British Airways Future Pilot Programme (FPP)

[Politely_amused]

Evening all

Just received an email - you may be interested to know that the BA FPP run through CAE Oxford Aviation Academy (http://www.oaa.com/pages/schemes/british_airways#FPP_with_OAA) is opening on 19 Nov 2012.

The main link is - BA FPP (http://www.oaa.com/pages/schemes/british_airways#how_to_apply)

Of note:

we would be delighted to accept applications from current or former UK Service Pilots so long as applicants from this stream have not yet commenced flying training at an Operational Conversion Unit (OCU).

So that's me out then! Applications are running from 19 Nov to 13 Dec 2012.

Not so sure about the £84,000 FPP Training Bond (http://www.bafuturepilot.com/faqs/#fin_1). Of note:

1. What funds do I need to have available to join the Future Pilot Programme?
APL will pay for the cost of your training, regardless of which FTO you choose. However, due to the significant training investment made by APL in sponsoring a cadet pilot, a cash security bond of £84,000 will be required to be deposited with them in a series of instalments over the period of flight training.

In addition, your chosen FTO will require an additional fee payable directly to them for certain items not covered by the APL sponsorship agreement. Please see each FTO’s website for further information on the amount of this additional fee.

2. What happens to my security bond once I complete my flight training?
Upon employment with British Airways your security bond will be transferred from APL to the airline and you will, so long as you maintain your employment commitments, benefit from a contracted commitment from the company to repay the security bond to you over 84 monthly instalments.


Surely, if you have to pay it back as a loan anyway - why not just pay for your own training and hours? Surely you could get to an fATPL for less than £84,000? Maybe I'm just cynical...

Anyway, good luck...!

[Flap33]

In 1995 I paid £35000 up front for an ab-initio course. It took 3 years to find a job with a turbo-prop operator earning £16k (and that was one of the better ones).

Fast forward to 2012 and the course probably is £75-85k, but BA will guarantee the loan and offer you a job on completion - and you think that's a bad deal.

Wake up matey, there are hundreds of graduates from the likes of Oxford, Jerez who are currently loaded in debt up to their eyeballs and have no work.

If you think it's a poor deal being offered by BA then don't apply, let someone else have their chance. If you do apply, with an attitude like yours, BA will find you out.

Enough said...
Current BA pilot (and yes, I'd have given my right arm for this deal in 1995)

[Politely_amused]

with an attitude like yours, BA will find you out.

Fella, crikey. Might I suggest you read a post before you question someone's attitude in such a derogatory fashion.

Firstly (if you had read my post), having completed a military OCU and served as a frontline military pilot I am ineligible to apply.

Secondly, as someone looking to move into a second career it was (as you will note) a genuine question about the way these bonds work - hence rhetorically asking if I am being rather cynical in picking out the clauses. BA is at pains to explain there is no guarantee of employment at the end of the package and it is your £84,000 outlay.

You're saying this is a good deal that additionally offers a strong possibility of employment for new pilots. Fine, I am of course very interested in your point of view, particularly as it sounds like you 'made it' the hard way.

I am less clear on the need to be so derisory when actually I was hoping to make others who may be eligible aware of what sounds a very interesting and well constructed opportunity.

[Flap33]

I have the utmost respect for those who have served in the forces, BA has a lot of ex-service flight crew and I fly with them regularly. I guess BA have their reasons for this exclusion - I have no idea why as I am a regular line pilot with no connection to recruitment of any kind.

This programme is the closest you can currently get to an airline sponsorship in the UK. I honestly think that the recruiters will be looking for candidates who live, eat, drink the passion required to apply themselves through this very hard course and with a good chance of employment at a leading airline.

I did not intend to be derogatory, I am a little frustrated that this programme is seen in a bad way. It goes without saying that some of the Ts&Cs may not be to everyones' liking but that is a personal decision to make.

In my opinion, and trying not to be biased, it's a good programme and a way to allow those applicants who can't fund the courses from conventional sources to have a crack at getting into this amazing industry.

[Politely_amused]

Flap, I think its good to hear you standing up for this program - as you say it's probably as close to sponsorship as you'll get. Particularly given the slating the Cathay Second Officer program has had! To the uninitiated (i.e. - me) the Bond clauses just seem a little daunting, but as you say they certainly lay them out clearly and guys are going into it knowing how it works.

I agree, the 'trained military pilot exclusion' is slightly odd as I (and a few others I can think of) would have seriously looked at applying. Having said that I wonder if it possibly would not have made financial sense to commit to a sizeable bond for those with a level of flying experience.

However, my issue personally will be a lack of F/W time. I have 1,900 hours helis with a lot of varied operational and environmental experience. Despite this, if I go for the F/W route clearly I will need to do my exams, hours build and gain my CPL and ME IR. Certainly achievable - although it would be much easier (and cheaper) staying on helis!

Anyway, may I ask though, my assumption is it will then by key to build my experience and time with a smaller airline for 2-3 years - if I am lucky enough to be hired in a tough market of course. This would then (I hope!) put me in a position to apply to the larger airlines and long haul which is certainly where I would aspire to.

Whilst this sounds a fairly well-trodden path, is the perception within the industry that this is still the way to go? I assume the larger more revered long-haul airlines such as BA simply wouldn't even look at you until you have 1,500 hours plus of jet time regardless of any other experience?

All guidance gratefully received...

[Flap33]

PA, your career path assumption is pretty accurate. The only major factor that's different from when I was a low-hour, newly qualified fATPL holder is the willingness of mainly low-cost airlines to offer "Pay to Fly" packages. I deplore these, they are taking huge advantage of guys/girls who just want to fly. That said, if you are desperate to get your 500 hours in an Airbus or similar then I guess its a means to an end.

To put things in context, when I qualified in 1996 British Midland used to see 737 type ratings for £9k. If you completed the rating BM would give you an interview.....It didn't mean they had any vacancies, they just gave you an interview.

BA is a good company, they treat us fairly well and is certainly considered a career airline. Like all things in life, compromises may have to be made in order achieve your ambition.

[Wirbelsturm]

Politely Amused,

I believe that the exclusion for those completing OCU, thus Wings, is to avoid conflict between what used to be known as the 'Managed Path' and the FPP.

Applicants for FPP are chosen to be of a similar ability at the start of the procedure and therefore, to the company, are a known commodity.

Managed path and qualified Service Pilots are streamed toward the DEP profile therefore avoiding the 'bond' but you do need to have your fATPL prior to commencing the Simulator assessment.

If/when the DEP window opens, as a QSP, you should have access to a seperate login which will enable you to apply for interview, upto 2 years prior to release I think, without needing a licence number for the website.

QSP DEP is a little more fluid, as explained before, with respect to when it opens and for how long as the 'tap' can be quickly opened and closed unlike the lead-in to FPP.

However, from the QSP perspective, the DEP entry is far better.

(PA, My background was 4500 hrs Helis, ATPL(H) to ATPL(A) then DEP into BA way back on the RAFCARS scheme. It is possible and the recruitment team do not want to alienate QSP's into the future as they have always provided a superb, qualified, experience stream into the company from a source that is rapidly diminishing.)

[FANS]

FPP is in the region of £22k to £84k, a ratio of just 0.26. I will stand corrected on earnings figure, but I remember seeing an advert about 5 years ago for bus drivers in Oxford where they were paying £19.5k per year, so it is not brilliant, is it ?

On top of the base salary, BA repay your loan repayments without tax deductions. There is also sector pay etc. and therefore adjusted for tax you're probably looking at a package worth £40k - i.e. nearly 0.5 of your little ratio check.

If FPP is looking for 72 pilots per year, I make that just over £6 million per annum it would cost BA if they decided to do things the old-fashioned way and fund the people they want themselves. Not exactly a huge sum of money to spend for something you really cannot manage without (pilots to fly the aircraft). ???

BA are working in a global market with competitors like RYR, EZY etc - all of whom are offering abysmal T&Cs. BA could have offered a similar scheme in theory and still had more applicants than seats.

The small print does not guarantee a job at the end of

Nothing is guaranteed in this sector. BA's previous cadets did a stint as cabin crew during prior recessions.

What does puzzle me is why the many hundred (thousands ?) of fATPLs out there who are already looking for a job are not looked at first

These would be the same people that charged ahead and were lucky/daft enough to have access to the necessary funding to go for an untagged (integrated) scheme in the worst recession for 80 years.

BA is specifically selecting its cadets from a pool that can be choosen based on ability rather than access to funds. From this pool, there will be sufficient numbers and therefore there is no point further widening this pool to include every fatpl out there just to create a bigger nightmare for the recruitment team.

[funkydreadlocks]

Not fATPL, but working towards it via modular (still a long way to go though!)

I have to say that I agree with G-RICH, don't condemn people just for having access to money. I think what is meant by "why don't they look at fATPLs" is, why don't they try to select the capable/deserving ones from that bunch?

It's not because you have money that you're incapable of being a good pilot. The selection process to get the job itself should be seen as something completely different as to what training you can afford. My concern with the BA FFP is that they don't guarantee a job for those who start the program. Why not select people they definitely want before the training? It might cut places by half but at least those in the program wouldn't risk financial ruin.

The point I'm making, rich or not, fATPL or not, they should look at aptitude if they're willing to train up people to become pilots, like they used to do before.

That being said, I think the BA FFP is as close as we'll get to sponsored training and find it a great idea, although I do wish airlines would revert back to the old ways, despite it being more costly.

[FANS]

You are very damning of those who have had the initiative to go and get qualified.

I've got no issue with those that go out and get the blue book. I do have a big issue with those on untagged schemes that are surprised not to find an airline job at the end of it.

I think in the wider economy this risk-taking is called "entrepreneurship".

Disagree. Entrepreneurs talk calculated risks and understand risk & reward.

Many seem to go for this expensive option because "they have heard that this is what BA likes

If someone's going down the integrated route on the sole basis that BA might want a SSP at the end of it, more foul them.

The point I'm making, rich or not, fATPL or not, they should look at aptitude if they're willing to train up people to become pilots, like they used to do before

They are exactly looking for that aptitude - rich or not - with the BA scheme. This is in stark contrast to EZY MPL, flybe etc etc.

GRICH - If you know of a better scheme right now, please let everyone know, as this is as good as it gets by a country mile.

[mad_jock]

Its all wheeling and dealing and the old boys network.

Unfortunately the person that thought the tagged cadet schemes up failed to see that they were actually completely screwing the market up for the self finiance group.

Basically there is no way you can fast track to a jet now unless your on a tagged scheme. In fact a large % of the tagged jobs are now onto TP's. And the sales reps are sniffing any possibilty of placing students on a tagged schemes just to get the numbers through. It doesn't matter if its one job or 20.

I completely agree its about as good as you get for the student just now and expect it to get worse.

Whats going to happen to the training market will be interesting to see as the tagged schemes don't have enough going through to support the current training capacity.

Even if you banned modular from airline jobs there still isn't likely to be enough demand for quite some time if ever to even remotely fill the big three schools.

[Happy Wanderer]

Hmmm, certainly not good news for the Flight Instructors amongst us either :ugh:

[mad_jock]

Not really the new EASA rules about instrument instructing etc will eventually screw them as well.

Its virtually impossible/ impossibly expensive for a PPL FI to make it up through the ranks these days.

There has been short term lobbying done for target groups in the training industry. The way it has worked out nobody will be able to replace the current higher level instructors. It could be that they wanted to channel everyone through MPL style training using SFI's.

[Tay Cough]

After all, they spent £172 million buying BMI. This seems a very large sum to pay for a company loosing up to £150 million per year...

This seems a very reasonable sum to pay for a significant number of slots at a slot constrained airport. :rolleyes:


My concern with the BA FFP is that they don't guarantee a job for those who start the program.

They never guaranteed a job for those on the old Cadet Scheme either and there was always the threat of having to pay the course costs back if you were chopped.

[Libertine Winno]

@ mad jock

Haven't CTC just started a sponsored FI course? Maybe they have seen what's coming out in the world of instructing...?!

[mad_jock]

Yep they have but the requirements for it are plain stupid even worse than the flexiscrew FO's get. Its the IFR hours that will kill and also the 30 hours MEP and 10 PIC in the last year. Which most won't have if they did there IR using a FNPT II.

Most of us that they would want, our MEP went to the wind years ago. And now with EASA we would have to do the MEP course again and then build 10 hours PIC time and have our FI valid which for most will have fallen off after 3 years before we can even look at being a multi instructor. The IRI is another ballache.

I would be looking at the best part of 15k to get to the level that they are looking for and it would take 2-3 months unpayed. And to be honest I am lucky because I still have a valid FI. All that to go and work at under half the salary that I am currently on.

[flying free.LEVC]

I am considering sending my application too. I am a ppl doing the theory of the ATPL with Oxford, but I haven´t sit to any exams yet so I think i would be eligible, is that correct?

As far as I understood, the bank can give you up to 100.000 pounds secured by British Airways, which will be taken from the salary the next years, true? With that money you can pay the course and the accomodation, living expenses...

Considering my situation, having a permanent job with the NHS, private pilot and studying the theory of the atpl, would you advise me to apply?

Best regards

[flying free.LEVC]

Good afternoon,

I´ve been living in the UK for more than 1 year because I got a permanent contract with the NHS thanks to my degree in Nursing.

I am Spanish so our grades look slightly different on the paper, should I get an Statement of Comparability of my universitary degree or simply my high school grades?

My average score at university was 7/10, which i think is like C, however i got much better marks my two last years before university, 8.2 /10.

Life at university is too good...:}

Any help will be valued.

[mad_jock]

Perhaps it would be better if the whole CPL/IR thing went extinct and people spent £8k on getting a PPL with some satisfaction at achieving something, rather than pi**ing away ten times that sum on something which usually does not lead to a job.

Thats what some would want but they haven't realised that if it was such the case the higher end training industry would be a fraction of what it is today. It would have very little ability to react to increases in demand. But it would quite rapidly shed capacity in down times. They want to get rid of all the modular and just hope they are the ones that survive. But most of it will be short term goals by accountants. The fact they will have shafted themselves in 5-10 years time doesn't matter to them.

They need the self finance students to keep things going in the down times even if they have very little chance of a job. If they wern't about it would end up costing the airlines more because they would have to subsidise in lean times just to keep the training line open.