torquetalk]

A very black night, poor visibility, low cloud & snow, SP in an single squirrel out over 4 degree water. What a horrible place to be.

Did the machine have any kind of stabilisation or AFCS?

[skadi]

A very black night, poor visibility, low cloud & snow, SP in an single squirrel out over 4 degree water. What a horrible place to be.

Did the machine have any kind of stabilisation or AFCS? torquetalk, the accident happened at daylight with pretty VMC around 2:00 pm!

skadi

[Torquetalk]

Thanks Skadi: thought it was at night.

[alouette]

The cause of this accident might never be known...depending on how much is left of the wreckage...

[Shawn Coyle]

Someone should check the hydraulic actuators very carefully.

[Flyting]

Someone should check the hydraulic actuators very carefully.
.........explain....

[bannn3r]

Marine findet Hubschrauber-Wrack (http://www.ln-online.de/nachrichten/3632863/marine-findet-hubschrauber-wrack)

[skadi]

The cause of this accident might never be known...depending on how much is left of the wreckage... No parts of the helicopter were found since the crash, so my opinion is that they rather made an emergency landing than a crash and the wreck is still complete. I think we will know more in the next days.

skadi

[skadi]

Weather and some technical problems prevented the recovery last night. A news update will be given by the authorities later this day. Both persons on board were not found in the wreck or vicinity.

Wetter und technische Probleme behindern Hubschrauber-Bergung (http://www.ln-online.de/nachrichten/3633604/wetter-und-technische-probleme-behindern-hubschrauber-bergung)

skadi

[Nubian]

Shawn,

Appologies if I sound abit harsh, but what the F...k do you mean with such a statement with the helicopter still in the water??

Or maybe you can be so kind and e-mail those investigators in Germany your conclusion and save them the trouble...:D

This is probably one of the most uninformative bit of information with regards to an accident I have EVER read.

[RVDT]

Shawn,

Do you have this problem?

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRTuDxG_MKVZ1FKxBiohMomO4wVMy1T1-vxN37Aem3jxeUztGrtPghttps://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTuMuA2F-YU7IgxkJ3ZPC7ceYyg0gn39bkc30tcp5hH35LuzUwV

Surprising statement given that the aircraft is still on the bottom of the sea.

With due respect maybe it should be left to the accident investigators which apparently you are not. :ugh:

[skadi]

The recovery is planned for tomorrow, divers are preparing the wreck for lifting right now:
The recovery vessel "Scharhörn" returned to the crashsite after picking up divers and material in the nearby harbour of Neustadt this morning

Vermisster Hubschrauber: Bergung beginnt - HL-live.de (http://www.hl-live.de/aktuell/textstart.php?id=81047&w=1)

skadi

[skadi]

Latest News on a local radio station "NDR 1 Welle Nord" :
Two bodys were located in the area of the downed helicopter at 20m ( 60ft ) below the surface. The helicopter is relatively undamaged, only the blades were torn off.

skadi

[Shawn Coyle]

My statement about the hydraulics is based on reviewing a whole lot of AS 350 accidents where control was clearly a problem (many where the NTSB absolutely didn't consider that), as well as reviewing a massive stack of Service Difficulty Reports that relate to hydraulic actuator problems.
In one of the accidents I was involved with a hydraulic actuator clearly failed the acceptance criteria, yet the NTSB said there was no issue.
If I were an accident investigator for a national authority, I'd have the actuators checked thoroughly on every AS350 accident unless it was clearly some other issue.

[Shawn Coyle]

RVDT:
No - I don't think Bell is perfect.
And that's not me in the picture.

[Thone1]

Latest news say that they plan to recover the wreck today, along with the two bodies that were found around 50 m away.
The doors of the helicopter were found to be open, when military divers discovered the wreck two days ago.

[alouette]

@ Shawn; could you please elaborate on the AS 350 hydraulic system, and particularly the actuators? Thanks!:ok:

[Savoia]

Alouette: As you await SC's response you might find this thread to be of interest: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/267609-as350-hydraulic-system-failures-too-many-3.html

[Shawn Coyle]

Alouette:
The AS-350 hydraulic system (single actuator version) is pretty unique in the helicopter world. It's driven by a belt (which for the first 20 years of it's life failed with monotonous regularity), and has a very complex training procedure for simulating hydraulics off. It also has probably the most complex pre-takeoff checking procedure to make sure things are operating properly.

As far as other failures go, I've not heard of any other helicopter having hard-overs in the hydraulic system with the frequency that the AS-350 series has. I've had pilots personally report to me that they'd just turned the hydraulics back on and had the cyclic motor to the lateral stop and stay there for 30 seconds.
I could go on - a brief survey of service difficulty reports showed a huge number of servos removed for motoring or binding, and certainly not meeting time between overhaul.
My intention is suggesting that hydraulic actuators be looked at in detail is that at first glance there may appear to be nothing wrong by looking at the outside of the actuator - it's only in teardown that problems might be found.
I'm not pre-judging the cause of the accident, merely trying to make sure that a potential cause might be missed.

[Nubian]

Shawn,

Might I suggest the other thread to keep posting your critisism of the design of the hyd system of the AS350, or even a new one, as your reflctions from the past don't really fit in this thread.

[tecpilot]

According to some medias the most famous german counterterrorism unit GSG9 and some other special forces units practiced while the crash happened direct near the accident site. They used according to a police spokesman some different ways of electronic warfare. The spokesman confirmed only GPS and GSM jammers and refused further informations due to the high secret level. The Spokesman told the medias none of the special forces took notice the crashing AS350 in visual range to the practice. :confused: :mad:

The recovered wreck of the AS350 is now on storage in an military area.

[skadi]

First pics of the recovered wreck:Vermissten Hubschrauber aus der Ostsee geborgen - HL-live.de (http://www.hl-live.de/aktuell/textstart.php?id=81072) It does indeed look like a controlled ditching...

http://www.hl-live.de/aktuell/bilder/heli-12-2012.jpg

The area of the police practice was about 4nm away from the crashsite and was protected by a temporary reserved airspace ( NOTAM ).

skadi

[Torque and temp]

The area of the police practice was about 4nm away from the crashsite and was protected by a temporary reserved airspace ( NOTAM ).Skadi, how large was this tempo restricted area? Could it have affected the crew's decision to take a "shortcut" and accept the 10-11 km leap over the water, instead of just flying west of the restricted area at Hansa Park?

[Thone1]

@TechPilot:

This practice area was a state fair, a protected area surrounded by fences and rollercoasters and god knows what else.

They maybe might have seen the helicopter descend, but surely not crash.
And as @skadi wrote, it was around 4 nm away.

Secondly, according to german news reports, they were indeed using GSM-jammers, but probably not at the time of the accident. And even if, what should be the implications of a GSM-jammer to an aircraft?

@TaT: Coming from Lübeck, they could have chosen a route passing the TRA on either side.
Yes, flying this route is slightly longer and lead them over the sea, but not by much.

@all: If you look up Google Maps, go to Lübeck Airport (Lübeck Blankensee).
Due north you´ll find "Sierksdorf" right on the shore of the Lübeck Bight.
Zoom in and a mile or so NE you´ll find "Hansapark". This is were the special forces were practicing.
The aircraft crashed due ESE of "Hansapark".

From my point of view (I regularly fly in this area) a sensible decision would have been to head NNW, up to Fehmarn and cross the Baltic Sea there.
That´s the so-called "Flying Bird Line", offering the shortest hop over the water. Surely birds know what they do.

The duty SAR crew was on scene not long after the alert (stationed at Warnemünde near Rostock), but nothing was found. I do not know and do not wish to report how long it´s taken for the radar operator to miss the aircraft and initiate the appropriate action.
That will be published by the BFU, the German Air Accident Investigation Branch in due course.

Thomas

EDIT: Kieler Nachrichten (Kiel News) reporting the following:
"das während der Übung keine Störsender eingesetzt wurden, außer am 6. Dezember für 15 Minuten in der Zeit von 01.05 Uhr bis ca. 01.20 Uhr ein GSM-Jammer im Rahmen des Zugriffs. Dieses Gerät störte laut Polizei lediglich die GSM Frequenzen in einem horizontal von Norden nach Süden verlaufenden etwa 300 Meter langen und 30 Meter breiten Korridor."

During the exercise there were no jammers used, except for the 6th Dec. for 15 min. between 01:05 and 01:20. That was a GSM jammer, jamming in a corridor running N-S, about 300m long and 30m wide.

[Ogsplash]

Anyone notice the complete lack of rotor damage? Cabin intact...skids still attached? Without knowing all the facts - could this be a water entry from the hover with very low rotor speed?

[topendtorque]

Lack of Damage
Anyone notice the complete lack of rotor damage? Cabin intact...skids still attached? Without knowing all the facts - could this be a water entry from the hover with very low rotor speed?

And, perhaps the crew were non swimmers, but a hasty decision indeed if they embarked on this course without life jackets???

[Bell214B]

There are some damage to the main rotor head but much less than I would have expected. They must have hit the water with very little forward speed.
I have seen the result of a ditching with the 350 and the damage to the main rotor blades was much more severe.

I do not want to speculate regarding the cause of this accident but I would like to comment on Shawns postings regarding hydraulic failure.
I have been around the 350 for quite some time and a considerably number of flying hours and have never experienced a hydraulic failure, even in the old days.
If you do a tight right turn "fighter style" with a high degree of bank you may experience servo transparancy or "jack stall" which at low altitude is deadly but on a straight and level flight with "normal" control inputs no way.
We are of course training on hydraulic failure and if you slow it down to 60-65 knots even a girl can fly it without hydraulics. But since the americans love dual hydraulics maybe that is what is causing the problem? Here in Europe single hydraulic is common.

Statement from Shawn: "I could go on - a brief survey of service difficulty reports showed a huge number of servos removed for motoring or binding, and certainly not meeting time between overhaul."
Well, the 1800 hrs TBO Dunlop servos has never caused us any problems. The 3000 hrs TBO SAMM servos has been another matter, we have had cases where they have started leaking but that does'nt mean that you get a hydraulic failure. Maybe you americans disregard the TBO and run the servos "on condition"? With your 1672 post do you know anything about the AS350 or helicopters? Or are you a "pain in the ass" interested?

This is a very tragic accident and I will follow the result of the investigation with great interest.

I have flown the same route numerous times and Lübeck has been the preferred fuel and coffe stop. But since I feel uncomfortable flying over water we have always been flying over land to Puttgarden and then to Rødby in Denmark. There are ferries going non-stop there so in case of problems you will hopefully be picked up wearing a life-jacket. It's a matter of reducing the exposure time.

[Shawn Coyle]

Bell 214B:
I do know a thing or two about helicopters, and have worked on several AS350 accidents. I don't make statements lightly on this forum.
My suggestion was and is that in any AS350 accident that doesn't have obvious other causes that the hydraulic actuators should be carefully checked.

[Bell214B]

The helicopter has been salvaged so at least they will find out what has not happened.
But since you are an investigator you have to have an open mind. Don't jump to conclutions.

[alouette]

@ Savoia; Thanks for providing the link!:ok:

@ Shawn; thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated!:ok:

[Nubian]

Shawn,

As you claim to be an investigator having dealt with several 350 crashes, it surprizes me a great deal that you are so fixed up on just one failure like you are. Most of the crashes I know about does not involve mechanical failure at all, but poor judgement and airmanship, much like the common cause in most EMS accidents in the US.....

Being an investigator with some credibility, one can't draw conclusions before the helicopter has been lifted out of the water like you did in your first post!! And seems to continue to do.:ugh:

Now, if I would have a Hyd-failure over 4 deg water, I for sure would give a flying f..k about any restrictions zone and head for the nearest dry land to put down on.

As the pictures show very little damage, this looks like a forced landing and a ditching that went well, but since the helicopter appears to not have floats, the crew had to evacuate to not drown inside. With this little damage on the helicopter, and the occupants found outside, I would assume that they were concious and exited the helicopter themselves.

So Shawn, does this accident look like an uncontrolled crash or does it look controlled? If controlled, do you think someone with "only" a hyd failure would elect to ditch a non-float equipped helicopter into 4-5 C deg water?, with a beach or heck the departure airport within 10-15 min of flying??

[skadi]

And, perhaps the crew were non swimmers, but a hasty decision indeed if they embarked on this course without life jackets???

Even good swimmers wont stay at the surface for a long time with watertemps of 4°C and airtemps below 0°. As they were found at the seafloor well clear of the wreck, i assume they had no lifevests...

skadi

[Geoffersincornwall]

...... when Black Max began to contribute his critique on composite structures I don't recall a backlash against his obvious technical experience in that area. We all, after all, have a duty to contribute to the pool of knowledge and experience on any subject that relates to an accident.

Having just read the thread for the first time in detail I find Shawn's contribution balanced and informative insofar as he is sharing his experiences with the rest of us. I don't see Shawn stating that he has identified the cause of the accident, merely pointing up something that might be missed unless the investigation goes into some detail. The S76 accident in the Baltic some years back turned out to be a hydraulic issue and that has a dual hydraulic system. I believe it took some good detective work to establish the cause of that problem.

The thread also contains the experiences of others which is why this forum is so valuable. I suggest a little less emotion (difficult for those who are emotionally involved with the crew and pax I know) and more information and opinion will add to our overall understanding.

G. :ok:

[Savoia]

Hear hear.

[mustfly79]

Condolences to the people involved in this tragedy. Shawn keep up the good work, eurocopter should be pushed hard on the subject of their hyd system in the 350. The last two fatal accidents involved with the 350 in Norway have both been concluded by the Norwegian accident investigation board to be due to servo transparency. Hopefully this is not another one..

[Nubian]

Mustfly79,


Tragic days for the families and all involved in this last accident.
Hopefully the investigators will find the cause of it as the helicopter seems to be almost intact.

Now, as you refer to servo transperancy, I don't know how much you know about the phenomenon, but it is nothing that will happen to a helicopter in cruise flight. From the accidents you mention,(all of them+a good few others) without going too much into details, they did not fly straight and level just prior to their crashes, but (semi)acrobatic flight with full ship of pax with moderate to high G-turns,High speed,etc. Google: Sundance Helicopter N270SH, or Colin McRae, G-CBHL. Those have also been discussed here before, but the investigation reports are openly availble if you do a search for it. Those are only examples, as there are many more.

In those crashes, I am not too sure the result would have been too different if said individuals was flying a another machine at the time....

Back a few years, there was a video of one of American Eurocopter's testpilots on the BO105, which was practicing for a filmshoot that went badly as well due to the pilot's too agressive handeling at a too low altitude, combined with the flightcaracteristics of the BO-105. I don't feel it is appropriate to blame the helicopter for those accidents, which is related to the individuals aciton behind the controlls.

So, for this accident which we know very little about just now, but the helicopter being almost 100% intact is a good thing for the investigators. I think it is a wrong approach to start focusing on the Hyd system like some are more inclined to do. It is just too early to do that.

All the best.

[skadi]

Official police news statement:
No HYD Problem in this case! The first inspection revealed a T/R driveshaft failure.

Grund für Hubschrauber-Absturz geklärt (http://www.ln-online.de/nachrichten/3636187/grund-fuer-hubschrauber-absturz-geklaert)

Both POBs died from hypothermia and drowning.

skadi

[Flying Bull]

Hi all,

I´d rather wait for the official report.
Broken tailrotordrives are luckily a very very rare occourence.
But the drives they shear, if the tailrotor gets stopped rapidly, i.e. by immersion into water....
The whole wreck seems so intact, that I have my doubts about a failure in flight...
Probably someone on board the vessel heard something about the broken tailrotordrive and sold it to the press...
Lets wait and see...
Greetings Flying Bull

[skadi]

Probably someone on board the vessel heard something about the broken tailrotordrive and sold it to the press...

But it was officially distributed by the police with relation to the BFU-inspectors.....

skadi

[Flyting]

Looking at how intact the main rotors are, it looks to me as though the rotors were close to stopped when the a/c went into/under the water, which would indicate an engine failure with an auto to ditching and pulling the rpm down to nothing after the flare for splash-down.
Normally when the blades hit the water in a controlled ditching, the torque effect rips everything to pieces and rolls the cabin over...

[Flying Bull]

Well, they say ""first findings" and you have Seen the pictures?
There are technical issues, which lead to crashes, like the 225 thread shows, but a tailrotorshaftfailure?
That it is broken after the bird landed in the water is what I expect. But as the reason for the crash? Possible but very very unlikely, is what I think and therefore I wait for the final report.
Greetings Flying Bull

[[email protected]]

It's not inconceivable that a hyd malfunction (hard over or pump failure rather than servo transparency) could cause a some pilots to elect for a ditching rather than continued flight - if you don't really know what has gone wrong but you are struggling to control the aircraft, you are not in a very good place to know what else might go wrong.

Engine failures are far rarer than hyd malfunctions.

[Nubian]

Crabs,

Yes, Hyd-failures and more so Hyd-transparencies are certainly more of a problem for this helicopter than engine failures. But engine failures and flame-outs, allthough the result is much the same is not the same thing.
The weather seemed to turn ****, with snowfall and presumably around freezing temperatures. Not a good combination if your aircraft does not have an inlet filter.

But hey, lets keep pushing the Hyd theory...

For Flying Bull or skadi,

According to this news article: Hubschrauber wohl vor Neustadt abgestürzt | shz.de (http://www.shz.de/artikel/artikel/hubschrauber-wohl-vor-neustadt-abgestuerzt.html)

It says: Vor Fehmarn setzte der Pilot ein Notsignal ab.

Is my German correct by saying that the pilot, managed to send out a Mayday? Or might this be just Journos adding to the story?

[skadi]

Quote:
Vor Fehmarn setzte der Pilot ein Notsignal ab.
Is my German correct by saying that the pilot, managed to send out a Mayday? Or might this be just Journos adding to the story? Your German is correct, but I dont know, whether its Journo stuff or based on other infos.

I agree, that a T/R shaft failure is a rare failure, but if this statement really comes from the BFU-inspectors, they might have some findings to confirm that. The damage to the shaft might be different to a damage, caused by sudden stop when entering the water. Position of the fuel lever? Autorotation? Many points could be important.
On an other german forum was a thread by someone, who spoke to the pilot short prior departure from Lübeck Airport and mentioned, that the helicopter was being deiced prior takeoff. Might that have had an effect?

skadi

[nigelh]

In both scenarios of hyd failure and t/r failure you would definitely try to keep flying at all costs . I see no difficulty in continuing to fly with hyd failure . T/R failure would require a decent airspeed to be kept which may be difficult if trying to dodge wx ... I would elect to keep flying , or trying , at low level towards dry land regardless of what had gone wrong .
As someone else said , transparency is not an issue in the cruise or if you have a hundred ft or so to recover .

[mustfly79]

Will be interesting to read the report, choosing to continiue flying depends on the emergency. I dont have any experience in the 350, but i have had an hyd failure in an very old bell47 about 8 years ago. An yes it can happen to you in straight and level flight with you not having any clue whats going on. Used to instruct in the machine an hyd failure training where done daily, in my case there where quite violent low frq vibrations and it did not feel anything like hyd failure. Pulling the mixture solved the problem after 3 failed landing attempts. Looking at the 350, that tailboom is long and if you start loosing parts back there you are quickly running out of cg, hard to see on the pictures if the tail is intact. I have a couple hundred hours in Danish terrotoriy, flying vip between the nordic countrys, i always fly in my survival suit when crossing kattegat\skagerrak area. Do not know if they had survival suits yet, but should be asked when flying out of gliding distance at this time of year?

[Thone1]

With regards to the mayday call made from Fehmarn:

There were initial reports of a distress signal, coming from an area near Fehmarn.
Those proved to be false.

Tom

[The Sultan]

Nigelh

Ever flown a 350 with no hydraulics? I guess not!

Just look at the dance the New York TV ship did before it hit the roof. Hydraulic failure does not end in continued flight, it ends up in whatever patch of earth you are over when it fails.

The Sultan

[Arm out the window]

Hydraulic failure does not end in continued flight, it ends up in whatever patch of earth you are over when it fails.

I don't know about the other models, but for a B or BA this is certainly not true. You can fly a good distance to a suitable site for a running landing, or even hover if you really have to, although I certainly wouldn't choose to if there was an alternative.

[Aesir]

I think you guy´s are talking about different hydraulic problems.

Hydraulic failure in itself is manageable in the 350 if it´s a loss of hydraulic pressure or even servo transparency if one knows how to handle the problem.

However there are other hydraulic failures that are not as manageable and can very well end in a uncontrolled crash and that´s servo seizure. It has happened.

[Arm out the window]

I don't think the AS350 is the only type that's ever suffered from servo problems, eg cyclic hardover etc.

[Downupside]

Can't you guys stopping speculating on the unknown or shall we remove the first 'p' of pprune?
Not posting often here, but really tired of reading post from self-called professionals...
Keep the rumour mill turning, but for god sake stop the speculation going a one way strret when we all know that most of incident/accident are happening when more than one hole of the swiss cheese align...:ugh:
Good day
Kami

[[email protected]]

Kami - historically a great deal of the speculating done on these pages has turned out to be surprisingly accurate come the final publishing of the Accident Report - despite protestations from others.

This is, after all, a virtual crewroom and therefore both informed speculation and wild-ass guessing are acceptable;)

[Anthony Supplebottom]

It seems pointless to keep urging people not to speculate after a crash for it is the most common (you could call it natural) thing for pilots and engineers to do.

We all know that nothing is definitive until the report is out so, those of you getting upset about other people's opinions should try and pipe down a little.

I don't think anyone has come out saying "this is the absolute cause of the accident" so, live and let live.

These suppositions are what many are interested in reading about and, as CRAB has said, a good many professional guesses have incidentally proven correct in the end, meaning that such idle gossip might not be all bad after all.

[Downupside]

Thank you Crab and Anthony,
May be my past participation to a few 350 accident investigations made me more cautious than I should in this forum. I am not in anyway saying that it cannot be a servo issue, but I have learned the hard way that not keeping a clean brain just hamper your ability to find the real root causes and may lead to improper hasty/easy conclusions.
I'll wait and see how it develops.
Fly safe
Kami

[MRotor]

Why is Hyd problems even on the table here? Does anything in this accident point in the direction of a Hyd problem? In the picture of the aircraft it looks like controlled ditching, and with a hyd problem you don´t ditch in the water..

[[email protected]]

MRotor - you are making a lot of assumptions about the skill level, experience and currency of the pilot.

It may be possible that a hyd failure (given the heavy pedal loads hyd out on the squirrel) might be misdiagnosed as a TR problem, especially at night in sh*t weather over the water (not in everyone's comfort zone).

[MRotor]

Maybe so, but if you get a hyd problem you get a red HYD light in the panel..
This is also required training on PC/OPC every 6 month. I was just wondering what in this case point in the direction of a hyd?

[[email protected]]

MR - to be fair, the more we hear about this sad accident, the less it looks like hyd failure/servo transparency but it was brought up at the beginning of the thread by a very experienced test pilot and investigator - it should still not be totally discounted, especially as a contributory factor.

A hyd failure might be easy to diagnose and manage on a PC/OPC when you know it is coming and during daylight - it would be a whole different ball-game at night in poor weather when you were already working hard to keep orientated.

[skadi]

It may be possible that a hyd failure (given the heavy pedal loads hyd out on the squirrel) might be misdiagnosed as a TR problem, especially at night in sh*t weather over the water (not in everyone's comfort zone). ...but this accident happened at daylight in good WX!
And the official statement of the BFU-inspectors was, that the T/R driveshaft failed. And i think, that they should be able to determine wether the shaft broke in flight or at the impact on the water surface. Just my 50cts....

skadi

[Aesir]

It seems pointless to keep urging people not to speculate after a crash for it is the most common (you could call it natural) thing for pilots and engineers to do.

And rightly so. Pilots want to know immediately if there is something dangerous about the helicopters they fly and how to minimize the risk. Anything that can help to make it safer to fly until the actual cause is found is welcome.

The main interest of the manufacturers is to blame the pilot and continue selling their helicopters. Now new AS350 have dual hydraulics despite many crashes over the years due to hyd failures. It did take about 35 years to make the aircraft safer.

Hydraulics may not have been the cause to this crash. But it has been the cause of many AS350 crashes. Many during training and some due to failures.

[[email protected]]

Skadi - apologies, I was misled by earlier posters about the time of day and weather.

[Anthony Supplebottom]

It seems there may be some correlation between AS350 accidents and poor visibility and I am now speculating (sorry but I am) as to whether this is something to do with servo-transparency?

Having never had ST in a Squirrel I don't know how it feels like but - if a pilot induced a rapid rate turn with moderately high G in order to avoid IIMC perhaps he could encounter this and, if unfamiliar with it "freak out"?

What with servo transparency (which apparently doesn't happen in some helis) and a history of hydraulic system failures plus the current tail rotor issue on the new B3e - I am beginning to lose a little confidence in the 350.

I hope I am wrong because this type has become one of the most popular singles on the planet!

[MRotor]

Skadi-...thx my point exactly.

I agree, it has been alot of accident due to the HYD system in the AS350, but I the new AS350 still comes with a single hyd system, with a dual system as an option. Because of the weight issue I belive alot of operators still will bye this helicopter with a single system. So fly safe with this "problem" in the back of your mind if you fly the AS350..

Fly safe

MRotor

[ShyTorque]

Having never had ST in a Squirrel I don't know how it feels like

You should be so lucky, ducky! ;)

Cheers, ST.

[Anthony Supplebottom]

And there I was thinking you didn't care!

[Gemini Twin]

ST is not the major problem. Lose hydraulics on a 350 and you will be as busy as can be.

·
Simulated Hydraulic failure

(


Except EC 130 B4 & AS 350 B3 equipped with the optional dual hydraulic system):

- In steady flight conditions, simulate the hydraulic failure by depressing HYD TEST push button on the
System Control Unit (



Honeywell or SCU console panel): HYD + Gong sounds to be able to achieve Vy,

CAUTION


: The Instructor must insist to obtain speed reduction before the HYD cutting off.

- The intensity and direction of the control feedback force will change rapidly. This will result in a loss of
control,
- Control loads increase with speed. As control loads increase, be careful not to inadvertently move twist
grip out of FLIGHT detent,
- If necessary during the training exercise, hydraulic assistance can be recovered immediately by setting
back HYD TEST pushbutton to OUT position or by switching back the hydraulic cut-off switch to ON,
- If the HYD TEST pushbutton is not reset on the SCU, no hydraulic assistance can be restored. After
hydraulic cuts off with the switch on the collective lever, do not forget to switch off the HYD pushbutton on
the console.
- Once safety speed set, reset HYD TEST pushbutton to restore hydraulic pressure in tail rotor
accumulator (AS 350 B2/B3).
On previous versions of AS350 equipped with a HONEYWELL console control, do not silence the HORN
by using the HORN switch.
The HORN will be silenced when the pilot selects the hydraulic cut-off switch to off.
If the pilot uses the HORN switch to silence the HORN before using the hydraulic cut-off switch, this
crucial step could be forgotten. This could then result in significant unbalanced lateral cyclic feedback
forces, especially at low speed, if one of the lateral accumulators depletes before the other one.
In addition, de-activating the HORN using the HORN switch, makes it unavailable to warn the pilot of low
or high rotor RPM.
Pay attention to the following:
- Hydraulic accumulators gives energy during approximately 20 seconds, so reduce to safety speed
in this time delay,
- Do not accelerate after switching OFF the hydraulic cut-off,
- Anticipate to perform a shallow approach,
- Perform a running landing,
- Hover flight or any low speed maneuver must be avoided,
- Keep in mind that All Up Weight increase risks of aircraft control loss at low speed,
- The statistics show that a non strict compliance with the procedure increases the level of risk in a


consequent way

[nigelh]

Sultan . As Arm out of window says ... The 350 is very flyable with no Hydraulics . I had one for 10 years and regularly did approaches , landing and hovering . This really would not be a problem for a cpl in my opinion .
Lets hope we find out soon .

[Arm out the window]

I don't know what you're getting at with the 'busy as you can be' thing, Gemini Twin - what you've put there is a few simple actions and some notes, and is really a very simple procedure.

Simulate with the test switch.

Slow to a safe speed if required.

Activate the collective-mounted hydraulic isolate.

Reset the test switch.

Plan and fly the landing - usually a shallow approach and run on with a few knots.

To say it's difficult is very misleading.

[TomAndreas-NOR]

Not to say even easier for the actual emergency which is basically:

-Set IAS 40-60
-Collective HYD switch OFF
-Shallow approach

Doesn't sound too difficult does it? I am probably weaker than the average pilot, and I have no problems handling the 350 HYD off. And since we train on this every 6 months I'm not losing any sleep over flying the 350. So can we move further HYD discussions to the 350 Hyd thread until there is actually any indication that this was caused by HYD problem? So far there have been none.

To sum up what we actually know about this case:

- the aircraft seems to have made a successful forced landing into the sea
- the occupants have made it out of the helicopter
- preliminary findings point towards possible t/r driveshaft failure
(I find it hard to believe that investigators wouldln't take into account the forces on the driveshaft when impacting the water, so to me it sounds they have evidence this failed prior to impact with the surface)
- the accident happened in day VMC

I'd like to thank Skadi for keeping us up to speed during the search for the helicopter, and for keeping us up to speed on local newspaper articles about the accident. Thanks!

Tom

[HeliHenri]

Hello,

This aircraft seems to be one of the first 350 (serial number 17) built in 1978. 34 years of flight without big issue until this sad event.

[Spunk]

Dear Mods, can we take this discussion about hydraulic problems in an AS350 to a new thread.
I know that it might be related to this accident but somehow we are drifting of topic.

Thanks

[Senior Pilot]

Dear Mods, can we take this discussion about hydraulic problems in an AS350 to a new thread.
I know that it might be related to this accident but somehow we are drifting of topic.

Thanks

Any further discussion relating to AS350 hydraulics should be made on AS350 hydraulic system failures: too many? (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/267609-as350-hydraulic-system-failures-too-many.html) and leave this thread to the crashed AS350 topic.

[Shawn Coyle]

This is going to be a very difficult accident to decipher - but at the end of the day, the data won't lie. The difficulty will be in the interpretation of that data.

[TomAndreas-NOR]

In one of the pics the T/R looks fairly intact, maybe that wouldn't be the case if it hit the water turning at some 2000 RPM? Maybe the investigators have used indicators like that to suspect t/r driveshaft failure. I'm guessing it would be relatively easy for investigators to determine if it was turning or not on impacting the surface.

A very tragic accident regardless of cause...

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Apologies if this has already been asked but is it known if they had a raft aboard?

Given the sea temperature this was probably the only thing (and survival suits) that might have protected them against the effects of the cold water (for a bit longer at least). Presumably the raft would have carried flares which may also have helped?

[MRotor]

No dingy, floats ect.. There has been a discution in the norwegian media about
required equipment for this flight..

[onesquaremetre]

What were the requirements for survival equipment on this flight? Did they require a raft or lifejackets? If not, someone needs to have a very close look at the rules with a view to a re-write. Ignoring the fact that the accident happened quite close to the departure airfield, the island hop between Fehmarn and Lolland is about 12 miles and would have been significant over a warm sea by day in the middle of summer. I can't swim that far.

[Grenville Fortescue]

1. Was the over water section on the original flight plan.

2. Is it possible that if the weather was poor enough the engine could have flamed-out?

[Thone1]

There was no poor weather.

[Nubian]

If this flight was not carrying fare-paying pax, ie. that he was paying for going form A to B, there is not a requirement for floats from the regs. as far as I know.
It might be in the company's Operating Manual, but if this was a ferry with two crew, then it is up to the pilot to choose the route that he will be comfortable with.
Now, how smart it is to fly over large bodies of (freezing) water without suits,dingy and floats are a different discussion, but that it's illegal is unlikely.

It looks like really bad luck, having to fly (further) out over open water due to the exercise, and then have an emergency which dictates a forced landing. What are the odds of that?!

[JimL]

Nubian,

I would have said 'reasonably foreseeable'.

It's not just regulations that have to be considered, there is also the matter of risk assessment.

Jim

[SASless]

Let's get back to the issue of Life Jackets, Raft, Exposure Suits and a planned overwater flight for a bit.

How much of the flight was over +4C water?

Did the Regulations require Survival Gear (Jackets, Raft, Suits)?

Did Company Policy require such gear?

If not....what was the actual reason none was carried?

Did the Bodies show any evidence of Jackets being worn?

Did the wreckage contain any Life Jackets?

What was the weather in the area of the crash at the time....anyone have the TAF or other source of information? In the US EMS crash thread someone almost immediately posts the weather data. Did I miss that here?

Has anyone posted a full list of photos and attempted to point out any abnormalities or unusual evidence of a failure of a component, perhaps some of missing components?

A few answers to these sorts of questions would seem to be in order long before all and sundry attempt to determine the reason for the crash by peering into their own Tea Cup.

Stick to the Known and work towards the Unknown shall we?

[Anthony Supplebottom]

The one thing I think you can say about this accident is that it is very bl**dy confusing.

First we have this:

Wx on departure (Lubeck) was CAVOK, but weather in Copenhagen area was ****e with snow and low VV.

Then this:

It puzzles what they were doing over the bay of Lübeck on a flight from Lübeck to Halmstad. It doesn't seem to be the most direct route either. Moreover, in a single-engine helicopter in the winter, wouldn't one choose to remain over terra firma up to Fehmarn and then have the shortest possible Baltic crossing over to Rødby in Denmark (with ferries departing every 30 minutes below you)?

Then this:

Maybe that's what he tried to do but Weather might have been an issue. We had some snow moving in from the west heading eastbound.

And finally:

There was no poor weather.

And that's just to do with weather. Everything from CAVOK to impending snow showers!

Regarding equipment on board we have been told there was nothing, nowt, zero!

No dingy, floats ect.. There has been a discution in the norwegian media about required equipment for this flight..

So, I would say take your pick of answers!

[RVDT]

AS,

That's pprune for you!

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent

[Thone1]

I admit that I have it easier to keep up with the details covered in german news as a native speaker, but @AS, you´re absolutely right.

It´s a small gap between "flying hyds off in an AS350 in poor weather is hard" to "they had horrible weather and their hydraulics were off" and some like to criss-cross it regularly.

Facts:
There was a police exercise "nearby". They chose to fly over water rather than over land to avoid.
This is all the influence this exercise had on this flight.
Weather in the area was CAVOK. Copenhagen is not even near and therefor not a contributing factor in the accident.
SAR Sea King and several ships were on scene quickly but didn´t find anything.
The initial report of a SARBE near Fehmarn was false.
Both bodies were discovered 50 m away from the wreck. The wreck was found by a german minehunter. The bodies were found by police (?) divers.
Initial inspection by the BFU (german accident investigation branch) pointed towards a tail rotor drive shaft failure.

That is it. Everything else is speculation and guesswork.

And by the way: I´ve flown the AS350 BB (single hydraulic system) hyds off on almost every dual sortie during DHFS, it is very manageable if you practice it.

Tom

[SASless]

Knowing nothing of the 350.....does a Tail Rotor Drive Shaft failure put you down....or is the aircraft controllable (considering the circumstances of loading etc)?

[albatross]

Long time ago on a powerline patrol southbound on the right side of the line in a 350D a friend had a tail rotor drive shaft failure at 150 ft and as I recall about 70 kts so he had low power to begin with. He did a 30-40 foot run on landing on a very near-bye frozen lake off to his right ( high skid gear with skis 3 pax and full fuel). I am not sure if he retarded the throttle in the air but I seem to recall that he did not. It was a good bit of aviating on his part. I do recall he said it was not a problem. -40C and a 10-20 kt wind from the west.
He had secured the aircraft, put on the blade and body covers by the time some kind soul came to pick him and his pax up about 25 minutes later. He even took off the drive shaft cover to ascertain what the problem was - Shaft had sheared at the bearing 1/2 way down the tail boom.
We flew down with a heater and a new drive shaft 2 days later in the morning and were back with the machine by 1500 hrs.

[newfieboy]

I had an overspeed followed by engine quiting in a SD2 couple years ago. Turns out it was a bearing in the governor let go, but first indications due the engine overspeed were of a tail rotor driveshaft failure....made for interesting times on the way down. Successful Mayday and landing and p/u an hour later due a good floatplane buddy. Oh yeah upon flare and landing, took the driveshaft out so yep lucky.....but we were thinking tail rotor driveshaft Until bench test on engine a la Honeywell confirmed failure was due Governor bearing failure, first indication was a huge yaw before N1 et al started winding down. Was my third engine failure in over 12000 hrs but didn't even get an indication before it all went pair shaped .....beer and smokes went down really well on recovery to camp......ha ha

[SASless]

Newfie....did the pedals not get some response when moved?

[newfieboy]

SAS
Bloody hell you sounding like TSB ha ha, matter of fact, no all happened so quickly that after the yaw and it all went quite just switched to autopilot and self preservation mode....guess it worked, wasn't paying too much attention to pedal inputs at that time, Merry Xmas and New Year mate.......Newfie.

[SASless]

All's well that ends well!

[Nubian]

JimL,

Did yo miss this in my post?

Now, how smart it is to fly over large bodies of (freezing) water without suits,dingy and floats are a different discussion, but that it's illegal is unlikely.

I still think he was in bad luck having an emergency just after being altering course further off shore...

[hueyracer]

It has been quiet common in the "old times" that-when an accident occur ed-other pilots were just rumouring about the technical aspects of this occurence.....


I really hate to see that most pilots turned into "pilot bashers", without even knowing what happened...

If the pilot did something wrong (and if he did-the investigation will find out)-yeah, blame him for that....

Until then-stop bashing........and focus on what happened....(and on what we KNOW...)...

It does not matter whether he needed to have a dinghi with him-it would not have prevented this accident (but maybe the outcome of it)......

[onesquaremetre]

Precisely hueyracer - the outcome!

The photos that have been released have the look of an entirely survivable ditching which naturally draws attention to the survival equipment. No-one can predict when their aircraft is going to encounter difficulties but if inadequate regulations permit it, there will always be those who, for either commercial or other reasons, choose not to take what would ordinarily be considered sensible precautions. For a journey such as this across wide, freezing channels at night, lifejackets and liferafts would surely be absolute musts.

There have been many discussions on pprune about whether regulation or training is more likely to prevent further tragedies, with many arguing against overly prohibitive rules and in favour of more training. That's understandable but when it comes to survival equipment, surely the regulations have to be designed for the lowest common denominator. Just like drivers with no seatbelt, there will always be those who think they know best.

[Grenville Fortescue]

It does not matter whether he needed to have a dinghi with him-it would not have prevented this accident

This statement seems a little short-sighted.

Who declared that fora such as these are exclusively for considering the cause of an accident. Airmanship is an equally if not more relevant point of discussion given that airmanship is the one factor within the pilot's field of response.

If this was a technical fault (which seems likely) then the pilot's response is where the only morsel of hope lay.

[hueyracer]

I totally agree to the point about taking life vests and maybe a dhingi (and we can discuss whether it would have been smart to take suits, too).......

Nevertheless: Do we KNOW that there have been no life vests on board?
Do we KNOW whether the pilot wanted to take them or left them behind (if available)?

Talking and discussing with professionals, the output should ALWAYS be "lessons learnt", not "found someone to blame"...

[Grenville Fortescue]

Your implication is that you seek to take on the role of adjudicator now insinuating that certain types of responses are associated with your definition of professionalism.

At which juncture of the posted conversations do you conclude (with certitude) that the poster has judged the pilot guilty?

I believe that anything which is likely to prompt a pilot (or crew) to take extra precaution as a result of reading this thread is a measure which reinforces safety and therefore, by association, professionalism also.

The apparent lack of survival equipment is an important consideration in this accident and if but one single helicopter crew somewhere in the world after reading this thread employ even one additional act of precaution (especially over icy waters) then the conversations herein have earned my respect and which in fact they already have.

[SASless]

I recall having a discussion about flying a single engined floatless helicopter over the Irish Sea one time (acutally it would have been twice....as it was planned to be a round trip).

My simple reply was "NO...Nope....Not me!".

It was done by someone else....but with a raft, suits, and life jackets aboard.

I don't swim nearly good enough with a helicopter strapped to my butt thus gladly give up those kinds of flights anymore.


Folks....every fatal crash needs to looked at, picked apart, studied, and discussed....to identify all the things that could have been done to avoid it happening and to find ways to mitigate those factors in the future.

It is not afixing "blame" but rather to embrace the right responses to mitigating risks while still accomplishing the tasks at hand.

If I ever died in a helicopter crash....I would want it to be no different. I would like to think in the end it was something besides my own doing that did me in but then don't we all.

These folks did not set out to wind up in the water that day.....but they did and they died as a result. If we do not seek the answers then all we do is write off two of our own for no good benefit. That would be the real tragedy in my view.

[TomAndreas-NOR]

@onesquaremetre

For a journey such as this across wide, freezing channels at night, lifejackets and liferafts would surely be absolute musts.

This happened in DAY VMC conditions. Can people please get their heads wrapped around the FACTS before posting? Please?

Tom

[onesquaremetre]

A thousand apologies Tom. I'm sure the water was much warmer with the scorching Baltic sun on it. :hmm:

[TomAndreas-NOR]

@onesquaremetre

I did not question the need for survival equipment, didn't really see why that should matter day vs night either. It's just that when the next guy reads the thread and picks up on this being a nightflight, he starts making assumtions about all kinds of other stuff. And then the ball starts rolling on this. It has previous been stated that this happened at night in crap weather, and it derailed the whole thread. So nothing personal, and no hard feelings.

[onesquaremetre]

Tom

It was my mistake which if I'd read the earlier posts in the thread more thoroughly I wouldn't have made.

Had it been after dark the air temperature would have been colder, reducing survival times further and there would have been less of a chance of the incident being visible to local surface vessels that might have rendered assistance, as was seen in the 225 ditching in the North Sea recently. With this accident though, it appears that the apparent absence of some items of survival equipment significantly outweighs any aggravating factors associated with a night ditching, hence my snappy response. Sorry.

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Thone1, thanks for clearing things up in your post on the previous page.

I appreciate the comments by JimL about making a risk assessment and by Grenville about the importance of encouraging precaution. I will admit that for me this accident has renewed my commitment to track coastal whenever possible in singles and to carry sufficient safety equipment on SE over water flights - I don't mind admitting it.

This accident has happened in the middle of an assessment I am doing between the Bell 407 and AS 350 B3 and I have to say that the comments on PPRuNe in recent months on servo-transparency and hydraulic failures, plus now the threat of t/r driveshaft failure have slightly blurred my objectivity in the report and so in the new year I need to bring this [objectivity] back into focus.

The client was already leaning towards the B3 - mainly because his kids (who are young) like the open-form cabin but I am honestly conflicted (especially when I think about his family) as to which is the safer helicopter to recommend.

I know the 350 has heaps of safe flying hours to its credit but I'm concerned that it also has one or two quirks which I don't yet fully understand and which I need to make myself familiar with.

Because I don't want to induce a thread drift anyone with any fact based comments between the two types (for European based operations onshore mid-altitude range mainly private flying) please feel free to PM me.

Thanks.

[Thone1]

@TomAndreas-NOR:

I´m with you, survival equipment is essential, prolonged flight over water in a single engine helicopter should be avoided whatever the outcome to this investigation, but people will speculate and things will get confused and messed up.

I firmly believe that the BFU will publish their findings as soon as they can, that these findings will be correct and that those who act responsibly will take correct actions with regards to flight over water anyway (like @SASless said).

Until then, be sure that the SAR boys and girls are there to look for you potential customers who like to push it.
The only thing that worries me is that most passengers will not have the insight that we have and therefor cannot distinguish between a responsible pilot and a risk-taker.
That´s were rules and regulations come into play and need to be amended if deemed necessary.

Tom

[rotorspeed]

Back to the cause. IF it was T/R driveshaft failure - and just that - anyone know, as SASless asked, whether you can maintain (lowish) altitude in a 350 given a failure when cruising at say 110kts plus? From distant recollection, the emergency procedure presumes one CAN land immediately, so should. Guess it's pretty hard to really simulate..... I suppose at a certain T/R pitch the effect on weather-cocking will be the equivalent of no spinning tail rotor, but it's surely an imprecise science. Any offers?

[Flyting]

"Failure in Forward flight
In forward flight reduce the power as much as possible and maintain forward speed (weathercock effect), select a suitable landing area for a steep approach at a power enabling a reasonably coordinated flight.

-On final approach, shut down the engine and make an autorotative landing at the lowest possible speed."

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Some queries -

What if the t/r driveshaft failure results in an overspeed. Can this be corrected manually with the fuel flow lever?

Based on Flyting's FM quote, you are going to be flying a low speed (sufficient to avoid weather cocking), you are going to be at the top end of a steep approach and then during the approach shut off the fuel!

Pray tell, how is one supposed to control yaw when selecting fuel off with low forward speed on final approach?

[[email protected]]

Thone 1 - define 'prolonged' - in this case the risk management is a case of 'how long is a piece of string'? since the emergency (whatever it was) could strike at any stage you are outside your ability to reach land (autorotative range?)

How far offshore do you have to go to consider that safety equipment is a good thing? Just how lucky do you feel?

Why on earth would you fly over cold water with no safety equipment? Better to take twice as long and follow the coastline.

[TomAndreas-NOR]

@Throne1

I hope you haven't got the idea that I don't care about survival equipment. In Norway the rules are pretty straightforward (however cleverly consealed in law jargon), if you can't reach land in autorotation, you need floats. If you need floats, you need lifejackets. If you need life jackets and the sea temp is forecast to be lower than 10C, you need suits. Is this the same for performance class 3 in Germany? I have no information on the emergency equipment brought on this flight, except they did not have floats.

I totally agree on what you are saying about the customer not being able to judge good airmanship from bad. It is a problem. Especially when the pilot that gets you to your destination through the piss poor weather is often deemed the "better" pilot by the customer. While the pilot who makes the decision to turn back or land is not "good enough". This is a mindset that is very detrimental to safe operations.

I see that many discussions here are held between individuals that are basically in agreement. It is hard to convey tone of voice through text alone, especially for me. So I hope I am not misunderstood.

Have a nice evening, and fly safe, always!

[rotorspeed]

So according to Flyting from the RFM, and lack of any other meaningful response, we still don't know in what conditions, if any, level flight can be maintained in a 350 with a T/R drive failure. Shame and surprising, given the huge number of hours that must have been flown on 350s worldwide. Maybe the reality is such a failure is virtually unheard of, apart from newfie's impressive experience, which was compounded by engine failure. Any further update on likely cause? Fuel cut off lever position might be interesting - to have such little damage after a T/R drive failure the engine must surely have not been delivering power.

[African Eagle]

Pray tell, how is one supposed to control yaw when selecting fuel off with low forward speed on final approach?

That's the thing, in a power-on t/r failure you can bring the aircraft in (usually on a shallow approach so I do know why Eurocopter ask for a steep approach) and when the aircraft begins to rotate (due to the lack of tail rotor control) you can cut the fuel to counteract the effect of the torque on the airframe. Performed well you can even manage a zero or slow forward speed touchdown (critical in some landing areas).

But to answer you question Anthony, the answer is - that I don't know! Sorry.

[SASless]

Am I wrong to think with a failed Tail Rotor drive shaft.....the tail rotor is not going to be providing any thrust as it is not going to be turning with any rapidity if at all. It might be wind milling a bit...but that isn't going to be of much use I should think.

Thus, my view is one is confronted with the procedure in the RFM that pertains to "Loss of Tail Rotor Drive"....which in most helicopters means an autorotative landing is the preferred technique.

My question still stands....."Can the 350 be flown to a suitable landing site without the Tail Rotor being driven by the MGB?".

Surely there are some 350 pilots out there that can give us the answer or at least quote from the RFM section that discusses that situation.

I cannot believe this is a bit of aeronautical mystery that remains unknown, unexplored, or is taboo to discussion.

[Nubian]

Sas,

Loss of t/r drive is a Land as soon as possible event. Not Land Immediately.

From my RFM (although for a B3):
3.3 Tail-rotor failures
3.3.1 Complete loss of tail rotor effectiveness
3.3.1.3 In Cruise flight:
1. Cyclic: Adjust to set IAS to Vy and control yaw
2. Collective: Reduce to avoid side-slip
Land as soon as possible

Approach and landing
On a suitable area for auto-rotative landing:
1. Twist-grip to IDLE detent
2.Carry out an auto-rotative landing as landing procedure.

Vy= 65kts at sea-level

It's been many years since I last flew a BA so I can't remember exactly, but I can't really think the procedure is much different as the main difference between the two is the engine.

[nigelh]

Firstly I am sure you can cruise for as long as you like at the power / collective setting that gives you the least side slip . I am guessing around 60 knots straight and level with low torque .
Secondly I have done simulated failures with what we considered to be neutral pedals ( lifting both feet off doesn't work as the blades naturally throw some pitch on so you have to push some opposite in )
If you do a shallow approach with wind off the R H side you can get right down to 20 kn or less before touch down . You can either grab for throttle ( 6 inch gap from collective ) or you could get the pax to pull it back when you say pull !!! This is all on BA so same for all 350 s except B3 and Mil .

[SASless]

Minimum side slip is for comfort mostly.....and controllability and structural loading as factors....but speed can vary if needed. Most of us are uncomfortable if side slip goes beyond what we normally experience in our day to day operations despite the aircraft being quite safe at large angles of slide slip.

[Anthony Supplebottom]

nigelh, this makes sense and is similar to what african eagle wrote - so why is the FM recommending a steep approach and to power off the engine before landing?

Does anyone know the different t/r fail procedure on the B3 and is this due to the FADEC?

[pilot and apprentice]

Can't you guys stopping speculating on the unknown or shall we remove the
first 'p' of PPRuNe?
Not posting often here, but really tired of reading
post from self-called professionals...
Keep the rumour mill turning, but for
god sake stop the speculation going a one way strret when we all know that most
of incident/accident are happening when more than one hole of the swiss cheese
align...:ugh:

Good day
Kami


You forgot about the "Ru" of PPRuNE.

And Shawn never said that hyd were the cause of this accident, but rather an issue with the 350, especially in cold weather.

It killed a very skilled pilot in Canada in one particular incident that I am aware of.

[pilot and apprentice]

Firstly I am sure you can cruise for as long as you like at the power /
collective setting that gives you the least side slip . I am guessing around 60
knots straight and level with low torque .
Secondly I have done simulated
failures with what we considered to be neutral pedals ( lifting both feet off
doesn't work as the blades naturally throw some pitch on so you have to push
some opposite in )
If you do a shallow approach with wind off the R H side
you can get right down to 20 kn or less before touch down . You can either grab
for throttle ( 6 inch gap from collective ) or you could get the pax to pull it
back when you say pull !!! This is all on BA so same for all 350 s except B3
and Mil .


Loss of drive is not fixed pitch neutral. The fact it is spinning at a high rpm keeps it aerodynamically active. LTE would be a closer approximation.

SAS, I do not have first person experience but have been told that a 350 was relatively flyable w/o t/r drive. As well, a friend of mine had a net take his out and landed in a cut block w/o additional damage.

From a theory perspective, on every sim session I attend, someone asks if continued flight is possible w/o t/r drive and invariably the technician explain that no manufacturer has data on it and they make a series of assumptions to program the model. Not something that can be simulated in a real a/c unless you are willing to put a hand grenade in the tail boom.

[nigelh]

Sorry , I don't believe the t/r does continue to spin and create thrust . Also it would actually be quite easy to put a t/r on a rig and blow wind over it etc to prove . Lets just accept you can fly without it !!
I am happy to demonstrate if someone has a 350 they want to risk .... I would want a runway to land on however !!
There are also incidents where people have flown after losing t/r drive .

[pilot and apprentice]

I should have explained better. I agree, without drive it would be stopped. I was talking about using neutral pitch as a simulation of loss of drive being inaccurate.

[mickjoebill]

I'm fully aware of the gasp reflex that occurs in cold water,
but still surprised that, having cleared the cabin, they were found just 50 ft from the aircraft :(

Mickjoebill

[heli-cal]

Without suits and a raft, clearing the cabin merely gave them the choice of dying in open water as opposed to the cabin of the sinking helicopter! :ugh:

[mickjoebill]

I once (and never again!) was in the rear seat of a media chopper that crossed a large body of European water, without raft, immersion suits or floats for a 20 min trip in summer.

The pilot discussed the emergency procedure of a controlled ditching where I was to jump out at say 20 feet and he would fly further on and then ditch. A reasonable option given the possibility of becomming tangled in video cables in the cabin. A couple of cameramen have become tangled in cables and kit and unable to make an exit when other occupants survived a ditching.

Maybe we'll never know if this crew didn't exit the cabin until it was inverted deep under water and they were already half drowned. Is the concept of jettisoning a passenger before settling in the water a good idea if there is no raft on board? especially if the cabin has (deriggable) monitors and other contraptions onboard?



Mickjoebill

[Arm out the window]

Makes sense to me.

I seem to remember the controlled ditching brief we used in Hueys was that we'd come to the low hover, let everyone but the captain jump out, who would then move a reasonable distance away, turn the force trim on and try to get it so the aircraft would move away to the left as he jumped out the other way.

Something like that, unless it's brain cells I've killed in the meantime, which is a good possibility.

[Good Vibs]

Do we all remember the TV series Magnum?
From island to island with a standard Hughes 500. No floats, vest,etc!
Millions watched this.

There are things one can do and not do....but you should always have a "way out"!

[SASless]

If we have decided the aircraft could have been flown with the Tail Rotor Drive Shaft failed....what else could have put them into the water?

[Anthony Supplebottom]

island to island with a standard Hughes 500. No floats,

Do you mean this Hughes 500?

http://magnum-mania.com/images/opening_credits_low_flying_chopper_full.jpg

[Good Vibs]

Yes, also.
But notice they never, as far as I could see, worn vest or had a dingy on board.


"Quote"
The show used several different Hughes 500-series choppers for filming (and a 369D early in the first season), each with a slightly different setup and look. The main differences were with regards to the tail and skids - T-tailed (500D), Y-tailed (500C), high skids (http://magnum-mania.com/images/1_8_f_full.jpg), short skids, skids with floats (http://magnum-mania.com/images/1_5_e_full.jpg), and gray and tan interiors were all used in various configurations. The T-tailed/short skid setup (the 500D) was by far the most commonly seen in the show.

[Grenville Fortescue]

If we have decided the aircraft could have been flown with the Tail Rotor Drive Shaft failed....what else could have put them into the water?

Hydraulic systems failure has already been suggested.

There's must be many more possibilities:

*MRGB failure
*Contaminated fuel
*Fuel Control Unit / FADEC

and other components.

[RVDT]

At the risk of making another mindless comment to join the rest...............:ugh:

Funny how nobody has made comment on the fact that the aircraft has no tailboom even attached to it.

This is obvious in the photo as it is laying in front of the aircraft.

[Anthony Supplebottom]

This is obvious in the photo as it is laying in front of the aircraft.


http://www.hl-live.de/aktuell/bilder/heli-12-2012.jpg

Tailbooms tend to come off the Squirrel fairly easily in autorotations.

Remember the KCAL Squirrel at Van Nuys a year or so ago?

http://media.trb.com/media/photo/2010-11/57583568.jpg

[nigelh]

DANGER !!! I would NOT follow the advice about the pic jumping out over water !!!!! It MAY have been done in special circumstances ..??
Is it just me ... But A). The only scenario of having to hover and drop off pax would be Main Xnsn chip ,....and even then I would carry on taxiing towards land rather than get wet B) knowing you are within min of running out of fuel .... Maybe but would prob still do same as A but with doors open .
What I would never ever do is try to climb out of the helicopter in flight as Pic !!
There would be a real danger of the aircraft coming down on top of you , or on top of your pax a few metres away . ( if they are much further away then there is the extra danger of you being split up ). To me it sounds daft when there are virtually no known successful ones done and masses of successful ditchings !!!!
Just let it settle in with minimum rrpm , shut off fuel and apply rotor brake sounds much safer to me :ugh:
Ps also a very controlled landing in many cases can give you something to sit on which floats ....that is the airframe which has not been crunched when it flips over with nobody at the controls ...... Think about it ......As always happy to learn from an expert .

[Flyting]

To be honest Anthony, I don't think anyone saw it.... I know I didn't

[Anthony Supplebottom]

I thought the tailboom was still attached until RVDT mentioned it. (Hence re-posting the photo). You can in fact see it (in the dark) in the foreground.

Regarding ditching I was going to say that once the blades contact the water it usually takes less than 5 seconds for even the most vigorous rpm to be stopped (from what I have seen) and just as I was thinking about that HeliHenri (like Zebedee) appeared with this thread: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/504009-video-350-crashing-into-water-copacabana.html

So, as long as pax are briefed on getting out of un upturned fuselage (your basic HUET training) they shouldn't really have to worry about blades.

I was taught that if you had to plow in and couldn't keep the aircraft upright you should lean the American helicopters to the right (to rip the transmission backwards away from the cabin) and the opposite for the Froggie aircraft. Is this still taught?

With all the ongoing AS350 incidents my poor B407 vs AS350B3 study is taking a battering - in my mind at least! :sad:

[SASless]

The Study should not take long....as given a choice of a 407 and 350....i know easily which one I would choose and do so on cost, cost of operation, and resale value....when you add Customer Support...it becomes a no brainer!

[Anthony Supplebottom]

You are right SAS but - as mentioned before, the client prefers the cabin layout of the 350 and is in an area with little 407 support but with good 350 support (as in service centres).

At the end of the day I must present a factual report and that's what I'm trying to achieve. The 350 (series) has far more flight time than the 407 - unless you throw the 206 pedigree behind it.

After I present the facts it will be the client who decides but yes, he has asked for a recommendation at the end of the study but I still don't have all the facts together (yet) but I soon will have. At least enough for this exercise.

[Flyting]

Interresting to see that video of the 350 going into the water...
The tail rotor kept spinning a little while after it hit the water and did not shred apart like we thought.
Glad to see it floated for a few seconds which would give one a little time to undo seat bealts and open doors to get out.

p.s. as with other fatal crashes discussed on PPRUNE, this has turned into a very interresting CRM discussion, which we can all learn from, irrelevant of the outcome of the cause of the crash.
In this case we will never know what the reasoning behind the flight over the water, but I'm sure lots of us will think twice about it from now on.

[Nubian]

what else could have put them into the water?

Maybe something like this: http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/recletters/2010/A-10-129-130.pdf

Either like in this accident, or fuel-lever accidentally been pulled to Idle Stop by a strap or similar...

Lots of possibilities I'm affraid...

[Thone1]

Crab,

I was away for a week, that´s why I can only now answer.

Prolonged in this case means within autorotative range.
If you fly along the coast, I´d not be further out than a hundred meters or so, to make sure that at least someone sees you going down. Swimming 100 m in the Baltic during winter in your normal clothes is a no go, but again, flying in itself is dangerous...

Having done my initial helicopter training @ DHFS, we were drilled not to fly over lakes, wooded areas and the like.
Annoying at times, but saving lives and probably lessons learnt the hard way.

Tom

[skadi]

The preliminary report of the german accident investigation authority is published ( only in german ):

http://www.bfu-web.de/DE/Publikationen/Bulletins/2012/Bulletin2012-12.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

No signs of hydraulic or engine problems, but the T/R driveshaft was damaged/ interrupted at the fwd flexcoupling just aft of the engine. The rest incl. the T/R itself was undamaged, even the soot on the blades was not washed away, which could lead to the conclusion, that the blades were not turning properly on impact. Fuel lever was in flightposition.
Also no life vests and no survival suits were found on board.

skadi

[Bell214B]

Thank you for the link

[TomAndreas-NOR]

@skadi

Does the report say anything about the radio transmissions during the emergency? My german is very rusty.

Tom

[skadi]

@ TomAndreas-NOR
The last transmission was hardly readable, several people including specialists of the university in Braunschweig tried to understand what the pilot said at last, but they came to different solutions:
hope we have a great xxx,
xxx xxx we are going stuck,
xxx xxx we are going south
I hope we have a break shaft
We are going down

skadi

[TomAndreas-NOR]

Thank you Skadi! Did it say how long it took for SAR-efforts to commence?

[skadi]

About half an hour after the last transmission ( 13:57 ) the RCC Glücksburg/Germany was informed by FIS and they checked the flightplan and all the airfields enroute together with RCC Copenhagen. There also was no ELT signal. An SAR-helicopters was scrambled at 16:45 and was on scene at 17:35 til late evening.

skadi

[Bell214B]

My understanding of German is far from perfect but good enough to understand the contents of this report.

I have checked every source available to me to find out if this type of tail rotor failure has happened before and I can't find any. If this has been a known problemarea surely Eurocopter would have issued a service bulletin, or an information letter at least, but I have found nothing.

I have informed all of our employees of the findings in this report and encouraged them to discuss it and make a "what to do" plan if it happens to them.

My experience in aviation which is +30 years has told me that there is no single failure that lead to an accident. Reading the report there are several factors that makes me believe that the pilot is way out of his "comfort zone".

Looking forward to the final report that hopefully will tell me why the "short shaft" failed.

[skadi]

The final report was just published, no T/R shaft failure, the engine was the problem:

http://www.bfu-web.de/EN/Publications/Investigation%20Report/2012/Report_12_CX024_Helicopter_Neustatt-Bay.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

skadi

[Jimny]

The final report was just published, no T/R shaft failure, the engine was the problem:

http://www.bfu-web.de/EN/Publication...ublicationFile

skadi

Cheers for the link, we're a couple guys who have been waiting almost 2 years to know what happened that day. Actually many of us have flown that very route from Lübeck to Sweden (with the Romanian operator which was considered as friend by most), but it was in a B1 or B2 with floats and survival gear (life raft and suits).

Large bodies of water are regularly crossed on those survey missions and one does wonder why a more powerful helicopter with floats wasn't used (obviously the price but this event has cost a lot more than money, leaving a least one widow and two orphants).

Does anybody what helicopter is being used today?