Citation crash in Sao Paulo

[Condor pasa]

LiveLeak.com - Security camera recorded plane crash

Scary...

[direct ortac]

Congonhas Airport (CGH)?

[Sunamer]

It is actually amazing to see that AC didn't break apart until the very end - on the highway.

I did't expect it to be that solid considering those last 50 meters of ride . Probably this is because its size is relatively small comparing to large and mid sized jets, and probably he has enough strength to withstand such events without being subjected to high loads from the weight that airframe represents.

On the other hand speed wasn't that high to provide (V^2*mass from the energy formula) enough force to destroy the air frame and + she did end up rolling most of its path on undercarriage. :rolleyes:

hope pilots are ok. :uhoh:

[DaveReidUK]

Reportedly a CJ3.

[PENKO]

As far as my Portuguese goes I think the reporter said that the 3 occupants were taken to hospital..

[flaphandlemover]

it seems that it was the second jump.... right at the beginning you can see the plane falling off the rwy and then hitting this ramp catapulting it one more time into the sky...

amazing that there are no deaths....

[Sqwak7700]

Imagine seeing that during your morning commute. That last impact had to hurt, I'm surprised the pilots survived. I'm sure they have some serious injury, the plan comes to a complete stop pretty suddenly.

To this day I don't understand why every major airport does not have cameras to cover every angle of a runway. One aimed at each approach, and some covering each section of the runway and overrun. Seems like such a cheap option considering that most accidents happen during TO and LDG.

[dixi188]

Similar to a Citation II (G-JETB) that went off the end at Southampton about 20 years ago and ended up on the M27 motorway.

[DaveReidUK]

Selecton of photos here: FOTOS: avião de pequeno porte sofre acidente em São Paulo - fotos em São Paulo - g1 (http://g1.globo.com/sao-paulo/fotos/2012/11/fotos-aviao-de-pequeno-porte-sofre-acidente-em-sao-paulo.html#F624405)

judging from which it appears to have been landing on 35R at CGH.

[Doors to Automatic]

It must still have been going at a good speed at the end of the paved surface to achieve a leap like that!

[Sunamer]

looks like (according to photos) those folks got lucky. They crashed a bit short of that massive concrete wall. Result would be even more....complete...:sad:

[sitigeltfel]

Was this a landing, or rejected take-off accident ?

[FLR-PSA]

landed (sort of) at the airport at 17h27, coming from Florianópolis (SC).

[flydive1]

It must still have been going at a good speed at the end of the paved surface to achieve a leap like that!

Well, it looks quite a bit downhill

FOTOS: avião de pequeno porte sofre acidente em São Paulo - fotos em São Paulo - g1 (http://g1.globo.com/sao-paulo/fotos/2012/11/fotos-aviao-de-pequeno-porte-sofre-acidente-em-sao-paulo.html#F624457)

[Carbon Bootprint]

The caption in one of the photos linked to in DaveReidUK's post says "it was not raining at the moment of the accident," implying that it might have been earlier (contaminated runway?).

It may not have had anything to do with this incident, but it should be acknowledged that Congonhas is a rather cramped facility in the middle of a vast urban jungle. It seems to have had more than its share of prangs, crashes and near-misses over the past few years.

That is some spectacular footage from the CCTV. :eek:

[pattern_is_full]

Looks like it must have veered off the runway to the right, because an overrun straight ahead ends up on a big area of tarmac for ground vehicles (per the news photos and google maps). The only place where you could get that close to the Avenida dos Bandeirantes and stay mostly on grass is not on the runway heading.

A substantial tobaggon-ride downhill in either case.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Tam A320 .. some years ago avoided this small wall .. but not the buildings (TAM office BTW) across the street ..... :(

[Carbon Bootprint]

Tam A320 .. some years ago avoided this small wall .. but not the buildings (TAM office BTW) across the street ..... Yep, and not that long prior to the TAM crash happened this:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a237/broadreach/20060322_200901bra4g.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a237/broadreach/20060322bra_cgh3.jpg

One can only imagine the pucker factor in the pointy end. :sad:

[AeroBoero]

There were 3 onboard and they got injured.

The owner, age 66, was the PIC. There was also a FO, age 21. It happened during the landing.

They landed on the 35R coming from SBFL (Florianópolis).

[DaveReidUK]

Looks like it must have veered off the runway to the right

Not necessarily.

The area beyond 35R falls away to the right, so it's perfectly possible that they either landed long or simply didn't stop in time, for whatever reason, and went off the end of the runway, in which case gravity would have ensured that they then proceeded down the slope towards the highway.

The point where they ended up is approximately S 23 37 10 W 46 39 30. The billboard you can see in the foreground on the video is outside the uniform store on the corner of Bandeirantes and Ismael Gomes (you can see the CCTV camera on Google Streetview).

[Doors to Automatic]

Nothing like a short runway followed by a sheer ravine, with no RESA or arrestor bed, to sharpen the mind! :ok:

[Spunky Monkey]

After the drop off at the end of the runway, it looks like they tried to go around. Using the HMS Invincible ski jump technique. :E

Not to worry I am sure that it would polish out.

There isn't a huge amount of inertia on those CJ3s once on the ground. so even with a contaminated runway, it is hard to see how they got it so wrong.
Unless they landed long, very long...

[atakacs]

There isn't a huge amount of inertia on those CJ3s once on the ground. so even with a contaminated runway, it is hard to see how they got it so wrong.My thoughts, exactly - I really wonder how they could still have that much speed at this location. Glad everyone walked (kind of) out this one.

[Artie Fufkin]

Every landing you can walk away from...

:E

[Machinbird]

There isn't a huge amount of inertia on those CJ3s once on the ground. so even with a contaminated runway, it is hard to see how they got it so wrong.
Unless they landed long, very long... How about brake failure?:confused:

[viking767]

Wonder if the 66 year old owner and the 21 year old FO went to recurrent training on a regular basis?

[Yankee Whisky]

I have always trained, tought and flown aircraft to touch down at a precise spot, at a minimum safe speed. Seemingly this is not always adhered to by other pilots..................Air France in Toronto comes also to mind !:ugh:

[patrickal]

Wow, when did this happen? Was this Saturday afternoon? I left Sao Paulo on Saturday morning, although not from CGH. But for the entire week I drove by this point both to and from work, and every time I drove by, I was thinking of the TAM incident and thinking how there is no room mistakes here.

[Spunky Monkey]

Machinbird - you are quite right, however in a CJ there is a large red handled leaver between your thighs, pull that like a car hand break and it will give you a shed load of breaking for three pulls. (From memory).
It doesn't give you anti-skid breaks.

However, if you land at the correct speed at the correct point on even a short runway you will need power to taxi off.

Alternatively you could run it onto the grass and it would stop pretty tout-de-suite.

It looks more like they have landed long and fast. They are very lucky.

(I do standby to be corrected).

[mickjoebill]

A significant amount of energy was absorbed by the tail, which hit the top of the wall first and broke off, leaving less energy to be absorbed by the nose and wings.

Can any clues be gained about power settings by reference to the puffs of dust after the crash?

[beamender99]

BBC News - Brazilian plane skids off runway and crashes into fence (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-20320666)

A couple of extra views of the overall area.
Local report saying brakes failed.

[tommoutrie]

the high power seen in the dust after the crash doesnt really give you any indication what the thrust set by the pilots was because the throtle cables can get yanked once the structural integrity of the aircraft has gone so the engines can sometimes increase power after the crash.

CJ's are a solid little plane arent they!

[Madbob]

They were bl**dy lucky IMHO. That final bounce meant that they straddled the final wall rather than slid head-on into it. Had they done so at the speed that they were travelling the cockpit crew would have had little chance.

Even so the deceleration must have been pretty severe with quite a vertical component as well. I hope there were no serious spinal injuries to the crew and pax.

[HS125]

in a CJ there is a large red handled leaver between your thighs, pull that like a car hand break and it will give you a shed load of breaking for three pulls. (From memory).
It doesn't give you anti-skid breaks.

It's 10 pulls MAXIMUM,The number of pulls available will depend on the nitrogen available, the deflection of the emergency brake lever achieved during the preceding pulls. you're also right though as it is reduced to 5 pulls MAX if the gear emergency extension has been used as around half the capacity of the bottle is used to blow the gear into the down locks in that mode.

One should seek to bring the aircraft to a stop with one smooth pull and then not attempt to taxi, and correct there's no anti-skid hence the need for a smooth progressive application.

The other point is that pulling the handle and using the brake pedals at the same time will introduce nitrogen into the normal system probably rupturing it, and will render the emergency system ineffective - plenty of chance for a fiasco in the heat of the moment.

[broadreach]

Just an update, with info culled from Contatoradar, a Brazilian aviation site with a similar mix of posters to Pprune (you know what I mean...)

.: The 66 yr old pilot is out of danger but has cranial, thorax and spinal injuries requiring surgery. FO has a broken nose and it was the pilot’s 37 yr old wife who, uninjured, released their belts and assisted them out of the aircraft.

.: The pilot is German or of German descent, a wealthy industrialist (ceramics and upmarket resort) and a part owner of the air taxi company to whom the aircraft belongs. His initials are the aircraft’s prefix. He enjoys flying, stays current and is said to frequently fly charters anonymously, handling baggage himself for nouveau riche arrivistes who don’t say please (yes that made me laugh as well).

.: There was a slight tailwind (2-4knots IIRC), runway reported moist by tower but claimed by those who were there to be bone-dry.

.: Possibility of an attempt to go around has been poo-pooed. The official version from the air taxi company is brake failure. Aircraft came out of a ?-check on 1 November.

.: Airport fire services arrived on the scene within 2 minutes.

.: Engines remained running at more than idle (only as reported by witnesses) for around 10 minutes, rocking the loose tail section around, until a fireman entered the cockpit and switched them off.

[DownIn3Green]

That's a great, well thought out and believable contribution to this thread...Well Done.

[Booglebox]

Most CJ mishaps occur during t/o or landing, and I think more than 50% are rwy overrun. Also, this is the 2nd brake failure accident in 3 years...
CJ series are all smashing aircraft, but something is amiss here. CJ pilots I talk to say that the fault lies with owner-pilots upgrading from piston twins, and underestimating the greater inertia / higher speeds. :sad: ...discuss!

[His dudeness]

IMO there is too little info to really discuss this accident...or owner problems (do we know the aviation background of this guy?)

For those unfamiliar with the CJ: like all small Citations, it has a little electrical brake pump with a light (brake fail -> gear down and no brake pressure - pumps activated with gear down only - one of the reason why one puts down the gear handle even when blowing the gear down which would work with the handle up as well).

Thats btw the light you don´t want to do a take off abort for...

And 10 pulls is correct. However, from my CJ experience (bout 2000hrs) there are some airframes that have leaky emer brake bottles and some operators omit to have em filled up... NOT saying this is the case here.

[broadreach]

Dudeness, think the aviation background of the owner is mainly recreational. He likes to fly, enough to have invested in the air taxi company, having the accident aircraft registered with his initials and having built a resort/golf complex accessible mainly by air.

All of which, of course, says nothing about his proficiency, although Brazilian authorities did confirm his license is current. So, in that respect, he's clean. He may, of course, not have been as up to date or trained as crew on regular commercial flights into CGH are. There are no special licences required of crew flying into CGH (yet) as there are for Santos Dumont so, if you can get a slot and have the requisite aircraft licences, you're in.