Becoming an instructor... later

[poonpossum]

Just a quick question to shoot out there for you guys. I would not know where to look in the regs and have never seen anything of the sort.

Consider a hypothetical situation of a well accomplished pilot that has spent a lot of time in GA, moving up the ranks and learning all the practical decision making skills that come with commercial pressures, short or crappy strips, bad weather and whatever else. They then go on to fly turbines and then become captain of an airliner or similar, generally gaining a lot of practical knowledge from all different streams of aviation.

If they then had a change of heart and felt like they wanted to give something back to the new guys, would the best thing they could start off with be a junior grade 3 META instructor? Or is there some sort of point in the non instructing side of aviation that one can attain which would allow them to start off with a higher grade?

[scavenger]

I wish there were such a system but unless you work for a CAR 217 organisation and give all your training there, you will need to start as a grade 3. You'll need the 50 hours on an instructor course as well.

Minimum time as a grade 3 is 6 months. Minimum as a grade 2 is 1 year. CAO 40.1.7 refers.

Nothing about the grade of rating you hold determines how good your instruction is though and i would employ an otherwise experienced grade 3 before a twit, no matter what rating was in the logbook. You will find that good schools will employ you for your attitude and experience and give you whatever training or mentoring you need.

i wouldn't let you loose in the twin without having proved yourself (as an instructor) in the single first.

[Skydiveandy]

I am aware of an accomplished and retired airline pilot that was given "grandfathered" his grade 3 instructor rating.

He may have had CAR217 experience and a delegation in the past, im not sure..

And yes from that point he had to follow the same as everyone else, Grade 2, Grade 1 META etc etc..

Even though a junior grade 3 could technically hold and use a META, its highly unlikely that they would be able to utilize the privilege unless they had that experience on GA aircraft with a CAR217 organisation. I dont know of any flying school that allows their Grade 3s to train multi, remembering that legally they can.

Having said all of this, and having seen the outcome, not all Airline pilots make good instructors and visa versa. This gentlemen did need a LOT of practice to get back into the swing of GA and being in class G for a change. He eventually made a great instructor with many great stories to tell.

If its time for a change, I can highly recommend Instructing. Its enjoyable and highly rewarding "except the pay"..

Good luck..

Andy

[RENURPP]

There is a huge difference between a GA instructor teaching some one to fly from scratch and being an "airline pilot".

You are required to start from scratch and rightly so.

I have had cpnversations were i was asked by airline training captains whether they would be required to complete the whole rating. The answer is yes.

Training a ATPL pilot with some thousand hours or so how to operate to company SOPs and some aircraft system knowledge is a completely different kettle of fish to receiving a person who once saw a light aircraft from a distance and training them to be a commercial pilot.

It would be nice to have more experienced pilots chose to return or begin instructing during their lter years.

It's what I hope to return to.

[swh]

"I would not know where to look in the regs and have never seen anything of the sort."

Civil Aviation Order 40.1.7, an instructor should know the regulations. The permissible exemptions are listed in the order.

"best thing they could start off with be a junior grade 3 META instructor?"

Go to one of the larger schools that conducts MPL training. They would have a more airline like framework and would value your experience more for the LOFT and type rating side of things.

GA has changed a lot, if you really wanted to teach in GA, it would be worthwhile getting some single pilot command time again.

I think asking for an initial Grade 3 to be unrestricted is too much. GA twins catch a lot of people out every year instructing, and that is even with people with over 10,000+ hrs instructional behind them.

You would be better off getting your Grade 3 which would be restricted to single engine aircraft and non-CIR, and removing the instrument and instrument restrictions later via an additional flight test.

The different grades of instructor ratings are there as they have different privileges and limitations, an initial grade 3 needs to be directly supervised, much like a new FO would. Grade 1 requires not only time in industry, different instructional hour types, it also requires a pass in a "written" examination.

[Tee Emm]

you will need to start as a grade 3. You'll need the 50 hours on an instructor course as well.


About 15 years ago there was a grade 3 instructor at Essendon at the former (long since defunct) Wings Flying School. His previous qualifications included being a former RAAF Sabre and Meteor fighter pilot as well as being a graduate of the RAF Empire Test Pilots Course in UK, where he flew English Electric Lightnings, Hunters, Viscount and numerous other types. One of his projects as a test pilot in UK was climbing vertically in the Lightning at 60,000 ft while test firing missiles in vertical flight. Back in Australia he did some serious test flying on the Macchi jet trainer including inverted spin recoveries after two Macchis had crashed after failure to recover from inadvertant inverted spins and the pilots ejected. He came very close to ejecting while conducting inverted spin entries and recoveries and should have been awarded the Air Force Cross for his work on the Macchi problem. Many other RAAF pilots have been awarded the AFC for doing a lot less. I forgot to add this grade 3 instructor was former Wing Commander Max Loves. Max is still around and about 75 now.

Despite all this experience, he too did his 50 hour civilian instructor course and got his grade 3 at the end of it.

[By George]

I have just renewed a Grade 3 after a 35 year Airline career. Any Airline experience is ignored and not counted in any form. Nobody wants to know and nobody cares. To be honest I found it quite hard work, especially getting use to an aircraft that felt like flying a brown paper bag. I found navigation oddly difficult too, it takes all day to go a hundred yards and it requires a little adjustment to the brains speedo.

Before you all hide under the bed, I've just picked up a jet job again, so it's safe to come out.
The so called 'Airline Cadet' schools are not interested in you either, they prefer promoting their own students as Instructors. It was not a waste of money though, I actually learnt a few things and had a ball.

[Clearedtoreenter]

By George

I wouldn't agree with that. In the school I work in, that experience would be highly valued and in such areas as the dreaded TEM, your experience in meaningful decision making would bring a breath of fresh air that might even make sense of it. There is nothing students like more than listening to 'war stories' and the day to day dilemmas you have faced and how you dealt with them. There will be folk out there who actually want to grow up just like you! Yes, you might have to be a G3 on paper for a bit, but you'd soon progress from there. As for the 50 hour course, you might actually enjoy that too and bring some new challenges and different ways of looking at things to the Grade 1's and CFi facilitating your course.

it is hard work and long hours though. Its not really the sort of thing you can do as or when you feel like it. Sometimes you might wonder if you are giving a lot more than you're getting out of it and of course there is an element in the industry who will be happy to take everything out of you and give very little in return... but there's no greater pleasure than motivated students hanging on to your every word, sooo willing to learn and growing in knowledge and skill as you watch them. You will get a few who aren't like that too. Dont even think of making any kind f a living out of it.:)

[seneca208]

My MECIR instructor was a relatively new Grade 3, very experienced GA pilot. Was definitely some of the best instruction I've ever received, and as stated above, it's always cool hearing some real stories from all thats happened over the years. He showed me some very cool things and had some great tips that I doubt many fresh META instructors would have under their belt.

[poteroo]

I can understand where poonpossumis coming from - it seems a waste of experience to have to start from the 'bottom' again. Been there and done that - I had 5k hours of PNG and bush flying up when I finally decided to complete my instructor rating some 25 years ago. But, it does have advantages if you already fly well from either seat, and know procedures well - because you can then focus on the teaching and learning aspects. That's the important bit for an instructor.

It's also a steep learning curve for you, as you must learn how and when to explain flying to a student when the flying is second nature to you.

I think it gives some weight to the UK approach of requiring 500 hrs PIC before commercial level instructing. The more skill you have - the more likely it is that your demonstrations, and explanations, are effective.

There probably should be some way that CASA can 'credit' past CP, C & T pilot, or endorsing pilot experience, but can't suggest how immediately.

happy days,