Rumour? Plane impounded in France

[EGNHMuppet]

What could the consequences be if an owner has a plane impounded in France due to a possible drug trafficking offence? Just asking as there's a rumour going around - not sure if it's true yet.

[JUST-local]

The last case I heard about in the UK.
The aircraft was still locked away with its registration taped over two years later!

[172driver]

I sometimes fly to an airfield in southern Spain where there's a small collection of a/c rotting away for that very reason - been there for years.

:(

[S-Works]

there are half a dozen like that at our place in Le Juliana in Spain. Very sad to see.

[peterh337]

I sometimes fly to an airfield in southern Spain where there's a small collection of a/c rotting away for that very reason - been there for years.

Barcelona?

http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/barcelona/lell-wrecks.jpg

[dublinpilot]

Why so many in Spain? It's proximity to Africa?

It would make renting your aircraft to strangers a very dangerous business!

[Sir Niall Dementia]

On the lunchtime news today. Plane impounded and British Pilot arrested.

Silly boy:=

[peterh337]

Why so many in Spain? It's proximity to Africa?I think it's because historically (not so today) parking in Spain was extremely cheap, say a tenner a week or less, and if you, shall we say, "knew" the right people it would be even cheaper ;)

So if you had a plane which you couldn't afford to fly anymore, you just left it there...

Most of southern Europe is like that, with cars too... and houses.

On the lunchtime news today. Plane impounded and British Pilot arrested.

For what?

[172driver]

Why so many in Spain? It's proximity to Africa?

Correct. These days they (smugglers) use mainly flexwing or motorized parachutes - harder to detect and land anywhere.

[MrAverage]

Any idea which aircraft? Couldn't find news item......

[tonyhalsall]

Smugglers mainly use flex wings do they? YOu got any validation for that claim? Any sources?

Thanks

[172driver]

Spanish Guardia Civil.

[S-Works]

Smugglers mainly use flex wings do they? YOu got any validation for that claim? Any sources?

Northampton Crown Court - Microlight smugglers nicked at the end of may garden last year.

As 172driver states, the Spanish police are all over it, they visit us at work in Spain often to ask about microlight and paramotor movements as we are so close to the coast. Apparently they are the new preferred method of muling as they are small, easy to hide and can be bought very cheaply.

[Dg800]

What could the consequences be if an owner has a plane impounded in France due to a possible drug trafficking offence?

They might eventually be found guilty and convicted and have to go to jail for a while? Just a wild guess. :E

[patowalker]

Quote:
Smugglers mainly use flex wings do they? YOu got any validation for that claim? Any sources?
Northampton Crown Court - Microlight smugglers nicked at the end of may garden last year.

Not a flexwing, and they didn't "hide" the stuff in the wings either. They simply placed it in the wing lockers designed to carry luggage.

Drugs gang that smuggled cocaine worth £1.7m on the wings of a plane jailed for 38 years (http://swns.com/news/drugs-gang-smuggled-cocaine-worth-1-7m-wings-plane-jailed-38-years-27059/)

[ifonly]

My French isn't that good but this may be what the OP was referring to-
Belle prise de drogues à Abbeville dans la Somme - France 3 Régions - France 3 (http://picardie.france3.fr/info/belle-prise-de-drogues-a-abbeville-dans-la-somme-77227758.html)

[peterh337]

I did consider standing up on a table at some bar in Amsterdam and offering a confidential / discrete cargo shipping service across the water, at 150kt.

On further reflection it didn't seem a good idea because people other than the intended customers would prob99 hear about it.

No wonder these people get caught. If you are going to ship this stuff, you buy (or steal) a boat, enough fuel to cross the water, and you do it during a nice calm night. And you leave the boat on the beach, or make a hole in the bottom...

[what next]

No wonder these people get caught. If you are going to ship this stuff, you buy (or steal) a boat, enough fuel to cross the water, and you do it during a nice calm night....

Still too risky. What you need to do is to fly the guy who collects the money and kick him out of your plane somewhere over the sea. But don't forget to declare the money to customs upon landing if the sum exceeds 10.000 Euros ;)

But joking aside: I know quite a few people who "lost" children to drugs. Normally, I'm not in favor of capital punishment, but drugs ruin so many good lifes (I still get tears in my eyes when I hear Amy Winehouse sing, what a stupid waste of talent) that I would make an exception in this case.

[172driver]

The one who's really holding the can here is whoever rented the a/c to this guy. According to the French article, he had rented it a couple of days earlier out of London (no more specific).

[peterh337]

That flying is now so expensive that pilots have to resort to drug smuggling is rather worrying.

No; it's just pure greed. I have never worked in this line ;) but obviously if you get away with it for a decent bit of time you can make tens or even hundreds of thousands, which most normal people will never make in their lifetime.

A relative of mine has lost most of her savings to a ponzi scammer (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financial-crime/9130175/Mastermind-behind-Britains-biggest-ever-Ponzi-scheme-Kautilya-Pruthi-faces-14-years-in-jail.html) who was paying 8% per month. Obviously 8%/m has to be a scam but, as Gordon Gekko said, greed always works :)

[patowalker]

They are even using model aircraft to get drugs across the Strait of Gibraltar.

La Guardia Civil investiga el transporte de droga en aviones de aeromodelismo | Intereconomía | 641376 (http://www.intereconomia.com/noticias-gaceta/sociedad/guardia-civil-investiga-transporte-droga-aviones-aeromoelismo-20111111)

[Barcli]

Customs seized 12 kilos of cocaine and 1.1 kilograms of heroin on the tarmac of the airport of Abbeville.
Coordinated action by French and British Customs has a seizure in a passenger plane bound for England and the arrest of the driver. The individual from Great Britain had a few days earlier, leased the plane to London and had traveled from Britain to land in Abbeville

[abgd]

So if the police find drugs in a Hertz hire car, they impound the car?

[piperboy84]

People don't appear to realise that airfields, while notionally uncontrolled are actually subject to quite a lot of surveillance

You have no idea how much !! Last month I got a visit at my ****ty little grass strip by the "ports police" who are regular police officers seconded to do port protection. they said they were looking for folks involved in terrorism, drug and people smuggling, and have a program running called Operation Pegasus (If I rememberer correctly) which is aimed at making the GA community aware of what types of suspicious activity look like and how to report it. I could tell from talking to them they take their job and the subject very seriously and it was not some kind of make-work project to avoid real work.

[piperboy84]

Just found the link

Tayside Police - Project Pegasus (http://www.tayside.police.uk/About-Us/Specialist-Units/Special-Branch/Project-Pegasus.htm)

[Dg800]

So if the police find drugs in a Hertz hire car, they impound the car?

Of course they do. Hertz can cry their eyes out but the authorities won't give a damn about it. It's one of the hazards of making the renting out of vehicles your main line of business.

[what next]

Hertz can cry their eyes out...

They certainly won't cry their eyes out, but will invoice you the renting rate for all the days the car is impounded.

[flyems]

Do the authorities impound the aircraft owned by an airline if someone is found carrying illegal items onboard?

If the owner was aware of the illegal activities, no contest, but if the rental was in good faith that aircraft should be back with the owner in good time?

[mad_jock]

Do the authorities impound the aircraft owned by an airline if someone is found carrying illegal items onboard?

Yes and they also impound boats and lorrys as well.

And it can take months to get them back, if you get them back at all. Depends if they can link it to the owner or if its the operator thats been naughty. Even if its not the owner its a huge legal fight to get it back.

I wouldn't have thought its to bad in the EU but outside its a bit wildwest. The amount of hulks sitting at airports around the world rotting away is quite staggering.

Mind you the same happens in the EU as well. The Metro sitting in IOM after the cork crash being an example.

[what next]

Do the authorities impound the aircraft owned by an airline if someone is found carrying illegal items onboard?Not long ago (two weeks?) a Syrian airliner was impounded in Turkey for several days because of a suspected cargo of arms.
Last year, a Thai Boeing 737 was impounded in Munich for several weeks because Thailand hadn't paid some bills of a German construction company for a motorway they built there.

So yes, airlines can cave their aircraft impounded too, if a court decides so!

[EDMJ]

Last year, a Thai Boeing 737 was impounded in Munich for several weeks because Thailand hadn't paid some bills of a German construction company for a motorway they built there.

That was a Thai government aircraft, not the property of a Thai airline.

[Contact Approach]

Ask this guy: George Jung | The biography of Boston George (http://georgejung.org)

[mad_jock]

It really doesn't matter who the owner is or for that matter who the operator is if either of them owe cash to someone the airframe can get impounded by the courts.

If the AAIB want to pull the CVR or FDR again impounded.

Criminal activity is the easy one because the plane becomes evidence.

The fun one is when the reg of the aircraft has money owing from a previous operator or owner because the debt stays with the airframe. Saw one of those once. A nice biz jet pulled onto stand and as quick as you like it had snow ploughs parked either end and a notice slapped on its door. The current owner or pax not amused as the crew were removing there personal items.

Quiet alot of aircraft that were owned by bust airlines get flown to a safe airport stuck in the hanger and re reg'd quite quickly if they have huge debts on them. I have flown one aircraft which has got quarter of a million on it in one country, which is more than it is worth minus engines and nothing to do with the current owner. But we were told it would get rather interesting if we had to divert into that country for any reason.

You also have to watch when you sign fuel receipts on account because there is usually a clause in it that the person signing for the fuel is personally responsable if the account isn't payed. Which is why a few old a devious pilots have a different signature for refuelers which you wouldn't have a clue who it was. And one I met has spent the last 15 years signing M.Mouse round most of europe.

[cockney steve]

In the not-too-distant past, when well-heeled individuals, opportunist "entrepreneurs" and Asian corner-shop keepers made regular "booze-cruises" , overly zealous Customs officials made arbitrary decisions as to wether a "cargo" was for personal consumption ,or not.

They would sieze the vehicle and turf -out the returnee, sometimes without cash or mobile-phone, onto the road outside the port.

Tales in the motor Trade were legendary, as to the bargains that could be had at the local "Block" (Auction) which was suddenly flooded with a huge selection of vehicles which had been siezed.........

Someone finally snapped, took HM C&E to Court (think it was a Co. that had hired-out a Transit) AND WON....Rather like the handgun debacle, the compensation and restitution for their bungling remains well-hidden.

They can't nick something that belongs to an innocent third-party. they cant jiggle the owner on a chain indefinitely, either.

(NOT saying the tossers won't try throwing their authoritative weight around, but.....)

[mad_jock]

The aircraft reg thing is pretty hard, if a reg owes eurocontrol it will get seized next time it lands inside eurocontrol land at a controlled airport.

It doesn't really matter who the owner is or who the operator is that incured the debt. The debt stays with the aircraft. And until someone pays it you don't get it back.

Once your outside europe it gets even more complicated.

[bluecode]

Some years ago there was a light twin which landed at Staverton bringing people in for the Cheltenham races. When the pilot got back to it some time later. He found it was minus an engine. Turned out that the maintenance organistion on the field had done work on it at one stage and had never been paid. So they took their engine back!

I had a worrying moment once in Liverpool. Flew over from Dublin for our club's 'cross channel' check. Sitting in the terminal enjoying a cup of tea after surviving our epic journey across the Irish sea. Four Customs officers appeared and asked who was the pilot in command of that 172? Everyone pointed at me, the traitors. As I glumly accompanied the officers over the aircraft imagining my erstwhile companions making good their escape. I wondered what was going on. To my dismay they started going over it in detail.

Eventually with relief, I realised it was nothing more than a bit of training for some of the Customs officers. I then entered into the spirit of it showing them where and how you could hide things. Showing how inspection panels were easily removed etc. Thinking about it if you weren't too greedy there are plenty of places in a C172 to hide contraband.

But don't go to Liverpool, they're well trained now!

[Dg800]

That was a Thai government aircraft, not the property of a Thai airline. That was disputed at the time and it was the reason why it was stuck there for several weeks, until the Thai Government managed to convince the German court that it was indeed state-operated (and hence had diplomatic status), and not privately owned by the SOB prince who has a habit of not paying his debts on time.
Another instance of an aircraft landing and not departing again on time is the unfortunate circumstance when someone shuffles loose of his mortal coil while on board. Somewhat rare, but it has happened a few times and the plane always got impounded upon landing, no matter how many people it was supposed to leave again with shortly afterwards. It's even worse if the body does not belong to a manifested passenger but is instead found in the hold or some other cavity.

[flyems]

Not long ago (two weeks?) a Syrian airliner was impounded in Turkey for several days because of a suspected cargo of arms.

Even that aircraft was on its way a couple of hours later once relieved of the offending kit...



I suspect naughty owners will forfeit their toys once the authorities are able to demonstrate a link between the operation of transporting illegal items and the ownership of the vessel/vehicle/aircraft.

Where the pilot of a rented aircraft becomes involved in illegal activities without the knowledge or suspicion of the owner, the aircraft could at worst be impounded as part of the evidence chain.

Unless the authorities can overcome the presumption of innocence on behalf of the owner, the aircraft will eventually be released from the evidence chain to the rightful owner.

[mad_jock]

Your all thinking UK laws.


Rest of europe as Berger say you will be lucky to see it again and if you do it may not be all in one bit because they will have taken it to pieces and it won't be a licensed engineer thats done it.

[piperboy84]

A story about using GA aircraft for drug smuggling and the results from yesteryear, many moons ago after I finished training for my PPL in LA and trying to hour build there were a few CFI guys who hung around the airport bar who ran small charter operations, they both offered me right seat time in twins which was really tempting, one of them ran an operation called “The Mile High Club” which as you can probably guess involved taking a beat-up old Twin Commander up to 5200 feet, sliding a small curtain between upfront and the passengers, turning on a red light (ironic huh) in the rear, circling while they bonked then landing and giving them a bottle of shampers and a certificate acknowledging the couples status as freshly minted members of the mile high club. That was a lot of fun with many memorable moments.

Another operator told me how he flew his 310 down to Mexico a few times a week in the middle of the night to pick up a load of shrimp for an LA based Mexican guy who distributed seafood at the markets downtown. I was asked if I wanted to do some flights with him as I guess it was boring doing it on his own, as tempted as I was getting to log some twin time I declined as arriving back in LA at 5am with no sleep I would have been knackered for work. Fast forward several years and after landing in the US upon completion of a shrimp run the plane gets surrounded by the full works, DEA, Local cops with guns at the ready and dressed like storm troopers etc. Turns out the “shrimp” was sniff and/or smokable. Bottom line, the last he seen of his beautiful 310 as he was being driven off the airport cuffed-up in the back seat were the feds posing in front of the Cessna taking trophy pictures of their latest confiscation/asset seizure, he went off to do a decade of Federal time, plea bargained down from a potential life sentence.

The moral of the story, It’s a mugs game.

Oh I forgot to say how they knew, I guess a DEA agent always suspected what he was up too but could never prove it or catch him, the agent moved to a totally different division of the government for a while then decided he wanted to go back to the DEA, his first week back on the job he remembered about the “one that got away” and decided to take a second look, he pulled up any flight plans that the pilot had filed or was flying and waited for the right moment. Then it was curtains (and hard time) for the pilot !, I see on Facebook he was recently released with his kids all grown up and wife remarried.

[F4TCT]

When I was working away in Almeria port on board a large pipelay vessel, there was a coaster type cargo boat moored up over the other side of the dock. I enquired about it as it looked a bit rough round the edges and neglected. I was told by the guys in the port that it had been impounded as due to a drugs search some 5/6 years earlier, all the crew in jail.

Another time we were slap bang in the middle of the med, shortly before my accident, laying the deepwater line between almeria and beni saf, a reasonably sized dinghy approached our massive vessel (saipem 7000), with around 9 POB and the floor lined with small fuel tanks, all linked to a little 15hp or so motor. They asked us 'which way to spain', we shouted down 'that way' and pointed roughly - not that we had any visual contact with the land and the stern of the vessel couldnt be taken into account as the pipeline was far from straight.

Needless to say it had come from algeria, probably with drugs. What came of them i dont know. Pretty sure i have picture somewhere

Strangely enough we somehow managed to lay the pipe on top of a detached helicopter door, which was submerged below the sand and the first time it was picked up was when the ROV blew the sand off the door when it was doing survey work on the pipe. The chopper had crashed many many years ago apparently. They knew about that and planned the pipeline round it, shame they didnt see the door. Medgaz's problem now :ok:

[abgd]

Given that it's relatively straightforward to tell where aircraft have come from, and the relatively lax security on many strips, the thought occurs that the 'safest' way to smuggle drugs would be to hide them on somebody else's aircraft when it was abroad, then retreive them at the other end. Particularly if it's a hire-aircraft. Not a pleasant thought.

[peterh337]

My feeling would be that the risk of losing the cargo (discovery, or the plane moving on elsewhere) would be too big a risk. The stuff is probably not that cheap to start with - in Europe.

It would for sure be discovered at the Annual, where the structure is inspected - unless the Annual is a total sham.

[werewolf]

What the French law says : Trafic - Mildt - Mission interministérielle de lutte contre la drogue et la toxicomanie (http://www.drogues.gouv.fr/ce-que-dit-la-loi/ce-que-dit-la-loi-en-matiere-de-drogues/trafic/)
Trafic de stupéfiants
stupéfiants = drugs, narcotics (from stupefying drugs)
In French : brigade des stups = narcotics bureau
Two codes :
1. Code pénal
2. Code des douanes (more strict than the former)
From the code des douanes :
la détention sans justificatif de stupéfiants est passible d’une peine d’emprisonnement maximum de 10 ans, de la confiscation de l’objet de fraude, des moyens de transport, des objets ayant servi à masquer la fraude, et d’une amende douanière pouvant aller jusqu’à 5 fois la valeur des marchandises de fraude
Confiscation des moyens de transports : it means : motorcycle, car, lorry, boat, aircraft ... possibly impounded.
Who decides ? a judge in a court (public trial) ...
More :
le détenteur des marchandises est réputé responsable de la fraude. Cette responsabilité étant encourue par le seul fait de la découverte des marchandises de fraude, c’est au prévenu d’apporter la preuve de sa bonne foi. : the individual is presumed to be guilty, he has to prove his good faith...

Blanchissement = money laundering (from blanchir = to white wash)
Confiscation of everything : vehicles, houses, flats, estate property, bank accounts ....etc
What happens to confiscated items (decided in Justice) : rapidly sold in public auction.
Auction sales by the Douanes : Site internet de la Douane : Avis de vente en douane (http://www.douane.gouv.fr/page.asp?id=433)
Nearest sales: at Marseille 28th Nov 2012 at 9:30 local time.
Please click on "le catalogue de la vente"
Some good bargains ... for little money
At the bottom of the list: 2 cars, impounded... but worn-out with a lot of mileage ! The "trafiquants" are clever blokes : they used cars with little value !
Please note that impounded counterfeit things are not sold, but destroyed.
Hope that helps.

[Maoraigh1]

It would for sure be discovered at the Annual, where the structure is inspected - unless the Annual is a total sham.
Look up GINFO to check annual isn't imminant. Put in stuff. Hope guy doesn't crash. Pick up the stuff within a month. It's been done with tourists cars - Mexico - to US.

[what next]

I work 48 hours a week in a very ordinary job. ...

Yes, but you could work much less than that and own a much bigger aeroplane by doing one single trip! Only one - and never have to work again, unless you wished so. That must be quite a temptation for some people.

But from my experience, you have to have a lot of criminal energy of your own in order to get this kind of special income. I habe been in business aviation for over twenty years, run my own business for ten, co-owned aircraft for many years, but have never been approached with a request to smuggle anything.