Congratulations AsA - a modern IT wonder.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Congratulations to AirServices Australia on the roll-out of the new briefing system this week. Slower, more complex, fails to interface with standard industry tools and makes everyones life harder.

I am sure some of the worst squarks will be ironed out over the next couple of years, and we will learn to work-around the rest.

I have heard of a practice where major software and hardware changes are rolled out in parallel with the old system for a period of trial before switching the old system off.

This practice is normal for high-risk environments. I guess they decided not to do it this time because Aviation is low-risk... and we all know how safe it is, don't we?

YES I had plenty of time to think abou this, I spent 22 minutes on hold yesterday trying to lodge a flight plan, forced to listen to ASA dribble on about how they are world leaders in this and that and the other.

ON A SERIOUS NOTE than you and well done to all the BN and ML Center controllers, who kept an even tone and bent over backwards this week to help all the flights with lost, deleted, unlodged or seriously delayed flight plans.

Cheers

[Capn Bloggs]

Rubbish. :)
The website is a *huge* improvement over what you have now and I doubt you will miss NAIPS for windows for even a second.
So there. :cool:

Even if the server thingees are sped up (NIS works great at 2300 at night) the whole thing is going backwards. Still, at least it's free...

[Shagpile]

I tried 10 times on their website yesterday and gave up. Ended up submitting with tower on taxi. Held sar with a friend.

Got a call from CENSAR that afternoon saying my plan did go through and I didn't cancel SAR. Sigh.

[Slugfest]

Shag, Bloggs and Blowy,

Have you tried the system since 1620K BNE yesterday?

Techs reckon they made changes at that time and from what I have been seeing since and so far today is that NIS responding quite well.

[kingRB]

Aside from the utter disaster of the change implementation, why choose to do it on one of the busiest days in the week? :ugh:

As previously stated, much respect to BN briefing who handled all the calls while maintaining professionalism and patience.

[Capn Bloggs]

Aside from the utter disaster of the change implementation, why choose to do it on one of the busiest days in the week?
In AsA's defence, the planned intro was last Sunday. It's just that it failed then and somebody decided to do the second intro in the middle of the week.

Have you tried the system since 1620K BNE yesterday?
I have, as stated above, and it's currently working well. The Test site also worked well. It seems to me (apart from the clunky, harder website design itself) that the problem is the site performance under load. Peak hour on Monday morning will be the real test of "the changes".

[Slugfest]

Ok. Ta.

The thing that is missing here is that with the ICAO Flight Plan changes, all the systems have to be changed to cater for the new requirements in a specific order and short time frame.

Given that making >1 significant change (and this includes data set changes as well) at a time is a considerable risk (read up about the skyguide disaster) then there are very limited opportunities to reschedule a change.

For example, there is a significant change to the AFTN switch going on tonight and nothing else. The longer NIS took to get out there, the less time the Flight Plan 2012 changes will be on the external test bed and that in turn has its impacts.

There is lots of pieces to the puzzle that are waaaaay beyond the view of external users.

[Capn Bloggs]

There is lots of pieces to the puzzle that are waaaaay beyond the view of external users.
Understand. But the external users are usually the ones who end up in the dock (ala Norfolk) when things go pear-shaped (through no fault of their own); Flt Notification stuffups, lack of briefing material...

If things have been rushed, then they haven't been planned properly. If things fail on implementation, they haven't been tested properly.

[Creampuff]

Good afternoon, this is your Captain speaking. Welcome aboard.

We incorporated a modification to the aircraft pressurization system that had limited testing due to a lack of test beds and very limited opportunities to get the work done. There are lots of pieces to the puzzle that are waaaaay beyond the view of passengers.

So that’s why it’s OK if you encounter some discomfort and loss of consciousness.

Slug: explanation does not equal justification. :=

[Capt Claret]

The Ops Support man told me that the test NIS site was to have been available in July but was only available in late Oct! :sad: gives no one time to get ready, work out issues and plan ahead. I suspect this is part of the reason it's been overloaded. Many, many folk trying to come to terms with it, transfer SPFIB & Flight Files, etc. :eek:

[Slugfest]

Puff,

I'm not justifyin anytin simply saying how things are. Take it how you like it as I really don't care. I'm here to pass on info as I find it.

My comment about pieces of the puzzle refers to the necessary timing and very small windows of opportunity to deploy an and almost unprecedented series of changes on a world wide basis and not the context you have applied.

Claret,

Nope, it was not the amount of server traffic I am told.
Yes, there was to be a NIS test site but that got overtaken by other events as can happen.


Bottom line with the changeover was that something went wrong that was not seen in the test bed - both internally and externally - and has now been corrected and with the change on 10 Nov, will improve again.

If you all really are so put out by this weeks events, sit down, write a letter/email to the airservices CEO and ATC general manager and put forward your thoughts rather than setting them down here and winding each other up.

[baswell]

Bloggsie, it was me who said that and I stand by it. From a user interface perspective, in my opinion, NfW was a steaming pile of poo.

If I am going to be sitting at a computer to file a plan, I would much rather do it with the new website.

Unless there is a specific thing you used in NfW that I didn't and so don't miss, I am going to say NIS ****s all over NfW.

In corporate IT, failed initial deployments are the norm, and Airservices did a clean roll back. Kudos for that.

And the slowness was solved in 48 hours? Well done.

The reality is that this stuff happens in companies with as many employees as there are pilots in Oz all the time, except we don't hear about it, it is all internal.

Overall, I am still very critical about the late access we as 3rd party developers got and the lack of response to our issues. Not to mention trivial firewall changes taking many days in test and many hours after go live.

But, as these things go, it wasn't too bad at all.

I hope next time they take us developers more seriously... On day one, over sixteen thousand requests to NAIPS went through our servers, I reckon pilots love their iPhones...

[SmoothCriminal]

Darwin departures were a mess over the last two days., hardly anyone had a plan come through whilst ready to taxi., I gave up and departed VFR, had to pull out the good ole' VTC and rattle up the brain on how to do it ! ;)
Thanks a lot to the Darwin ATC guys n gals, great accommodating and controlling given the scenario :D

Smoothie.....:ok:

[baswell]

But were any Qantas flights delayed? If not, it's a 100% success! :ok:

[Aussie Bob]

Nothing like Aussies ... Can't stand change, expect everything for nothing and bitch about anyone who tries to improve something.

Poor diddums, if you all had your way we would still be using MS DOS

[Creampuff]

Slug: If you are merely a messenger rather than an apologist for this debacle, my apologies. :ok:

I naturally assume that, ultimately, no one's responsible. :ugh:

[OpsNormal]

Aussie Bob, fair dinkum that comment is about the intelligence level of a goose mate. I had a 4 leg plan lodged the evening before we were to be airborne (RPT turboprop) at 0600 local out of a military AD tracking to and within 20 minutes flight time of SY on Friday morning. The same 4 leg plan and call signs that have been lodged literally hundreds (if not thousands) of times previously with ATC in our operation.

After going to bed at a reasonable time for the 0400 wake-up I was contacted by BN ATC at 2300, 0010 and again at 0113 LMT to query info, WPTs and departure times that had been submitted the evening before (not normal procedure but done as our company had been having lost and inactive plan issues the day previous, so one of our senior people popped a few plans in the system at a quiet moment). The issues that were arising were WPTs that wouldn't gel with routes and departure times that would dissappear as they were lodged...

I feel for the poor bloke who rang me each time (as they were trying their best to get it all sorted), however that first three hours sleep I got was the only sleep I ened-up with that night - which makes it difficult to call our OPS and tell them I don't feel rested due to being constantly interrupted.... Certainly wasn't the most alert I've ever been at work.

Let me guess, the Air Services boss and associated managers responsible were all safely tucked-up in bed asleep while the coalface staff were left to make sense of the s#!tfight their masters left them?

Change is good mate, especially when it is thoroughly designed and tested for function and fit first. The bunfight that Slugfest has mentioned is as good a reason as any for Air Services to tell ICAO "Nope sorry, not happening - need more time."

This is a "Safety First" industry, not the "Chuck it in there and then work it out as we go" fun we've just had over the last few days. Maybe this is one of the reasons GR did a runner a few months ago?

[kalavo]

In corporate IT, failed initial deployments are the norm, and Airservices did a clean roll back. Kudos for that.

And the slowness was solved in 48 hours? Well done.

No it's not. In small organisations who don't plan properly it is. Larger organisations, faults affecting 0.1% of the customer base are considered a MAJOR issue. Most of the IT companies I've worked for have considered 99.999% uptime the minimum standard, and generally did better than that.

[baswell]

Wait, what, used anyone's online banking lately? Or trying to buy insurance? How often do those systems slow down and go down? "5 nines" my ass! And that isn't even talking about their internal use systems.

Besides, I don't think AsA sees us GA pilots as "customers". They have one or two customers, the rest of us they are just doing a favor...

And you haven't experience ANSP IT failure until you've been stuck in Dusseldorf for 2 days before taking a train back to London because the bloody POHMS cocked up an upgrade that grounded the entire UK. :ok:

So, in the grand scheme of things...

[Harro]

I've been in IT for many years and have been involved at the project management end of some largish rollouts.

I agree Baswell that issues routinely occur with these types of rollouts but I believe they could have done more to ensure a smoother cutover.

You always need to conduct load testing prior to cutover, how did they go about accomplishing this ? Clearly what they did was not sufficient.

The test site should have been up for much longer at least 1 -2 months. Cutover date should have been delayed to allow for this.

My approach would have been to have a parallel implementation of both systems with a cut off date for NFW.

This would have meant a gradual transition, realistic load testing rather than simulated and instant rollback in case of serious issue.

No doubt tricky to achieve but worth the effort IMO.

On positive note I do think they have made the right choice going web based as its going to allow for rapid and simple deployment of additional functionality. (should benefit all of us hopefully)
Lets face it updating a Windows app on large scale is a pain in the neck. No doubt why NFW hasn't changed in a long time.

[Capn Bloggs]

Lets face it updating a Windows app on large scale is a pain in the neck. No doubt why NFW hasn't changed in a long time.
NFW could have been improved a bit but for a piece of software written years ago and still quicker to use than NIS, it is pretty damn good. Goes to show what can happen if it's done right.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Can't stand change, expect everything for nothing and bitch about anyone who tries to improve something.

We would love change, tossbag, but we expect:
1/. that is is handled competently and
2/. The change brings about an improvement.

Yet to see evidence of either in this case.

[Slugfest]

From: NAIPS Feedback
Sent: Friday, 2 November 2012 7:36 PM
Cc: NAIPS Feedback
Subject: RE: NAIPS Internet Service Update

Dear NAIPS User,

The work that our engineers have conducted over the last 2 days seems to have been successful. We have managed to greatly improve the system response times. Most users are now reporting that the system is performing acceptably. We will be monitoring the system over the weekend to ensure the performance problems are now resolved.

The new NAIPS system requires 7 character passwords. New default passwords have been created for users to ensure login is still possible. The detail of these amended passwords is described in AIC H32-12. (Link Below) http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/sup/a12-h32.pdf


Please be aware that if you use the systems that are provided by 3rd parties such as Champagne, Avsoft, Avware, OzRunways, Command etc, these systems may have pre-saved password credentials. If you are experiencing difficulties with these systems it is possible that the pre-saved password requires amendment.

Users who have forgotten their NAIPS passwords can reset these via email.

As always, queries should be directed to the NAIPS Feedback mail box ([email protected]). In addition the Briefing Office is contactable on the following numbers: 1800 805150 (PhoneAway card required) or 07 3866 3517.

Please accept my apologies for the inconvenience caused during the commissioning of the new NAIPS system. I hope the improvements we have made help your flying operations in the long term.

Regards,
Justin Parker
Project Manager
Airservices Australia

[Slippery_Pete]

Slugfest,

My airline management try to blow us off with the "there are more issues that you can't possibly understand" BS too.
This is corporate speak for "we don't give a s***". I, and other Ppruners, don't doubt there are other issues at play in the background. But that is no excuse for the absolute shambles which occurred during the rollout.
Claiming there are other factors as play is just a cop out. It allows managers to acknowledge end-user errors, yet avoid blame or responsibility. Corporate hand washing at its finest.

The only factor at play here seems to be ICAO timeframes. Please tell us all about all the other hidden considerations, because we are dying to know.
If ICAO timeframe was the real agenda, why didn't ASA have the balls to tell ICAO the deadline could not be reached without a safety compromise and to stick it up their jumper?

Have ASA not learned the lessons of Norfolk? There is no better example than this of the degradation to safety where pilots are unable to obtain a preflight briefing. The recently released report should have been a big red flashing warning light to Australian Aviation that holes in the ability to obtain information both preflight and in flight can have dire consequences. I can guarantee the pressure felt by the Norfolk pilot at the preflight stage was felt by hundreds of pilots around the nation on the day you roles out a white whale. What will it take for the lessons of the past to be learnt?

The system problems and lack of awevice during the rollout might have been acceptable to you, or ASA management, but that doesn't mean it is acceptable to everyone. Would you hav dealt with the time pressure of operating a service on time for your paying passengers? Had you been a passenger, would you have accepted missing an international connecting flight due to domestic delays? Will ASA reimburse my company the tens of thousands of dollars in STD calls to operations trying to get weather read out to them over the phone?

What might be acceptable to ASA was most definitely NOT acceptable to the majority of pilots who were affected.

And lastly, this site is called PPrune. If you don't want to listen to pilots having a whinge about ASAs mess, then perhaps you need to rethink visiting a "pilot rumour network". And just because we have a cry on here, don't assume we haven't taken formal steps either. My FOM, CP, ASA and the ATSB have already heard from me.

End rant.

[GOONSAK]

Have you guys actually tried it since the thing has been repaired.

It is not too bad, better then Naips 4 Windows version.

It seems to be pretty good to me.

[Slugfest]

SP,

I have never said anything about acceptable or otherwise, merely passed on information I have received.

I'm not going to justify or apologise to you or anyone else for that matter in reference to the events of last week. There will be investigation and post implementation reviews conducted and that is the proper course of events.

Fact is there was a problem in the rollout and that was subsequently corrected and a large group of people on both sides of the mike worked together during the problem as they do when any contingency situation arises.

[T28D]

In any normal implementation all the stakeholders are pre notified of changes that will affect them !!!!!!

Please be aware that if you use the systems that are provided by 3rd parties such as Champagne, Avsoft, Avware, OzRunways, Command etc, these systems may have pre-saved password credentials. If you are experiencing difficulties with these systems it is possible that the pre-saved password requires amendment.

This is high handed arrogant nonsense from the ASA project manager.

Where was the pre notification ???

[Aussie Bob]

We would love change, tossbag, but we expect:
1/. that is is handled competently and
2/. The change brings about an improvement.

Yet to see evidence of either in this case.

Mr. Leafblower,

Are you always so endearing to differing opinions?

IMHO this is being handled competently, IT always seems hit and miss, even the banks stuff up, gremlins are comonplace in all web sites and ****e happens. Despite what you (and others) may think, I was also inconvenienced by these changes. Not as badly as Ops Normals experience perhaps, but I like most found a work around.

I also happen to think that the new interface shows some improvement, the instruction book is excellent and in a month everyone will be settled in, the system will be working as good as IT gets and your thread will be forgotton.

Regards AB

[Creampuff]

I have been using Internet banking for a loooong time. I cannot recall being unable to conduct the transactions I have wanted to conduct. Ever.

[baswell]

But do you use internet banking 10 times a day every day like people use NAIPS?

Just because you don't notice it doesn't mean it's not happening. NAB has had an extraordinarily bad run this year, but my other banks have had outages too.

Very few affected me because I use them once or twice a week...

I am not defending Airservices, but to pretend they are worse than everyone else is nonsense. I'm just a stickler for accuracy in reporting.

Ah well, maybe I am not as disappointed as some because I expected mediocrity and got exactly that...

[The Butcher's Dog]

The implementation, speed and accessibility of the new NAIPS was (is)..........amazingly BAD!
The confusion created by incorrect data sequencing after submitting flight plans electronically and the ensuing call for taxiing met with advice there was either no plan or a plan submitted at the wrong time or date - contrary to the data you have in front of you.
Third party program incompatibility gave further evidence of just how poorly this all unfolded.
Along with various re-routing along the east coast due to "Radar" outage makes you wonder at the health of "Airservices".
Mediocrity beyond which there has been no previous scale! When the dust settles you would hope there is some serious soul searching to be done.
To those in Airservices whose patience and professional conducted greatly assisted.....thank you.

[porch monkey]

On the subject of upgrades, I can't seem to find the spfib page in the ipad naips app. Any ideas? I can get everything else, password ok and all that, but don't seem to be able to find the spfib page anymore.... Any ideas Bas?

[Capt Claret]

On the subject of upgrades, I can't seem to find the spfib page in the ipad naips app. Any ideas? I can get everything else, password ok and all that, but don't seem to be able to find the spfib page anymore.... Any ideas Bas?

Same, same. I also note that the iPhone and iPad App interfaces are different. The iPhone still having the "... More" option to customise the App, which is missing on the iPad App.

[Aussie Bob]

I am still argung that the roll out was OK.

Bas, was the the first edition of Oz perfect? The second perhaps? Third even ... My subs to you folk are current despite the odd bug.

In my world the internet banking is OK but not perfect and my EFTPOS machine is chronically slow but CBA don't really want to know. How many credit cards got crunched when the banking hole in the wall first appeared? How quick we forget. The (new) NAIPS was implemented and was then almost perfect within 48 hours.

Mediocre? Bit harsh I reckon. I would be more generous and say "within spec". I could even be more generous and say "as anticipated".

Anyone still having problems? For me it has been faultless from day 2.

[ChrisW67]

Faultless since day 2... Nope. Workable certainly.

It helps to know that a flight plan with a lat/lon sig point, e.g. 2120S15245E, will be really awkward to cancel or amend because some genius decided that the NIS user interface should put spaces in to the lat lon, e.g. "21 20S 152 45E" every time it is re-presented to the user. Try a 30-point Customs run in lat/lons and you will soon lose your sense of humour about it.

Submit the same plan via the 3rd party interface using the decimal lat/lon variant for specifying the point and the notification will be flatly refused with a message that does not gel with the request you sent. Workaround required: use the encoded text as a name like the good old days.

Retrieve a route directory for BN to PH and marvel at the truncated result.

Periodic "Error processing xxx request - Host failure" type messages.

These are the sort of teething problems I expected, not the wholesale smoldering servers result we got.

[baswell]

Ah yes, you noticed that too. After looking at the spec and thinking "this is how it needs to be done now", spent a couple of hours implementing and testing parsers for lat/lon and waypoint-bearing-distance - only to have both not working, but just putting "BAK270090" as waypoint name still works. Sigh.

Reported, but of course no response whatsoever on the issue.

I fully expect at some random point, they will fix it without telling us and they won't accept lat/lon as waypoint name and will need to use the "proper" methods.

[baswell]

SPFIB is still being worked on. Couple of weeks hopefully.

NAIPS is really Shagpile's baby, even though it is sold under the OzRunways banner now, so he'll be the one to ask about the future of the interface! :)

[porch monkey]

Thanks for that Bas. Pity, as I found it a useful tool for briefing on the way to work and such........ and you always had the spfib available to you on the ipad. Anyone know if it is possible on the new interface to save the briefing as a file for later use, ie, on the ipad? I must be missing something. I don't want/can't print it.

[baswell]

When the briefing is displayed, there is a "save" button on the top right. That puts it into the "Saved" tab. Is that what you mean?

[airdualbleedfault]

Air-lack of-Services make the HKCAD look competent and that is no easy task.
As far as the service being " free ", I think most operators of A/C would beg to differ.
AsA, third world services at first world prices, just another bunch of public service :mad:s

[Bevan666]

AsA switch internally to the new flight plan format on 10 November, a functioning test environment for us to test on was provided yesterday (7th November) at 3pm.

Yes, that works. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

AvPlan now has an update in the queue with Mapple - begged them again to review in time, but who knows? :confused:

[Capn Bloggs]

Now my phone is unable to access it because it can't login.
Make sure you have Capslock on. While a Windows browser makes the NIS site display/use automatic capslock (even if not selected on keyboard), on my Android phone, the NIS username box doesn't do that. I have to set caps lock first, then put in my username. http://www.smilies.our-local.co.uk/index_files/scratchhd.gif

[Mail-man]

Anyone else got the ****s with the little calendar?

[Capt Claret]

on my Android phone, the NIS username box doesn't do that. I have to set caps lock first, then put in my username.

No such problem Bloggs on a naturally intuitive iPhone or iPad! :p

[Capn Bloggs]

naturally intuitive iPhone
How is your new overpriced, extended matchbox going Claret? Mr Cook started issuing magnifying glasses so you can see the screen yet? :}

[Bell_Flyer]

You know what else they need to put in?

A translator to everyday English for weather information and NOTAMs.