JAA license in the US

[Air Bus Driver]

Hi all!

I was furloughed by a major airline here in Europe a couple months ago, and haven't been able to find a new job since. I've got a JAA CPL/IR with "frozen" ATPL, 1200hrs TT of which 1000hrs on A320. As I am a dual citizen, and own an American passport, I am now considering moving to the States, to try my luck there.

Is it possible to convert my JAA license to an FAA, or do I have to take all the checkrides again in the US? If latter's the case, has anyone done this already or knows a good and reasonably priced place that offers such courses for experienced pilots?

How do you reckon my chances to find something in the US?

Appreciate any replies! ABD

[regional guy]

Air Bus Driver,

Converting from JAA to FAA should not be much of a problem. As far as I know, and I'm NOT an expert on this by far, you have to do the commercial and instrument written test, and a check-ride, but I may be wrong. Check the FAA.GOV site, look under Part 61 in the regulations. You should find info regarding converting there.
With your hours and experience, you should be able to find something over here, no doubt.

[C4]

You have to do it all again.. But only one exam and then the checkride.. Been there done that got the ticket.. Happy studying!!!

[Air Bus Driver]

Thanks for the replies, guys!!!

C4:
What do you mean by "only one exam"? Just one exam plus checkride to get my "frozen" ATPL or to get the CPL/IR? Do you mind sharing, at which flight school you did this, how long it took ya and how much it $$$? And most importantly, would you do it again? Thanks!!!

[mutt]

ABD

The FAA system only has CPL's and ATPL's, there is no such thing as a "Frozen ATPL". With 1200 hours you do not satisfy the requirements for the ATPL and would therefore only be allowed to obtain a CPL.

I believe that you would then be required to add your "ratings" on to the basic CPL, these would include the Multi Rating, Instrument Rating and even the A320.

Check out Flying or Pilot magazine for the CPL schools and check out the back of Flight for at least one school that offers type ratings for people with experience on the aircraft.

Finally, you have to ask yourself is it worth it, what sort of aircraft will you end up flying with 1200 hours? Would you be better off staying in Europe? Why do you think that the employment situation is any better in the USA?

Good Luck.

Mutt

[Air Bus Driver]

Yeah, I realize that the job situation in the US isn't that great either, at the moment! I'm just trying to weigh my options...

I flew for Swissair for almost 2 years, got laid off last fall, when SR was grounded, and have been seeking a job in Europe and the Middle East since. For the new Airline "Swiss", merger of what was left of SR with the regional carrier Crossair, the laid off SR F/Os had to undergo a very arbitrary selection process and a large amount wasn't accepted! The reason being apparently, that we were "emotionally too connected to SR"! Well, I wonder what's with the 850+ SR pilots flying for Swiss now?...

Anyway, so with no major perspective in Switzerland, a fairly small amount of jobs in Europe and the problem that Switzerland doesn't belong to the EU, which means you can't just go work anywhere in Europe, I am just starting to wonder, if in the long term I might have better perspectives in the US?


Cheers, ABD

[411A]

ABD,

If I were you I would be knocking on the door of Jet Blue...they seem to be doing quite well now...and have a bright future. Very good management.

Convert your license ASAP.

Good luck to you....the future belongs to those that are willing to move where the job is, instead of just moaning about the current situation.

[weasil]

Sec. 61.153

Eligibility requirements: General.

To be eligible for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must:
(a) Be at least 23 years of age;
(b) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant's pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft;
(c) Be of good moral character;
(d) Meet at least one of the following requirements:
(1) Hold at least a commercial pilot certificate and an instrument rating;
(2) Meet the military experience requirements under Sec. 61.73 of this part to qualify for a commercial pilot certificate, and an instrument rating if the person is a rated military pilot or former rated military pilot of an Armed Force of the United States; or
(3) Hold either a foreign airline transport pilot or foreign commercial pilot license and an instrument rating, without limitations issued by a contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation.
(e) Meet the aeronautical experience requirements of this subpart that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought before applying for the practical test;
(f) Pass a knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas of Sec. 61.155(c) of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought;
(g) Pass the practical test on the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.157(e) of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought; and
(h) Comply with the sections of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought.



This means that you can apply straight for an ATP if you have a foreign commercial and instrument. OR if you want to just get a commercial then you can be issued a Private for nothing and just take a commercial checkride and written exam.

However... you must have 1500hrs to apply for the ATP or 1200 and at least 600 hrs of second in command time as well.

[Air Bus Driver]

411A:
Just checked out the website of JetBlue! Looks quite interesting, although with my hours I'm not quite sure I'm eligable yet... But thanks for the tip! As far as the relocating goes: exactly my point of view! In times like these, you can't just wait for the job to come to you...


weasil:
Wow! Thanks for that reply!!! One thing I don't quite understand in your answer though, is the amount of hours required for the ATPL. The 1500hrs are TT correct? At least that's what's required for the JAA ATPL. Or is it 1500hrs PIC for an FAA ATPL? But what's with the 1200/600? Does that mean 1200TT of which 600PIC and 600SIC, or 1200PIC plus 600SIC?


Appreciate your help, guys!!! ABD

[Cakov]

ABD...

I'm in just the same position... 1000hrs TT, frozen JAA ATPL, 737 rating, and laid off by a major carrier in the UK.

I'm also looking into moving to the States, as I have a green card, and had just the same queries as you.

Coincidentally, I grew up in Zurich and spent the last 20 years there - almost ended up with Swissair, too. Looks like I would have been chopped no matter where I ended up!

Thanks for all the help on US licensing, and good luck with applications!

[George Semel]

Getting a US certificate is not that big an issue, just a written and a flight check. Hell they give you a Private Pilot Certificate just for the asking. Of course its only good as long as your License that it was issued on the basis off is valid.

Now for the guy who dose not think he is qualified to apply to jet blue, since you have time in the kind of airplanes Jet Blue flies, send a resume, you are only talking about some postage or a fax for godsakes. Never shoot yourselve down on applying for a job. If they don't offer you an interview, what have you lost? Nothing! Let them say no, you just go and apply. You know if they really need guys with time in type and if there is a short fall of guys, you may end up with a job. Give yourselve a shot. Send them a resume, you may be surprised.

I never understood that you can have a Frozen ATPL, here in the States, you have to have the flight time in the logbook before you can take the Checkride. Its just a funny way of doing things, maybe its just a europe thing.

[Air Bus Driver]

George, thanks for the motivation shove!!! I will send them my CV ASAP! If I succeed, you will be the first person I owe a beer :)

Small amendment to the "frozen" ATPL in Europe: Having a frozen ATPL basically just means, that you've passed the ATP written test. A checkride is required at 1500hrs aswell, for you to get the ATPL! The difference compared to the US is just, that in Europe, with 1500hrs, generally you're already employed by an airline, and the recurrent simulator check is recognized as ATPL checkride aswell... (at least that's the way it's in Switzerland)

Cheers, ABD

[weasil]

You are right. The so called Frozen ATP also exists in Australia, Canada and the USA. You can take the written test anytime. You just can't take the flight test unless you meet the minimum aeronautical experience requirements.

_________________________

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:
(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.
(2) 100 hours of night flight time.
(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:
(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(3)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.
(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.
(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least--
(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.
(5) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(b) A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section; however, not more than 25 hours of night flight time may be credited in this manner.
(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane--
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;
(ii) Engaged in operations under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or
(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.
(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the time--
(i) Is acquired in an airplane required to have a flight engineer by the airplane's flight manual or type certificate;
(ii) Is acquired while engaged in operations under part 121 of this chapter for which a flight engineer is required;
(iii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a pilot training program approved under part 121 of this chapter; and
(iv) Does not exceed more than 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.
(d) An applicant may be issued an airline transport pilot certificate with the endorsement, "Holder does not meet the pilot in command aeronautical experience requirements of ICAO," as prescribed by Article 39 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, if the applicant:
(1) Credits second-in-command or flight-engineer time under paragraph (c) of this section toward the 1,500 hours total flight time requirement of paragraph (a) of this section;
(2) Does not have at least 1,200 hours of flight time as a pilot, including no more than 50 percent of his or her second-in-command time and none of his or her flight-engineer time; and
(3) Otherwise meets the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section.
(e) When the applicant specified in paragraph (d) of this section presents satisfactory evidence of the accumulation of 1,200 hours of flight time as a pilot including no more than 50 percent of his or her second-in-command flight time and none of his or her flight-engineer time, the applicant is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the endorsement prescribed in that paragraph.

[George Semel]

You are welcome Air Bus. Thanks for clearing up the Frozen ATPL for me. Went I did mine some 22 years ago, you could not even take the written till you had the mininum flight times in your logbook and then an FAA inspector, had to verfy your log and then give you written permission to take the written. Things have changed here since then, I don't think you need even an endorsment from a flight instructor or any thing else. You use to be able to get the ATP vfr for helicopters and that included a type rating in the helicopter you took it in. Lot of guys around with ATP Rotorcraft Helicopter limited to VFR typed in R-22's 300C and Bell 47's. Now the FAA will only issue one with no restrictions and no type ratings for helicopter that weigh less than 12,500 lbs . I mostly fly Helicotpers these days. Airplanes just don't do it for me any more. Small differences in the way things are done in Europe vs. the United States. What were you Swiss Air? Same on what happened to them. Airlines like Oil is either boom or bust. If seen seven Busts in Aviation since I started flying, this one is not all that bad. Hang tough, things will pick up for you soon.

[Air Bus Driver]

Thanks a lot for all your help guys, I really appreciate it!!!

I've begun contacting US flight schools, to find out if they offer any courses for people like me... If anyone has any suggestions/exprience of a specific school, please let me know:)

Cheers! ABD

[ironbutt57]

The U.S. version of the "frozen ATPL" is all the aeronautical experience qualifications...except the age requirement..you can complete the written exam and the ATP practical exam (checkride) at 21 years of age, and recieve your ATP certificate on your 23rd birthday..with your total time...good luck...it can happen right place...right time..
hope it works out for you....hope all the furloughed Americans who EARNED their airline jobs are afforded the same opportunities in your country.....cheers

[Tinstaafl]

The ATP exam is easy. You can self study for it using one or two reference books, one by Gleim & the other by Jeppesen (I think). All questions in the exam question bank are in the public domain, as are the answer options.

The only thing that isn't available is the FAA's version of which is the correct option. That's where Gleim et al. make their $$$. These books contain the entire question bank + answer options + which is the correct one & why.

The flight test isn't too bad either. It has two parts: a ground 'grilling' & the flight itself.

I found the ground part the most difficult when I converted an Oz ATPL to the USA ATP-MEL. Mostly because I wasn't terribly familiar with the FAA's rules & regs and general USA operating practices. It's an easy trap to answer the examiner's questions using your foreign licence knowledge base/experience instead of the still tottery American ones!

Otherwise the flight test is just like an instrument rating test - the certificate includes IFR privileges. You'll do stalls/steep turns/unusual attitudes etc + 4 approaches - two precision, two non-precision. Engine failures too, of course.

The precision approach tolerance is no more than quarter scale deflection (even during asymmetrics I seem to recall. It was over 5 yrs ago I did it).

Everything that is expected of you is published in the FAA's 'Practical Test Standard' published for the ATP.

If you don't meet the experience requirements for an ATP then you'll have to go down the FAA CPL route:

CPL exam + flight test, IR exam + flight test and eventually ATP exam + flight test.

Each certificate ie ATP, Commercial, Private is specific to the class of a/c in which you did the test: Multi-engine land, multi-engine sea, s/e land, s/e sea, rotorcraft etc etc. To get another class on your 'licence' requires another flight test to the standard of whatever certificate level you would like privileges. You would then hold two certificates.

For example, in my case with an Oz ATPL valid for m/e & s/e + IR valid for both: I did my ATP test in a multi so am only authorised to exercise US ATP privileges in a m/e land a/c. I'm not authorised to fly any s/e aircraft or m/e floats/floating hull types. To fly a s/e type I would have to go for a flight test at PPL, CPL or ATP level and then would only be able to exercise the privileges of that particular certificate in a single.

BTW, all FAA flight tests include an oral section, unlike the UK where they seem to consider the theory exams to be adequate.

[mutt]

Ironbutt,

I love your statement.... hope it works out for you....hope all the furloughed Americans who EARNED their airline jobs are afforded the same opportunities in your country.....cheers

Are you still an expat taking a Bahrani's job?


Mutt :)