Too many SO's at CX?

[pilotchute]

Apparently Cathay have too many SO's now and only local ab initio's will be trained in 2013-14. Funny because I was told the opposite in HK a couple of months ago for my interview.

Is this a move to a locals only airline or does FTA have a training capacity problem? I mention these because I really find it hard to beleive that you have an oversupply of SO's at Cathay. If someone would like to correct me I will happily go back in my box.

Didn't post this in the Wannabe section because I don't think anyone there would know the answer.

[Flaps10]

First time I've ever seen 8 pages of S/O's on the aircrew seniority list. The list usually sits at 6 pages.

[flapsupdown]

I wouldn't say there is an "oversupply" of SOs but it looks like there is a sufficient number of them. I think what you were told a few months ago was based on the prediction of Cathay's need for SOs in the near future - an incorrect prediction obviously.

I highly doubt Cathay wants an all local airline. I think as far as they are concerned, it doesn't matter where you are from as long as you are on the local package. As for why they are only taking in local ab-initio - my best guess is it's easier to deal with in terms of Visas and also since the 14 month training period is no longer seen as an issue as there is no need for SOs to join sooner rather than later.

[pacific blues]

Might be an oversupply on specific fleets. The majority of Oz flights are still being crewed with 1 Capt and 2 FO's.

[ixg888]

impossible.. with the number of promotion that are getting did and the number of aircraft orders its going to be a lack.

[Cpt. Underpants]

impossible.. with the number of promotion that are getting did and the number of aircraft orders its going to be a lack.

Proof positive that drugs and the Internet are not mutually compatible.

[The Kelpie]

Apparently Cathay have too many SO's now and only local ab initio's will be trained in 2013-14. Funny because I was told the opposite in HK a couple of months ago for my interview.

Is this a move to a locals only airline or does FTA have a training capacity problem? I mention these because I really find it hard to beleive that you have an oversupply of SO's at Cathay. If someone would like to correct me I will happily go back in my box.

Didn't post this in the Wannabe section because I don't think anyone there would know the answer.

Not an FTA capacity problem as far as I understand it.

CX are retiring their 747 fleet and they are retrenching the 747 drivers onto the other fleets, which takes up available sim space and CX training capacity. Hence no room for any cadets for a while.

I understand that a initio courses will continue as these will not spit out of FTA for 12 months or so by which time the sim availability will have eased. It is the Advanced entry and transition courses (the shorter term ones) that are on hold.

This has not I understand been driven by FTA at all and I expect it has left them with a huge hole on their order book.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[broadband circuit]

It is the Advanced entry and transition courses (the shorter term ones) that are on hold.

They wouldn't be having trouble attracting quality applicants would they?????

[FR8R H8R]

I don't think you can ever have enough kids making the bunks and eating sandwiches. It's the wave of the future.

[ron burgandy]

Or working out how to avoid that island on the weather radar, while you're having a really relaxing rest in the bunk…..:D

[Captain Dart]

...or flying into that weather because the radar tilt wasn't right and tipping you out of the bunk...

[ETOPS240]

FR8R H8R - spoken like the truly embittered. Why are you here? Shouldn't you be off enjoying your (early) retirement?

Dart & Ron - definitely must be the SO at fault here. After all, he's completely alone up front.

[betpump5]

Etops quite right. They have become senile confused old fools. In one post they have reduced the SO to a mere sandwich eating bunk making operator, and now the SO is promoted to the one making all the decisions.

Reminds me of CRM - who is flying the plane! Hopefully not our long sleeved colleagues.

[flyber]

With the SO pool being 'flooded', any idea as to what will happen to those non hkid ab initio who were in the interview process before the immigration ruling early this year and have been on a waiting pool?

[FR8R H8R]

Personally, ETOPS, I plan to work until 70 if the CAD lets me. No early retirement, but thanks for looking out for me.

[G-IZMO]

There are also guys out there interested in the SO position who are (somewhat) experienced, operating medium sized biz jets from the left seat, avoiding flying into these islands, and airfields surrounded by mountains, who would love the opportunity to sit in a wide-body. Just a shame that everywhere people turn for development, there seems always to be a policy decision that says "at least another year wait for you chap" unless you already fly an Airbus.

G

[nitpicker330]

Yes that's all fine and dandy until you need to actually live in HK and raise a family, then it ain't roses anymore!!:D

[cxorcist]

SJS trumps all logic and good common sense. Airlines, especially CX, know this and exploit it to the max. Pimple faced teenagers are literally what I am seeing on the induction courses. Sorry, but there is no way those guys have flying experience unless they started at 12. Many in CX thought we had it bad when the company started hiring RJ CNs as FFOs. Now, CX hires guys who are not even qualified to be RJ FOs as SOs. I suppose the good news is that the standards cannot get any lower, but only because you can't go any lower from here.

[Captain Dart]

...and the shiny jets ain't so shiny after six months in the filthy South China air.

[bm330]

There may be a small speed bump in the road right now but there will be lots of room for pimple faced teenagers at Cathay. As soon as theses kids see the right seat, it'll be see ya' later HKG.

The accountants have turned Cathay into a training mill, regardless of the observations and objections of Flights Ops. Sleeping in a bunk bed, sharing a 800 sqft flat only lasts for so long. As soon as the 'forgivable loan' handcuffs are off, so are they.

[SMOC]

As soon as theses kids see the right seat, it'll be see ya' later HKG

The short course guys should leave however for the long course guys/girls if they want command in the future they will have to join an airline that accepts virtually all P1U/S towards command time, as they will only have 50hrs P1 in their log books.

Ie if an airline says you need min 300 P1 plus 1200 P1U/S (1500) before starting a command course I'm afraid they're off to fly 250hrs at their own expense.:}

So many of the lazy z gen won't actually leave as they will hang around for command but then the seniority handcuffs will have taken hold.

[Tornado Ali]

If we don't support them getting proper conditions they will soon be our conditions. Have we learned nothing?

[Trafalgar]

Improving their conditions should b a priority for the AOA. in particular d
Full housing. This will come back to haunt us if we don't sort this out

[Maid Day]

The majority of airline and corporate pilots in the USA are retiring in the next 5-7 years. Over 50,000 retirements. All the flight schools are training pilots who are from overseas and intend to return to non-American airlines. We've talked this story for years and years, but finally there will be pressure to attract qualified pilots. For once we can order our eggs sunny side up. CX will simply pay what they have to, as with all airlines. The seniority list system of airlines is the only drawback to the overall picture. Bottom line, nationality likely won't play an issue in hiring for airlines in need of crew, and quality of lifestyle and stability of the airline will be the two major factors pilots factor when making their career moves.

[ChinaBeached]

Those who accepted the terms & conditions for the iCadet / C-Scale package deserve no sympathy. They went in knowing full well of what they were agreeing to, and if they didn't then the old saying "A fool and his money are easily parted" rings a bell.

To call on the AOA to improve their conditions is insulting to those of us who did the right thing and turned the job down while the AOA did little or nothing but some lame words in their updates. The AOA sat back and allowed this to happen because it didn't affect their own remuneration. Could they of done something (anything?) that would affect change? Who knows? Because they did absolutely no identifying action anywhere.

Those who signed up for and thus condoned C-Scale have no right to demand more than what they asked for.

As per the predicted recruitment drive in the US, C-Scale could raise and show it's true ramifications. If not now then eventually it will. But please don't ask for sympathy or more than what they asked or agreed to. I find it extremely arrogant to so severely undermine the industry and then seek those conditions that they forwent that were the backbone or premise of the entire job they begged for, all at the expense of others who stood against it.

[tuck]

Funny China, I can remember when "A" scalers used the same argument about "B" scale. Indeed a fool and his money, unfortunately the accountants may not be the fools we perceive them to be, just us, the idiots distracted by bright shiny offerings. Whilst we eat our young it will never change.

[SMOC]

Did you join on A scale china?

[geh065]

Those who accepted the terms & conditions for the iCadet / C-Scale package deserve no sympathy. They went in knowing full well of what they were agreeing to, and if they didn't then the old saying "A fool and his money are easily parted" rings a bell.

Did we not all join knowing and accepting terms and conditions? I guess none of us deserve sympathy and why bother to strive for better T&Cs? We all knew what we were in for right?

[ChinaBeached]

I agree with your point that nothing can change whenever we continue to eat our young, as you put it tuck. But to answer the same question asked of me many many times (go back & read previous posts): I was offered a position on B-Scale. That was the contract that but for a scarce few pilots on CX that by far the overwhelming majority were on. B-Scale did not represent a severe lowering of recruitment standards to kids with zero hours, zero credentials & zero experience. B-Scale did not enslave me to a bonded contract. B-Scale permitted me to earn an income that responsibly offered long term financial security as remuneration for the professional standards CX once sought in their recruited pilots.

Geh: I get your point, of course. But to deliberately & knowingly undercut the market value so dramatically & hence get the job only by doing so & then trying to demand those terms & conditions that were deliberately forgone later shows zero integrity. Would these zero hour wonders stand a chance against pilots with many thousands of hours experience, with further credentials & multi engine (jet, turbine or light twin) Cmd time as we're those who interviewed with me? No. They were successful because all but one of us turned it down as I'm lead to believe. They chose to undercut the market & now want what they turned down which is the only real reason they were ever able to interview?

But like you I too see the issues. Guys I know at CX are staunch (almost red left wingers) union guys who by the way joined during the recruitment ban.

I find it wrong to undermine the market to get the job to then seek those exact same terms & conditions that were turned down once in.

[geh065]

Of course it is frustrating and I realise that in the big picture it all looks very simplistic. However you can't really criticise a young lad who perhaps has always wanted to fly an airliner and has always looked up to airlines like Cathay thinking 'one day, that will be me up there'.
A great opportunity (You can't deny that it isn't) for them comes along and yes the pay isn't as good as the senior pilots but that realistically isn't going to stop the ones who truly want to be pilots. Remember these people are fresh and enthusiatic. They don't see it all with the jaded view that we have. They don't know the complexities of contracts and who is on what exactly or the feeling amongst the rest of us towards the C scale. They see it as a dream come true and one of the few airlines in the world who will pay for their training and give them a lump sum of money at date of join. Honestly, can you blame them for joining?

If anything, blame the system. Blame us for not doing more to stop it happening but you can't blame the starry eyed pimply faced youngsters for taking the opportunity given to them.

[tuck]

But "B" scale was a severe lowering of the conditions. It was just that at the time we accepted what was on offer. We had heard, read and seen what the life of a Cathay pilot was like, and although the remuneration was less we got swept up in the dream. We were more than qualified and had we gone somewhere else we no doubt would have been in a better position now.
Now, "C" scale candidates have been swept along also, they can rationalize that the terms and conditions whilst far from perfect give them their shot at the Cathay dream, however like most "B" scalers the reality will set in after they have committed themselves to Hong Kong and extricating themselves becomes far too difficult. They will have sold their spouses on the dream and pride/stubbornness/embarrassment will blinker their ability to make a rational decision to run.
The spin Doctors and Accountants have solved yet another dilemma for the Company, whilst we all stand aghast at the arrogance, somewhere we acknowledge their ability to sell the un sellable. And hopefully from afar, if you are lucky will marvel at their next abhorrent pilot marketing tool.