UK to Australia by PA28

[Aussie Andy]

I may have a once in a lifetime window of opportunity to fly myself home from UK to Australia in my own aircraft, a PA28 Cherokee C.

Maybe a crazy idea, but I know it can be done ref. Poly Vacher's epic round-the-world flights in her Dakota. And guys like this who've done it in Microlights: The Route (http://www.soloflightglobal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=53)

So I am looking to get in touch with people who have done it, can advise on things like ferry tanks, etc

Andy

[jecuk]

I know someone who has done it in a PA-46. One of his biggest challenges was getting Avgas in Indonesia.

[Sir George Cayley]

If the chance is a real one and you have the confidence I'd go for it. I have regrets over things I didn't do when I had the opportunity so I'll always advise people to follow their dreams.

If you think of the trip as a number of smaller trips all joined together it might not seem so daunting.

Also we get the vicarious pleasure of following your blog along the way:ok:

SGC

[Immortal]

Does it have a MOGAS STC? That helps when you need finding fuel if AvGas is unavailable. Take some (empty) jerrycans and a fuel tester with you so you can check for the alcohol %.

[late-joiner]

You might get something useful from this site:
Earthrounders: round the world flights in light aircraft (http://www.earthrounders.com/)

[Saab Dastard]

Andy,

Go for it, best of luck - and keep us posted! :ok:

SD

[john ball]

Have a look at the book called ''chasing the morning sun''. it is about a guy who flew his Vans RV6 around the world. Also look on the Vans uk web site for more about him. I think he may be based near Gloucester.

[Aussie Andy]

Thanks everyone! Loads of useful info here, plus offline I've been put in touch with some people who've done it... will research a while and then check the size of my balls...!

Andy :-)

[BackPacker]

and then check the size of my balls...!

My feeling would be that the size of your wallet is even more important. Not that such a trip doesn't take balls of course, but several women pilots have successfully completed these kinds of trips too.:E

Good luck. Such a trip is high on my wish-list too, but my wallet is simply too thin for it. But I would definitely want to do it in a plane that's cleared for Mogas (a two-seater with a Rotax 912S up front would do nicely) or has a Thielert/Centurion/SME or other type of diesel/Jet-A engine.

[EddieHeli]

I believe from UK to Aus the overflight permits, landing fees and official bribes run to the order of £20,000 thats before you've spent a penny on flying. Also fuel is indeed the biggest problem, for inspiration read Dave Sykes account of flying there in a microlight with his wheelchair fitted to his flexwing microlight. I had tears in my eyes reading his blog daily during the flight, and bought his book and chatted to him at the LAA rally.
But do it anyway, you only regret the things you don't do, rarely regret those you do.
I am saving up for a round the world flight in 2015, but will be using JetA to get around the fuel problems.

[Aussie Andy]

Yes Avgas is increasingly hard to get - read on earth rounders that they no longer have it in Ahmedabad.

We're I'm at so far is:

- lots of people have said I need an IR a) because there are some areas where you can't file VFR (really?) and b) in 10,000NM you're likely to encounter a *real* need to exercise the privileges of the IR to approach in ****e weather at least once. My gut is that b) can be managed at the expense of delays to play extra safe with weather and only fly on days when confidence is very high at both ends (at the expense of probably exorbitant parking fees) but I don't know enough yet about a). I presume the chap in the microlight did it VFR? My understanding is I'd need to find 12weeks @ 3hrs/day to study the PPL(IR) and 50hrs in the air for a bloody JAR IR... That or get an FAA IR (4wks?) but my aeroplane is G-reg so that doesn't fly (pun intended...).... or move the aeroplane to the N-reg, sounds like a can of worms...

- if the trip can only realistically be done with an IR aboard, then I imagine I could find a young person with a CPL(IR) to accompany me in return for a great experience... BUT this would detract from the fuel load I can carry and hence the range... Still that might be the answer, but brings us back to the increasingly hard-to-find airports-with-AVGAS problem :-(

- on top of which, there is the problem of of getting a ferry tank fitted. If my aeroplane was N-reg then this would not be a problem apparently, but under EASA regulations I gather its a bit of a balls to get a ferry tank fitted legally / certified as this is a mod to the aircraft. I am making enquiries with Far Nirth Aviation in Wick to learn more.

- overflight permits etc I am told are best organised by an agency, who can also assist with things like weather forecasts in remote locations ... I am yet to find out what this will cost.

I could go on, but right now it's looking a bit difficult :-(

[BackPacker]

My gut is that b) can be managed at the expense of delays to play extra safe with weather and only fly on days when confidence is very high at both ends (at the expense of probably exorbitant parking fees)

I'm at the same level as you, experience-wise, but my gut feeling on b) is different. There's something called the Inter Tropical Convergence zone (ITC) where the weather is **** for months on end. And it shifts up and down with the seasons. Some countries call it the Monsoon, others call it differently.

I don't know the details about it, but I do know that that weather phenomenon is entirely different to the weather we get here. Over here in Western Europe, there's a depression every 3-10 days bringing bad weather, with very flyable days in between. So worst case is that you could be stuck here in Western Europe for a few days because of weather. Over there you might be stuck for weeks, if not months, because the weather is far more stable. Stable bad, that is.

Although obviously the trip should be doable VFR (loads of people have done it), having an IR (or at least the experience equivalent to an IR, or an actual IR that's technically not legal because the first letter of your callsign happens to be the wrong one) could be very, very handy.

Another tip that might just be useful in extreme cases: There are companies that can arrange for drums of avgas to be delivered around the globe at a place of your choosing. It'll be very expensive and you will need to find a handling agent to receive and store them for you, but it might just be the only way to get avgas in certain places. There's at least one of them advertising in Flyer magazine.

[AN2 Driver]

Andi,

I'll join the "go for it" crowd, it is feasible and while your initial research may well sound extremely complex (which it is) and impossible (which it's not), you will find as you go along that many obstacles can be overcome if you talk to people who actually know what they are doing from having been there and done it.

If this is the airplane I think of, a Cherokee 180 C, it would mean you have a 50 USG Avgas fuel capacity, 180 hp, 110 kts TAS @ 9 gph, which means about 500 NM range plus reserves. That is indeed a very limiting factor as there are legs which are considerably longer than that, particularly with the situation in the Mid East and later on between Asia and Australia. On the other hand, the PA28-180 is quite a load carrier, which should allow for two people to do the trip plus full tanks plus some. If I look at the turtleneck tanks I think you could probably carry a "Big Buddy" which holds 18 USG and weighs a mere 8 kg, total around 60 kg. That should leave plenty for 2 normal folks and baggage if you want to do this with a 2nd pilot yet it would get you 2 additional flight hours and therefore a range of around 750 NM between AVGAS stops @ 65% or 800 NM @ 55%, with a reserve of 45 Minutes. However, it also means you'd look at legs of 7-8 hours. If there is more weight available, you might carry even more fuel, but then legs get really long. Ideally, 1100 NM would be a range I'd be more comfortable with on this trip. However, that means a fuel capacity of around 90-100 USG and therefore you'd end up a single seater. A Cherokee is definitly not built for this kind of long haul flying.

How to go about installing turtlenecks or other ferry tanks you should investigate with your CAA and/or a maintenance organisation who's done it before.

So the first order of business would have to be to find out if there is a route which would allow legs of the length. Equally, if there is a possibility for a MOGAS STC, which does exist for the PA28-140, but I am not sure about the -180. If so, your options grow as Mogas may well be available where AVGAS is not.

Again, talk to pilots who've done it. They can give you indications how to proceed or not. Possibly one of them might be willing to go with you, which would give you a huge learning experience.

Permissions, yes, get an agency, a good one. They can help and they will.

IR, yes. I personally would not start a trip like that without one even though people have done it and it probably can be done.

Keep the dream alive but do a good and thorough reality check. You may well find that the Cherokee is simply too slow and too short legged to do it, or you may find how to do the trip with 500-800 NM legs and additional tanks.

You might want to look at this one:

Route (http://www.n-flight-enroute.com/Route/route.html)

pretty much the route you would be flying. Also, Arnim is someone you might want to talk to

[172driver]

Andi, first of all - go for it! You'll kick your backside for the rest of our life if you didn't try....

I think your biggest problem will be Avgas. With a PA28-180 w/o ferry tank, prepositioning drums is pretty much your only option (other than Mogas, of course). This may or may not be a budget-buster, cheap it won't be.

As for the IR: to the best of my knowledge, Saudi Arabia is the only country along your probable route that does not allow VFR flight. One way around that could be to get an IR rated pilot to fly that leg for you.

On the capability side - the airplane doesn't know if your IR is FAA or EASA, as long as YOU know what you are doing.

Talk to as many people as you can who have done it and perhaps also post in the Oz and SE Asia section on Pprune - you'll probably get better info re wx and local quirks there than on this forum, which is largely European.

Good luck and keep us posted!

:ok:

[PompeyPaul]

Go for it. But how do you get the aircraft back again?

[Stampe]

Treat yourself to a first class return ticket , save a fortune ,a huge amount of hassle and avoid a lot of risk.Spend the surplus on pleasureable flying at your leisure not making bureaucrats and corrupt officials rich.VBR Stampe

[Sam Rutherford]

Go for it.

Three things to manage:



Avgas
Getting yourself competent (safe) for IMC flight - legal or not is up to you
Avgas!

I recommend using Mike at White Rose Aviation for your clearances - he's better value and more personal than some of the larger alternatives.


Have a great trip - it's still on my list!


Sam.

[Aussie Andy]

OK, making progress... one by one, ways around some of the challenges are starting to come into focus. Just had a long chat with a mate of mine in Australia who has done three US -> Australia via Europe ferry flights in Avgas'd aeroplanes and he had LOTS of practical suggestions. (His day job is flying A380s along similar routes, but much higher...)

I need to spend this weekend with an Excel spreadsheet, the W&B and performance data along with the great circle mapper (Great Circle Mapper (http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=EGTB-YSSY&MS=wls&DU=nm)) to work out leg by leg what might be achievable, and start estimating the costs which will include IMC / EIR / Night Rating refreshers, buying an HF radio, an EGT gauge, a fuel flow meter etc. and getting a ferry tank fitted, and get some quotes from overflight agents.

Then the really hard part: explaining all this, and the costs, to my wife! Come to think of it, I'll also need to have my life insurance topped up.... ... .. .!

Andy :-)

[172driver]

explaining all this, and the costs, to my wife!

May The Force be with you, Andy!

[Katamarino]

Treat yourself to a first class return ticket , save a fortune ,a huge amount of hassle and avoid a lot of risk.Spend the surplus on pleasureable flying at your leisure not making bureaucrats and corrupt officials rich.VBR Stampe

And if you listen to people like this, you'll never do anything fun at all :ok:

[Hodja]

Regarding the need for an Instrument Rating...

While it's true that you could go VFR around the world, and some microlights have indeed made the trip UK-Oz (and some perished on the way), you'll find that getting an overflight clearance for a foreign registered aircraft on a VFR flight plan will become a major problem in several parts of the World, and require weeks/months of prior notice, or they might even reject you outright. And even if you file VFR, some controllers treats you as you were IFR anyway, so you have to figure out the approaches & airways just the same.

An IFR flight plan on the other hand is SOP for foreign aircraft. Not to mention that flying on an IFR flight plan, especially in unfamiliar territory, is a magnitude easier than doodling around VFR...

[Sam Rutherford]

There is no difference for overflight clearance VFR or IFR.

You can file and fly VFR (they might, will probably, ask that you fly along/below IFR routes - but where and how you fly post flight plan submission remains your choice

There is no need for HF.

Fly safe, Sam.

[Aussie Andy]

Thanks Sam... I just spoke with White Rose Aviation (overflight clearance agent) and he said something very similar... so thanks for ratifying bothy h VFR and HF points!

The investigations continue...!

[Hodja]

There is no difference for overflight clearance VFR or IFR.Sure there is. Thailand for instance requires 2 weeks prior notice for VFR overflight clearances, while IFR only takes 3 days. But it's true that VFR is absolutely feasible, although slightly more hassle to arrange.

Another IFR advantage is the ability to fly at night, which can sometimes be convenient. Few if any countries in Asia allow night VFR...

[Aussie Andy]

Yes, that's my understanding too --- and 15x days notice to overfly Burma VFR too. Good job I'm in no hurry :-)

Good point re- night.

[Sir George Cayley]

If you are passing by Burma don't forget to drop into the Spitfire in a Box shop. A couple of those could pay for the trip.:ok:

SGC

[Big Pistons Forever]

At the risk of being rude I think you would have to be totally daft to attempt this flight without having an IFR rating and considerable international flying experience.

If you really want to do this then I think you need to hire an experienced ferry pilot to go with you. His/her costs will probably be saved twice over by understanding how to make the various overflights work and by the fact that you will not have to pay to both get an IFR rating and accumulate enough actual IMC experience to be safe to actually use it for real.

Australia is a huge country which would require many hours to explore in a light aircraft. My 02 cents is put your airplane in a container and use the 20 to 30 K pounds you will save to explore Australia....

[Cows getting bigger]

Do you think "Aussie Andy" may already know a little about Australia? :*

[Big Pistons Forever]

Do you think "Aussie Andy" may already know a little about Australia? :*

I know a little about Canada, another huge country, and despite flying commercially for 25 years there are still lots of areas I would love to see from the air...........

[Golf-Sierra]

And if you listen to people like this, you'll never do anything fun at all

Unless it concerns marriage. In that case it's probably actually good to have advisers like that if you ever want to do fun things like fly around the world in a small plane :}

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Maurice Kirk managed the trip in a Cub:D

[peterh337]

Flying down to Australia, on avgas, is going to be primarily a planning / logistics exercise.

The flying is pretty much the same everywhere you go - until you get to perhaps Mars where the pressure is about 1% so you get awesome TAS figures.

[Katamarino]

I know of 3 pilots who flew from the UK to Australia in a C182, VFR only, no ferry tank or ferry pilot along with them. They had an amazing time. Do your research well, but don't listen to the nay-sayers!

[Aussie Andy]

Cheers Kat - I know it can be done! Still working in the plans :-)

[Hodja]

I think the major factor here is that you've got time on your side & you're doing it as a one-off. If you're cool with waiting out marginal wx for several days as you go along your route (you'll need to amend your clearances though), I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to do it. Just make sure to pick the optimal season weatherwise for the trip.

I'd drop ferry tank & HF. It just complicates the whole thing & technically speaking you can do the trip without it. You'd save a lot of hassle by avoiding "unfortunate" stopovers, but why rob yourself of the adventure of navigating through South Asian airports.

Honestly, go for it...

[spokes]

Hello Andy i did it in a Flexwing microlight down to Sydney and we had the Avgas brought in by the barrel to the airports that didn't have any, but Mike at white rose will be your man that will get you there trust me. :ok:
go for it because if you don't you will be sat in the pub saying to your mates '' i should have done it, but too late late now, wont ever get the chance again wot a prat i am''...
Regards Dave

[Aussie Andy]

Hey there Mr Spokes! Well I wanted to get in touch with you - very impressed with your achievement mate... Mike at White Rose was telling me about your trip - and I have already said to a few people 'if that bloke in the Microlight did it, then I sure can..!"

Ping me when you have time via [email protected] or via Twitter @andyhardy if you wouldn't mind, would love to get your ne'er and have a brief chat!

Andy

[Tonym3]

I flew a Saratoga from Portugal to Oz in July/Aug 2012 but swapped time (of which I had a limited amount) for money and hired a ferry pilot who was also an A&P to go with me.

I blogged the trip for friends and family, but you might find something useful in it. Pprune blocks a link to it so google "saratogaferry" to find the blog.

Mike Rose was great.

We bumbled along and made mistakes along the way and I am sure I could have done it cheaper than I did it. But I loved it and wouldn't trade the experience for anything.

Go for it.

[Aussie Andy]

Mate just found that blog Saratoga Ferry Europe to Australia (http://bit.ly/TxDOI5) so will take a look!

In the Saratoga you had a few things I not have by the looks of things, including a storm scope which I'll bet made it easier to get around the convective weather...!

(You can paste your blog link into a post by first creating a bity link like this... bit.ly/TxDOI5)

[Tonym3]

Thanks for the tip on bitly.

The stormscope was handy on a couple of the nastier weather days. But not as important as the autopilot. I don't know what kit your warrior has but I would say that a good AP will make your trip a lot more enjoyable.

On the VFR/IFR front, I was a sub-250 hour TT pilot when I went and would describe my VOR/NDB navaid skills as then somewhere between basic and non-existent. We had plenty of IMC weather to cope with and some of the controllers will expect you to provide radials and bearings so I was glad to have an IFR pilot with me. Even with him, the flight planning process usually required some time on the phone with the airservices people before departure. You're probably a lot more experienced than I was but, for me, part of the dollars I paid to have a more experienced IFR pilot with me amounted to training. I can say now that, whilst I think I could do it on my own, I wouldn't do it without an IF Rating - I think that some bad weather is just unavoidable.

Take plenty of folding USD and some in small denominations unless you want to be giving big size tips to refuellers in the middle east and North Asia. I took $15K and used it all on handlers and fuel etc.

Get a visa for India even if you don't plan on going through it. You need to arrange it with the consulate before you leave. We didn't originally plan on going through IN but, due lack of 100LL in Muscat, we had no choice. Although I had been warned to expect difficulties in some of the North Asian countries, we didn't struggle terribly and didn't have to "tip".

The turtlepac was good to have but not essential in my 386litre capacity saratoga. It gave me comfort all the way round that we landed with well over a couple of hours gas still in the tanks. I had heard that Saudi Avgas is *very* expensive so it was good to be able to fly over it. Talk to White Rose about it to see if it makes economic sense to buy and install the extra bag as opposed to stopping more often.

Jeppeson on the ipad was our map source. We broke into controlled space once by accident when we had fallen out of VHF range of centre and had not been handed over but otherwise had no trouble. We did install temporary HF but only used it on the Bali to Broome leg.

Get a customs agent to sort out quarantine and customs for when you arrive in Australia.

Feel free to PM me if you want any more info.

[Aussie Andy]

Excellent Tony- I have PM'd you, a question re- HF and stuff...

I have 50USG (190L) in the wings ony, half what you have. So the TurtlePac will bring me up to 100USG say (380L) depending in how much I end up subtracting for copilot, and subject to weight/balance so I'll have way less range than you did, way less safety margin anyway... Will have to plan some shorter legs...

Cheers, woud be good to chat sometime!

[squawking 7700]

Shiela Dyson flew to Oz in her 182 - ask Sheffield Aero Club for a contact number.


7700

[Aussie Andy]

Thx - will do!

[Romeo Tango]

I flew my Robin UK-Australia and back in 1985 VFR, pre-GPS. I had no real weather problems, apart from the odd thunderstorm, after leaving southern France (one tends to forget how really bad the weather is here).

Expect to be on airways giving estimates for reporting points a long way over the horizon .... but with the magic box that's not a problem.

I had only a couple of hundred hours at the time.

As said elsewhere your main problem is avgas. Clearances are easily solved with time and money.

Go for it.

[Aussie Andy]

Fab RT..! If you can PM me your number sometime it'd be fun to have a chat about your experience! Did you have to have HF? I am hoping not to...

[Romeo Tango]

I did have HF (a hired valve set from the splendid Mr Coggins at Coventry - now deceased). This failed about half way there.

Then I did not absolutely have to have it (in hindsight), though it was interesting listening to the chit chat spread over half a hemisphere. Bear in mind this was 25+ years ago.

Suggest you talk to a clearance agent who will either know the latest or know a man who does. Last time I looked into it HF is only required for some Atlantic routes and for the Pacific to the extent that they won't let you go without it. Other places require it but don't check and you can get away with the set being U/S in a non-extant way. On some routes a sat phone is acceptable (and a much better bet IMHO).