Do airlines still fly NDB approaches?

[michael36]

Have been wondering this question for a while, in the world of RNAV, ILS, RNP etc would an airline like QANTAS or even Jetstar or Tiger still fly an NDB approach on occasion?

[nitpicker330]

Mine has removed NDB's as an approved approach. All of the new a/c in the last 5 years haven't been fitted with ADF's anyway.

[missing link]

Not right Nitpicker........all Qlinks Q400's have NDB's in fact the last two sims included NDB approaches. So, yes NDB's still flown - for how much longer-? Who knows

[Shot Nancy]

What's a NDB approach?

[Piano Man]

The G1000 caravan we run has a fantastic setup inside, however doesn't come standard or has an ADF inside it. A sign of the times?

[greenslopes]

Yeh, every time I do renewal.......... Very relevant.....Not!

[Capt Claret]

What's a NDB approach?

What's an NDB? :oh:

[Flying Binghi]

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...All of the new a/c in the last 5 years haven't been fitted with ADF's anyway.

Looking that it wont be long before them old NDB's are needed agin.


Some weeks back terrorists sent a cheap little GPS guided drone (UAV/UAS) into Israel via the sea. The worlds most heavily defended airspace didn't see the drone until it were over land. Took two F16's and two expensive missiles plus a bit of scrambling of the GPS signal to destroy the terrorist drone...

All that trouble just because of one little Hezbollah drone. More to come.....:uhoh:





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[Capn Bloggs]

What's an NDB?
Perhaps you could explain to the masses what you do at AYE when the weather's a bit ****e??!! :E ;)

[Metro man]

Some airfields may have an ILS on the most used runway and a non precision approach onto the reciprocal for occasions when the tailwind component is in excess of limits.

An NDB approach being available together with an ADF in the aircraft may be useful to satisfy legal requirements when flight planning, but is unlikely to be used in anger. Most A320/B737 airports can at least provide a VOR approach.

I think I flew an NDB in the SIM a few years back but have never flown an actual one since coming off turboprops.

[morno]

These days with C145/146 GPS receivers, you don't even need an NDB to satisfy alternate requirements (in most cases).

morno

[nitpicker330]

Missing Link:--- what's not right with what I posted? In fact with regards to my Airline I am 100% correct. NDB's are no longer approved AND all new Airbus and Boeing's in the last 5 years ARE NOT FITTED WITH ADF's

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, I was referring to all new a/c in my fleet.

[Unusual-Attitude]

We are approved to, and frequently do fly GPS/GPS FMS based fully coupled NDB approaches.

[morno]

nitpicker,
How on earth are you meant to listen to the cricket then? :{

[Capn Bloggs]

For example - inbound to AYQ the GPWS fails - not allowed to do RNAV approach.
Say what?? Please explain?

Can still do NDB overlay approach using GPS in lieu of NDB, so you are technically still doing an NDB approach even without an ADF fitted to the aircraft.
Not sure I understand why a GPWS failure would preclude a published RNAV approach but still allow an overlay NDB?

[Capt Claret]

Perhaps you could explain to the masses what you do at AYE when the weather's a bit ****e??!! :E;)

Bloggs, Bloggs, Bloggs. Tongue. Cheek.

But seeing as you ask, RNAV-Z RWY13 or 31. :p

[waren9]

Can still do NDB overlay approach using GPS in lieu of NDB, so you are technically still doing an NDB approach even without an ADF fitted to the aircraft.

Well I gotta say thats a new one on me.

How do you fly an NDB approach without an ADF? To me, an "overlay" approach is where two different promulgated approaches share the same horizontal profile. If one aid or receiver fails, you might continue on the other if they are depicted on the same approach plate. Different minima may apply. NDB or VOR RWY36 at YBSU is one example.

Just because my jet can draw an inbound line and follow it without raw data available, I'm not aware of any reference that permits it. (Emergencies not withstanding)

[reynoldsno1]

Can still do NDB overlay approach using GPS in lieu of NDB, so you are technically still doing an NDB approach even without an ADF fitted to the aircraft.

I would have thought most regulators would require the underlying navaid (i.e the NDB) to be "actively monitored" during the approach in these circumstances ....

[Oriana]

QF B737-400 series aircraft are still not fitted with GPS

How uncivilised:{

[In_Transit]

The R16 ILS into YMML was down for maintenance a couple of times last week and due to the crappy weather quite a few ndb approaches were done.

[C441]

The R16 ILS into YMML was down for maintenance a couple of times last week and due to the crappy weather quite a few ndb approaches were done.
Yep, the last NDB approach I flew in anger was on 16 in a 767 in similar conditions in the mid-90's.

A recent A-380 sim involved an NDB approach, although compared to the mid-90's version the only the only thing remotely similar was that the NDB indication had to be observed to confirm the accurate tracking of the GPS based nav system....hardly NDB tracking.

[nitpicker330]

As far as I'm aware you cannot do an NDB approach using your Aircraft's area Nav without the actual NDB. ( except emergencies!! )

Yes having no ADF's makes listening to radio stations a bit difficult but at least we still have HF to hear Radio Australia for the news and Grandstand :ok:

[Trent 972]

Yes you can

http://www.pprune.org/7552720-post15.html

An aircraft operated by Qantas under I.F.R. may use an RNP-capable RNAV system in accordance with these instructions as a non-precision approach I.F.R. radio navigation aid for a published non-precision approach procedure, including a related missed approach procedure.

[Capn Bloggs]

Bloggs, Bloggs, Bloggs. Tongue. Cheek.

But seeing as you ask, RNAV-Z RWY13 or 31. :p
Glad to see you and all your effos are rated on RNPs, Clarrie! :}

[greenslopes]

overlay approaches are capable of being done provided the correct RNP is entered, this provides the same sort of tolerance as other gnss approaches.
More importantly is the loss of 'Cricket freq'!

[training wheels]

The NDB at Denpasar Bali has been U/S for over a year and no-one has complained. Now it's officially decomissioned. A sign of the time I guess when hardly any operator uses NDB approaches any more. BTW, do Qantas still require pilots to have and NDB endorsement on their MECIR rating?

[Check Airman]

At my airline (US regional) we are not allowed to accept NDB approaches. All airplanes have ADF's though (thankfully).

[clear to land]

It's been a long time since we took delivery of an ADF equipped 777, it's been a customer 'option' from Boeing for years now.

[ChaseIt]

The G1000 caravan we run has a fantastic setup inside, however doesn't come standard or has an ADF inside it. A sign of the times?

I'm flying around the Same kit up north, Although we have the two 146a's we still have an ADF fitted and its always good for a back up / practice!

[nitpicker330]

Yeah, sounds logical that you could do it but I think my mob say no "we can't" do it.

Anyway it's irrelevant as there is always an RNAV to shoot.

[Gate_15L]

If a home-made GPS guided UAV was ever detected heading towards a US city I don't think it would take very many milliseconds before the whole GPS network was shutdown. Mr President probably has a button for that in his briefcase.

US Presidential Policy on GPS is for active local denial of GPS signals for Hostile forces within the battle zone, without disrupting civilian and commercial uses.

GPS.gov: United States Policy (http://www.gps.gov/policy/)

It was also Presidential mandate that Selectivity Availability will never again be implemented into the GPS system and the new Block IIF satellites now launched come without the equipment required to implement S.A.

The US realises how dependent the world is on GPS. Don't forget the precipitating event making GPS available for civilian uses was the KAL007 shoot down.

[Jack Ranga]

Think overlay in this case refers tuning & flying an NDB approach and setting up the GPS for the outbound and inbound tracks on the OBS. In fact you could fly a NDB approach without the ADF and call it an overlay.

[Chimbu chuckles]

No Jack, it doesn't.

It refers to pulling the xyz NDB approach out of the arrivals page of the FMC and flying it in LNAV/VNAV with no reference to the underlying terrestrial aid whatsoever - as long as the actual NDB App has not been withdrawn. The NDB doesn't need to be serviceable and the aircraft doesn't need to be fitted with ADFs. And we still have ADF on our IRs and still tick ADF on the navaid part of the flight plan.

As outlined in the CASA approval.

Why you actually would with an RNP AR U or P available remains a mystery.:ok:

[haughtney1]

Why you actually would with an RNP AR U or P available remains a mystery

Mayby if you had to one night...into a stormy tropical destination...:E

[HF3000]

You would if you were flying into a runway without a published RNAV-AR or RNAV-GNSS approach... such as the MEL 16 Twin NDB I mentioned (which has now been remedied). There may still be some airports available for diversions or emergency that do not have published RNAV approaches - I haven't checked lately.

QF have a CASA instrument allowing RNAV overlay approaches of NDB or VOR approaches without the navaids being serviceable or even installed on the aircraft. Doing this requires a CASA approval, which QF has (for it's GPS enabled aircraft).

Interestingly enough, as I indicated earlier, QF requires GPWS for RNAV-AR and RNAV-GNSS, but they do not require GPWS for NDB overlay approaches. GPWS doesn't fail every day but that's just an obscure example.

[frigatebird]

Don't know about the latest jet airline equipage, but it seems the Air Force still use them. A Hercules did a practise one followed by a go-round from 50 feet and a low level departure here yesterday (in fine weather). Get the C-17's over the house at about 800 feet, when they are executing the practise miss on occasion. Be a shame if our NDB is ever decommisioned.

[missing link]

Nitpicker..........Yes, you should have made that point clear.......there are more airlines out there than yours...........maybe if you pulled your head out of your----you would notice a few things. And er...wrong again on your second point....Really? and they let you fly.....god help us!

[Keg]

BTW, do Qantas still require pilots to have and NDB endorsement on their MECIR rating?

Training wheels, yes. That said, I'm not sure what they do on the A380.

[Jack Ranga]

Sorry Chuck, getting involved in a conversation I'm not qualified to comment on :E

The overlays I was thinking of was actually flying the NDB approach with the ADF but setting up the mighty 430 to the NDB and using it for the lateral tracking. Works bloody well but not quite approved I don't think!

Mayby if you had to one night...into a stormy tropical destination...

You got 'island reserve' for that haven't ya??

[Capt Fathom]

I'm not sure what they do on the A380

Keg.

Reading post #24 may clear that up!

[Keg]

Fair enough. Didn't even realise the thing came fitted with an NDB. I know a few of the A330s didn't which caused a few issues when first operating into DPS WRT alternate fuel when there was could below the LSALT of about 10,000'.

[Trent 972]

Fair enough. Didn't even realise the thing came fitted with an NDB.
No NDB's fitted to QF A380's Keg.
BUT it does have an ADF fitted. :E

[Keg]

Lol. Everyone's a smart alec today!

[Flying Binghi]

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extract via Gate 15L #34;

US Presidential Policy on GPS is for active local denial of GPS signals for Hostile forces within the battle zone, without disrupting civilian and commercial uses...



Well Gate 15L, "the active local denial of GPS signals" appears to have worked in the recent Hezbollah GPS guided drone (UAV/UAS) flight into Israel... plus a couple of F16's fireing missles helped. The big problem seems to have been that the worlds best air defence system didn't see the drone until it flew over land. I'm sure Hezbollah noted the very expensive problems their cheap little drone caused so we can expect more - lots more, anywhere on the planet including Australia. What will we do in Australia when the GPS guided drones start flying in over the coast......


Of note for what to expect in future drone attacks anywhere on the planet - it appears there were no earth link or mobile phone link for the drone attack and they still dont know the launch site - the drone just wandered in from the sea following a pre-programmed GPS provided flight path.

Further note - During the recent Hamas Israely shin-ding the Israely's took out eight known Hamas drone assembly facilitys before the drones were used. The Israely's believe the destroyed Hamas drones were a mixture of surveillance and attack drones.


GPS - the best tool for terrorists ever invented...








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[Jack Ranga]

Gees Binghi, thanks for that! Dunno what we'd do without ya :ok:

[romeocharlie]

Had to do the RWY 16 NDB in anger, in Melbourne about 3 weeks ago - ILS was out, 27 was out and the poor old 73-300's don't have a GPS we can use for RNAV approaches. To answer the question, yes it still happens.