Training in the USA

[airaholic]

I know i will get shoot down with this question but have been toying with the idea of heading to the USA to do my MEIR then convert back to OZ. My inital reserch sugests it will cost nearly half the going rate of doing it in OZ. Anyone have any comment good bad otherwise?

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

You still gotta get through an Aussie IREX and flight test. Once you factor in airfares and accom, you won't be so much better off.
FAA will convert an Oz CIR with just a verification, but not a reciprocal arrangement.

[Jack Ranga]

Mate, even if it costs the same or a little more I'd jump at doing some training in the USA. It will broaden your outlook, you will see stuff over there that you'll never see here and you'll be amongst a community that values their aviation infrastructure and the service it provides. I've done a little investigation about flying over there and can't wait to get amongst it.

Go for it :ok:

[zlin77]

It can be done, but it is not too easy to do.....Start by obtaining a Student Visa to attend a USA flight school, prepare to obtain a FAA Licence or obtain a validation on your OZ one, if going for The FAA Licence, either PPL or CPL complete the theory requirements and sit the exam, Hawaii is the closest centre to OZ that I know of, do The FAA Pilot's Medical, this can be done by some DAMEs in Australia, the Instrument Rating Check Ride would also be the Check Ride for the initial issue of The FAA Licence.....once back home I think that you would be required to carry out an I/R Check with a designated examiner in order to have your licence endorsed here.....add the cost of airfares/accommodation/transport, allow at least $3,000 for that...maybe it's not that cheap when you add up everything....I suggest that you contact The FAA to see what they require, as well as CASA to determine the process on returning home.

[swh]

The licence verification process to get your FAA PPL from your Australian CPL may take up to 3 months, I think the cost is around $75. there is also a form you need to fill out and pay for from CASA to release your Australian records.

Airmen Certification - Verify the Authenticity of a Foreign License, Rating, or Medical Certification (http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/foreign_license_verification/)

Once you have the verification letter, you will need to organize an appointment to pick the licence up from a FSDO. Research where you want to fly first, and pick a FSDO nearby. You need to nominate the FSDO at the time of initial application. The issue of the temporary certificate at the FSDO will only take about 20 minutes and its free, they then send out a credit card licence in the mail.

You can do your FAA medical in Australia. Before doing the medical, you should do the medical form online, and doctor that does the FAA medical should be able to tell you the web address and procedure for that.

With the temporary certificate, you can do a a check flight which will activate the licence, you are good to go.

Since 911 you need also to have a visa to do pilot training if you are an US alien. For just an instrument rating, probably the M1 visa will be what you are after. You cannot do flight training on a tourist visa. The school that does your rating will have to help you with this.

When you come back to Australia, you will still need to do the IREX exam and an initial flight test, you cannot convert the rating.

[airaholic]

I am quite happy to do the IREX (actually studying for it right now) and any flight test, . As for flights accommodation etc I will probably have to spend at least a grand anyway to get somewhere in oz that can do my training plus as has been said will also be bit of holiday as well. Not thought of Hawaii anyone know of any schools there?

[fudwinkel]

Guam is closer to Australia.

You could find you will still be required to go through a large part of an MECIR course, at least thats what I have heard. I would be interested to hear the experience of others with an FAA IR in getting the CASA MECIR.

As said before you will need the visa and TSA approval. First step is find the school as you will need them to get the visa and TSA. Normally you will do an IR on a single then do a multi add on. If you go with the written done or ready for it (get a Gleim, PTS and ASA Oral Exam Guide) no reason you cant have the IR within a month.

Fud

[rgmgbg01]

Doing an IR in the USA is a great idea provided you intend to work there.

If however you want to work in Australia I would be asking

1. Why is it so cheap? (get what you pay for!). I am sure that some schools over there are very good. There are some that even the Chinese wont send students.

2. Do you get much experience in class G/no radar environment?

3. Can they give you an NDB endorsement (not much of an issue now but still useful in places).

4. Will it be viewed favourably by employers?

[Hailstop3]

FAA will convert an Oz CIR with just a verification, but not a reciprocal arrangement.

Unfortunately this is incorrect. They will give you a PPL with IR for private use, but you will have to do a flight test and obviously meet the hour requirements for both a CPL and to have the IR to cover CPL too. Trust me I know as I went through all the BS about 3 years ago. I ended up having FAA in OK bouncing it back at the local FSDO and I had to head back to do the flight test for the CPL.

I say go for it. It will certainly open your eyes. I did mine in Fargo at the Fargo Jet centre. Great area to learn and real nice people. Not too busy but busy enough to learn the system. Just make sure you choose summer if you go. -30degC aint nice on the body.

[Metro man]

Some airlines want to see passes in the Australian theory exams and not a conversion from a foreign licence. Also some Chief Pilots don't think too much of the American system. There are some very shonky flying schools over there.

A JAA licence is more highly regarded but the job situation in Europe is abysmal at the moment even assuming you have the right to work there. It would also cost more than the FAA and Aussie licences combined.

You may possibly save some money but put your career prospects in Australia at a disadvantage.

[Centaurus]

Also some Chief Pilots don't think too much of the American system

The same troglodytes probably still believe in the White Australia policy too. As typical proof of their blinkered attitude one WA regional operator knocked back a young bloke who had 1800 hours including the majority single pilot multi command on low level mineral survey work in the desert.

He was told he was unsuitable because he had never flown with fare paying passengers. :mad:

[Lodown]

If you have the opportunity, grab it with both hands. Around a major city in the USA, you will never, ever get the same IFR training experience and workload in Australia. You will be working your butt off and the flight test will be demanding.
By comparison, navaids are everywhere. One hour of flight time will see you bouncing from one aid to the next to the next. You will get done with one approach, climb and go straight onto another. There is very little time wasted repositioning and the ATC procedures are extremely accommodating. A twin VOR approach with a single receiver and COM failure procedures will have you sweating up a storm. As mentioned, you won't get much on NDB's. Luck out with a good instructor and you'll have some great memories in future years.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Me;
FAA will convert an Oz CIR with just a verification, but not a reciprocal arrangement.


Marcuste 747;
Unfortunately this is incorrect. They will give you a PPL with IR for private use, but you will have to do a flight test and obviously meet the hour requirements for both a CPL and to have the IR to cover CPL too.

Exactly what was incorrect about my statement? Did I say anything about the CPL? The question was purely about IR. Expanding the answer into an area that wasn't asked about (the OP has an AUSTRALIAN CPL and wants to add the IR to his AUSTRALIAN license) to show how much you know doesn't make my answer incorrect.

The reference was only to the IR. Trust me, I know. I am converting my ATPL to FAA (not the other way round....funny....) as we speak, and I don't have to do another separate IR test. It was validated with my foreign private license. In Australia, you need to do a separate flight test.:cool:

[tail wheel]

At one point Qantas would not emply Australian pilots that obtained their Australian ATPL by conversion of a US ATPL. CASA would not permit those pilots to re-sit the Australian ATPL exams to obtain a "genuine" Australian ATPL.

Training in the USA could be very career limiting. I suspect there are a number of operators and airlines that would give employment preference to an Australian trained pilot.

[fudwinkel]

I suspect there are a number of operators and airlines that would give employment preference to an Australian trained pilot.

I suspect a few Australian pilots would agree with that.

Common sense would suggest that training and flying in different countries and qualifications from more than one jurisdiction indicate a depth of experience that would be respected and in demand.

Unfortunately in Australia you are sometimes better off not drawing attention to such experience. It seems many of those operators and staff in airlines who make the decisions on such matters have limited to no personal experience of flying outside Australia.

The last I heard was that it is still the practice in some Australian airlines to require completion of all Australian ATPL subjects and possibly even initial ATPL issue to be from CASA. Has it changed ?

Fud

[airaholic]

Wow I was not expecting so much positive feed back. And will definitely be looking into it further. As for training over seas how can it be any different from employing a foreign pilot ie kiwi, pom, or Yank that has done all their training OS.

I have a few thousand hours under my belt now and in my limited experience would say most of the GA operators I have come across won't really care where a rating comes from as long as it is legit, and by the time you have done a few hours of line training, Sat the IREX and oz flight tests will be pretty much up to speed with any differences and after a thousand or so hrs of local IFR experience will anyone else really care later on down the track?

I know it is possible to go over to the USA with a ppl helicopter licence and convert it to a CPL with very limited extra training an assume it is similar for fixed wing as well. This is where I would draw the line personally for OS training that is bypassing the system big time.

It has been mentioned about shonky operators in the USA. I am sure there are a plenty in Oz as well.

I would love to support the local operators and economy etc but at the end of the day I have to get the best value for my buck (not the cheapest just best value).

[Hailstop3]

Exactly what was incorrect about my statement? Did I say anything about the CPL? The question was purely about IR. Expanding the answer into an area that wasn't asked about (the OP has an AUSTRALIAN CPL and wants to add the IR to his AUSTRALIAN license) to show how much you know doesn't make my answer incorrect.

The reference was only to the IR. Trust me, I know. I am converting my ATPL to FAA (not the other way round....funny....) as we speak, and I don't have to do another separate IR test. It was validated with my foreign private license. In Australia, you need to do a separate flight test.

I do apologise that you seem so offended by me taking your CIR reference as meaning a CPL too. I admit I put that link together myself. I guess I was trying to say, as the situation was to me, with a CPL and CIR, you won't be 'given' an IR and CPL licence. All they give is a PPL on the basis of your foreign, and the IR goes with that. The CPL comes with a flight test, and the IR will not, or in my case didn't, come across to the CPL, so an IR flight test is also required. Stupid, yes.

As for the ATPL you are converting, i do totally agree and you are correct. I had a fellow colleague do the same conversion, and only a single flight test was required. Good luck by the way, and next time please don't feel off the bat I'm saying you're completely wrong. I do understand though too much time on prune can have that effect on people.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Not a drama. Do appreciate your response and yeah, I can get a bit defensive sometimes, but most will know I readily admit if I am in the wrong.

Aside, funnily enough, you only need a contracting state CPL and IR along with the req hours to convert with the exam and flight test, but as Tail Wheel has rightly stated, the Australian industry stamped down pretty hard on the practice several years back.
Search FAR 61.151 and the following couple of regs for the requirements.:ok:

[LeadSled]

It seems many of those operators and staff in airlines who make the decisions on such matters have limited to no personal experience of flying outside Australia.Fud,
Too true. In my experience Australian "professional" criticism of the US system is inversely proportional to experience of the US system

CASA is just a teensie weensie bit hypocritical, having sent FOIs, unable to pass the AU ATPL, to US to get an ATR, then granting them an ATPL on return.

As to the "highly regarded" EASA license system, it's self regard and prejudice, the fact remains that the FAA license system remains the most widely recognized, if you are looking for a job outside outside of EC or Australia. There are more pilots flying on FAA licenses (including local validations of an FAA license) than all other licenses combined.

Airoholic, go for it, it will open your eyes to what flying can be, but isn't in Australia.

Tootle pip!!