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View Full Version : Gregg, Dixon, Carnegie, Singo make a play on QF


neville_nobody
18th Nov 2012, 12:18
Could be interesting.....


ANDREW CLEARY AND JAMES CHESSELL
Former Qantas Airways finance chief Peter Gregg and venture capitalist Mark Carnegie have held discussions with key investors and unions as they consider a rival plan to challenge chief executive Alan Joyce’s strategy for the national carrier.

It is understood the pair, who have been linked to a loose consortium including advertising mogul John Singleton, former Qantas chief Geoff Dixon and trucking billionaire *Lindsay Fox, would push for the sale of   Qantas Frequent Flyer and a *partial float of Jetstar to return capital to shareholders if the plan was *formalised.

While the situation remains “very fluid” according to market sources and no firm proposal has been formed, Mr Carnegie and Mr Gregg have talked to key unions which may help in gaining the support of superannuation funds. They are believed to have told people in the meetings that they were approached by disenchanted investors and have the *support of about 20 per cent of the *Qantas register to agitate for a rival strategic plan.

Mr Dixon, Mr Gregg and Mr Carnegie worked on the failed private equity bid for Qantas in 2006 pitched at $5.60 a share. The stock has fallen 26 per cent over the past 12 months compared with a 2 per cent rise in the broader benchmark index.

A full takeover of Qantas is not being considered by the group. It is more likely it would consider buying a stake that would allow it to push** *for an alternative strategy that would     include a more aggressive expansion of the mainline carrier into Asia.

The plan would add more direct routes and frequencies between Australia and Asia’s booming business capitals. The group of investors is understood to recognise the benefits of the recent alliance with Emirates for solving Qantas’s network issues in Europe, but questioned the financial returns. They are more focused on securing a tie-up with an Asian carrier such as Cathay Pacific to lock down the regional market. They would also give priority to delivery of the fuel-efficient Boeing Dreamliner to Qantas International rather than Jetstar.

Sources close to the plan have said the decision on whether to proceed was not dependent on funding. It is more about whether the group can gain enough support to formulate a new strategy for the struggling carrier. A 10 per cent stake in Qantas would cost $284.3 million based on Friday’s closing price.

It is believed Mr Gregg and Mr Carnegie about two months ago held a series of briefings with union groups, including those representing Qantas pilots, engineers and ground workers, in a bid to secure their support. Core Qantas investors to have been briefed on the plan include Balanced Equity Management. It is understood the asset manager stressed its support for Mr Joyce and his five-year restructuring program for the loss-making Qantas International division.

Mr Gregg, who is now the chief financial officer at Leighton Holdings, and Mr Dixon declined to comment. Mr Fox did not return calls. Mr Fox is the financial backer most recently linked to the group, while Mr Singleton is a long-term associate and co-investor of the trio. Qantas shares closed at $1.26 on Friday.

Qantas head of government and corporate affairs Olivia Wirth said the airline had received no formal or informal approaches regarding a takeover of any description. “Qantas is often the subject of speculation and there has been takeover speculation for at least the past 12 months,” Ms Wirth said.

She said the company’s strategy was “geared towards sustainable shareholder value”, citing the $100 million share buyback and early debt repayment announced last week. Qantas is considered vulnerable to a destabilisation strategy because of its weak share price. The stock is trading at roughly half book value and touched a record low in June after a surprise profit warning. Qantas posted its first loss since privatisation in 2012, with one-off restructuring costs and losses at the international unit tipping the company to a $244 million net loss.

“Management remains focused on building a stronger Qantas, which it is doing through the proposed Emirates partnership, investing in new aircraft, growing Jetstar in Asia, maintaining a profit-maximising domestic market share of 65 per cent and tackling its legacy cost base.”

With close to $4 billion in cash on its balance sheet, the company has ample room to continue buying its own shares should the share price remain near current levels. Mr Joyce is in the second year of a five-year turnaround strategy that he has said will restore Qantas International to profit by the end of year three and return its cost of capital on an ongoing basis on conclusion.

The alternative strategy promoted by Mr Gregg and Mr Carnegie and their backers revisits some of the tenets of the failed private equity buyout of Qantas in 2007.

When asked last week about the prospect of a group of former Qantas executives and related parties taking a stake in the airline, Emirates president Tim Clark backed Mr Joyce’s strategy and said many of the problems the Qantas CEO was tackling were the legacies of his predecessors. “They will always be in the wings,” Mr Clark said of the group. “If they have retired, retire.”

Under the strategy, the company has slashed capital expenditure at the unit, pushing back or cancelling aircraft deliveries and cut jobs across engineering, catering, cabin crew and lower management to bridge the cost gap between Qantas and its offshore-based competitors such as Singapore Airlines, Emirates and Cathay Pacific.

Mr Clark said he expects other groups may be considering a destabilisation strategy given how low the share price is. “If this is one, it will definitely not be the last,” he told reporters in Dubai last week.

“They will gain traction I suppose if they talk to the union organisations who don’t necessarily agree with what is going on. But I assure you, within three years someone will be eating their words because within three years, given the Qantas strategy, given the link to Emirates and us to them, things will be completely different.”

Capt Kremin
18th Nov 2012, 18:59
Hmmmm, go with one psychopath or go back to another? I can feel morale SOARING in the Qantas group!

That said, putting the 787s on the premium side of things looks better than what is happening now. I wonder what the unions said?

Sunfish
18th Nov 2012, 19:59
Told yer so. Qantas has been "in play" since before the APA bid.

The assets these guys see are:

1) The brand name.

2) The cash flow.

3) The slots and airside real estate (that stops market entry by others).

4) The Chairmans lounge and Qantas superlative lobbying ability with both sides of Government. (ties also to #1)

5) The huge political power inherent in manipulating schedules to the benefit of certain capital cities and the detriment of others.

That is all. The actual "service delivery" is not a factor in their heads. That can be left to a multitude of the cheapest contractors. They care nothing for the actual business of running an airline.

The problem for Joyce is that all he knows about is running LCC......so the solution is to turn QF into an LCC...because that is all he knows.

WorthWhat
18th Nov 2012, 20:06
Hmmm! Expect who said what, if anything, will be another 'best kept secret'.

If the Unions were approached, can only hope their response was something along the lines of:

· We’ll support a Pay Freeze for X % of the Company and for Votes in determining the Strategy.

Keg
18th Nov 2012, 20:23
Ben Sandilands' take:

The detailed insight into an alternative survival strategy for Qantas in a report in the Australian Financial Review appears to have powerful friends among pilots and shareholders, but can a revolt against the failing strategies of the current management come fast enough to save the carrier?

No-one knows the answer to this question, not even the plotters said to include former CFO Peter Gregg, and vulture, er, venture capitalist Mark Carnegie.

But let’s consider the reasons for urgency.

The Joyce strategy of stopping investment in Qantas international until it achieves whatever the current board sees as an acceptable return on investment is like stopping in the fast lane on a freeway to change a tire.

The rest of the sector isn’t going to wait for Joyce, who has been a total failure at Qantas, and who has brought ruin on the share price, the carrier’s reputation and its relationship with its most valuable asset, its people, to get it right.

Joyce calling time out on Qantas long haul in terms of new investments is making a call no one else, including proposed strategic partner, Emirates, is going to hear or heed.

Adding a fare and capacity war to domestic Qantas activities is scarcely the stuff of genius either. The market needs to know how Jetstar in its own right is faring, and why there appears to be a problem with yields and scheduling with Qantas mainline.

It isn’t a legitimate investment to shuffle around A330s and refurbish aged fuel guzzling high maintenance 767s in the full service supposedly premium product when brand new Dreamliner 787-8s are consigned to a Jetstar international wide body operation that lacks total transparency in reporting and has been reducing some of its scheduling.

And cutting off access to real Qantas flights all the way to Europe and the UK for travellers boarding in Perth, Adelaide and Brisbane in favour of urging them to join the other ex Qantas customers who have already switched loyalties to Emirates brings no obvious benefit to Qantas shareholders.

The current board seems fearful of being in the business of long haul flight, and complicit in actions that are now seriously undermining Qantas domestic.

Neither the board nor the CEO have served Qantas with distinction. How much longer can this self harm persist?

Sunfish
18th Nov 2012, 20:38
Ben Sandilands:

Neither the board nor the CEO have served Qantas with distinction. How much longer can this self harm persist?

Ben is making an assumption here that must be questioned:

Is the purpose of the Board and CEO to serve each and every shareholder equally?

Nulli Secundus
18th Nov 2012, 21:13
"Mr Gregg, who is now Chief Financial Officer at Leighton Holdings"......
very odd, who would have thought that gig was only part time?

Tell you what, Leightons struck gold with his appointment??

Let's face it, this is only ever going to be a money deal.

Everyone in finance knows there's no better game in town than finance. Try getting a finance guy to leave finance to build a business..... almost never happens.

Now do we see why Joyce got the gig and JB was sent packing? These people are like despot dictators who 'step down' & simply install puppets.

Surely an opportunity for Obeid Consulting to get in on this?

Lucky Six
18th Nov 2012, 21:19
Sunny, is it not the role of the CEO to manage the organisation and the role of the Chairman/Board to ensure it is well managed? Therefore, Ben Sandilands is spot on in his description of the current Chairman, Board, CEO and Executive Management.

This description of roles comes from Jim Leslie a previous QF Chairman who was an excellent Chairman and had no trouble pulling his CEO into gear.

Safe Flying

Sunfish
18th Nov 2012, 22:37
Jim, was a good chairman. His MC never went to his head, my Dad and I liked him a lot.

AEROMEDIC
18th Nov 2012, 22:44
Share holders are only interested in value returns.

During his tenure, Dixon made it VERY clear that the #1 priority was shareholder return. Joyce believes he is enhancing Dixon's model, but we all know he has failed.

After getting a caning on the share price, shareholders are looking to ANYONE that will get them a return of some kind, so along comes Dixon and friends......

I just can't see that things will change under them either. They are interested only in what they can get out of it for themselves BEFORE the shareholder and try to make it seem like they are doing everyone a favour.

There won't be any significant change in employee relations either, so the ship will just continue to get tossed and turned on this particular stormy sea.

What I'd give for some good news.....:sad:

moa999
18th Nov 2012, 23:20
As a rationale shareholder base, they should have taken the $5.50. It was a large premium on an industry that was making cyclically high profits, it was always downhill from there (albeit no-one quite imagined the GFC).

And what would have happened???
For shareholders $5.50 versus $1.20 today with no dividends last few years

As for the airline and employees, well its all crystal ball but here goes.
QFF, Terminals, Owned planes flogged off quickly - quick reduction of the massive debt taken on and nice dividend to the privateeer guys. Maybe even separation of Jetstar.
Then the music would have stopped as GFC hit and Qantas started bleeding.
New owners would have lost control, the banks/other hedge funds taken control and no doubt ended up with a debt for equity swap (much like just happened in Nine). Those leased plans - probably recalled by lessors (like Mexicana, Kingfisher), future orders cancelled, so QF would have shrunken massively and huge number of employees laid off -- far far worse than under Joyce.

And one of the key guys behind it, expects union support now.

ALAEA Fed Sec
18th Nov 2012, 23:29
Amazing.

A rumour like this has seen the share price rise more than the share buy back.

Nobody has talked to us about it. Sounds like rubbish.

Helmut Smokar
18th Nov 2012, 23:37
Spot on Moa, the Dixon plan involved all the above. The unions would want do do all they can to keep These crooks out of the business. That said I'd certainly flog JQ before it's worth absolutely nothing. The faster Virgin moves into the premium market the less value there is in JQ.
Joyce got handed the shit sandwich by Dixon and I reckon he only realised it about February this year. Poor sap :hmm:

Hugh Gorgen
18th Nov 2012, 23:38
A week ago the Qantas Board approved a share buy back of $100 million and a reduction of debt (ahead of time ) of $650 million.
Another attempt to block any potential take-over manoeuvre ?

It makes me furious that rather than spend money on product improvement and aircraft upgrades/expansion to enhance and the grow the business enabling us all profit (Staff, shareholders, paying public), these guys are focussed only on protecting their jobs through the prevention of any leadership change.

Potsie Weber
18th Nov 2012, 23:41
They should probably sell off Frequent Flyer regardless while it is still worth something, before it is all given away to Emirates.

AEROMEDIC
18th Nov 2012, 23:44
You know what they say...... buy the rumor,sell the fact.

QF94
19th Nov 2012, 00:04
@ moa999

As for the airline and employees, well its all crystal ball but here goes.
QFF, Terminals, Owned planes flogged off quickly - quick reduction of the massive debt taken on and nice dividend to the privateeer guys. Maybe even separation of Jetstar.

That was going to happen had the APA bid succeeded back in late 06/early 07

Then the music would have stopped as GFC hit and Qantas started bleeding.

QANTAs would have bled instantaneously, as their, at the time, $4.5billion in cash holding would have been swapped for APA's debt, and the company would have folded. Not to mention that the board at the time were to share in almost $200million windfall if the sale went through, and maintained their positions on the board of the "New" QANTAS.

New owners would have lost control, the banks/other hedge funds taken control and no doubt ended up with a debt for equity swap (much like just happened in Nine).

The new owners would have had control of the whole of the cash holdings, paying off their debts, sold off parts off the business, and let it go under, and the Australian taxpayer would have had to pick up the pieces

Those leased plans - probably recalled by lessors (like Mexicana, Kingfisher), future orders cancelled, so QF would have shrunken massively and huge number of employees laid off -- far far worse than under Joyce.


No different under Joyce. QF is shrinking massively as we speak, orders of the A380 deferred/cancelled, no replacements for the 747's as they leave one by one on an almost monthly basis, and huge numbers of employees being laid off as we speak.

The buy back of shares has nothing to do with improving share price and returning dividends to shareholders. This gives the board the chance to hold on to the company shares and sell them off to Gregg, Singleton and Dixon at a very favourable price less than a quarter of the price achievable back in 2006/07.

If you look at the current share price to the number of shares, that almost equals the CASH holdings of QANTAS, plus assets such as planes, lounges, FF program, engineering facilities (what's left of them), etc., etc.

QANTAS is well and truly undervalued for what it has in cash and assets, and this will be given to the matey club of Dixon, Singleton and Gregg. This is why AJ was installed as CEO of QANTAS, and Dixon was installed by James Strong. The rot goes back a long way and is well an truly set in.

QF94
19th Nov 2012, 00:11
@ Helmut Smokar

That said I'd certainly flog JQ before it's worth absolutely nothing.

Why flog off JQ? Repaint them into QANTAS colours, keep the staff and have a premium only product. There'll be no loss of passengers from QANTAS, they charge a premium price, and have a great deal of market share, dwarfing Virgin's. They could even keep the staff on JQ payments. They do it with Jetconnect from NZ. Pay local NZers local NZ pay, dress them up in QANTAS uniforms and fly in QANTAS coloured aeroplanes. Works a treat.

Why would you sell something you own, that has a great deal of market share? Let the others sell cheap tickets, because when there's not enough seats at the low prices, and you want to fly, you either don't go on your holiday, or you pay the premium and get a premium class flight.

QF94
19th Nov 2012, 00:23
@ AEROMEDIC

What I'd give for some good news.....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif

May be not good news, but something to cheer you up a bit!!

The Spoof : Kangaroo Closes Heathrow For 2 Hours! funny satire story (http://www.thespoof.com/news/uk/109147/kangaroo-closes-heathrow-for-2-hours)

AEROMEDIC
19th Nov 2012, 02:15
"Good job, Skippy."

(cut to rest of cast giggling and laughing)

(Roll credits)

.............nice. :)

Keg
19th Nov 2012, 02:27
And if you want to maintain the illusion of having a low cost carrier, you keep a few rows down the back as your 'Jetstar class' whereby they get nothing in terms of service unless they pay.

Sunfish
19th Nov 2012, 09:23
Is there a connection between the Qantas chairman and the "investors"?

its most recent action against Newcrest, GCR has challenged the validity of the grant of ML1472, which covers a third of the giant Cadia East deposit. Behind GCR is a cabal of influential mining identities including the former Rio Tinto chief Leigh Clifford, founder of Barlow Jonker Jeremy Barlow, former Glencore and Xstrata chairman Willy Strothotte, and venture capitalist Mark Carnegie.

Read more: ]Newcrest gold mine licence challenged (http://www.theage.com.au/business/newcrest-gold-mine-licence-challenged-20121119-29lss.html#ixzz2Cf8y8srwE)

AEROMEDIC
19th Nov 2012, 11:15
The rumour, if true, would herald a huge con by this group.

To be seen like white knights riding in to the rescue and buy up shares is just too bizarre.
To take a significant shareholding position in order to change the direction in which Qantas is going is strange.
These guys don't usually invest a lot of money in a high risk strategy like this, and the only reason I can see that they would do this on this occasion is to sell down these shares at later date to take profits.
Of course this not illegal, but certainly unethical if you have conned people into thinking that the company is now on track for better times and future dividends.
Good news no doubt for long suffering shareholders.
The tricky part might be in acquiring shares at a nice low price as a package, but wait... Qantas has been buying back a tidy $100 million of shares and I wonder if there would be an off market transaction.

Hmmmmm.....

Direct to
19th Nov 2012, 20:29
Everybody wants something for nothing.....

mcgrath50
19th Nov 2012, 21:27
And if you want to maintain the illusion of having a low cost carrier, you keep a few rows down the back as your 'Jetstar class' whereby they get nothing in terms of service unless they pay.

This seems to work on the ANZ flights I've been on trans tasman. There are a range of economy fares, some that include meals some that don't. I believe Virgin Australia is doing something similar now as well.

FoxtrotAlpha18
19th Nov 2012, 22:20
There's a rumour floating around in some circles that Joyce is either about to jump or has been pushed... :ooh:

blueloo
19th Nov 2012, 22:29
I think the staff are hanging on to any rumour like this and running with it.

I think there will be tears of joy if true, but the company may be so far up shit creek that even if true it will be a small moment of joy on the inevitable train smash set in motion a long time ago.

....anyway as much as I'd love it to be true, somehow I doubt it is.

Ngineer
19th Nov 2012, 22:53
Selling frequent flyers is not good for our business, just a quick way of pocketing some cash.

troppo
19th Nov 2012, 23:08
Partial float of Jetstar...roll up roll up..5 QF shares for 1 JQ share makes it a cheap buy back :E

Keg
19th Nov 2012, 23:15
Selling frequent flyers is not good for our business, just a quick way of pocketing some cash.


That would depend on whether we start to charge them a proper rate of return for the seats they 'buy' off us.

neville_nobody
20th Nov 2012, 00:39
This is starting to sound like the movie 'Wall Street'. Except in this case it isn't pension funds but the cash that QF has on hand. Can't remember the figure but QF has tonnes of cash just lying around for a rainy day. That plus a few spin-offs are probably where Dixon et al are looking whilst playing the white knight card to the staff.

Phalanger
20th Nov 2012, 01:35
Is the purpose of the Board and CEO to serve each and every shareholder equally?
They are responsible to the shareholders' interests as a group, not individually (rather clear in case law). However under management ethics they are also responsible to stakeholders at different levels depending on their interests and effects on the interests (with the purpose in the long term still being the shareholders' interests).

It gets much more tricky with different shareholder classes and changes that may alter their effectiveness but that is not so much a day to day issue.

Dunnocks
20th Nov 2012, 01:44
The things I remember most clearly about Gregg's tenure as CFO was how he got his ugly mug on the Teevee on a daily basis during the 2008 stoush with the LAME's. He was at pains to let the travelling public know that LAME's "weren't exactly the working poor" - when, clearly, we should be - and that we were making "a grab for cash" - all the while, pulling a massive salary out of the place himself... I can't wait to see him back in the joint :mad:

And Dicko, well, we remember this little stunt...
Qantas cops pay backlash (http://www.smh.com.au/business/pay-backlash-for-qantas-20091021-h8ia.html)


Oops, I tell a lie... It was Brown, the HR boss, that made the 'working poor' crack, not Gregg.

Taildragger67
20th Nov 2012, 02:46
Crikey things must be grim if the prospect of Dixon making a return is seen as an improvement.

Quote from Singo (http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Rival-investors-could-spike-Qantas-Emirates-tie-up-pd20121119-27NH6?OpenDocument&src=rab):

Mr Singleton told Fairfax Media that, due to an overseas trip, he was unaware of takeover talk.

However, he stood by claims the airline has made recent management errors, including retaining Alan Joyce as chief executive.

''Who wouldn't be interested [in Qantas]?'' he told Fairfax. ''There is $3 billion in cash sitting in the bloody thing.''

Capt Kremin
20th Nov 2012, 03:13
To be fair to Dixon... and this is through gritted teeth.... I don't think he ever envisaged the the situation we have today where QF International is being starved of investment to pay for Jetstar Asia and Jetstar International.

I think he may get some influence again, and this will be solely to line his own pockets, but if as a consequence Qantas gets back to being Qantas again, I won't whinge too much.

gaunty
20th Nov 2012, 03:46
If I had the money, I would be buying QF like there was no tomorrow.

A management clean out is inevitable with a return to focus on looking after the staff and passengers.

There is, for the moment, maybe, just enough left of what made it a great Australian carrier.

But not for long.

BTW posters congratulations on keeping this thread a :mad: and gratuitous reviler free zone. :ok::D

Hempy
20th Nov 2012, 04:52
Considering two of the alleged participants have no knowledge of it and the rest haven't said a word, I smell a big stinking red rat behind this story...

QF94
20th Nov 2012, 05:41
@ Kapt Kremin

To be fair to Dixon... and this is through gritted teeth.... I don't think he ever envisaged the the situation we have today where QF International is being starved of investment to pay for Jetstar Asia and Jetstar International.

It was Dixon that formed Jetstar through Orange Star Holdings in Asia. He together with Jackson. It was also he that said Jetstar won't cannibalise QANTAS routes and it was under him that Jetstar commenced cannibalising QANTAS routes.

Dixon almost climaxed with Jackson when they announced the sale of QANTAS back in '06 and gave that all so famous hug to each other. Why wouldn't they? They stood to gain almost $200million between the board, and retain their positions in the private company who then had no one to answer to, and gut the company the way they wanted. Dixon is likely to come back only to finish what he started.

standard unit
20th Nov 2012, 06:13
Dixon is likely to come back only to finish what he started.

Like dogs to their vomit.

Disgusting, but they just can't help it.

FoxtrotAlpha18
20th Nov 2012, 07:32
And...we're back! :hmm:

standard unit
20th Nov 2012, 08:20
In today's Financial Review Singleton when questioned was quite open about being interested because of the 3 billion cash Qantas has in it's coffers.

Since privatisation Qantas has only EVER been run with the view to making those doing so very, very rich.

Depressing for those of us working here who actually care about the company's future........

ejectx3
21st Nov 2012, 00:19
Exactly. Is it too much to ask to get some leadership who might actually be remotely interested in making Qantas great again rather than robbing it?

Ka.Boom
23rd Nov 2012, 21:54
It now emerges that Dixon and his cronies have a 2% stake in the National Carrier.
No more red wine lunches for Scrotum Face and the leprechaun

Shark Patrol
23rd Nov 2012, 22:32
Wow! 2%!!!

I guess the leprechaun's next bonus will only get approved by a margin of 94% in favour instead of 96% in favour (like at the AGM before the grounding last year).

bddbism
23rd Nov 2012, 23:55
Is it just me or does the press not seem to make a connection with Joyce's abysmal performance and the Scrotum Face buy out? It's being reported as though Joyce and Clifford's leadership is being challenged by the private eq group, but none seem to mention how awfully convenient it is that 6 years after their first bid fell through, they're still loitering around with a share price has miraculously halved through spectacular failures of management.
Surely, no one could be that bad off their own bat could they? Surely for AJ's sake he was/is part of the whole plan from day dot. Surely?

QF94
24th Nov 2012, 04:10
Surely, no one could be that bad off their own bat could they? Surely for AJ's sake he was/is part of the whole plan from day dot. Surely?

Why do you think Borghetti is at Virgin???

73to91
24th Nov 2012, 09:48
What got me was Gregg has a full time job and surely that should be his priority and certainly he should not be making comments about another organisation. So I searched for any articles regarding Gregg, Dixon etc.


A GROUP of private investors keen for a change of strategy in Qantas have purchased a small stake in the airline through a private trust so it would be unable to be detected on the share register and because they believe the shares are significantly undervalued.

The trust is controlled by former Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon, former chief financial officer Peter Gregg and venture capitalist Mark Carnegie.

Qantas hired Macquarie Group last year as a defence adviser and has kept a close eye on its share register amid speculation the group may purchase a stake and seek to agitate for a change of strategy at the airline.

It is understood the group bought their stake, which is less than 2 per cent, several months ago because they believed the shares were significantly undervalued.

However it also gives them a position to build from for the future.

There is speculation they started buying shares before Qantas announced its alliance with Emirates in September.

The private trust has no involvement with Global Aviation Asset Management, the aviation leasing group in which the three players also have an interest.

Mr Carnegie has been the driver of the discussions with unions and one institution while Mr Gregg is said to have only provided advice during the briefings.

While Mr Dixon is said to have been more distant from the group, he is still an investor in the trust.

Mr Carnegie has been keen to secure backing from union-aligned industry funds to build a strategic stake in the airline but as yet has been unable to garner their support.

Mr Gregg has been conscious of avoiding a conflict with his role as chief financial officer at Leighton Holdings.

It is believed Qantas chairman Leigh Clifford rang Leighton chairman Stephen Johns this week to inquire about Mr Gregg's alleged role in agitating for change at Qantas.

But Leighton has publicly backed Mr Gregg.

Mr Gregg is the only member of the group to have made a public comment, saying this week he had no plans to destabilise Qantas.

The airline's biggest investor, Balanced Equity, and other Qantas investors such as BT have publicly backed chief executive Alan Joyce's strategy for the airline.
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/private-shareholder-group-builds-qantas-stake/story-e6frg95x-1226523236470)

Andrew Cleary and James Chessell

The group of former Qantas executives and their co-investors seeking support for a change of strategy at the national carrier has emerged as owning a strategic stake in the airline.

The Weekend Financial Review has learned the consortium has amassed a
shareholding in Qantas, believed to be a stake of between 1 and 2 per cent.

The group of investors includes former Qantas chief Geoff Dixon, (http://afr.com/p/business/companies/carnegie_gregg_may_challenge_joyce_i9bm9SieKXLIUculg9wbaP)
former CFO Peter Gregg, investment banker turned venture capitalist Mark
Carnegie and ad man John Singleton.
(http://afr.com/p/business/companies/carnegie_gregg_may_challenge_joyce_i9bm9SieKXLIUculg9wbaP)

The stake has been linked to a holding of similar size being held by Credit
Suisse in London, with the initial entry believed to have been when the stock was trading at $1.15. Qantas last traded at that price in early September, and closed at $1.275 yesterday. The airline has been the subject of ongoing speculation that it is vulnerable to a takeover or destabilisation strategy from activist shareholders, as its share price is still trading near a record low and at half book value.

Confirmation that the high-profile investment group had purchased a stake
comes after The Weekend Financial Review reported that Mr Carnegie and Mr Gregg led briefings to some Qantas investors and unions two months ago, in which they pushed a rival management strategy for the airline. One source close to the group said they were aware of sufficient shareholder interest in the alternate strategy. “There wouldn’t be room for shareholder activism if shareholders were happy,” the source said.

The group is understood to have pressed the case for the float of Jetstar’s
Asian franchises, and the partial sale or float of Qantas Frequent Flyer, moves they told one investor could unlock billions of dollars in otherwise unrealised value.

Lacks support of major shareholders

The consortium has privately criticised Qantas chief Alan Joyce’s
international strategy and details of the comprehensive tie-up with Emirates. It has not secured the support of major shareholders including Balanced Equity Management, which owns 11 per cent of the airline. It is believed the investment consortium has also held talks with financial backers to fund a larger stake to push their views, though no decision has been made yet on whether to proceed.

Mr Dixon and Mr Gregg backed the failed buyout attempt for Qantas in 2007, while Mr Carnegie advised the Qantas board which also supported the private equity bid.

The group has made private investments in the airline industry including in
Global Aviation Asset Management, an aircraft leasing firm that they bought into in 2010 before it was sold one year later at a 40 per cent return. Other investors in the GAAM consortium included former Allco Finance Group executive chairman David Coe, and Greg Woolley, a former Macquarie Bank executive who headed the investment committee behind the $11 billion bid for Qantas by a consortium including Allco, private equity group TPG and Macquarie.

Mr Dixon, Mr Gregg and Mr Carnegie declined to comment. Mr Singleton did not return phone calls seeking comments. A Qantas spokeswoman declined to comment.

The group does not have to declare any interest as long as the holding is under 5 per cent.


Qantas club builds rival share stake (http://afr.com/p/business/companies/qantas_club_builds_rival_share_stake_zr4X29tPPMhULwU6KWeqbI)

Olivia Howes
24th Nov 2012, 09:50
Gregg may have a job but why couldn't he talk about an investment he might make with some friends?

Sunfish
24th Nov 2012, 18:59
This should b fcuking illegal. All players have far more knowledge about the internals of Qantas than any other investor.

Romulus
24th Nov 2012, 20:48
This should b fcuking illegal. All players have far more knowledge about the internals of Qantas than any other investor.

Classic Management Buy Out (MBO).

They have an alternate plan and they reckon they can make it work better than Joyce based on their direct history and experience with the company. Nothing illegal in that. Unless you take the position you can never hire anyone to use their experience and training gained elsewhere. Takeovers could only ever be undertaken by people with no idea of the industry target otherwise it could be claimed they "have far more knowledge about the internals of X than any other investor". Logically it is only through having that knowledge that you can form a genuine business plan to do something better.

Other investors are free to form consortia and engage Gregg, Dixon and Co to advise them or be part of their team including taking an equity position.

Olivia Howes
24th Nov 2012, 22:19
This should b fcuking illegal. All players have far more knowledge about the internals of Qantas than any other investor.


I don't see what the problem is. Dixon delivered profit for the group every year he was CEO.

ohallen
24th Nov 2012, 23:10
Well, the problem in my view is that he did this, while filling his own pockets and setting up an uncertain future for the employees he left behind, rather than create long term value.

The bigger problem however is that he sat in the CEO seat while he plotted to put together a private equity bid when arguably he should have stood aside the minute he became involved. Recent events in Billabong by a director showed that this is the proper course of action when a CEO becomes so heavily conflicted between his personal objectives and those of the company. There was a WA mining company chair who booted a CEO when he got wind of similar events a few years ago. The QF Chair appeared to be part of the plan or atleast sanctioned it, so therefore forgot her own role.

To then continue to have private meetings with the CEO has confused the issue further. It is not unusual for a mentor /student to have ongoing relationships BUT it is a very bad look in the context within which it happened. The fact that it stopped when reported says they knew it as well.

Have to say that the whole situation has the smell of either bad journalist standards or the NSW ALP. One day we will find out which.

AEROMEDIC
24th Nov 2012, 23:36
I don't see what the problem is. Dixon delivered profit for the group every year he was CEO.

Oballen,

You are right. Dixon was hopelessly compromised in carrying out his fiduciary duty. He SHOULD have stood aside. He didn't.

While Qantas delivered profits, it was the result of the cost cutting model that we lament today. Dixon had shareholders had his #1 priority with customers and staff way behind. He began the process of taking a premium service airline down the road toward a LCC.
I am a shareholder and strongly believe that Qantas should STAY a safe, premium service airline and because it's customers and staff ALSO want it that way.

QF94
25th Nov 2012, 06:12
strongly believe that Qantas should STAY a safe, premium service airline and because it's customers and staff ALSO want it that way.

Couldn't agree more. I've said it before. QANTAS should just absorb J*, repaint the aircraft into QANTAS colours, rid itself of the discount bogan fares and make itself a premium only airline. They will not lose market share. The other airlines will quickly sell out of discount fares, and people that want to travel will pay a higher fare, simply not travel or go on a not-so-time efficient means of travel i.e. bus, train, car, etc...


I don't see what the problem is. Dixon delivered profit for the group every year he was CEO.

Olivia, Olivia, Olivia. Yes, Dixon did post profits under his watch, but he also nearly snatched an Australian airline from under the Australian public's nose. All to benefit himself and his chosen few mates, when the then board were to share in almost $200million had the sale gone through, and yet he still walked out with $11million and he hadn't completed his contract.

Dixon also created J* at the expense of QANTAS, cannibalised their routes and commenced the countdown to what we now have. A basket case of an airline, that has a "virtual" international network.

Dixon also did nothing but talk down the airline during its best years whilst making record profits, but when the private equity bid failed, for the first time did he ever talk up the airline. The only reason was to get the best share price for his mates that missed out on the purchase of the company.

Olivia, you can't see what the problem is because you need new spectacles. Dixon was and still is a dog of a person who only looks out for Dixon.

tenretni
26th Nov 2012, 01:13
The Fin Review reporting that the consortium is to make their intention public this week.

Qantas reported to be ready for a public stoush.

I am going to enjoy this!

As for Qantas its probably rooted either way and if Dixon and his mates succeed it seems Jetstar International (at least) may be rooted also.

Interesting times!

denabol
26th Nov 2012, 01:55
If you want to see how rooted Qantas is get an eyeful of the photos of its supposedly upgraded business class domestic in Australian Business Traveller here:

Qantas moving to Airbus A330-only flights for Sydney-Perth, Melbourne-Perth - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller (http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-moving-to-airbus-a330-only-flights-for-sydney-perth-melbourne-perth?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=flipper&utm_campaign=home-flipper)

Does Qantas hate its customers? How can any expert management do so much damage to themselves.

Ben has also covered this and says Emirates can bail if Joyce gets flicked.

Qantas continues to kick own goals, as contras circle | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/11/26/qantas-continues-to-kick-own-goals-as-contras-circle/)

The Green Goblin
26th Nov 2012, 02:23
The Darth patrol didn't want anything to do with Emirates anyway.

They went public with these sentiments when it was announced.

Interesting times we live in.

TheWholeEnchilada
26th Nov 2012, 02:32
My "connected" postie (who correctly called an Emirates/QF deal back in June (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/486661-qantas-emirates-codeshare.html#post7220263), although he got the structure wrong) suggests Gerry Harvey's name keeps popping up in relation to the Gregg/Dixon/Singo as a fellow PE "investor". Is this why he is getting into the very public QF bashing game?

The postie also suggest this PE deal is backed by Singapore dollars, a few more twists and turns to go in this saga...

Ultergra
26th Nov 2012, 05:21
Reading the replies on the ABT website, it sounds like a whole bunch of uneducated ppruners, who are still angry they never got in to QF, still going to every website possible and spend time trashing the brand.

Seriously, go read it. Spelling mistakes, errors in grammar and poor punctuation! If anyone with half a brain reads that website and thinks a real business person has time to comment so "passionately" about such a topic is clearly delusional!!

Qantas moving to Airbus A330-only flights for Sydney-Perth, Melbourne-Perth - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller (http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-moving-to-airbus-a330-only-flights-for-sydney-perth-melbourne-perth?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=flipper&utm_campaign=home-flipper)

Acute Instinct
26th Nov 2012, 05:46
Dear Scrotey (ball bag, how the hell do you spell it),

You are taking tens of thousands of people for the ride of their lives on your narcissistic roller coster. They all believe in you and what you stand for. You are truly an Australian to follow. One to be rallied behind and supported. You and you alone can save the workers and thier passengers from this rort of sorts. We love you and miss you. Please come back and save the day. Heaven is awaiting. Kind Regards, The Masses.

P.S. Dont tell anyone, because its a secret, bit like the Church.

Hugh Jarse
26th Nov 2012, 05:48
Face it, Ultergra - there are plenty of people around that have never even applied to QF that are happy that they work for other airlines, :} and;

Your lot are just as poor at spelling, grammar and punctuation as anyone else in this industry. Just read any thread here, or in Qrewroom :ok::}

1a sound asleep
26th Nov 2012, 08:13
More news articles popping up Article 1 - The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...rline/story-e6frg95x-1226523807271)

RETAIL king Gerry Harvey and his wife Katie Page have emerged as surprise investors in a private trust controlled by a group of wealthy investors that has purchased a small stake in Qantas with a view to pushing for strategic change at the airline.

It is understood Mr Harvey and Ms Page have joined former Qantas chief Geoff Dixon, former CFO Peter Gregg, venture capitalist Mark Carnegie and adman John Singleton in buying a stake

None of those involved would comment yesterday, including Mr Harvey, but Mr Gregg told The Australian last week that the group was interested because "it saw value in the share price".

"The share price just doesn't reflect the value in the company," he said.
The group bought its stake through a private trust so it could not be detected by the airline.

And Article 2 The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...ofits/story-e6frg9io-1226524201447)

Given the extraordinary coverage dedicated to 1.5 per cent of the share register, one can only assume the consortium wanted their existence known in the hope of flushing out new backers and, at the very least, a firm commitment from the 16 per cent of the register that approached the team to back them to become more activist.

The consortium was formed around May and started investing in June at about $1.15 a share so it has already gained about 12 per cent or $4.7 million.

The remaining members - Geoff Dixon, Peter Gregg, John Singleton, Gerry Harvey and Mark Carnegie - have funded their stake in part with debt so the returns would be higher. So far so goodl; they made the right call.

Qantas is angry at Geoff Dixon, alleging he is conflicted in his dual role as head of Tourism Australia and also Qantas investor. That’s a stretch because Qantas should welcome new investors. If Dixon has not raced to publicly endorse the Emirates deal then that’s hardly a crime so the undisguised anger from the Qantas camp tells you plenty about its state of mind.

The concept of former executives taking pot shots at the company is, of course, plain wrong and not fair to Alan Joyce or Leigh Clifford.

It would be a different matter if the consortium had a 5 to 10 per cent stake. It may also be different if the consortium sold its plan by stating how it would operate the airline to drum up support.

ohallen
26th Nov 2012, 08:35
The concept of former executives taking pot shots at the company is, of course, plain wrong and not fair to Alan Joyce or Leigh Clifford.

Oh please save me, if they had done their jobs, engaged staff, not pissed off the government, built a business or taken strategic decisions other than selling out, the company would never have been exposed.

Ka.Boom
26th Nov 2012, 08:55
With all the talk about the consortium from the consortium they are making their target more expensive by pushing the share price up.Making a few bucks on the side I know.....

What The
26th Nov 2012, 09:58
I don't think there is a staff member alive who wants Dixon and Gregg involved in Qantas again.

We have not had a CEO worth squat since Tubby Ward. Since privatisation they have sold off, raped and pillaged the business for their own personal gain. Fellow executives have been complicit in the destruction of this once great company. They are liars and not worthy of the respect of the staff.

This country is in a leadership vacuum in all areas apart from the mums and dads who get on with living their lives despite the shit thrown at them from business, political and religious leaders.

We must tread very carefully or we are headed for an abyss that will change the Australian way of life for generations. Start asking the hard questions and demanding answers.

Sunfish
26th Nov 2012, 10:21
The value of Qantas to various people differs markedly.

To a narcissist, controlling Australia's own national airline gives them a seat at the top table in Canberra. It also means that they outrank any state premiere since they have them by the balls due to the effect on international business investment on the frequency of direct international flights.

To Carnegie and the VC mob Qantas means three billion in cash that can be paid to themselves after replacing the money with debt. Mitt Romney made millions doing this.

To Harvey, Singo and the like, Qantas is leverage over state and federal governments. You would expect to see Rhinehart and Forrest on the list eventually.

Gough whitlam got it right: " being made a Director of Qantas is the Australian equivalent to being sent to the house of lords".

AEROMEDIC
26th Nov 2012, 11:16
.... and we can only sit here and watch it happen.


Is this an "inflection point" that marks the start of the demise of Qantas?

Does Qantas now really need saving?

We can sit here and discuss this thread passionately because we care about what happens and knowing what should be done, but at the same time, watch helplessly as others group together planning to make a killing on the assets of this company.

No superhero in sight.....

Going Nowhere
26th Nov 2012, 18:16
It'll be interesting to see if Gerry still spruks his "Buy Australian made, keep jobs in Australia" line when it comes to his interest in QF, or whether he just wants to make a quick buck. :suspect:

Typhoon650
26th Nov 2012, 19:04
How can Gerry Harvey afford an airline? If you were to believe what he says every time his mug appears in front of a camera, his company is being bled dry by internet sales....

Tidbinbilla
26th Nov 2012, 19:42
Posted without comment:

Billionaire plea for cheap labour | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/business/billionaire-plea-for-cheap-labour/story-e6frfm1i-1111114687834)

And:

Cookies must be enabled | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/businessold/online-shoppers-buying-bargains-from-overseas-are-unaustralian-says-gerry-harvey/story-e6frfh4f-1225982671225)

TID

73to91
26th Nov 2012, 19:55
More News:
Agitators plan second meet with pilots (http://www.smh.com.au/business/agitators-plan-second-meet-with-pilots-20121126-2a3jn.html)



THE high-profile group of investors challenging the strategic direction of Qantas under the leadership of Alan Joyce will meet the influential pilots' union this week for a second time to outline their plans.

According to airline sources, the group, which includes venture capitalist Mark Carnegie and former Qantas executive Peter Gregg, will meet the Australian and International Pilots Association on Wednesday to further spell out the rationale behind its push.

It is the second time the pilots' union has met the group of investors since early September.

Pilots' groups have traditionally exerted a disproportionate influence relative to their size in the running of airlines including Qantas. AIPA declined to comment on Monday about the meeting.

The group of well-connected businessmen, which includes former Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon and adman John Singleton, has taken a small stake in the airline as part of a plan to eventually gain seats on the board and agitate for a major change in its strategic direction.

Mr Gregg, who is back in Australia after an overseas business trip, said on Monday that he had ''no intention of meeting anyone this week'' because he had a job to do at Leighton Holdings, where he is chief financial officer.

''As I have said time and time again, I have invested some money - it is up to these guys how they want to run that strategy,'' he said. ''I have just put some money in.''

He referred queries to Mr Carnegie, who has spearheaded the talks with unions and key Qantas shareholders. Mr Carnegie did not return calls on Monday.

The group's willingness to keep briefing interested parties reveals the extent to which it is attempting to garner support from shareholders and unions for an alternative strategy for Qantas.

Sources close to the group say it is ''very patient'' in efforts to force change, and is prepared to wait until large shareholders decide they no longer support the airline's direction.

''They will just let nature take its course,'' one said. ''Alan Joyce has bunkered down for a fight, which is keeping his arms tied from expanding [the premium business].''

Qantas has also stepped up efforts to keep onside large shareholders and unions, including the pilots.

Mr Joyce has sought to quell any nerves among his senior managers about the agitation from the high-profile group of investors. He told them in an email last week that the board had ''every confidence'' in management's five-year plan to improve the airline's fortunes.

Mr Joyce will front an aviation industry gathering on Wednesday in Sydney where he is likely to face questions about the challenges to his leadership from the group of high-profile investors.

The other unions previously contacted by the investors are believed to include the Transport Workers Union, whose members include thousands of Qantas support staff including baggage handlers.

Sunfish
26th Nov 2012, 20:35
It's very simple folks and it is exacrly as I, and others laid out after the appointment of Joyce.

The APA folk did not go away after the failure of their bid for the airline, they decided after the collapse of the sharemarket in 2008 that perhaps they could buy Qantas for a song.

Joyce was set up to fail. He has not disappointed his backers. Red Q, the entire Asian strategy, the promotion of Jetstar over mainline, fights with engineers, the debilitation of international, and the destruction of staff morale were music to Carnegie, Dixon and companys ears. This is what they wanted, expected and prayed would happen - leaving the Qantas share price around a dollar and ripe for their tender ministrations.

..and now we know they had an investment vehicle all ready and waiting.

Except they forgot just how dangerous a stupid person can be. They are always a Two edged sword, cutting off the fingers of those who try to use them.

And Joyce did the one monumentally stupid thing that Dixon, Singleton and company deplored - he invited an even bigger predator than DIxon into the fold - Emirates.

That is why SIngleton went to the press - "Curses! The prey has slipped from my grasp!" was the actual message he sent. Now Emirates is going to feast on the bones of Qantas, not Singo.

That is all there is to it. If Carnegie, Singo and company get control, Qantas is going to get asset stripped of Three billion in cash in the time honoured manner - pay management and success fees. Exotic financial instruments, etc.

Singo will be in charge of repairing Qantas battered public image. Dixon will knife baby Jetstar and roll it back into Qantas. Pressure from the lot of them will see foreign pilots and staff take over on peppercorn salaries. Maybe the Qantas sale act gets repealed.

And everyone lives happily ever after... except the poor Australian travelling public.

Collando
26th Nov 2012, 21:24
What would it take to get the ALAEA on side? And what chance of getting the AWU on side while Liv and PH are cosying up together ?

ohallen
26th Nov 2012, 21:55
I bet the Board of Leighton (which has its own major financial problems) are wondering why they are paying one of their execs so much money when they really need his expertise, and he is so frequently reported as being involved in cooking up this scheme and at times when he is travelling for Leighton as per recent media here.

Says a lot if he is involved.

A. Le Rhone
26th Nov 2012, 22:02
DO NOT TRUST THESE PEOPLE, for goodness sake.

it is not a case of "better the devil you know" or even "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". These people will never be your friends. Please QF pilots don't give further credence to somebody who refers to you as 'soft cocks'.

Potsie Weber
26th Nov 2012, 22:14
Qantas has also stepped up efforts to keep onside large shareholders and unions, including the pilots.

Huh? Oh wait, so that's why the pilots got iPads!

Condition 1
26th Nov 2012, 22:35
Although I agree that we shouldn't trust what these people say fully, circumstances are different. At the very least, they are willing to talk to us and others as opposed to simply locking us out forcing us to FWA.

the_company_spy
26th Nov 2012, 22:47
Never smile at a crocodile Condition 1!

Sunfish
26th Nov 2012, 23:03
Condition 1:

Although I agree that we shouldn't trust what these people say fully, circumstances are different. At the very least, they are willing to talk to us and others as opposed to simply locking us out forcing us to FWA.


Condition1, you are stark raving crazy. You cannot trust a single word these people say to you AT ALL, in any context whatsoever. neither can you trust Macquarie Bank or management.

You do not have the education nor experience to deal with this class of "character" and I assure you that you would find it to be a very unpleasant and traumatic education at that.

I still have scars from my education about the depths of depravity and guile these people employ, and it cost me a lot of time and money to get it.


Trust me. Any time you spend engaging with these folk will be at the very best totally wasted. the more probable outcome is that you will expose a weakness that they will exploit ruthlessly to their advantage and your detriment.


You are a fool if you engage with them in any way.

Condition 1
27th Nov 2012, 01:04
You are a fool if you engage with them in any way.

Don't disagree at all Sunfish. Also agree with never smile at crocodile comment above.

My post should have been a tad longer. It really was a bleat against current recalcitrant/incompetent management.

I agree, don't trust them. And I respect your council and experience.

Stalins ugly Brother
27th Nov 2012, 01:58
The pan or the fire????

What a choice!.............:ugh::ugh:

1a sound asleep
27th Nov 2012, 02:23
Why we must all put Harvey Norman out of business. Please DO NOT shop at Harvey Norman. He wants to give your jobs to foreign workers. You have been warned. PLEASE SHARE Billionaire plea for cheap labour | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/business/billionaire-plea-for-cheap-labour/story-e6frfm1i-1111114687834)

TheWholeEnchilada
27th Nov 2012, 03:55
You heard it on RANsquawk (http://ransquawk.com/headlines/gerry-harvey-says-has-bought-passive-shareholding-in-qantas-qan-at-27-11-2012)via ZH first:
News Headline Summary

Gerry Harvey says has bought passive shareholding in Qantas (QAN AT)

Update details: - Aussie press reported most recently that retail king Gerry Harvey and his wife Katie Page have emerged as surprise investors in a private trust controlled by a group of wealthy investors that has purchased a small stake in Qantas with a view to pushing for strategic change at the airline.
- It is understood Mr Harvey and Ms Page have joined former Qantas chief Geoff Dixon, former CFO Peter Gregg, venture capitalist Mark Carnegie and adman John Singleton in buying a stake of less than 2 per cent in Qantas well before it secured a joint venture with Emirates in September.

Print (http://ransquawk.com/print/headlines/255687) 03:09 - Asian News - Source: Newswires/The Australian

my oleo is extended
27th Nov 2012, 10:06
1a sound asleep, here here! Harvey has always been a tosspot.

Remember him crying about the fact he had to put in money out of his own pocket to host the Gold Coast Magic Millions?
Remember how he cried because people are shopping online rather than buying his overpriced cheap imported crap?
What's next, crying because people won't buy tickets on his new airline? (should that occur).
Maybe he will start fitting out the old prehistoric 767's with some of his cheap import furniture?

Nothing worse than watching a billionaire cry over money. Never mind, perhaps the next GFC will see him lose the lot? :mad: Here's to hoping:ok:

Ushuaia
27th Nov 2012, 14:07
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/qantas-cuts-ties-with-tourism-australia/story-fn3dxiwe-1226525330262)

It just gets worse and worse.

If only someone would step in, take the ball away from the squabbling children and give it to someone who cares about the ball?! Give the ball to someone who cares about the game for the sake of the game, not just what can be sucked out of the game for personal gain!

ohallen
27th Nov 2012, 14:22
This Tourism Australia issue highlights yet again the personal conflict that GD has with his fiduciary role as chairman and his personal life. Wonder if the Board and Govt will show him the same level of tolerance as the Qantas Board did a few years ago.

The pressure is mounting on all players, so lets see who can take the heat with this destructive infighting as they all seek to rape and pillage.

Sunfish
27th Nov 2012, 17:55
Cutting ties with tourism Australia? Now do you guys get an inkling of the importance of Qantas to the economy and why it should never have been privatized?

rudderless1
27th Nov 2012, 18:26
No worries , watch Borgetti place Virgin in that hole without delay!
How manufactured is the demise of Qantas? The is BS:}

rodchucker
27th Nov 2012, 18:50
If DJ was to jump on board, it would take a huge leap of faith from JB to team up with GD given the history and obvious differences in "style" let alone ethics.

But if GD was booted from TA, then that would be another story.

73to91
27th Nov 2012, 19:46
Tourism Australia is the Australian Government agency responsible for attracting international visitors to Australia and encouraging Australians to travel domestically, both for leisure and business events. The organisation is active in around 30 key markets and activities include advertising, PR and media programs, trade shows and industry programs, consumer promotions, online communications and consumer research.

So we have a government agency who's chairman has no working relationship with the 2 Australian major airlines, the Minister hasn't got the balls to sack JD.

Keg
27th Nov 2012, 19:52
If only someone would step in, take the ball away from the squabbling children ...


I agree but with one important distinction. This isn't about squabbling children. This is about two massive egoists (I think Sunfish once described them as sociopaths) trying to one up each other and using Qantas and Tourism Australia as the vehicles. At least the government can sack Geoff Dixon. We get no such peace with anyone sacking Alan Joyce.

virginexcess
27th Nov 2012, 20:56
It's a power play from Joyce. He's trying to get Dixon sacked.

Sunfish
27th Nov 2012, 21:38
Dixon has to go and probably will go today.

When Dixon left, he would have had a perfect snapshot of the Qantas management accounts, as would Gregg.

It would be a relatively simple matter for either of them to update them continuously because they know exactly how the reported metrics relate to the underlying management accounts.

They would therefore have a much better and more accurate understanding of the actual value in Qantas than any share market analyst could possibly have.

It is quite obvious what has triggered their move - the Emirates tie up. Timmy will suck the life out of Qantas instead of Dixon Gregg and Carnegie.

My guess that the current noise may be more about ramping up the share price so that they can make a profit when they sell out.

Ejector
27th Nov 2012, 23:48
Qantas cuts ties with Tourism Australia - ABC Australia Link (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-28/qantas-cuts-ties-with-tourism-australia/4396082)

The Irish Twit has had a dummy spit with old Dear Leader Dixie :{

The deepening ill feeling between current Qantas management and former chief executive Geoff Dixon has resulted in the airline severing a 40-year partnership with Tourism Australia.

Qantas this morning confirmed it had "suspended any future dealings" with Australia's official tourism agency, saying: "Qantas cannot continue to collaborate with an agency whose chairman is a member of a syndicate committed to unravelling Qantas's structure and direction." more in link above.....

clotted
27th Nov 2012, 23:52
Now do you guys get an inkling of the importance of Qantas to the economy and why it should never have been privatized?

Sunfish,
You haven't got a clue as to what you are talking about.
I worked for Qantas when it was owned by the government and while it was a warm and fuzzy place to work, the government took all the profits and the airline was starved for capital, year after year after year. No money to buy aircraft (all fancy leases) no money to buy ground equipment, no money to maintain ground equipment above the minimum, no money to paint the offices, no money to repair/replace threadbare carpets, direct government interference in industrial relations.
People might think it was bad under Strong/Dixon/Joyce. It was ten times worse when the government owned it. My guess is that about half of those who are currently employed in the group wouldn't have a job to go to if the government still owned Qantas.
Who could forget Sir Roland Wilson or Sir Lennox Hewitt as Chairman of the Qantas Board. Who could forget the various government cronies who were appointed to the board at separate times. Who could forget having to fly to Damascus and Belgrade as part of government policy with very few passengers, if any. Who could forget Qantas not being allowed to fly to South Africa as part of the opposition to apartheid campaign, but flying to Harare where all the passengers would get off the Qantas aircraft and get straight on to a South African Airways aircraft bound for Johannesburg. As part of government policy Qantas was denied profits on the most lucrative route in the world while SAA made a killing.
Those rose coloured glasses need cleaning I'm afraid.

Wunwing
28th Nov 2012, 00:44
clotted.
You make the same mistake about Qantas history that many QF leaders who came after privatisation made. You assume that you could measure the success of Qantas by its annual dividend. In fact like BOAC/BA and many others that we now call legacy airlines, the Qantas owner (Fed Govt) used it for many results other than profit. These include but are not limited too, Foreign Policy and flag waving, Defence transport, Defence maintenance, apprentice training, other training, susidised exports and the list goes on.

As far as ports such as Damascus and Belgrade, they are examples of 2 different animals. From memory Damascus was due to overflight rights. I can remember ar least once landing there,taxiing to the end and taking off, just to satisfy those requirements.I suspect Belgrade falls under the flag waving category but I also remember some pretty good loads in the right season.It was also coupled with Athens, so a typical multi sector pickup that was common in those days

The real problem now if we loose Qantas as an Australian owned and based airline, is what happens when times get bad. An Austrlalian airline will always fly to Australia even if there is no profit in it for a time. It has to, its based there.That is not the case if the operator is say, based in the ME. An Australian airline is always available for emergencies in Australia or under the direction of an Australian Government, a foreign base airline is not.And the list goes on.I suspect that at least some of the "heavy lift" capacity of the RAAF is a direct result of the loss of QF as a Government enterprise. That surely is a cost to the Nation that would not have returned a QF profit but would have reduced expenditure to the earlier owner the Fed Govt.

The loss of something as big as Qantas must have a huge knock on to employment, taxation and foreign exchange.I agree with Sunny it is too big to let go for many reasons, profit only being one of them and yes I also query the wisdom of privatising it as the end result was obvious.I also query the wisdom of privatising airports on the same grounds.There are enterprises that are better off in private hands and those that are better off in Government hands.That is becoming more obvious by the month as we look back as those enterprises that used to serve the Nation well and now only serve the owners.

Wunwing

Stalins ugly Brother
28th Nov 2012, 01:30
Again, another dummy spit by Joyce and yet another over reaction and escalation of a situation that if handled by any other rational person would have been dealt with with a little bit more maturity.

Australia had a gut full of Joyce's tantrums last year, are these pathetic dummy spits going to be a yearly event??? :ugh::ugh:

Alan, you have in the last twelve to eighteen months put offside the Government, the traveling Australian public and Qantas employees. Now the institutional share holders are getting tired of your non performances. You are making Dixon and friends look like an attractive alternative. Hell, i'm even thinking I'd prefer Dixon back! :ugh: Anything unfortunately must be a better alternative than Joyce who has done nothing but basically end the careers and future of both it's staff and Qantas Longhaul operations, next will be the destruction of short haul. I'm not delusional enough to believe Dixon and co will be our Knights in shining armour, but any alternative is better at this point than what we have at the present.

It's time for Joyce to buy that one way ticket back to ireland......... :ok:

Beer Baron
28th Nov 2012, 01:59
Seems like Joyce is saying; "If you try and get me fired, I'll try and get you fired!"

By telling Tourism Australia that their chairman has a conflict of interest and then withdrawing from a massive ($44 million) funding commitment to Tourism Australia surely puts some heat on Dixon's new job.

Ka.Boom
28th Nov 2012, 02:14
Dixon is cashed up and 70 yrs old.
Does he really care about being booted from Tourism Australia.?
If he does all it means is he has to pay for his own airline tickets.
The guy is worth about $20 million bucks courtesy of Qantas remuneration

Mstr Caution
28th Nov 2012, 02:27
One has to wonder whether the actions of Dixon & Singo where their to bait & agitate Joyce.

End result, Joyce pulls the plug on the $44M funding commitment with Tourism Australia.

Demonstrating if Joyce doesn't get his way he's prepared to:

1. Lockout employees
2. Damage the economy
3. Suspend co-operative deals with government bodies
4. Disrupt passengers.

In my estimates Dixon's rat cunning & one has to wonder how much lobbying's been done with Martin Ferguson & Institutional Investors prior to recent events.

It'll be interested to see who's the last man standing.

dragon man
28th Nov 2012, 02:34
"At Qantas we are not looking to recreate the past. We are not dwelling on earlier times. The world has moved on and we are busy taking care of today's business, looking after Qantas interests and advancing our strategy for all of our stakeholders and for all of our shareholders

Read more: Joyce uses Tourism Australia as weapon to foil plotters (http://www.smh.com.au/business/joyce-uses-tourism-australia-as-weapon-to-foil-plotters-20121128-2ad59.html#ixzz2DU6xOKu8)

What is Joyce smoking? Must be some good s**t!!!

Mstr Caution
28th Nov 2012, 02:41
and advancing our strategy for all of our stakeholders

Unless, of course your an employee or customer stakeholder.

In which case he's either happy to lock you out, make you redundant or ground you.

DirectAnywhere
28th Nov 2012, 02:45
Ka.Boom, try about 60 million bucks from his remuneration at QF.

clotted
28th Nov 2012, 03:48
You assume that you could measure the success of Qantas by its annual dividend.
Wunwing,you misunderstand what I am saying. I was making the point that under government ownership the airline was starved of capital; any profits made (and they weren't that substantial) weren't allowed to be retained by the airline for capital usage or otherwise. They were paid to the government in all circumstances as a dividend.

teresa green
28th Nov 2012, 05:00
Hopefully not a sad end to a once magnificent airline. White collar crime possibly taking place right under the noses of the people and the govt. and nobody gives a ratz, only perhaps Xenophon. Once they get hold of it, (if they do) then I imagine they will break it up and sell it off, a airline that played such a large role in the development of this country and played such a big part in WW2, and now it all means nothing, just a vessel to make rich men richer. It would appear QF has two choices (1) to be destroyed slowly by the incompetence of Joyce and the board (2) To be sold off to the highest bidder (Dixon and friends), and then Dixon can then finish the job he started and got thwarted. A tragedy for the staff either way.

theheadmaster
28th Nov 2012, 05:12
TG, I don't often agree with you, however on this I do.

QF94
28th Nov 2012, 05:20
The Dixon led buy-out should be blocked. The current QANTAS board sacked, and the government take over what's left of QANTAS until it's stabilised (not that I trust this current Labor government can do anything properly as they are fighting for their own miserable existence).

Once it's stabilised, then QANTAS should have a board made up of QANTAS employees/middle management. i.e. the like of Borghetti. Those that have served in QANTAS for a number of years to grow the company and put it back where it once was. There are currently no QANTAS people driving QANTAS in the board or the next level of management. Not even in Engineering. No wonder we are stuffed!

I would suspend trading in QANTAS until this mess is sorted. No other way around it. If you can't trade, you can't have undesirables buying you out.

The company has enough cash on hand to keep it going and it's not paying dividends. Better to run on what you have, than to dry up any funds left and have some bunch of turds coming in to strip the company for their own benefit.

Hopefully Dixon departs this world without realising his dream to buy QANTAS and strip it, closely followed by Singleton and Harvey.

1A_Please
28th Nov 2012, 05:32
Geoffrey Thomas just appeared on Ten News saying it won't happen and given his record of accuracy I now assume it'll probably happen!!!:ugh:

Keg
28th Nov 2012, 05:35
Once it's stabilised, then QANTAS should have a board made up of QANTAS employees/middle management.

I don't agree entirely with that. Group think material right there. It's always healthy to have a couple of people looking in from the outside and providing the 'outsiders' opinion. Of course, we've got group think now with all these people from the outside so it couldn't be worse than what they've been doing over the last couple of years. I think the problem is that if they're providing the 'outsiders opinion' (which I doubt), then they're certainly not being listened to.

Qantas is a corporate Columbia and Challenger but in slow motion. I only hope the loss of life is less than both of those disasters.

TheWholeEnchilada
28th Nov 2012, 05:39
QF Board Composition over time post float. Google each of the current board members along with the term "private equity". An (un)surprising number have connections to PE in one way or another.

http://www.mediafire.com/conv/023e18076915a8bb8abd7b086f1e713b8baa46b638c9a27808ccf4756161 025d4g.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?ww0w057546kk1bx)
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?ww0w057546kk1bx
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?ww0w057546kk1bx

Qantas 787
28th Nov 2012, 05:47
I don't get Pprune sometimes - the majority of you wanted Dixon gone and gave him every insulting nickname under the sun. Now Joyce is copping it and you want Dixon back in the fold?

More finger pointing should be made at the board, who have been largely unaccountable for many years.

Going Boeing
28th Nov 2012, 06:03
try about 60 million bucks from his remuneration at QF.
plus his share of the $140 million profit from the sale of the Aircraft Leasing firm that he was a major stakeholder in. Of course he won't be using any of his own money in trying to get control of Qantas.

Once it's stabilised, then QANTAS should have a board made up of QANTAS employees/middle management.
Unfortunately, all the knowledgeable managers have been punted by Joyce/Clifford as they were perceived to be "too close to the staff to be able to make the necessary hard decisions". They have been replaced by a bunch of "McDonalds managers" who know nothing about airlines but will blindly follow Joyce until Qantas collapses.

ejectx3
28th Nov 2012, 06:19
Finance guy on 2gb Ross just stated Qantas has 3 billion in cash and very little debt. Very little debt? I thought it had debt in the order of billions?

neville_nobody
28th Nov 2012, 06:32
Very little debt? I thought it had debt in the order of billions?

I think that was for aircraft which never arrived. So they have very little debt for now.......

Sand dune Sam
28th Nov 2012, 06:33
Ejectex3... Bahahaha.. Ansett had 2 billion in the bank prior to the collapse.. Or so Toomey told us.......:ugh:

TheWholeEnchilada
28th Nov 2012, 06:35
gaamaero.com (http://gaamaero.com) the website they never wanted you to see. Unfortunately they didn't understand the caching ability of the Internet Wayback Machine.

Collect the whole set in one convenient pdf file HERE (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?b9704qfbkf2kptq).

Travel back in time to see the gaamaero.com captures (http://web.archive.org/web/20110201095351/http://www.gaamaero.com/) such classics as:


http://www.mediafire.com/conv/7d2f35020dcd10cb7120333c8d5d9f1b67d9d10cb2a3f769bdfdd9c79b45 f49c4g.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?jo4f54org3d3zl9)
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?jo4f54org3d3zl9


and

http://www.mediafire.com/conv/f21973a48d28fb353708f1f013db9f4c7184e018ab182561025f966c4566 1a564g.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?8vo2vb9ja04sr6n)
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?8vo2vb9ja04sr6n


and

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?3s6l9dys2xv1x7c
http://www.mediafire.com/conv/f0c8a2313dd399489303fe5d50f614e363d2862077c58e440b6b87ecf8bf 979b4g.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?3s6l9dys2xv1x7c)


and finally


http://www.mediafire.com/conv/ba3229bc513acb1516f0a0c1e873b236ce1a17616d633281f8f5e613acac dc524g.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?foszfme570b5pd1)
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?foszfme570b5pd1

Just look at the choice of aircraft they prefer, nice and generic:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?ey0974l6gx5xr5nhttp://www.mediafire.com/conv/98e5a05dcd2099910bc180b32c07387c3fd9c10a0cdeeb251bafaf1e9fbd 927d4g.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?ey0974l6gx5xr5n)

Those 110 A320's on order just have to have a home!

QF94
28th Nov 2012, 07:08
I think the problem is that if they're providing the 'outsiders opinion' (which I doubt), then they're certainly not being listened to.


Now let's see.

Clifford - Mining guy. I see how that fits into airline thinking. Dig a hole, extract minerals and sell it.

Joyce - Involved in Ansett before it collapsed. Only ever run a LCC, and turning a premium carrier into a LCC.

Cosgrove - An Army grunt. Fire bullets and kill people. "General Cosgrove served in the Australian Army from 1965 including command of the International Forces in East Timor from 1999 until the International Forces were withdrawn in February 2000. He was the Chief of the Australian Defence Force from July 2002 until his retirement in July 2005."

Patricia Cross - Mrs Cross is a former Director of Wesfarmers Limited, Suncorp-Metway Limited and AMP Limited, Chairman of Qantas Superannuation Limited and Deputy Chairman of Victoria's Transport Accident Commission. She has served in honorary Government roles including the Australian Financial Centre Forum and the Financial Sector Advisory Council, as well as numerous charities.

Goodmanson - Mr Goodmanson is a Director of Rio Tinto plc and Rio Tinto Limited.
From 1999 to 2009 he was Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer of E.I. du Pont de Nemours and Company. Previous to this role, he was President and Chief Executive Officer of America West Airlines. Mr Goodmanson was also previously Senior Vice President of Operations for Frito-Lay Inc. and was a Principal at McKinsey & Company Inc. He spent 10 years in heavy civil engineering project management, principally in South East Asia.

Hounsell - Mr Hounsell is Chairman of PanAust Limited and a Director of Orica Limited, DuluxGroup Limited and Treasury Wine Estates Limited. He is also Chairman of Investec Global Aircraft Fund and a Director of Ingeus Limited.
Mr Hounsell was formerly a Director of Nufarm Limited and the Deputy Chairman of Mitchell Communication Group Limited. He was also a former Senior Partner of Ernst & Young, Chief Executive Officer and Country Managing Partner of Arthur Andersen and a Board Member of law firm Herbert Smith Freehills.

Meaney - Mr Meaney has extensive international experience in advisory and executive roles. He is a Director of moksha8 Pharmaceuticals, Inc and until recently he served as Chief Executive Officer of The Zuellig Group. Mr Meaney is a Member of the Asia Business Council and also serves as Trustee of Carnegie Mellon University and Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute.
Mr Meaney has had broad airline experience, having been the Managing Director and Chief Commercial Officer of Swiss International Airlines and Executive Vice President of South African Airways responsible for sales, alliances and network management.

Prior to these roles, Mr Meaney spent 11 years providing strategic advisory services at Genhro Management Consultancy, as the Founder and Managing Director, and as a Principal with Strategic Planning Associates.

Mr Meaney holds United States, Swiss and Irish citizenships.

Corine Namblard - Earlier, Ms Namblard spent 19 years with Banque Nationale de Paris, holding roles in foreign exchange, debt and equity capital markets, mergers and acquisitions, and project finance.

Ms Namblard has held numerous board positions in investee companies including South Australian-based Flinders Ports. Ms Namblard was also Chair of the Geneva-based United Nations PPP Alliance and a Transport Expert for the European Commission.

Ms Namblard holds French and Canadian citizenships.

Paul Rayner - From 2002 to 2008, Mr Rayner was Finance Director of British American Tobacco plc based in London. Mr Rayner joined Rothmans Holdings Limited in 1991 as its Chief Financial Officer and held other senior executive positions within the Group, including Chief Operating Officer of British American Tobacco Australasia Limited from 1999 to 2001.

Previously Mr Rayner worked for 17 years in various finance and project roles with General Electric, Rank Industries and the Elders IXL Group.

Strong - This is where the rot started. He is Chairman of Kathmandu Holdings Limited and the Organising Committee for the ICC Cricket World Cup 2015. He is also a member of the Nomura Australia Advisory Board and a Director of the Australian Grand Prix Corporation and the Sydney Writers' Festival.

Mr Strong was formerly the Chairman of Woolworths Limited and Insurance Australia Group Limited. He was also formerly a Director of IAG Finance (New Zealand) Limited, the Group Chief Executive of the DB Group in New Zealand, National Chairman of Partners of Corrs Chambers Westgarth and Chief Executive Officer of Australian Airlines from 1985 until 1989.

He has been admitted as a barrister and/or solicitor in various state jurisdictions in Australia.

Barbara Ward - Ms Ward is a Director of a number of Brookfield Multiplex Group companies and O'Connell Street Associates Pty Ltd and is on the Advisory Board of LEK Consulting. She is also a Director of Ausgrid, Endeavour Energy and Essential Energy.

She was formerly a Director of the Commonwealth Bank of Australia, Lion Nathan Limited, Brookfield Multiplex Limited, Allco Finance Group Limited, Rail Infrastructure Corporation and Delta Electricity. She was Chairman of Country Energy and NorthPower and a Board Member of Allens Arthur Robinson.

Ms Ward was Chief Executive Officer of Ansett Worldwide Aviation Services from 1993 to 1998. Before that, Ms Ward held various positions at TNT Limited, including General Manager Finance, and also served as a Senior Ministerial Adviser to The Hon PJ Keating.

I can see how all these people and their "qualifications" and outsiders opinions have been of great value to QANTAS over the years. Holding multiple nationalities, on boards of companies of no relevance to the airline industry (except maybe Meaney and Joyce, even though have been proven to be illiterate in carrying out their jobs).

Keg, you don't have to agree, but the proof is in the pudding. These outsiders are in positions they should not be in, and in no position to give orderly advice in how to run an airline. The problem is, that they are being listened to too much, and nobody dares to defy them, because they will be out of a job.

This is all too true in Australia. The powers that be believe they need outside "expertise" to run things locally. Both in government and business. How about having the balls to make your own decisions and not worry about importing someone elses problems to try and fix your own.

Nulli Secundus
28th Nov 2012, 07:59
There are possibly some good outcomes brewing here.

Its no secret Joyce doesn't mind escalating an issue as he's shown with last year's lock out. He won't be bullied by these thugs and therefore he arguably now has even more reason to get the share price up and rebuild the airline.

Its a huge move to suspend the relationship with TA & this doesn't help Dixon's aspirations.

Is he the guy to significantly resurrect the airline? Unlikely.
Could he boost the share price enough to make a takeover unviable? Very possibly.

Like so many others are saying here, if these 'rebels' do wrest control from the current board it won't be at all good for the airline or its staff. Let's face it, if these people really had what it takes to make (& keep) an airline great, they would have done it by now.

Don't let them get their grubby hands on Qantas.

ALAEA Fed Sec
28th Nov 2012, 08:08
Like so many others are saying here, if these 'rebels' do wrest control from the current board it won't be at all good for the airline or its staff. Let's face it, if these people really had what it takes to make (& keep) an airline great, they would have done it by now.

Don't agree. If Joyce and his sponsors stay, there will be no Qantas. They are sending it broke just like they did Ansett.

Dixon is Qantas. Joyce is Jetstar.

Jethro Gibbs
28th Nov 2012, 08:31
Dixon was Qantas. Joyce was Jetstar and Gerry Harvey will have anyone left working for nothing .

Going Boeing
28th Nov 2012, 08:33
He won't be bullied by these thugs

No, he'll bully them. Since he became CEO, bullying of staff by management has become firmly entrenched in all areas of the company.

Dixon is Qantas. Joyce is Jetstar.
Sorry Fed Sec, I normally agree with you but this time, I believe that you are wrong. We are wearing the consequences of his poor decisions now - he is no saviour of the Qantas brand.

When James Strong was CEO, he said that his period was a "consolidation" phase (post Fed government ownership) and that his successor would manage the "expansion" phase. Unfortunately, Dixon didn't stick with the plan and kept consolidating during the boom years when every airline was making massive profits while Qantas didn't have enough capacity (in both the number of aircraft or even the right type of aircraft. The reason for the further consolidation became apparent when the APA bid surfaced and it was revealed that personal greed was his driving force.

Dixon is not the saviour that Qantas desperately needs! :ugh:

Jabawocky
28th Nov 2012, 09:13
no... he long ago left the building, and smiling a rather cautious smile in private no doubt.

bandit2
28th Nov 2012, 09:35
I'm no fan of Dixon but, what has Joyce done? What did Dixon do? Joyce has talked allot, but done what? How is RedQ going?
What idiot grounds an Airline, strands tens of thousands of people, wastes millions of dollars, lies to the government & public.
Joyce has got to GO. If Dixon & his mates can do it. Bless their souls.
Better the devil you know?

What The
28th Nov 2012, 09:58
Qantas didn't expand under Dixon because Strong and Toomey didn't invest in new fleet to the extent required. They generated profits by selling the farm and got paid bonuses as a result. Qantas was left behind the eight ball through their lack of foresight. The problems with Qantas are many and varied and not one CEO has so far managed to see the real issue. It stares you in the face every day. If you leave the sheltered workshop of the Qantas Campus (WTF, it's an iconic airline, not an experiment for fresh MBAs).

teresa green
28th Nov 2012, 10:00
And then sell it off Bandit. Singleton declared on the ABC tonight that he wants to save the company, sure, and Gillard is all class. None of these blokes do anything that does not make a buck, a large buck, I would like to think they have QF at heart, but I doubt if they have a heart, and they would have already done the sums about what they would get by selling off sections, and hullo Ansett! What a mess the National carrier is in, a useless CEO and board, and hounded by carpetbaggers, it makes you want to weep.

Fliegenmong
28th Nov 2012, 10:12
Lovely to see you back TG! :ok:

73to91
28th Nov 2012, 10:17
I'm still in contact with many former staff and some have only just left in the past 2 or 3 years. All of them say the same thing, managers have no idea how to manage, they are all yes men and live for their bonuses.

As for 'outsiders' there are plenty of people who would be more qualified to sit on a 'new board' than say, the likes of Cosgrove, e.g.

http://wolseley.com.au/content/4/Our-People?profileId=10 (http://wolseley.com.au/content/4/Our-People?profileId=10)
http://www.stainlayconsulting.com/who.html (http://www.stainlayconsulting.com/who.html)

http://www.sita.aero/content/ian-riddell (http://www.sita.aero/content/ian-riddell)
To name just 3.

AEROMEDIC
28th Nov 2012, 10:47
I'm sure there's more qualified people out there, and even within Qantas, but who would want the gig?

People as good as Borghetti are hard to find.

Someone within might be best as they know how things work in the industry.

Assuming Joyce won't go easily, I wonder if some within in high places are already grooming someone right now.

Please don't let it be Hrdlicka.

ALAEA Fed Sec
28th Nov 2012, 11:13
Sorry Fed Sec, I normally agree with you but this time, I believe that you are wrong.

Never, ever, it cannot be. Well maybe it can. Look I don't think Dixon should be near our airline but I am absolutely 100% certain that Joyce and Clifford should not be. They will kill it. Dixon may kill it.

Yes I too agree that much of the mess was created by old scrotum face in the first place. The ship was sinking when he slipped into a life raft. I do think Qantas can be saved though it just needs some airline people to run it.

Something needs to give.

QF94
28th Nov 2012, 11:44
Never, ever, it cannot be. Well maybe it can. Look I don't think Dixon should be near our airline but I am absolutely 100% certain that Joyce and Clifford should not be. They will kill it. Dixon may kill it.

Yes I too agree that much of the mess was created by old scrotum face in the first place. The ship was sinking when he slipped into a life raft. I do think Qantas can be saved though it just needs some airline people to run it.

Dixon and the current board should not be allowed anywhere near QANTAS.

Dixon is a proven failure, and Joyce is a failure in the making and has been for some time.

Airline people??? None in QANTAS management. Not in the upper end of the company anyway.

There is a slight chance QANTAS can be saved, but that window of opportunity is narrowing.

Martin Ferguson (Minister for Resources and Energy and also for Tourism) should have sacked or at least stood down Dixon today for a conflict of interest in being head of Tourism Australia and part of the syndicate to buy QANTAS. But being a typical incompetent federal Labor Minister, failed, and Dixon keeps his position.

I'm still in contact with many former staff and some have only just left in the past 2 or 3 years. All of them say the same thing, managers have no idea how to manage, they are all yes men and live for their bonuses.

The current staff can tell you the same thing.

I'm no fan of Dixon but, what has Joyce done? What did Dixon do? Joyce has talked allot, but done what? How is RedQ going?
What idiot grounds an Airline, strands tens of thousands of people, wastes millions of dollars, lies to the government & public.
Joyce has got to GO. If Dixon & his mates can do it. Bless their souls.
Better the devil you know?

Neither did anything for the benefit of QANTAS or its prosperity. RedQ, GONE!!

Joyce has got to go, but Dixon and his mates should be let nowhere near QANTAS. Definitely an APA II to happen.

Suspend trading on QANTAS shares until this mess is sorted. That means the Dixon consortium's 2% holding in the company is frozen.

FlexibleResponse
28th Nov 2012, 12:50
I wonder if John Borghetti could turn Qantas around?

OchreOgre
28th Nov 2012, 13:12
Just bought a nice Sunbeam fan and top of the line Bosch dishwasher.

I went to the Good Guys (seeing as Harvey Norman/Joyce Mayne=QFdeath). After some banter, the saleslady asked if I was QANTAS. She gave me an extra 10% off! She knew what time it was. She also called GD "an old c:nt." That was nice to hear, as he really is one. Can any of you argue that?

BOYCOTT Harvey Norman/Joyce Mayne.

Captain Gidday
28th Nov 2012, 16:46
You can:t call Dixon that! He doesn't have a single feminine characteristic, such as empathy, or communication skills, in his personality.

As for Strong, if you delve into the records, you'll find it was Strong who ordered the A380. Strong spent a lot of time researching what customers actually wanted and trying to give it to them. If you recall, he also spent a lot of time briefing staff, particularly the pilots. Usually attended meetings monthly and soaked up a lot of flack from certain quarters but was always well briefed and knew his stuff. He took the time to actually figure out what was going on around the place.

Dixon promised to come to a pilot briefing once, but welched and sent Gregg. J:yce has never attended any function with 'line' staff, as far as I know. So wouldn't have a clue what's going on in the field. I'm pretty sure the only Qantas pilot he's ever met would be John Travolta. [Saw them together at the 90th Birthday bash].

teresa green
28th Nov 2012, 19:43
Thanks Fleigenmong, you just get the shites about the whole thing, but realise QF's strength is with its staff and former staff that are prepared to fight till the end, to keep this Icon going. For whatever your reason for saving this company, its worth fighting for, because we all know out there somewhere is someone who can do it. I think its Ralph Norris, some might have other ideas, but in this country there is someone, who has the dedication, the know how, the resolve to turn this company around, and the ability to get the staff behind them, and then watch QF hum. The question is can we find that person in time?

Bagus
28th Nov 2012, 20:10
What is wrong if Dixon is trying to sell of Jetstar,Joyce has sold off International division to Emirates,

neville_nobody
28th Nov 2012, 21:28
Unfortunately there is nothing stopping Dixon et al from doing to QF what News Ltd did to Ansett. QF can regroup and restructure now, but if new owners flush the cash aka Murdoch, then flog off the remains it will be history repeating.

Valley of Hinnom
28th Nov 2012, 21:50
Toomey didn't invest in new fleet to the extent required. Name from the past! Doesn't seem to have done any better with APNG. He has just been shown the door. Wonder if a Dash 8 accident report is about to be released by Sid? Me thinks 'yes'.
Absolutely

VH-Cheer Up
29th Nov 2012, 04:17
Drama queen, more like...

Master of drama: Qantas CEO Alan Joyce (http://www.leadingcompany.com.au/leadership-styles/master-of-drama-qantas-ceo-alan-joyce/201211293163)

Hempy
29th Nov 2012, 04:52
and in other news (http://www.skynews.com.au/sport/article.aspx?id=821028)

brrrrmmm....

Acute Instinct
29th Nov 2012, 05:43
For god sake man, take a good look. The way a man rides a motorcycle says alot about how he conducts himself in the real world.
Your bluffing your heart out, and got way too much firepower. Who are you kidding? There is one person I know of for sure. Yourself.
Step away from your profession, and who are you? Alans big brother.....you the man.......

ejectx3
29th Nov 2012, 06:01
Um.......what?!

Sand dune Sam
29th Nov 2012, 06:38
And none of you ever saw this moment coming?....I guess we all live in a sheltered world at some stage in our life....no offense, but if I was a QF guy, I would be using it as a job search allowance..get out while you can....I worked for another icon of Australian aviation before it went to the shitter in 2001...Dicko et al have screwed it for you blokes... The blind arrogance shown by the QF management team over the last 11 years beggars belief....nothing against you QF blokes... But get real... Every empire will crumble one day.or if it doesn't crumble... It will NEVER be the same..

SIUYA
29th Nov 2012, 07:04
Valley of Hinnom...

Name from the past! Doesn't seem to have done any better with APNG. He has just been shown the door.

Was he 'pushed' or did he walk?

Wonder if a Dash 8 accident report is about to be released by Sid?

I thought Sid had left the AIC? :confused:

Qantas 787
29th Nov 2012, 07:11
"Assuming Joyce won't go easily, I wonder if some within in high places are already grooming someone right now.

Please don't let it be Hrdlicka. "

Please no.

The only one who should be considered is Strambi - at least he knows what he is talking about and attends more employee related events/presentations than the CEO does. We could do a lot worse than have him running the place.......

What The
29th Nov 2012, 08:08
Strambi is a dud! Can't lie straight in bed.

rodchucker
29th Nov 2012, 08:46
Anyone notice that in todays press Boston Consulting have been appointed to review Jetstar strategy.

Surprise surprise, consultants continue to reign. Wonder what the management actual do to earn their money???

AEROMEDIC
29th Nov 2012, 09:01
They've always made it up as they go along.

73to91
29th Nov 2012, 09:28
rodchucker, is the other mob, Bain & Co, still around?

Reason being I was told about this position,
SEEK - IT Strategy Manager - January 2013 Start Job in Sydney (http://www.seek.com.au/Job/it-strategy-manager-strategy-innovation/in/sydney-cbd-inner-west-eastern-suburbs/23607280)

and this requirement caught my attention Experience working for Bain & Co or McKenzie or back to the thread topic

Romulus
29th Nov 2012, 10:24
Experience working for Bain & Co or McKenzie


I wonder if the genius who placed the ad meant McKenzie or were they really thinking of McKinsey...

gobbledock
29th Nov 2012, 10:52
Anyone notice that in todays press Boston Consulting have been appointed to review Jetstar strategy. Surprise surprise, consultants continue to reign. Wonder what the management actual do to earn their money???
Perhaps Boston Bruce will make a comeback? He could introduce free make-up on whatever airline survives. I thought that with the departure of BB that would be the end of Boston. Hindlicker has her own favourite Consultants so the news was certainly surprising.
It really is entertaining watching vultures circling the dead carcas, all wanting to pick the meat off the bones before nothing is left.

It is a crying shame what has happenned to the Roo. Any Government with a set of plums would have never let this rape and pillage occur.

Jabawocky
29th Nov 2012, 10:59
Any company like Qf or JQ that needs to hire consultants like that.......was never much of a company. :ugh:

WOFTAM



QF94 seems to have summed it up quite well.

If you ask me......could not organize a root in a brothel with a fist full of fifties! :ugh:
Sad but true..........


Will it end before I burn up all my FF points:uhoh:

Keg
29th Nov 2012, 11:13
Will it end before I burn up all my FF points

Woolies vouchers Jaba. You can burn them all in an instant. They're not as good value as flights but you can use them whenever you like and they're better value than the TVs, iPads, iPhones, etc on there.

Mstr Caution
29th Nov 2012, 11:23
Perhaps Boston Bruce will make a comeback?

As part of the quick exit, he was kept on as a "consultant"

So I assume he's never left the Qantas gravy train, I mean payroll.

teresa green
29th Nov 2012, 23:22
Acute Instinct, are you Kevin Rudd? Just thought I would ask.:confused:

ejectx3
30th Nov 2012, 04:27
I wonder if Alan will revoke Darth, Singo and co's chairman's lounge membership?!

Acute Instinct
30th Nov 2012, 04:28
Considering the 'anonymous' nature of this forum, your question regarding my identity is inappropriate. Having said that, make no doubt, the highest of office in our country are continually monitoring this site and many others like it. Particularly at this difficult time in our IR history.
Kind Regards,
KR747

ejectx3
30th Nov 2012, 06:00
If that's the case then.....Julia and Tony can you cut the crap and start fixing the disaster that is Australian politics right now?

Love from pprune.

Stalins ugly Brother
30th Nov 2012, 07:06
Anyone considered that this lovers tiff between Joyce and Dixon could all be just an act?

Consider that speculation of Dixon and co were always rumoured to be on the prowl for a slice of Qantas. And his meetings with Joyce on a weekly bases were beginning to be put under the spotlight, then they ceased.

Now, the pair have a public bust up. Seems all very orchestrated to me.

My guess is that this was part of the plan so it looks like Joyce is giving a fight to protect Qantas from these evil pariahs, meanwhile executing Dixons plan that was put in place back in 2008. My guess is Dixon will miraculously get what he wants, Joyce will cry, and then get a golden parachute for millions of $$$$$$$$$. The carve up will happen and Joyce will have a win again due to his stock options.

Anything is possible with these clowns!!! :ugh:

hewlett
30th Nov 2012, 07:43
I'm with you comrade!

Arnold E
30th Nov 2012, 07:53
Now, the pair have a public bust up. Seems all very orchestrated to me.

Looks like that to me too Bro.

QF94
30th Nov 2012, 08:04
Having said that, make no doubt, the highest of office in our country are continually monitoring this site and many others like it. Particularly at this difficult time in our IR history.
Kind Regards,
KR747

If that's so, then here's a message for the female K9 in the PM's position. Concentrate on running the country and stop being such a misandrist. As for the rest of the Labor party, pull your heads in. It's becoming more and more difficult to tell the difference between the government and QANTAS management.

A famous quote - “Australia is a lucky country run by second-rate people who share its luck.”

The same can be said for QANTAS!

QF94
30th Nov 2012, 08:06
Anyone considered that this lovers tiff between Joyce and Dixon could all be just an act?

This is why trading in QANTAS shares needs to be halted. The current board sacked, and the mess sorted out. Dixon should be removed as chairman of Tourism Australia if he persists in being part of the syndicate to buy QANTAS, or retain his position, and withdraw from the buyout.

Angle of Attack
30th Nov 2012, 08:09
Acute Instinct

LoL

ejectx3
30th Nov 2012, 08:33
The grand plan plays out as orchestrated over a Shiraz in the rocks ....

S70IP
30th Nov 2012, 08:47
Stop looking at the two "Japanese fighting fish" having it out over the scuba man blowing bubbles and look at the other one sitting in the corner next to the seaweed.
Waiting to eat what's left.

theheadmaster
30th Nov 2012, 09:46
QF94, who, exactly, do you think can call a trading halt? If such a halt is called, how long is it allowed to last? If there is a halt, what would that signal to the market, and what would that do to the share price? Would such a share price movement be beneficial or a hindrance to the takeover syndicate?

QF94
30th Nov 2012, 10:19
theheadmaster,

That's who can call a trading halt.

Trading Halts - Australian Securities Exchange - ASX (http://www.asx.com.au/resources/trading-halts.htm)


What will it signal to the market? The market already believes the company is a basket case.
What did the shutdown of the airline signal to the market last year?
What has a $200+million loss this year signalled to the market this year?
What has the more than halving of the share price signalled to the market?
What has no payment of dividends signalled to the market?
What has the slashing of international routes and downsizing of the company signalled to the market?
What has the failure of RedQ in Malaysia signalled to the market?
To hinder the takeover, the current board has to be removed. Geoff Dixon needs to be either sacked as Chairman of Tourism Australia, or abandon his bid for QANTAS due to his conflict of interest in both roles.

This charade that Dixon has fallen out with Joyce is just that.

Maybe the government, for all they're worth, needs to step in and take control of the airline, and not let it be taken over by a private equity company to only be broken up and sold off.

The share price as it stands, barely equals the cash on hand in the company. Then there's assets such a aircraft, property, equipment, FF program, Lounges, etc. The company is worth more than the share price suggests. Why wouldn't the likes of Dixon, Singleton, Gregg, Carnegie and Gerry Harvey buy it and then break it up and flog it off?

I would say this is reason enough to call a halt.

This is an APA II in the making.

theheadmaster
30th Nov 2012, 12:22
QF94,

So, as you found, for a 2 day halt, it has to be called by Qantas, that is, by Joyce. Why would he do that?

Who is going to sack the board?

Do you think the government is going to save Qantas? They have just bet the bank on being able to balance the budget. Any buyout would be a threat to that.

My job is at risk too. I don't trust Dixon or Joyce to run the company either, I just don't think a trading halt is the answer you think it is.

Sunfish
30th Nov 2012, 19:38
Don't attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity.

Joyce was promoted by Dixon precisely because Dixon knew he would take the airline in the wrong direction so as to make it a cheaper takeover target..

And Joyce has done exactly that.......

My guess would be that over those cosy lunches, Dixon would have encouraged Joyce in his follies:

- red Q

- Jetstar Asia, Vietnam, Japan, etc.

- Hatred of unions.

- investment and promotion of the bastard child - Jetstar.

-grounding the airline.

- suppression of International.

...and probably a lot more.

Dixon and more especially singleton know exactly what has been done to Qantas - deliberate cannibalization of the Qantas brand

......but not quite enough to destroy the brand name, just enough to destroy the share price.

Most importantly, I believe Singleton already has the brand rejuvenation strategy written and under lock and key.

Dixon would also have the operational plan to be executed when they seized control and took it private.

The elements of that are:

1. Immediatly roll Jetstar into Qantas.

2. Terms and conditions to drop to Jetstar levels.

3. Employ first class professional management, get rid of the obvious dead wood and extra layers of management associated with the wasteful, costly and inefficient "group" structural bullshit.

4. Singo will find a new face for Qantas and a whole new positioning statement and marketing plan that will exceed the impact of the "still call Australia home" shtick.

But of course all this will be done in private and you will never find out how much money these people would have made...

But then Joyceee does the ONE stupid thing that even Dixon didn't count on - gift the whole mess to Emirates.

Lest you think this is fanciful, this type of strategy is exactly what Kerry Packer employed to get control of crown casino from his "friend" Lloyd Williams, and he got it for a song.

Keg
30th Nov 2012, 19:41
Anyone else think this may just be a bit of share market manipulation? Dixon, Carnegie et al buy in at 1.16 and talk up the prospects of a take over. Share price rallies in the short term and they sell out for a tidy little profit of 20-30%.

These guys would take that return over a 6 month period.

AEROMEDIC
30th Nov 2012, 20:44
Sunfish,

Except for the Emirates deal, the whole plan amounts to conspiracy to manipulate the Qantas share trading. If you have something concrete, pass it on to the ASX.
As for Dixon and co. I wonder if they will be able to stump up enough to put themselves in a position that matters.

I have say though, that Joyce doesn't have any immunity from stupidity.

Mstr Caution
30th Nov 2012, 23:06
One does have to wonder if the height of the Industrial Action last year was none other than a manufactured crisis to present a share price buying opportunity.

moa999
1st Dec 2012, 00:50
Mstr Caution,

I think you're right on the money there.
I was walking through the dessert yesterday and came across an oasis filled with beautiful women wearing Emirates uniforms (well it couldn't be Qantas). And I thought about 2011

There were no union officials saying we will "slow bake" the company
No protestors at the AGM
No go-slows / work to rule
No ambit claims put forward
No announced strikes forcing cancellations and disrupting lots of passengers and causing people to book on the competition
No intention from 30% of customers not to fly Qantas
Qantas was making massive profits in an extremely uncompetitive industry and could happily hand out Qantas stamped gold ingots to all customers

And then I remembered... ohh Joyce did ground the company for absolutely no reason. The Federal government levied massive fines on Qantas, the Board was sacked, Joyce was charged by the police for making a false complaint, and indeed the FWA found 100% in favour of the unions.

It was all about the share price.

waren9
1st Dec 2012, 01:11
if it is a short term thing, these blokes must be sailing pretty close to insider trading.

maybe the joyce/dixon charade is 'sposed to give it all an arms length appearance

teresa green
1st Dec 2012, 03:13
A excellent post Sunfish. I have spent some time thinking about all of this, and something in my head says something is not right, I think Sunfish you have answered it. These blokes would sell their mothers pacemakers if the price was right, and so it starts to fall into place. Does Jackson think the same, his interview on Sky the other day tells me he sniffs something wrong, very wrong, he was incredibly cautious, and gave the impression that he is not at all sure what is really going on. What I would not do to see the staff and retired staff along with sympathisers, grab control of this company, pie in the sky I know, but it has been done before, thirty six thousand ready to put some money in, thirty six thousand ready to gain control, put in a CEO who knows what they are doing, everybody give 110% and watch her fly. Dream on TG, dream on.:hmm:

FYSTI
1st Dec 2012, 03:15
All warfare is based on deception

--
Sun Tzu

MR WOBBLES
1st Dec 2012, 03:34
Posted 24/8/2011

GAAM, Fly Lease

Now to some fancy flying by a stellar cast of local investors who have been the force behind the country’s second-biggest aircraft leasing business Global Aviation Asset Management and have now managed to sell it to US-listed FLY Leasing for $US1.4 billion. FLY is the former Babcock and Brown aviation leasing business and boasts former B&B execs Trevor Lowensohn and Phil Brown as its advisors. The merry cast at GAAM cashing in on the deal include former Qantas boss Geoff Dixon, his former CFO and former Leighton CFO Peter Gregg, former Allco boss David Coe, John Singleton and private equity investor Mark Carnegie. This team is now looking at multiple investment opportunities and Dixon has told The Australian Financial Review that they are looking to put together a bid to take over the management of the $6 billion portfolio of RBS Aviation Capital, the fourth-largest aviation leasing company in the world.

Spotl
1st Dec 2012, 04:51
Interesting read:

Mr Dixon has also found an ally in his former Qantas colleague, John Borghetti. On Thursday night, Mr Dixon met Mr Borghetti, who is now the boss of Virgin Australia, over a pinot noir at the swish Rockpool Bar & Grill in Sydney's CBD. The pair talked about Virgin broadening its funding commitment to Tourism Australia, which will go a long way to filling the gap left by the exit of Qantas.


Read more in today's Sydney Morning Herald:

Inside the rebels' lair: how a Qantas coup was hatched (http://www.smh.com.au/business/inside-the-rebels-lair-how-a-qantas-coup-was-hatched-20121130-2amdq.html)

A. Le Rhone
1st Dec 2012, 07:59
Frank Lorenzo and Michael O'Leary will also launch a bid, AIPA to greet them with open arms too?

ejectx3
5th Dec 2012, 00:33
Made my day

TIMA9X
7th Dec 2012, 01:41
Who would have thought... Qantas - Joyce & Dixon Fall Out Over Strategy - 7.30 Report December 2012 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/8WaPzOqYebk)

ul0dgCQzaJ8

dedicated to all who have to endure. :)

so much going on this week I posted the wrong version video, sorry about that ejectx3 for getting the posts out of order,

Merry Christmas and a happy new year to all on here. Keep the faith!

tima9x

spelling_nazi
7th Dec 2012, 02:03
made my day as well.

Condition 1
8th Dec 2012, 04:47
How much does that self proclaimed expert Geoffrey Thomas get paid...

The Green Goblin
8th Dec 2012, 05:07
I wish Geoffrey Thomas (aviation expert) would shut his pie hole and retire.

Wake up Geoff!

ejectx3
9th Dec 2012, 00:00
Interesting, all four protagonists still chairman's lounge members. Surprise surprise.

TIMA9X
12th Dec 2012, 21:18
Power plays in the tussle for Qantas - The Drum - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-11/fullerton-power-plays-in-the-tussle-for-qantas/4421128)
Unwinding the deal with Emirates would be like unscrambling an egg. It might as well be a shareholding that Emirates would have in Qantas, given the level of commitment on both sides.Probably the best summary of the situation from ABC's Ticky Fullerton (http://www.abc.net.au/news/thedrum/ticky-fullerton/3299526).... I found the comments very interesting as well.

Jingle bells,

Livs Hairdresser
13th Dec 2012, 02:00
Thought this comment in the above article by 'Ex QF Management' was an interesting read:

Ex QF Management:
12 Dec 2012 12:00:26am
It amazes me how poorly researched "investigative journalists" in this country really are. They generally regurgitate company spin and never really look at the numbers in any great detail.

Jetstar was never a good idea; no full service carrier in the world has successfully managed to do what Qantas management have attempted to do.

Jetstar Asia has never made a true operating profit. It has bled Qantas to the tune of $70M + per annum since its inception in 2004. Loss to the group $500-700M.

Jetstar Pacific prior to its nationalisation by the Vietnamese government in 2012 cost its parent $50-60M per annum just to keep the doors open, stated by the CEO of that airline himself in the Vietnamese Post. Do a simple google Ticky. Founded in 2007 thats at least $200M blown.

Jetstar HK. $100M and they haven't even got approval yet.

Jetstar Japan another $100M.

Jetstar international ex Australia, $500M loss, its inception in 2008 dovetails neatly with QF international's sliding "profitability". QF international is not haemorrhaging money of its own accord, it is paying for all these disasters out of its operating profit. Where else do you think the money is coming from??

John Borghetti himself stated privately that Jetstar has never made a cent in any of its incarnations. A simple close look at load factors vs revenue of each operating segment shows that. Yet the mainstream media just regurgitates the tripe QF management has been spinning for years.

The only reason these airlines where created was to park 110 Airbus A320's. Aircraft whose leases were going to GAAM amongst others, routed through Ireland and onto the Caymans and The British Virgin Islands. Guess who was profiting from those?

That's the primary reason why Joyce was placed by Dixon in the top job and why Borghetti was sidelined. Because he wouldn't play ball. Buchanan was fired because he wrote a paper outlining the fact that the low cost carrier model does not work beyond 5 hours flight time. In house legal resigned, company secretary resigned, company auditor, resigned. All left the sinking ship fearing the mother of all corporate collapses.

Joyce took it too far due to his ego being completely bound by the folly that is Jetstar and was facing a corporate collapse soon enough due to his utter ineptitude and inability to run an airline. Any airline.

They were trying desperately to do a deal with Temasek in Singapore until the 11th hour but couldn't get it over the line for the simple reason that SQ management detest Qantas management, as do Cathay. Joyce was a dead man walking and in desperate need of any deal to save his skin.

Emirates saw a bleeding man and took full advantage. Qantas is doomed with this man at the helm and frankly it is a sad state of affairs where a Dixon alternative is the preferred option.

Simple maths, the year Joyce became CEO in 2008 Jetstar international ex Australia was launched. The Qantas group made a $1.6BN profit in 2008 of which Jetstar's domestic reported contribution was a negligible amount, less that 10% of the total. A figure which in itself is questionable seeing as Jetstar's costs have always been subsidized by QF international. This was on the back of multiple record profits over many years.

Every year Joyce has been CEO has seen a substantial drop in operating profit, share price, no dividend etc, culminating in a disastrous grounding which cost over $200M, a massive figure allocated of course to the international division and pre-planned long in advance of it actually taking place.

The often quoted drop in passenger numbers to 18% of the total Australian traffic is again, a furphy faithfully regurgitated by the Chairman's lounged mainstream financial media.

The Qantas group still holds 28% of the total, 10% of Qantas International's traffic having been gifted to Jetstar International and Jetconnect since 2008, neither entity having made a profit since inception. This "gifting" dovetails precisely with Qantas International's supposed demise. The gifting of that 10% not only cost mainline 100's of millions in set up and operating costs it also robbed mainline of the revenue it would have earned throughout this time. A double whammy. The Qantas group incidentally held 34% at the time of privatisation in 1992.

All for a series of Jetstar airlines that no one aside from those who work there, the hapless CEO who "created" it , and the bankers at GAAM and Investec who profited from the aircraft leases generated by their expansion, would mourn its passing if they were made to stand on their own two feet.

A shareholder activist take over of control at QF would be the best thing that could happen at this time. This is a completely different proposition to the APA bid, a bid incidentally that Joyce was a great cheerleader for and which would have netted him in excess of $20M had it gone through, something he has conveniently forgotten now. One wonders how much he will be making out of the Emirates deal if it goes ahead. A question nobody seems to be asking, if Qantas is such a basket case, why are the ex managers of the business so keen to buy it? What do they know that the market hasn't been told?

Qantas should not be in this position, however now that it is, it is a matter of national security if nothing else that the Emirates deal is stopped and the senior management and Board are replaced with people who have full service airline experience, many of whom (me included) jumped ship and are now happily at Virgin under Borghetti, the man who should have gotten the nod in the first place.

In his own words to a management conference call not so long ago, "We have nothing to worry about whilst Joyce is running Qantas."

Stalins ugly Brother
13th Dec 2012, 02:39
You can understand why Dixon and co are getting upset at the moment. Joyce is making them pay $1++ a share for a take over where as he is giving it to Emirates for free! :ugh::ugh:

Mr Qantas
13th Dec 2012, 08:58
I Geoff Dixon comes back I might come out of retirment. fantastic leader.

AEROMEDIC
13th Dec 2012, 10:17
If Geoff Dixon comes out of retirement, it will be the end of Qantas.

Kiss goodbye to the accumulated reserves, any possibility of engagement of employees and staff morale superglued to the bottom of the "give a damn" gauge.

Sunfish
13th Dec 2012, 16:16
Livs hairdressers post quoting "Ex Qantas manager", if true, is the most explosive thing I've ever seen on PPrune.

What he appears to be alleging is that Jetstar is terminally unprofiitable and a scam to channel lease funds out of Qantas.

If this doesn't shake the board to its foundations then it's time for ASIC and the ACCC to act.

My guess is that the Board will act and that Alan Joyces resignation will be announced Christmas or Boxing day.

For a start we need to rule out the possibility that the major shareholders hiding behind the nominee companies are not one and the same as the leasing company

ALAEA Fed Sec
13th Dec 2012, 21:28
What he appears to be alleging is that Jetstar is terminally unprofiitable and a scam to channel lease funds out of Qantas.

I've been saying this all along. Qf International is still profitable, they are just propping up these failed ventures. We asked those 61 questions based on a thread started on here and never got answers. The answers will be subpoened in a case we are running on our job security clause as we claim that Qantas are deliberatey being unprofitable to create reasons to sack staff. Any info we get will only be able to be used in the case but it will all be on the public record.

moa999
13th Dec 2012, 22:03
So Fed Sec - looking at other premium airlines in the Asia Pac region
Cathay makes a whoppin great loss for 1H
Cathay Pacific reports HK$935m net loss for H1 2012 (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/cathay-pacific-reports-hk935m-net-loss-for-h1-2012-375261/)
And Singapore barely makes a profit last quarter
Singapore Airlines Profit Falls 54% as Cargo Loss Triples - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-02/singapore-air-posts-lower-than-estimated-profit-on-cargo-slump.html)

What makes you think Qantas International is making a profit with
- older, more expensive planes
- uncompetitive depreciation rates
- high terminal charges and gate fees at home hiubs
- chunk of costs in AUD which has appreciated

And that's without talking about labour costs.

Livs Hairdresser
13th Dec 2012, 22:13
Kiss goodbye to the accumulated reserves

I'm not so sure this will be the case. Singo has mentioned Qantas' cash reserves in a couple of interviews. If the consortium really did have ulterior motives to extract this cash I highly doubt Singo would have said anything about it at all. In any case, if I'm wrong it doesn't make much difference whether that cash goes to line Dixon and co.'s pockets or to help prop up Jetstar in its various forms, it still won't be going to mainline.

Look, I think Dixon was an absolute disaster for Qantas. APA, wrong aircraft, Jetstar ... the list is endless. But the damage Dixon did has been totally eclipsed by Joyce. Believe me when I tell you, I thought long and hard before typing the next sentence. I think we should sit down and listen to what the consortium have to say.

Firstly, as minority shareholders without any significant support they will be negotiating from a position of weakness at the moment.

Secondly, they are making all the right noises and in a public arena.
Stop the Emirates deal ... tick
Sell Jetstar ... tick
Get rid of Joyce ... big TICK

If they can convince us that they genuinely intend to do this we need to make a bullet proof, legally binding and very public agreement with them detailing the future direction of the company and the place of Australian employees in this brave new world, in exchange for union support.

Otherwise we can always walk away ..... straight back into Alan's lovin' arms.

TheWholeEnchilada
13th Dec 2012, 22:42
Singo can't stop talking about getting 3 for 1, that is $3 Billion for $1 Billion. He & his cronies have an interest that extends no further than their own bank accounts.

Once they have their hands on the cash, Singo will perform emotional CPR and resuscitate & rehabilitate in the public's mind the QANTAS BRAND IMAGE of old, IPO it to the greater fools, and then it will collapse under its own weight of accounting trickery and fraud. That is one you can take to the bank.

Banker's like Carnigie will have already established an exit strategy prior to even contemplating an entry.

The fact that apparently rational people will consider this group to be viable in the long term as an alternative validates the Stockholm Syndrome.

ALAEA Fed Sec
13th Dec 2012, 22:49
What makes you think Qantas International is making a profit with
- older, more expensive planes
- uncompetitive depreciation rates
- high terminal charges and gate fees at home hiubs
- chunk of costs in AUD which has appreciated

Their real yields. Take a look at their load factors (from BITRE website) and then do a search on their ticket prices. Their fares are significantly higher than other airlines and they are still selling seats.

You are off the mark listing the AUD as a problem. They buy fuel and aircraft in the now cheaper US dollar whilst still colecting fares in AUD. Paying wages has not fluctuated in relation to the dollar but the other two are now far cheaper than 10 years ago.

schlong hauler
13th Dec 2012, 23:32
A little bird told me the 7:30 report was going to do a big report on Jetstar Asia losses and the internal company financial support for Joke*. It was pulled at the last minute for more politically relevant segments. Perhaps they are saving it for when things get quieter. From the Annual report.
ASIC GUIDANCE
In December 2011 ASIC issued Regulatory Guide 230. To comply with this Guide, Qantas is required to make a clear statement about
whether information disclosed in documents other than the financial report has been audited or reviewed in accordance with
Australian Auditing Standards.
In line with previous years and in accordance with the Corporations Act 2001, the Review of Operations is unaudited. Notwithstanding
the Review of Operations contains disclosures which are extracted or derived from the Financial Report for the year ended
30 June 2012, which has been audited by the Group’s Independent Auditor.

600ft-lb
14th Dec 2012, 00:18
UNRECOGNISED DEFERRED TAX ASSETS
Deferred tax assets have not been recognised with respect to the following items because it is not probable that future taxable profit
will be available against which the Qantas Group can utilise these benefits:

Tax losses – New Zealand operations $13million
Tax losses – Singapore operations $8million
Tax losses – Hong Kong operations $5million

Sunfish
14th Dec 2012, 01:00
Livy, the syndicate will do the following:

1. Pay itself 3 billion in Qantas cash via management fees and a whole raft of other devices.

2. Come up with a great story about the "new" Qantas.

3. Replace the 3 billion by borrowing it from banks and super funds. a high yielding unsecured notes issue to the public would be another way.

4. Walk away with a Two billion profit. They don't need to give a flying fcuk about the airline once they have borrowed the cash.

This is the Bain Capital model beloved by mitt Romney.

Livs Hairdresser
14th Dec 2012, 03:14
G'day Sunfish,
Yep, that's a real possibility. I just don't understand why if that was their intent, Singo would be blabbing to the media about it at the same time that the consortium is trying to get support from the unions. He's a smarter man than that. Also, if the cash was their main objective, wouldn't it be fairly easy for the current QF management to counter that threat? Hostile takeovers take time and if it ever looked as though it had the remotest chance of succeeding the current management could take that $3B and, say, retire some debt with it. Problem solved.

But let's say I'm wrong. That's why I suggested we need to get a legally binding agreement with them. They won't agree to invest the $3B in mainline, walk away. They won't agree to keep Qantas onshore, walk away. At the moment, they probably need us more than we need them, which is probably the only reason they want to talk to us.

At the very least, entering discussions with them will not be a good look for QF management and will further draw media attention to their incompetence.

and then it will collapse under its own weight of accounting trickery and fraud.
How would that be any different to now?

The fact that apparently rational people will consider this group to be viable in the long term as an alternative validates the Stockholm Syndrome.
Dunno about Stockholm Syndrome but I would say that we are getting desperate. Unfortunately it looks like this consortium is realistically the only other option at the moment, and the company is rapidly approaching PNR. Dixon might kill Qantas, but Joyce definitely will kill Qantas.

TheWholeEnchilada
14th Dec 2012, 04:02
Liv, if you close your eyes and think of the words "John Singleton", what is the first thought that comes to mind? For me it is ADVERTISING. He is an expert in the science of modern propaganda ("The aim of modern propaganda is no longer to modify ideas, but to provoke action." -Jacques Ellul (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Ellul)l, Propaganda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda:_The_Formation_of_Men%27s_Attitudes)).

He is first and foremost a salesman, and he is "selling "you a future, his future: a vision of returning a once glorious airline to its proper and rightful place in the Australian psyche. In your case, he has provoked action, to suspend disbelief and back HIS plan and actively attempt to convince others, against all the uncomfortable feelings you clearly have.

The reason he wants to do a deal with the unions is to garner their support, to back his plan against that of the current managers in Canberra and fund manager suites. He is expecting the unions to then put the pressure on whoever he believes will achieve his objective.

The rock solid iron clad guarantee won't be worth the paper its printed on once the asset strip & looting has been completed and the carcass is left behind into bankruptcy/liquidation/re-organisation.

There is a well established historical account of the looting process engaged in by managers of Singo's ilk. Think of this paper, by 2001 economic Nobel Prize winner George Akerlof as their template: Looting the Economic Underworld for Profit (http://www.signallake.com/innovation/Looting1993.pdf).

Sunfish
14th Dec 2012, 04:45
Liv, I don't have time to explain. Replacing the cash with debt will kill the airline. Spending the cash to retire debt will kill the airline. Joyce will kill the airline and Dixon will kill it as well as you know it.

What you are watching is the hyenas fighting over who gets to eat the body. At this stage it will be Emirates that gets to eat the lions share.

Without the sudden appearance of a management group that has an interest in Qantas going forward as a going concern as an Australian owned public company, it has no future. It is currently the plaything of some very rich and greedy people.

None of them have any interest in what the staff think or want. None of them have any interest in what the public want. None of them have any concern for the tourist industry or the national interest. Everything they do is strictly legal, but is it moral?
And the small mum and dad shareholder? Hahahahahahahahahah!

The Green Goblin
14th Dec 2012, 04:57
It doesn't take a genius to figure out where the money is in aviation.

Let the airline take all the risk selling tickets and providing infrastructure. The real money is made in owning the airliner and leasing it to the airlines. The leasing company gets paid regardless. It gets a guaranteed hourly rate. There is barely any risk, palm it off to another airline if need be. The model is in huge demand anyway. It will always make money. Half the times they don't even own the engines. If one goes bang, the power by the hour manufacturer slaps on another and the cash game continues.

Have a look at how many different shelf companies own the major airlines fleet in Australia.

So who is tied up with all this? That is the question. I wonder if Joyce has his fingers in any of those pies.

Conflict of interest?

Livs Hairdresser
14th Dec 2012, 05:22
TWE,
Agree with everything you've said there. You are right, I don't feel comfortable. The thing is, the uncomfortable feelings I have about Joyce continuing to run the company outweigh the uncomfortable feelings I have about dealing with the Dixon group. I wish there was another option but there isn't.

I guess one advantage is we are aware what they are capable of and we can try and mitigate the threat. At this stage, the onus is on them to convince us (legally) that they will not asset strip the company and will act in Qantas' best interest, or we walk away. And even if that is the end result, if we can make Joyce look like a fool in the process then it will have been worthwhile.

Sunfish,
When you get time, can explain why retiring debt will kill the airline? I can understand why it's not optimal but I don't see how it would be the end of the company.
Everything they do is strictly legal, but is it moral?
None of it's moral, and the only things that are legal are what they can't get away with :mad:

Sunfish
14th Dec 2012, 21:42
Livvy, "debt" covers a multitude of things. What matters is what
Kind of debt it is. Is it credit card (17% paid by the month) or long term debt like a thirty year mortgage fixed at 5%? You don't want to pay off that sort of debt.

Airlines generate simply huge cash flows, look at the fuel bill for example. As a result they need huge amounts of working capital which I'm pretty sure the three billion covers.

The standard Bain and company trick was to take a company private, strip out all the cash in management fees, dividends and god knows what other instruments. They then find a banker greedy and stupid enough to lend the company money to replace the cash usually by offering really high rates. They then sell their shares to some wood duck and walk away. The company may very well fold under the weight of debt servicing costs but by then the culprits are long gone.


To put that another way, think of buying a Rolls Royce, pulling the engine out, selling it for $$$$$ and replacing it with a Hyundai four cylinder engine from a wrecker. You then sell the car again as a Rolls Royce. Yes, bankers are that stupid.

ALAEA Fed Sec
14th Dec 2012, 22:19
Yes, bankers are that stupid.

I don't know if bankers are that stupid. They are pulling similar scams in their companies and running off before they collapse with bags full of loot.

600ft-lb
14th Dec 2012, 23:38
Bankers aren't stupid they are chasing a loophole in the system that allows this.

What is stupid is the simple fact that its totally legal to stump up a miniscule amount of money, get a massive loan and use the soon to be purchased company as collateral for the loan. Pay themselves exorbitant management fees and suck the cash out.

When companies fail after that sort of purchase, the banksters should be put in jail because they are pieces of shit in society. They contribute nothing but profit to their own bank account and destroy the lives of those in the way. No wonder they were strung up at various times in history.

TIMA9X
16th Dec 2012, 12:04
Qantas & Virgin Australia look for new Asian partners: China Eastern for Qantas, Cathay for Virgin? | CAPA - Centre for Aviation (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/qantas--virgin-australia-look-for-new-asian-partners-china-eastern-for-qantas-cathay-for-virgin-91791)

Qantas & Virgin Australia look for new Asian partners: China Eastern for Qantas, Cathay for Virgin?

Qantas (http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/airlines/qantas-airways-qf) and China Eastern (http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/airlines/china-eastern-airlines-mu) are nudging each other for a deeper partnership to cover Australia (http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/countries/australia)-China (http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/countries/china) traffic flows. Feelings are warm on both sides; all that is missing is the time and resources to complete a deal. Qantas (http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/airlines/qantas-airways-qf) is busy with its Emirates (http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/airlines/emirates-ek) partnership as well as continuing network improvements, including its loss-making international network, while China Eastern is a slower moving company and concentrating on its own rapid expansion. The two of course are also busy with their joint venture LCC, Jetstar Hong Kong (http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/airlines/jetstar-hong-kong).

Their thunder may be stolen by a more agile Virgin Australia (http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/airlines/virgin-australia-dj), which has set as its next strategic development a partnership with another Asian carrier – and one most likely to be in North Asia to facilitate better connections around the region than Virgin can achieve with its Asian partner Singapore Airlines (http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/airlines/singapore-airlines-sq).
Cathay Pacific (http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/airlines/cathay-pacific-cx) could be a strong partner for Virgin: besides network synergies, they both share a common competitor in Qantas (http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/airlines/qantas-airways-qf). A stumbling block is that Cathay (http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/airlines/cathay-pacific-cx) and Qantas (http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/airlines/qantas-airways-qf) are both members of oneworld (http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/global-alliances/oneworld), but Cathay is an ambivalent member, and either way global marketing alliances are losing muster as partnership dynamics revert to a bilateral focus.
Sort of confuses things a bit....? :uhoh::hmm:

never a dull moment.. the game is on again in Asia for Qantas (not J*..?)..... Hmm :hmm:

if anything, this Gregg, Dixon, Carnegie, Singo play on QF talk, has got em all wound up.... off to the supermarket to get some of that microwave popcorn.. suspect a bit of "PR word mincing" going on here...:rolleyes:



Meanwhile, over at TA, it appears GD is clawing back some of the lost dosh from Q pulling out of its relationship... not sure where all this is headed....,:confused:


Etihad fills the Qantas tourism breach

AIRLINE giant Etihad will today sign a $6 million strategic partnership with Tourism Australia, giving the government's tourism body unprecedented scope in selling the nation to the world.

Etihad fills the Qantas tourism breach | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-news/etihad-fills-the-qantas-tourism-breach/story-e6freuzi-1226537911922)

Ka.Boom
17th Dec 2012, 00:28
The elephant in the room.
Watch for a tie up with Virgin

moa999
17th Dec 2012, 01:17
Tima9x,
Not exactly new news.

Joyce at Press Club 9 October, just after EK deal announced
Dubai will complement Los Angeles and Dallas, the gateways to North America; Santiago for South America; Johannesburg for Southern Africa; and Singapore and Hong Kong for Asia.
Emirates will complement our relationships with American Airlines, LAN, South African Airways and China Eastern, along with oneworld™.

Ka.Boom
Agree on China Southern as a match for Virgin - more virtual networks, Southern does all the flying but Virgin helps with distribution... something Cathay doesn't need as much.
Albeit not sure how happy Singapore and Etihad would be given the promotion China Southern is putting in to the Canton Route to Europe

ohallen
17th Dec 2012, 01:18
not sure where all this is headed

Pretty sure that DJ is circling QF with powerful friends and serious firepower, so Dubai is going to look like the desert from Australia.

If Cathay was pulled off then that just about does it all in routes. Reputational damage to QF would be significant, but they don't seem to care about that unless it suits the bigger game at play.

Taildragger67
17th Dec 2012, 03:11
For gawd's sake, why China Eastern?

If Qantas wants access to greater China, what the blazes is wrong with Cathay / Dragonair?!

TIMA9X
17th Dec 2012, 03:15
Not exactly new news.

Joyce at Press Club 9 October, just after EK deal announcedYMC7IynxIYk


moa999, Agree, in fact this video goes back to March... I should have written it better... what I meant to say was who is teaming up with who...? brand Qantas or Jetstar... both very different products... which is confusing the punter. For me JB is much clearer with his announcements/direction for Virgin Aus and partners... Joyce is all over the place... one minute he talks about Jetstar, then it all lurches back to Qantas, then it becomes Qantas group.. which is it? I think it is clear, punters who chose brand Qantas expect to fly Qantas with no surprises like ending up on a J* codeshare flights.

If Qantas wants access to greater China, what the blazes is wrong with Cathay / Dragonair?! yep, I agree

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Zrd56Wsodfk/UM6QhXFpO1I/AAAAAAAAAbM/GX68q5dWDhk/s650/001%2520airline-groups-2012%2520-sydney-airport.jpg?gl=US

moa999
17th Dec 2012, 09:39
Cathay/Dragonair is useless if you want to fly around inside China.

All flights go to/from HK.

---

Also totally unsure why Scoot and SilkAir are in the above picture.
Neither have any benefits for Virgin flyers.

DrPepz
17th Dec 2012, 16:03
VA codeshares on nearly all Silk Air flights. Velocity frequent flyer members can earn miles and status credits on Silk Air flights as well.

Scoot - no benefits to Velocity flyers.

Taildragger67
18th Dec 2012, 02:49
Moa,

Understood but is the idea to benefit from internal domestics, or accessing a destination? How much Australian-originated domestic traffic is there?

That is, is QF trying to benefit from domestic say Kunming - Xian, or from traffic going between Australia and Xian (necessarily going via an intermediate port)?

I'd assume the latter, in which case QF should be agnostic as to the intermediate port but rather should be concerned with the customer experience in getting the punter to their destination.

Personally if given a choice in getting from Oz to anywhere in the PRC, I'd suggest most Oz punters might have a preference for Cathay / Dragonair.

Freehills
18th Dec 2012, 07:10
For gawd's sake, why China Eastern?

If Qantas wants access to greater China, what the blazes is wrong with Cathay / Dragonair?!

What does Qantas have to offer Cathay/ Dragonair? They fly to SYD/MEL/ADL/BNE/PER/CNS. So QF gives them HBA/ DRW/ Alice Springs and Broome.

moa999
18th Dec 2012, 10:31
Freehills, exactly....

But then to be honest I can't quite work out what Emirates sees in Qantas, or indeed Singapore and Etihad see in Virgin apart from access to the FF program, with Cathay already has access to via oneworld

I also suspect Cathay was never exactly that happy with Qantas flying HKG-LHR (now stopped), and the Jetstar HK thing.

600ft-lb
18th Dec 2012, 12:06
I also suspect Cathay was never exactly that happy with Qantas flying HKG-LHR (now stopped), and the Jetstar HK thing.

somewhat comparable to hub based airlines dumping unlimited capacity on any number of Australian ports?

I think the benefit to CX/SQ/EK/EY capacity dumping A380's and 777's multiple times each day to every major city in this country somewhat outweighs a single 747's worth of pax to LHR or a pesky, hopefully 18 airframe by 2015 upstart.

MrWooby
18th Dec 2012, 23:50
China Eastern, very high standards.
Heard on Melbourne centre a few days ago, "China Eastern xx, wind at Melbourne 220/15 knots, 12 knots crosswind runways 27 and 16, runways wet, which runway do you prefer ?
"Ah China Eastern xx we take runway 34"
"China Eastern xx cleared Arbey arrival runway 16"

Ultergra
19th Dec 2012, 02:29
Gold Mr Wooby!

TIMA9X
29th Jan 2013, 21:28
Qantas suitors sell out, pocket millions: report

Former Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon and a group of investors agitating for change in the airline have sold their stake, netting about $18 million, a report says.
Mr Dixon, Leighton finance boss Peter Gregg, financier Mark Carnegie, ad man John Singleton, and other investors sold their reported 1.5 per cent stake in the airline's shares on January 22, The Australian Financial Review reported.
The trade of 24.9 million shares at $1.52 each, which was worth about $37.8 million, was brokered by Credit Suisse who was also the seller, the newspaper added.
The consortium had bought into the airline when Qantas' share price collapsed in June, it was reported.
Advertisement
In November, Qantas severed its 40-year-partnership with Tourism Australia after saying its chairman, Mr Dixon, who ran Qantas from 2001 to 2008, was in a position of "untenable potential conflict".
The airline had wanted Mr Dixon to step down as chairman or disassociate himself from the rebel group.
In December, Virgin Australia stepped in to fill the void, increasing their current partnership to $12 million over three years

Read more: Qantas suitors sell out, pocket millions: report (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-suitors-sell-out-pocket-millions-report-20130130-2djne.html#ixzz2JPF0zSj8)
Nice little earner.....

Qantas contras led by Dixon sell strategic stake | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2013/01/30/qantas-contras-lead-by-dixon-sell-out-stake/)

Joyce needs to bring Qantas back into the business of nationally coordinated tourism promotion, even if Qantas can no longer claim with conviction to be the Spirit of Australia unless we mean ‘spirit’ as in ‘dead’.background video
8WaPzOqYebk
.

jaded boiler
29th Jan 2013, 21:35
Awaiting assorted bon mots and incisive cutting edge commentary and critique from the resident self-anointed sage and soothsayer of all matters corporate and aviation related, sunfish...

IsDon
29th Jan 2013, 22:26
I thought you must have been talking about Geoffrey Thomas there boiler. Everyone knows he's the expert on all things aviation. Just ask him. At least his Chairmans' Club mates think so.

AEROMEDIC
29th Jan 2013, 22:51
Dixon and co. certainly weren't the losers in this debacle. After talking it up, a paltry purchase of shares didn't give enough grunt to gather support from concerned institutions as they expected.
Had they received support, it would have opened the door to an even bigger trough in which to put the snouts.
They now pocket tidy little sums and turn to the next project.

Qantas survives as there's no significant or lasting damage from this, the share price is still up and Joyce and co.get on with "business".

The losers however, are the long suffering shareholders, who still won't see a dividend for years and the staff who will continue to be under a considerable amount of duress for some time to come.

ohallen
29th Jan 2013, 23:02
The dinners can start again now, I suppose.

Bootstrap1
30th Jan 2013, 03:49
F.O.G once again.

Twin Beech
30th Jan 2013, 04:03
Pardon my cynicism, but who released this news item? Dixon & Co? To what end? To depress the share price a bit ? To allow them to churn their shares for a 4% gain in the week to come?

An ordinary shareholder's calculus is pretty simple. Binary, even: Will the stock rise or fall. Dixon et al aren't ordinary by virtue of the size of their holding and their overweight reputation in the market. They might think the stock has no upside, or they think they might do better short term elsewhere with their finite amount of funds, or they are engaging in performance art to engineer a price dip. Next week might be revealing.

TIMA9X
30th Jan 2013, 08:59
Pardon my cynicismIt's not just you, interesting comments from Mr Pascoe

Buy a small stake in a company, let it be known that you're a ginger group with some high-profile names, allow stories to circulate about a possible coup or maybe even that numbers are being sought for something bigger, become a factor in the share price rising – and then quietly sell out for a fat profit. Nice work if you can get it and that's what the Carnegie/Dixon/Singleton/Gregg boys got with their Qantas game (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-suitors-sell-out-pocket-millions-report-20130130-2djne.html).
Nothing illegal about that, of course. It is not insider trading. But, in my opinion, it's reasonable to wonder if it is something rather like insider trading.
Having the Carnegie gang on the books and known to be agitating for change at Qantas certainly did the Roo's share price no harm. It has outperformed the market since the ginger group surfaced in late November.
You might think that exiting that stake – with about an $18 million profit, according to the AFR (http://www.afr.com/p/business/companies/dixon-group-sells-qantas-holding-DdHxLNkYkFfBEAhj1Nq1LO)- could cause the Qantas share price to fall. And it did. From the $1.515 close on Tuesday, Qantas shares dropped three per cent to a low of $1.465 this morning before partially recovering. At lunch time, it was still off 1 per cent in a higher market.
Advertisement
That's why you naturally wouldn't inform the market of any intention to sell before the action. You're not required to. You'd be silly to.
As the vendor though of such a high-profile "activist" stake, did the Carnegie crew have price-sensitive knowledge that the rest of the market did not? It's a reasonable question.
If you can build a reputation as a bit of a raider, just your name appearing on the register is enough to lift the share price and ensure a profit. Back in the wild old days of the '80s, Ron Brierley's Industrial Equity and similar souls did it regularly. Often enough, the emergence of a supposed raider's name could destabilise a company's register and trigger a bid from another party. Money for jam.
Of course, to maintain credibility, a raider needs to follow through occasionally. According to the AFR report, the 1.5 per cent Carnegie stake in Qantas was only held via certificates for difference – handy for a quick speculation, a little gamble, but an expensive way of holding stock for more than the short term. Maybe they were never really serious anyway.
The market might now wonder just how credible Carnegie and friends are the next time they pop up. Oh, that's right, they already have – as associates of Gina Rinehart on the Fairfax register.
Such games are further signs of a stock market turning bullish

Read more: Gingering up a Qantas profit (http://www.smh.com.au/business/gingering-up-a-qantas-profit-20130130-2djxg.html#ixzz2JS2CXq00)


they are engaging in performance art to engineer a price dip. Next week might be revealing.

I guess all we can do is just that, wait.....

Ka.Boom
30th Jan 2013, 09:22
They sold out on the 22nd Jan.
The QF price has been pushed up by the QF share buyback.
The buyback helped them jag a profit of $18mil and Joyce helped them do it.
Money for nothing...and chicks for free

Romulus
30th Jan 2013, 11:34
Possible three card trick

1) buy in, get media exposure, ramp speculation to the max, rumour goes out
2) sell out on boosted price, make little media, let someone else note it, be careful to make as small a statement as possible and in no circumstances comment about future ownership of Qantas
3) buy in on dropped price which has been further depressed by those who bought in speculating on a takeover exiting long positions etc.

Somebody should also check the options position. Often that is the area of greatest interest as it is where massive leverage can be applied and profits of multiple times (even 1000s of percent) can be made. Control a thousand shares for a hundred bucks and away you go.

Sunfish
31st Jan 2013, 04:52
Boiler:

Awaiting assorted bon mots and incisive cutting edge commentary and critique from the resident self-anointed sage and soothsayer of all matters corporate and aviation related, sunfish...

My only comment is that the Boyz can do it again if they wish.

Captain Gidday
31st Jan 2013, 10:18
George W Bush had a saying for that

ejectx3
31st Jan 2013, 23:23
Yeah but he would have stuffed up the quotation of that saying...

73to91
6th Feb 2013, 09:35
'Seismic shift' - Joyce praises Emirates tie-up (http://www.smh.com.au/business/seismic-shift--qantas-praises-emirates-tieup-20130206-2dxvx.html)


Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce insists that the standoff with his former mentor Geoff Dixon has not been resolved despite a group of rebel shareholders selling their stake in the airline.

Speaking in Sydney today, Mr Joyce said Mr Dixon’s conflict of interest remained because the ‘‘issues were more broader in terms of ambitions in what was going to happen in relation to Qantas’’.

Mr Joyce has demanded Mr Dixon step aside as Tourism Australia chairman or dissociate himself from the group of high-profile investors who had been agitating for a change in strategic direction at Qantas.

Qantas has made clear that it will ditch funding for Tourism Australia after June unless the group states publicly that it has given up on attempts to undermine the airline’s management.

Conflict beyond shareholding

Mr Joyce said he would not comment on who was on or not on Qantas’s share register but ‘‘as far as I was concerned the conflict didn’t relate just to the shareholding’’.

‘‘There’s a number of ways the conflict could be resolved and it is up to the
people involved in it to resolve that conflict,’’ he said, without elaborating.

Apart from Mr Dixon, the group of dissident Qantas shareholders included Sydney financier Mark Carnegie, the former Qantas executive Peter Gregg and adman John Singleton.

The consortium sold down a 1.5 per cent stake in Qantas last month for a tidy profit. As part of an agreement, each member of the group was required to sell their holdings after a decision was made to take the profits made since they bought in shortly after Qantas shares reached a low of 97 cents last year.

Tourism Australia’s chief executive, Andrew McEvoy, attended the lunch at which Mr Joyce was the guest speaker but declined to comment. The peak body’s board has backed its chairman in the bitter feud between the pair.

Mr Dixon also declined to comment.

Adapting to strong dollar

The impasse comes as Mr Joyce warned that Australian businesses will have to become accustomed to a high Australian dollar.

Coining it the ‘‘normal Australian dollar’’, he said Qantas was counting on the high currency remaining for the foreseeable future, and businesses had to ensure that their strategies were ‘‘robust enough’’ to cope.

‘‘You have to plan on that. Our ideal is that the dollar would be around 70 cents to 80 cents. It would make a big difference to the economics but you can’t count on it,’’ he said.

Qantas sees no Dreamliner delay

Despite the problems besetting Boeing’s 787 Dreamliner aircraft, Qantas has not been informed by the US manufacturer Boeing of any delays to the delivery of its first 787.

Qantas’s budget offshoot, Jetstar, is scheduled to take the keys to the group’s first 787 in August.

‘‘We do have contingencies if there are further delays in the aircraft,’’ Mr Joyce said. ‘‘We managed to cope with a four-year delay in the aircraft so far. But we want to have the aircraft as soon as possible.’’

Mr Joyce said multiple investigations were continuing into the problem but ‘‘nobody was aware of what exactly has caused it and what are the potential solutions and fixes’’.



Read more: No end to Joyce tiff with Dixon (http://www.smh.com.au/business/no-end-to-joyce-tiff-with-dixon-20130206-2dyfc.html#ixzz2K746fAkS)

I was told the AJ spoke to Ross Greenwood tonight on radio.
Alan Joyce | 2GB (http://www.2gb.com/article/alan-joyce)

adsyj
6th Feb 2013, 09:57
Those boys played everyone off a break and cleaned up.

I agree with the tone of Pascoes article, not insider trading but certainly used their media connections and names to get the stock moving. The corporate world really is a grubby place.

Romulus
11th Feb 2013, 10:56
Those boys played everyone off a break and cleaned up.

I agree with the tone of Pascoes article, not insider trading but certainly used their media connections and names to get the stock moving. The corporate world really is a grubby place.

The game is not yet played out.

That sum of money is peanuts for them. And even more importantly if they walk away then any future target knows they fold their hand for a very small pot. The loss of reputation is not even remotely paid for by that sum.

TIMA9X
25th Apr 2013, 07:16
The game is not yet played out.and
Speaking in Sydney today, Mr Joyce said Mr Dixon’s conflict of interest remained because the ‘‘issues were more broader in terms of ambitions in what was going to happen in relation to Qantas’’.

Mr Joyce has demanded Mr Dixon step aside as Tourism Australia chairman or dissociate himself from the group of high-profile investors who had been agitating for a change in strategic direction at Qantas.All is quiet from TA as Joyce teams up with BOF & NSW tourism. I guess he will do the same for Victoria, Qld, SA, WA etc in the not to distant future. :hmm:
.
Bcuq2im4HM8

.

Sunfish
25th Apr 2013, 20:35
I doubt that Qantas will team up with anything VIctorian, their worldview is that nothing Australian exists outside Sydney, more particularly the harbor and beach side suburbs.