View Full Version : EUROPE quo vadis

5th Dec 2012, 20:09
What is going on in Europe?! SAS, Air Berlin,Cargolux, SN Brussels, Iberia and even the big ones like Lufthansa and AF/KLMare strugeling or are close to bankruptcy. Something is very wrong in the old continent….Or is the globalized world ill as such? Who are the competitors to this well established and more or less “union friendly” airlines? The Middle East comes to mind. Airlines like EK, EY or QR?? This carriers are subsidized by their states and their aim is to get market shares for whatever it will cost and money is not an issue here. They are subsidized and don’t have to care about how to make money and they also don´t have to worry about labor law and/or human rights. It´s modern slavery for the ones who decided to work there or just had no other choice in order to feed their families. So the question is: Is the European government watching their own industry going down the drain or will they establish some mechanism to protect their own economy like reducing slots for certain airlines which are subsidized by their state of registry??

Hellas!! Europe quo vadis?

flying lid
5th Dec 2012, 21:16
Discussed at length in this 27 page (up to now) interesting thread.


And it ain't just the aviation industry either.


6th Dec 2012, 09:35
I recently had to travel on buisiness from Germany to China.

Price of Business Class ticket Lufthansa: 4,100.-€
Price of Business Class ticket Ethiad: 2,200.-€


6th Dec 2012, 09:54
Amongst the Brussels policy-making community, there is a – shall we say – significant minority who hold the belief that Europe’s air travel needs can be catered for by the LoCos on short haul and non-European hub carriers for long haul.

This is not yet mainstream thinking in the corridors of power but it does influence decision-making.

Heathrow Harry
6th Dec 2012, 11:25
there are 50 countries in Europe containing circa 250mm people

historically at least half have had a significant international airline- this provided decent services for a lot of people at the other end of the line in what used to be the 3rd or second world. Because they were seen as "national champions" there was (and still is) a great reluctance to allow mergers or takeovers

Once the guys at the other end of the line started their own decent airlines (probably starting with SQ) the competition has become serious. The new airlines aren't lumbered with historic, First world cost bases nor work practices.

Because of the high costs the LCA's have started up in the legacy airlines back yard and run rings round them as people will always choose on cost if they are paying themselves

In the States airlines have been allowed to merge and go into Chapter 11 and they are protected by the Govt but even they have been in pain for a couple of decade

Probably only 3-4 of the main European airlines have a hope of long term survival- BA , LH, KLM/AF would be my guess

Hotel Tango
6th Dec 2012, 13:20
Because of the high costs the LCA's have started up in the legacy airlines back yard and run rings round them as people will always choose on cost if they are paying themselves

My bold.

Taking myself as an example I would dispute "always". For me it's a balance between cost, convenience and service product. I have never (and never will) fly Ryanair for instance no matter how cheap they might be.

Best foot forward
6th Dec 2012, 14:55
Had a trip to AMS not so long ago and it was a choice of a loco or a legacy carrier, the legacy was much cheaper more comfortable and much better service. No hassle with check in baggage, could take sports equipment free, allocated seat and a snack and drink at no extra cost. Shop around Locos are not always the cheapest.

Heathrow Harry
6th Dec 2012, 14:55
I agree that they are the least likely airline I would choose to book on but sometimes they go places no one else does

The history of the airline business over the last 25 years is littered with failures who thought that people would choose quality over price - it's very, very sad

Ryanair is capable of driving any airline off a route - its not some cunning plan or devious politics - they just charge less than the other guy