Ryanair Pay v's Costs for Cadets

[Mr Boombastick]

Hi,

I'm trying to find out a breakdown of pay v's costs for new starters at Ryanair....

I know cadets are required to pay for security passes, uniform etc etc but how much does this all actually cost?

I would also like to know what the starting wage is whilst on line training? And what it rises to after the 500 hrs?
I have read so many different accounts and would be very interested to hear from someone who has recently been through it and actually knows as opposed to a bitter and twisted trol who has nothing positive to add!

There was a really interesting post made by a guy which gave his full breakdown of costs over his first year, this was quite old though and I am aware things have declined a bit since then.

I'd really appriciate it if we could just keep this on topic! I have read the vast majority of the slagging about the company, please just don't bother if you haven't got anything positive to contribute although I'm not holding my breath!!

Please feel free to PM me with details if you would rather.

Many Thanks

[shaun ryder]

Do new starters get paid by ryanair?

I always thought it was the other way around?

[16024]

Hmm...
That didn't take long did it?!
Been there, done it.
Don't do it.
Just some friendly advice from a better place.

[dannyalliga]

I'm trying to find out a breakdown of pay v's costs for new starters at Ryanair....

First of all: new starters MUST pay social security in the country where they are assigned to base according to the new EU law : EUROPA - PRESS RELEASES - Press Release - Social security: improved and simplified rules for aircrew and cross-border self-employed workers (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-12-710_en.htm)
Therefore a breakdown should be made according to where Ryanair will decide for you to be based and that is decided after your line traing if successful; bear in minf that social contributions vary greatly between different countries.

During your line training you only start getting paid after safety pilot release so up to then you will have paid well over 30.000€ between type rating, hotels and food.
Once you start getting paid you can deduct the TR cost monthly from your LTD (they will have you become a LTD director in Ireland), before you reach 500 hours you will be making between 2 and 3000€ average but again, this was before the new EU rule and is always dependent on how many hours you fly and lately there are way too many F/Os and 1 flying day out of 5 working isn't unusual. I hear of many F/Os flying barely 40 hours lately.
After the 500 hour mark you can expect to make between 3 and 4.5k depending on hours flown but bear in mind that these numbers include TR deductions and Irish social security so a new breakdown would have to take into account much higher SS and a 1k cut after your TR has been fully deducted (approximately 1.5 years after start of line training).

All in all a damn pathetic deal if you consider paying for uniform, car park, food, drinks, renting a place at base,own loss of licence, own pension scheme, own hotels for out of base and sim training etc.

[MaxReheat]

.........and people actually sign up to this?:{

[Mr Boombastick]

Thanks very much Dannyalliga, an interesting read.

Any ideas how long it takes for safety pilot release, or is this on an individual basis?

I know it's not fantastic but there's no taking away from the fact that after a few years (perhaps more now with reduced hours), you will have an unfrozen licence and some good experience to enable you to go looking for better T&C's.

If you speak to anyone in pretty much any industry they all say "it's not what it used to be!", this is certainly true of the medical and teaching profession, building trade, the police, fire service etc etc. Times have changed and you can either chose to roll with it and open doors or moan and not create any opportunitys for yourself in the coming years.

Thanks for your input.

Cheers

[ROSCO328]

Times are changing because people like you are willing to hand over anything so they can to fly a jet. Crazy.

[DutchExpat]

Times are indeed changing ask the guys and girls in AirFrance KLM CargoLux and Netjets all considered in the last few decent employers. Pensions for pilots almost don't exist anymore and everybody will go through a layoff or two these days.

[Artie Fufkin]

Just curious about the tax situation for, say, a UK pilot based abroad.

Do you pay local social security, Irish corporation tax and finally UK income tax when you pay yourself a dividend / and or salary from your company?

[Callsign Kilo]

Positive

By and large a good standard of training. It IS a training airline.
Extensive route network offering operational variety
Stable roster pattern which has maximum advantage if you are at your desired/home base
Ticketless/free jumpseat system for commuting

Negative

Massive financial outlay
Zero pay for most of your training / low pay from safety pilot release to 500hrs on type. Payment rates for FOs appear to continually reduce.
No guarantee of base
Largely no guarantee of annual hours although Storm suggest a guarantee of 30hrs per month (Therefore the minimum and only guarantee would be 330 hrs per year accounting for the compulsory month off)
Likely reduction in future prospects as expansion has ended ie time to command will increase
Complex taxation system. Many query it's legality
Increasingly seasonal position
Top heavy with FOs

[CEJM]

Rubbish.

Every pilot starting in the industry now will pay for their type rating in one way or another.

:mad: I can name at least one airline in the UK where you don't pay for your typerating AND get a decent salary from the moment you sign on the dotted line.

[boredcounter]

Groundie question, I think very relevant?

Have you over committed financially?

[Check Airman]

dannyalliga (http://www.pprune.org/members/303392-dannyalliga),

Very interesting post. Here in the US, we often envy our EU brothers, but Ryanair shows that sometimes your own grass is greener.

From a regional pilot perspective, I wonder why on earth anybody would sign up for that? Paying for parking, training, hotels etc?

Pray tell, what is the allure of Ryanair? How do they find people to sign up for this? What draws people to this company?

[doniedarko]

.....because with after 160 hours (Total time) you can be sitting in the RHS of a nice shiney B737.....and your foot on the first rung of the ladder. Opportunities in Europe are limited to say the least. While I agree with the sentiments of not paying for training etc, its a very lonely place to watch class mates and colleagues get employed and get experience while you sit at home unemployed with nothing but your principles to keep you warm.
Ryanairs expansion is now over (no more deliveries) so it is only a matter of time before the 'cadet' factory ceases production. The word will get out "oh yeah you get a type rating but no flying"...

[1013.25mb]

I know it's not fantastic but there's no taking away from the fact that after a few years (perhaps more now with reduced hours), you will have an unfrozen licence and some good experience to enable you to go looking for better T&C's.

Its not that simple though. Airlines with "better T's & C's" as you put it, are struggling to stay afloat because of this very business model that people subscribe to. The employee cost base is simply higher at other airlines thus reducing profits thus reducing T's & C's. Better T's & C's will not be around when you reach the 2500-3000 hour mark, up unless you plan to move to the Middle East, and it isn't all that great out there now.

"We" as a community of pilots need to stop this self destructive process that we have allowed happen. The only way we can do this is via a union, but they seem (as is usual with unions) all words, no actions.

[olicana]

Anyone got any current figures regarding what a fo takes home after tax at Ryanair.

[ryanmaverick]

yeah,better stay home unemployed waiting for the call of a company who gives me 10000 euros,free type,5 stars hotel....then wake up at 35 and discover im too old to be called.

[172_driver]

Anyone got any current figures regarding what a fo takes home after tax at Ryanair.

Depends on FO's experience, contract type, hours flown, tax regulations, tax deductions (and now SI legislations). Too many variables to give a good answer. Would guess the median to be around 3000 euro/months at this time of the year.

[Callsign Kilo]

Would guess the median to be around 3000 euro/months at this time of the year.

If you are talking about net and during the winter then as an average then that figure is very very ambitious.

[AirbusA320.Easyjet]

You are technically buying a Job from them. The overall cost of the whole type rating programme is well above €32k, and that only secures you a 6 month contract, and the contract isn't even with ryanair, you are contracted to work 6 months for a company that distributes pilots to Ryanair. I think the company is called Brookfield Aviation. And even after all this balooney, you're getting less than €2k a month. You're just buying a temporary contract here.

[PigeonVoyageur]

I don't know where you have got your information from, but I must say that you are a bit out of date regarding "6-month contract only", "Brookfield" and "net pay of less than Eur2k/month".

[Enzo999]

Go on then astound us with the current T and Cs on offer to cadets at Ryan Air. free type rating, 50k a year salary, LOL plus PHC insurance, 35 day paid holiday, Sick pay, Pension, Union recognition???????

No? Thought not!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

I bumped into a FR cadet last summer trying to find the best place to settle down for the night as he was sleeping in his car for a week, I kid you not.

[MaverickPrime]

Go on then astound us with the current T and Cs on offer to cadets at Ryan Air. free type rating, 50k a year salary, LOL plus PHC insurance, 35 day paid holiday, Sick pay, Pension, Union recognition???????

No? Thought not!


I'm not a RYR apologist. But, can you name anywhere that is offering those sorts of T&Cs to cadets, because I'll be at the front of the queue!

[Say Mach Number]

Enzo999 sums up the confusion over Ryanair. Yes cadets dont get many things because they are contractors. However all is not as it seems.

Being contractors works for 'them' as most dont pay much if any tax (legit) for the first few years while they claim their training costs back via expenses.

As soon as the the training costs dry up and the tax starts kicking in they apply for a Ryanair contract - smart move.

If they can get one and when on a permanent contract they get a pilots allowance to cover LOL/PHC/Medical etc

Not sure what it is for FOs but UK Capts get £6000pa to cover all the above. Thats money is yours to do what you with. As far as FR is concerned you can get on a flight to Vegas with the missus and lob it all on black they dont care its just comes into your salary every month.

Of course now being being FR employees they get Paid Holiday/Sick Pay and enrol in the company pension.

With no seniority, good quality training, interesting route network and new planes, a command is in the offing after 3000 hours if they are up to it or its gained them enough experience to go and play with BA's, Emirates or China Southerns train sets which is where most seem to go.

Ryanair is not perfect but its a foot in the door and better than a kick in the balls.

Short term pain for long term gain - possibly somewhere else.

Ps trying to be balanced if thats possible in a Ryanair thread.

[UAV689]

A massive load of out of date and nonsense here...as usual!

New cadets at Ryan are all paid via storm contract (the new and improved Brookfield......) which means after the sim duductions of 4.50e per hr you are paid <500 hrs on type 50.50e, after 500hrs on type (about 7 months on line) 65.5e, and after 1500hrs 70.5e. Full time Ryan contracts vary by base and country, and the storm contract is paid that rate regardless of base. Once eligible for upgrade you can get 8e an hr extra, and any out of base you get additional 20e per schedule block hr. All pay is schedule block, so when the French strike and your on ground with a slot it's all unpaid...

Tr cost, 29500e. Also need to factor in rent+food for about 8 weeks. All unpaid.

After training, for around 20 sect max you will have safety pilot, so no pay, but this is normally only a week. During line training pay is about 30e per hr, for about 80-90 sectors.

Hrs vary by base, STN/dub is always busy, 800-850per yr. smaller bases vary, and in the winter these smaller bases chop and change very quickly so not ideal. The canaries is a good one, with all days being around 8hr block, you work 10 days a month down there.

Tax. You are now forced to use their nominated accountants. Each have their pros and cons, but they are more legit than in past, which means people are paying social security as an employer and employee...MOL likes to shirk his responsibilities on social security...while you have expenses you can work tax free, for around 18month - 2yrs. Or, pay some small tax and drag expenses out longer. Some FO's whilst on the expenses train clear 6k e a month. After expenses used up, in uk expect to lose 35-40% to tax.

Holiday pay, none as contractor, one month unpaid leave to be taken as one, and 10 days to take unpaid as you wish. Can be hard to get approved. Sick pay, zero.

Pros, if based at home, great roster, otherwise get used to commuting. Most people get base of choice eventually, at the moment due to crew shortages people get bases very quick. Quick upgrade, option to work in sim as an fo and become a tri, secondments on to Learjet fleet if that takes your fancy, lots of experience very quickly due to network and high hrs rosters. Lots of opportunities to become ltc when upgraded if that is your thing. Well maintained fleet. Cons, contractor status, fear of tax man coming knocking, no protections, no sick pay, lots of unpaid work (everyday during preflight is all unpaid..every turnaround unpaid, every slot unpaid...). Buy your uniform, pay your car parking, pay for your id.

A lot of long timers at Ryan, 20+ yrs, so can't be all that bad.

[crablab]

:mad: I can name at least one airline in the UK where you don't pay for your typerating AND get a decent salary from the moment you sign on the dotted line.

I can think of an airline like that too... I wonder if it is the same one? If so, it is the *only* airline that does it but you do have to spend 12 months doing office work first

[APU_inop]

What is the payscale for experienced FOs? ie 5000-ish hours on type?

[172_driver]

To put things in another perspective, the Ryanair TR is maybe the cheapest one you can do out there (despite the regular price increase, it was only 27 000 euro a few years ago). The reason being it's your company that pays for it, not you with your privately earned, taxed, money.


New cadets at Ryan are all paid via storm contract (the new and improved Brookfield......) which means after the sim duductions of 4.50e per hr you are paid <500 hrs on type 50.50e, after 500hrs on type (about 7 months on line) 65.5e, and after 1500hrs 70.5e. Full time Ryan contracts vary by base and country, and the storm contract is paid that rate regardless of base. Once eligible for upgrade you can get 8e an hr extra, and any out of base you get additional 20e per schedule block hr. All pay is schedule block, so when the French strike and your on ground with a slot it's all unpaid...


All the same as the Brookfield except the rates have been dropped when > 500 hrs, >1500 hrs and the 'command ready' rate.


What is the payscale for experienced FOs? ie 5000-ish hours on type?


Experience (or loyalty) is not valued in Ryanair. You will earn the same as all other FOs. With that I mean, there is no special contract for you just because you've got plenty of hours. Contracts vary by base.

[UAV689]

To put things in another perspective, the Ryanair TR is maybe the cheapest one you can do out there (despite the regular price increase, it was only 27 000 euro a few years ago). The reason being it's your company that pays for it, not you with your privately earned, taxed, money.

Well, ultimately the governments of the eu fund it...by cadets not paying tax! And their uniforms, ids, car parking.....and there I was think subsidies to airlines was not allowed anymore...and the eu are in effect funding mol via the back door...without even realising....idiots. 2 years tax free...probably an average of 60k of expenses per cadet, and 700 being hired this year, that's 42m euros in untaxed wages across the eu...

[Weeonerotate]

I know it's not fantastic but there's no taking away from the fact that after a few years (perhaps more now with reduced hours), you will have an unfrozen licence and some good experience to enable you to go looking for better T&C's.

If you speak to anyone in pretty much any industry they all say "it's not what it used to be!", this is certainly true of the medical and teaching profession, building trade, the police, fire service etc etc. Times have changed and you can either chose to roll with it and open doors or moan and not create any opportunitys for yourself in the coming years.


By the time all you golden boys have finished your time in Ryanair there will be no other better T&C to move to, because all has to compete in the race to the bottom. The day we see Ryanair can no longer get cadets, we will se better T&C ahead. Until then, stick your head in the sand, or stand up for yourself.

And regarding other industries, what an utter bull****, tell a new graduated plumber to work for free 12 month.. He'll laugh at you rest of the day ..the reality is, he'll make more than you until you upgrade ;-)

To all of you about Ryanair is topnotch, yes, I'm sure it is not bad for captains, but where are we if we accept cadets are still treated this way, or is it a new safety regulation maybe that FOs sleep best in their cars!?

[PigeonVoyageur]

Spot on regarding the T&C in Ryanair!

Except that you're not charged 35-40% tax on your whole net pay - there are personal tax allowances that you claim and then there are tax bands with only the part of the salary above £43,000 that you pay 40% in UK. Other countries have their personal allowances and tax bands which can be different.

[Jwscud]

It is worth noting that those hourly rates are €6, 7 and 14 respectively below what was on offer 5 years ago. The cost of living hasn't exactly gone down since.

People who have been with Ryanair 20 years will be on permanent contracts from when Ryanair was a notoriously generous employer (yes, it did happen once!) but receiving barely inflation in terms of pay rises since.

[JaxofMarlow]

NP [QUOTE]You do effectively get a free type rating as you're claiming the costs back through expenses./QUOTE]

Please tell us more.

[Enzo999]

What more would you like to know?

If the type rating costs €25,000, you pay for it. Start work, claim it as an expense, you pay €25,000 less in tax. Therefore you have paid €25,000 less in tax, so as I said effectively you haven't paid anything for the type rating.

Let me know if you want to know anything more specific.

I was under the impression that TR costs are not tax deductible in the UK. Is it because you are a "business" and the TR is a "business" expense? This whole self employed thing is a can of worms, a disaster waiting to happen! And I have to say as someone paying Their fair share of tax through PAYE I hope this comes to an end soon. Why should one pilot get away with paying the square root of F all whilst I pay 40 percent?

[speed_alive_rotate]

Norwegian are offering the same sort of gig for cadets on their 737 800 , with OSM. The cost of their type rating is Approx 24,000 Euro.
I don't think they can write it off against tax, however I think they are taxed at a very low rate for the first year or so.
Second hand information from friends so am open to correction, however for a similar role (getting into the industry and 500 hours ) seems like another option.

[Mr Boombastick]

Seen as this has been resurrected I thought I'd pass on what how I've found the last few years with Ryr.

I've been lucky, based initially in a nice base in the far south of Europe and then more recently back at home in the UK.
Money has been alright, its a bit of a pain submitting expenses every month but thats just the way it is.
I dont agree with the above re the rating being for free but you do certainly get a portion of it back as its claimed back against tax in the first couple of years.

The flying is good and relatively interesting, the company seems to be changing for the better, summer leave and the roster is pretty much unbeatable.

Don't get me wrong, there are still issues and there always will be with a company this size but I generally find that if you keep your head down, fly the plane how they want, do the paperwork correctly, do a bit of study for the sim's / line checks and you will be very much left alone.

Roughly 3 years after first setting foot in a 737 flight deck Im now approaching being considered to do the command upgrade training, I have an unfrozen licence and Im also eligible to apply elsewhere in search of a better job.
For me the opportunity to have, in another 3 years time, over 5000 total time and 2000 pic on a medium sized jet is very appealing and Im almost certain I'll hang around and have a crack at the command.

In response to weeonerotate's comments;

"And regarding other industries, what an utter bull****, tell a new graduated plumber to work for free 12 month.. He'll laugh at you rest of the day ..the reality is, he'll make more than you until you upgrade ;-)"

Yes maybe the building trade is alright at the moment but when the next recession hits it won't be. Also a plumber who has done an apprenticeship has already spent the previous few years working for absolute peanuts.
How about the other industries? Medical profession, the police and fire service have all had pay freezes which with inflation are effectively pay cuts over the last few years (certainly in the UK).

Also we're not really working for free are we? After the rating and once safety pilot released we are earning and seeing some money coming back, according to my payroll report on a certain rostering site I have flown a little over 2600 h and made approaching 195,000 euro in the last 3 years. Take the rating out and some costs say 60k that is still 45,000 eu a year on average. Not the best pay around but not that bad either.

I've met quite a few lads over the last few years, lots of them have now moved on to the likes of BA, Thomson, J2, Emirates, Qatar, Etihad and corporate jobs. I've never heard anyone say they regret joining Ryr. Please don't mistake me as a brown nose, Im not but there are very few places where lads with low experience can go, fly 900 hours a year, get exposure to flying in challenging environments and ultimately get their flying career up and running.

I suspect the same argument will be doing the rounds in years to come about people accepting poorer terms than what was previously on offer. I do understand where the argument comes from however market forces drive everything and unfortunately I can't see anything changing for the better.

[thebeast]

Of course now you cannot unfreeze your license until upgrade sim. Rusty handcuffs!

[FlyingStone]

I guess nothing stops you from renting a sim with a friend and doing an ATPL skill test yourself?

[Enzo999]

I keep reading on this thread people saying things like "it's a stepping stone to something better" "it's a way to get those all important hours etc". You are missing the point, nothing better exists these days, because in order to compete with Ryan Air all the other carriers have had to drop their T and Cs to match! By accepting these S&@t deals you have ruined the whole industry. I am just about to start working for a national flag carrier and the Terms are no better than my first job 11 years ago!!!!

Anyone coming in to this industry be aware there is no pot of gold under the rainbow the Terms you agree to today will possibly be as good as your ever going to get. You have to ask yourself if that's good enough to warrant 120 grands worth of investment! I know what my answer would be.

[MaverickPrime]

Excellent words of wisdom Normal Pilot.

Countries like UAE, India, China etc are increasing their capacity to produce professional workers like Pilots, Doctors who are as well trained as their western counterparts but are willing/have to do the job for a lower rate of pay. Therefore, in the future we will have no choice but to lower our standard of living in order to compete. The west is just not growing at the rate it was 40/50 years ago to sustain our increasingly high standard of living. Thats not a reality that I want to embrace anymore than the next guy, but there is nothing that I can do other than prepare for it.

On another note, in terms of accepting decreasing T&Cs - pilots in BA accepted a decrease in T&Cs, but I haven't seen the same level of contempt (not that they deserve it) reserved for BA pilots. The BA pay scale has been stretched from 24 years out to 34 years which will see a significant reduction in career earnings, average earnings and pensions, not least, a lot of the new joiners will never see the top of the pay scale. BA is the benchmark for T&Cs, if they can reduce T&Cs there, they can do it anywhere!

The last thing I would note is; you don't start at the top of your industry/company and work your way down!

[Enzo999]

Excellent words of wisdom Normal Pilot.

Countries like UAE, India, China etc are increasing their capacity to produce professional workers like Pilots, Doctors who are as well trained as their western counterparts but are willing/have to do the job for a lower rate of pay. Therefore, in the future we will have no choice but to lower our standard of living in order to compete. The west is just not growing at the rate it was 40/50 years ago to sustain our increasingly high standard of living. Thats not a reality that I want to embrace anymore than the next guy, but there is nothing that I can do other than prepare for it.

On another note, in terms of accepting decreasing T&Cs - pilots in BA accepted a decrease in T&Cs, but I haven't seen the same level of contempt (not that they deserve it) reserved for BA pilots. The BA pay scale has been stretched from 24 years out to 34 years which will see a significant reduction in career earnings, average earnings and pensions, not least, a lot of the new joiners will never see the top of the pay scale. BA is the benchmark for T&Cs, if they can reduce T&Cs there, they can do it anywhere!

The last thing I would note is; you don't start at the top of your industry/company and work your way down!

You don't see the same level of contempt because when was the last time you heard of a BA pilot paying for his own training, or being paid by the hour or being denied basic employment rights or working for free during training or providing their own water to drink or not being allowed to join a union or being forced to moved country at the drop of a hat, shall I go on?

For what it's worth, you're both right, nothing will ever change in this industry and I imagine it will get considerable worse. Just surprised everyone is so willing to sit back and speak up in support of it's downfall.

If like it has been suggested I am just as guilty in driving down Terms and conditions by accepting my new job then I would like to apologise to the whole piloting community it was never my intention to do this and I hope you will all forgive me!

[JaxofMarlow]

Enzo999 - as you point out, not being allowed to join a union is the key issue. This is the one that has enabled RYR and NAS to rip the guts from T and Cs. How much of what has happened to airline pilots would happen to Tube or Train drivers ?

[RAT 5]

I always had the dream of being an airline pilot,

There is no such beast. The spectrum is as multi-coloured and iffy as a day old pizza special. It depends on who you work for and on what fleet. 90% of wannabes can not answer those questions when they take the expensive plunge into the unknown. I wonder how many realise that. I wonder how many realise how just how little 'piloting' is done nowadays? This idea that joining RYR as a starting point on the stairway to heaven is fraught with so much danger as to question the sanity of those who do it. Ask then at the beginning of their MPA course where they want & expect to be in 5 years time. The answers will fill astound you. Then check back in 5 years later. Madness. I know some who are still baggage handlers 5 years later; other who are busting a gut to escape the Irish lTD saga; others who are considering if they can resist the Chinese dollar offers and what it might mean. None of then thought these questions would be asked 5 years earlier. Their eyes were full of glamour.
Pilot is an over-used term in any case: see other topics on this discussion.

[UAV689]

Some of the blame also needs to be dumped squarely at the feet of the old timers with gold plated contracts. They should have refused to fly with cadets that paid for type ratings, they should have refused to fly with pay to fliers, etc etc. As they are only in the long run cutting their noses off to spite their face..

[RAT 5]

The logic of that escapes me.

[Lazydogg]

I joined 7 years ago. 12 guys on the type rating and the deal hasn't changed much since. Out of the original twelve five of us are Captains,line training Captains and one TRE all on permanent contracts UK/IRE 100k plus. Three went to Emirates two went to Thomson and two joined BA.

It wasn't the easiest to begin with but it worked out for all twelve one way or the other. There are no fixed term 6 month contracts as previously mentioned. Most of our FOs that have itchy feet at the moment are joining BA Thomson and Norwegian long haul. It is what it is and good luck to them.

[-HOOT-]

Just out of curiosity, the Ryanair 5/4 roster alternates 'earlies' and 'lates' every week, correct? When would a typical work day start and end during a set of each? I understand it may vary depending on a number of factors such as the assigned base, but its just to have a rough idea.

[-HOOT-]

Thanks for the reply, much appreciated!

That's what I thought, can't understand why they'd have you completely change your sleeping cycle every week instead of being on a fixed schedule of earlies or lates. easyJet does this too if I'm not mistaken, why do they do this, am I missing something?

[-HOOT-]

I don't understand what you are asking -HOOT- I don't think you are missing anything. The roster works.

If your switching earlies and lates it means you have to completely readjust your sleeping cycle every week, isn't it so? Hence I was wondering why they just don't have pilots do one or the other.

[Mr Boombastick]

"If your switching earlies and lates it means you have to completely readjust your sleeping cycle every week, isn't it so? Hence I was wondering why they just don't have pilots do one or the other."

Not really. You are pretty much always asleep when it matters i.e. between 0100 and 0400.
Also in some bases they only operate long flights on earlies and short flights on lates, this would mean you would be less productive for the company but most importantly earn less.

If you were flying long haul then you would experience true disruption of your flight pattern. Here you are in your own bed every night and generally well rested.

[FlyingStone]

If your switching earlies and lates it means you have to completely readjust your sleeping cycle every week, isn't it so? Hence I was wondering why they just don't have pilots do one or the other.

How would you choose who gets the permanent 4 AM alarm clock?

[Mikehotel152]

I much prefer earlies! Getting up at 4am isn't a problem and I spend the working day awake and get home for a sundowner and supper.

I absolutely loath lates. I'm up at 8am irrespective of when I went to bed, and by the time I'm inbound close to midnight my circadian rhythm is whispering 'sleep, sleep, I need sleep'.

But I wouldn't want to have an 'earlies only' roster. I like variety. Plus, a two sector day starting at 5pm leaves the majority of the 'working day' free.