R-22 Rescues Model P-51 from Trees

[Bumps]

This video made my day:

ffEYqGGYXRk

[HeliKiwi500]

What's his name? Timmy something?

[Ewan Whosearmy]

ffEYqGGYXRk#

Any AFIs/CFIs want to comment on whether they think this was just a bit of harmless fun, or should the instructor really have known better?

I am pretty sure that my CFI (ex Royal Navy) would *never* have done this, and that none of my AFIs would have thought it that cool, either.

I did have one AFI who smoked during my lessons, and the rumour was that he'd attached rockets (or the fireworks variety) to the skids of an R-22 on one occasion. But this? Hovering over trees. Sitting in the avoid curve? Too much for my delicate constitution.

[misterbonkers]

Heaven forbid! People ACTUALLY enjoying themselves in a helicopter?

Avoid curve is there to be avoided but it doesn't mean you can't go in it! Guys at my work spend 6hrs a day (or more!) in it.

Low level over trees is easier with the doors off as you can see around better.

Let's introduce MORE paperwork to stop it happening...

[Rotorhead412]

100% Agree with Mister bonkers! People are not allowed to enjoy themselves in helicopters, so we should try our damnedest to put an end to this ludicrous malarkey! Our students must never laugh or smile during training... :hmm:

Great vid though, fair play to the guy i say.

[albatross]

Never become a Canadian Bush Pilot.
You'll spend a lot of time in the avoid curve.

[nigelh]

Cant wait to see what TC thinks:ok:
I would have said it was a very interesting exercise for a student . As for smoking ...at least 3 of my instructors smoked during lessons but i guess fewer do now . Great video ....he certainly seems to be enjoying himself ...so it just HAS to be illegal / immoral doesnt it ??

[spencer17]

Spent have of my flying career in the avoid curve, and that's quite a lot.:E
As a slinging guy you get dizzy above a certain hight.

And for the vid: Well done boys, you made someone happy and you had some fun.
Remembers me of a job where we had to pick fir- and pine cones from trees in a Hughes 500. Very interesting job.;)

[S76Heavy]

The smoking would bother me.
The rest is indeed a very good excercise for the student. I love the way the FI talks through every part of it explaining, telling the student to clear the tail rotor, etc.

The most scary thing to me would be the people on the ground walking towards the machine as you never know how they will behave and there are rotating parts.

They used an opportunity to use the helicopter as the utility machine it is, showing flexibility and thinking out of the box while maintaining good SA. That student will never forget the lessons of that trip.

[500 Fan]

And I thought it was just us Irish that swore all the time!

It looks like the IP assessed the risks and carried out the "rescue" in as safe a manner as was possible. He was mindful of his tail rotor so it was a good lesson for the student. Granted, it shouldn't be something the new PPL should try for a long, long time, but at least he had an off-airport landing and departure demonstrated to him.

500 Fan.

[Hilico]

I know nothing, but that's what technology is for.

[Tailboom]

Absolutely fantastic !! What a laid back guy

[topendtorque]

Dead mans curve or avoid curve, yeah I've heard of that too. I'm with Spencer, nose bleeds and all that.
tet

[BlenderPilot]

Excelente!!!

[JTobias]

Hmmmm

I'm making no comment about the aviating, but do people really speak like that? Especially once they are no longer teenagers ?

Joel :ugh:

[ShyTorque]

I thought "Top Gun" actors flew F-14s...?

[misterbonkers]

Joel - have you never seen Team America? :)

[Anthony Supplebottom]

but do people really speak like that? Especially once they are no longer teenagers ?

Very much so - especially in the US.

[JTobias]

Is it an affliction ?
Can you get treatment for it ?
Should you be able to pass your medical and fly a helicopter ?
In fact, how do you get an R/T license ?

Joel :p

[toptobottom]

I think this is a disgrace. Totally irresponsible behaviour, setting a poor example to a naive and impressionable stude who will be psychologically scarred for eternity. AWESOME!!! :E

JT - how did YOU get your R/T ticket?! Nobody can understand what your saying south of Watford ;)

(or north of Watford for that matter!)

[Doodlebug]

Try this in Europe and... oh never mind, too depressing. Thank God for Americans! :ok:

[JTobias]

TTB,

R/T Ticket? I need a license ?
Next you'll be telling me I need a license to fly a helicopter !
And then you'll be telling me I have to re-validate it every year.
Well I'm not that fick !

Joel :ok:

[Background Noise]

Care to comment? :eek:

ffEYqGGYXRk

[paddy.pilot]

This guy must have never heard of the avoid curve.
Would have been much safer if he had the student reach for the plane as he does a flyby at 60 kts. :E

Brilliant video.
Would have been a great advertisement for his school if he stuck his name and contact details on it. Almost 1.5 million views on youtube. :ok:

God Bless America :ok::ok:

[krypton_john]

I'd be worried about getting a skid snagged in a branch.

[Ag-Rotor]

All good...this guy knows what he's doing....notice he was talking through every thing as he was doing it...making sure his tail rotor was clear and was handling the R22 very well.

[Ag-Rotor]

This is a very disturbing statement made by paddy.pilot. Mate if you've got no idea.....please refrain from making comment.:yuk:
"""This guy must have never heard of the avoid curve.
Would have been much safer if he had the student reach for the plane as he does a flyby at 60 kts. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif"""

[misterbonkers]

I think it's tongue in geek relating to another topic in this forum...

[[email protected]]

So it's just me that thinks the guy is a complete moron - no consideration for risk vs reward - but it doesn't matter because it looks cool!!!

The accident investigation would have made a good read had he managed to catch the main or tail rotor or had the engine stop!

It is one thing carrying out valuable training ie operating in and out of confined areas but putting the aircraft (and a fee-paying student) into a highly risky situation just to rescue a fricking model aircraft:ugh:

And if the way he did it is considered professional then you need to take a long hard look at how you conduct yourself in a helicopter.

Some people have to spend their working lives in the avoid curve - this moron didn't.

[Ag-Rotor]

For those of us who live in the curve this is a piece of piss..

[John R81]

Not sure I follow your logic. I may have mis-read you but I am hearing "stay out of the avoid curve unless the risk / reward balance makes it worth putting your life on the line."

So if he did a 20/20 over trees and a verticle landing at a confined site to go for lunch that would have been OK? Why, because "dinner" is more important than helping someone else? Or are you saying never take a single into a vertical arrival / departure unless lives are at stake?

Anyone in a single spends a proportion of their time in the avoid curve, or only flys from sites large enough to take a STOL fix-wing (which is far cheaper). I recently came in over a similar sized tree line to verticle into a lawn at a hotel just to attend a wedding - 3-up in an EC120. I should not have used my helicopter for that flight?

If it is OK to be in the avoid curve for other than life-saving reasons then surely we ought to be considering that given what he intended to do, did he minimise risks so far as possible?

Would I have done that - no. I am not confident enough in my skills.
Do I think he did it in a way that minimised the risks - yes.

[Aucky]

I'm not surprised by the mixed reaction. It perhaps would have been a good idea to do some form of recce of the site, even just an orbit, talked through with mention of wind direction, hazards, best approach direction etc if he wanted the student to take away any benefit from it, it would have taken all of 2 minutes, but been a MUCH more useful lesson. I think the lack of the above gives the idea to the student that you can just bomb in there without having taken any precaution. He surely did evaluate these things, but didn't make it clear to the student that he had made any airmanship decisions prior to approaching sending in my opinion the entirely wrong message to the student. It's quite funny though to watch :}

[paddy.pilot]

Correct misterbonkers, completely tongue in cheek, ref: UK CAA Prosecutions thread.

I'm slightly worried though that someone thought that what I was saying was a possible suggestion...:eek:

[[email protected]]

John R81 - No, I am saying that making an approach to land is one thing - there is always an element of risk involved but the techniques taught (even HOGE and vertical descent) try to minimise that risk by reducing exposure time.

Hovering in a position where pretty much any failure is going to end up hurting you (nose in to trees and not above a clear area) just to recover a model is just crass.

As Aucky rightly said, there is no briefing or acknowledgement of the risks involved (probably because he wouldn't have been able to justify his actions if he had actually thought about it) he just booms on in there in an effort to impress his student and curry favour with the owner of the model.

Let's not even think about what would have happened if the model had flicked up into the disc as the downwash caught it, or who cleared any of the model flyers into or out of the disc on the ground - the whole thing was amateurish and he can count himself very lucky that he didn't f**k it up ( luck not skill involved there).

If that is what you want to do with a helicopter then fine, crack on, but don't expect any sympathy when you are the subject of a fatal accident enquiry - just consider what would have been said on this forum if it had gone wrong, I don't think it would have been 'Oh he died having fun in his helicopter' or 'what a skilful pilot, he was so unlucky'.

[Agaricus bisporus]

I wonder (not very much, actually) how different the tone of this thread would be if any one of a number of events had occurred during that extraordinary display of cowboy showing off.

Demonstrating to a stude that extemporising a completely unbriefed and un-assessed procedure on the spur of the moment is anything other than foolish - life and limb excluded, and a toy aeroplane, even if it is a P51(Wow!) is not that.

Didn't hear a syllable of a brief, mention of wind, obstructions, power margin - I could go on. Just, "You grab the wing" as we go into a free air hover in a treetop, take our straps off and lean out the door

Sticking the skids right into a tree? Catch a branch and try a dynamic rollover at 80ft? 2 dead for a toy. Foolhardy in the extreme.

No mention of the effect of downdraft on the model. What if it got picked up - it is an aerodynamic thing - and went through the rotor? A totally unpredictable scenario - that alone should have been enough to put them off.

Ditto on the ground though consequences less serious.

Allowing strangers to wander uncontrolled under the disk, and apparently unconcerned about it.

"Do we have permission to land?" Of course! Not.

"Those guys are f*****g trippin". Who exactly was tripping I wonder? One huge foolish, ill thought out ego trip imho. How many counts of reckless endangerment there I wonder? Several.

What was the instructor's name? Mitty, W?

Instructor? Doing that on a lesson? Sheet! There may well be cultural differences in the way helos are operated from one place to another but I watched that vid in total disbelief. In the UK I think he'd be savagely prosecuted on several counts for that, and rightly so imho.

[Vertical Freedom]

That's about the most greatest Robo rescue (on a lucky day) 👎⚡👎
Don't go back, we'll be right away, for the next report on the Robo as she throws a delaminated blade landing to an inferno that engulfs the.......:{:mad::yuk:
Good flying but hmmmm airmanship :ugh: well it was a fvrescue & the job got done no probs :yuk: Hmmmm & then doing this for a toy ??? :mad::yuk: "stupid is what stupid does" imagine the ole Student wanting a refund on that deviation of his lesson plan for what......what You ask .........RISK Vs REWARD "stupid is what stupid dies"

Happy Landings Always

VF

[Ag-Rotor]

Why would the student be looking for a refund ?? some of the learning he got here allbeit unconventional would have been invaluble. The instructor pilot was involving him in the task asking him to look out the back making sure the tail rotor was clear, instructions and decission making process during this manover were clear and precise. If the rescue was of a person stranded in a tree in a flooded river you would be applauding his skill and effort.
How does a helicopter pilot develope his or her skills if every thing is by the book, no flying insde the envelope unless approach and departure, allways worried the engine might stop at an inconvenient moment. If that is the mind set no one should fly a helicopter. I fly helicopters because I can hover and I can do all the things an Aeroplane can't

[Peter3127]

I wondered where the dude on the left who approached the aircraft went to. Popped around the back for a photo opportunity? :eek:

[Vertical Freedom]

Yaw man they were all trippin' :zzz::ugh:

[[email protected]]

Ag-rotor - the point here is that the guy had no plan B - he had not even considered how he might have achieved the aim with less exposure.

You can learn the same skills using a 10' high bush planted on a flat area - the difference is that if the engine quits you will probably walk away from the ensuing arrival at the ground.

The student could have learned how to check the tail clearance in a 5' hover in a confined area.

You seem to want danger rather than learn skill - the skill in being a helicopter pilot comes from minimising that danger, not going out looking for it.

[C.King]

I tend not to post, and even more rare is me agreeing with crab....however, I have to agree with him 100%.

Any number of events, most of them completely outside the control of the pilot, could have turned this 'exercise' into a fatal accident.

I can immediately think of a similar situation where an instructor, trying to impress a student with how 'skilled' he was, and how much 'fun' can be had in helicopters managed to kill them both.

The first priority of any instructor is to impart, above all, a sense of self-discipline and a mature approach to flying. Without these any new pilot is an accident waiting to happen.

Totally unprofessional imho

[Widewoodenwingswork]

This entire thread illustrates the differences between attitudes to aviation in Europe and America and quite eloquently sums up why aviation is dying in the UK.

[Nigd3]

Two resulting scenarios for me:

1 - What actually happened, all went well,toy airplane recovered, no one hurt and nothing damaged.
- Opinion is split as to whether he made good use of his (or someone elses)machine and showed initiative, whilst teaching his student a tangible use of a helicopter, or;
- Complete reckless fool who put lives and his machine in unecessary danger for a toy.

2 - He clips a tree or has an engine/mechanical failure resulting in 2 dead/badly injured and the R22 written off.
- Opinion is overwhemingly one sided - Complete reckless fool who put lives and his machine in unecessary danger for a toy.

He got away with it this time.

[Plain Torque]

Nothing would have happened to this guy anyway he is God: "he sees everything"!:}

He is obviously someone who is trying to enjoy every minute of his life. Sounds like a real character and probably fun to be around on the ground, not sure I would get in a helicopter for a lesson with him though!

You can clearly see the MAP gauge and it is sitting around 23" when he is trying to pick the plane out of the tree. Considering the weight of the pilots, the temperature (doors off) and the lack of wind there isn't much power to get out of any snagging or re-circulation caused by the trees. Then he pegs it on 25" (which I'm sure is more than the max for the day) just to sneak over the top of the trees... phew! And then giving it back on the ground with all those people walking under the disc!!!

You wouldn't see me trying this or recommending anyone else do it but hey he did it and got away with it and everyone was happy this time. One thing for sure it is certainly an interesting video and a great tool for learning through debate.

PT

[The Night Owl]

Curiosity got the better of me so I had a hover over some similar styled conifers, there was almost a hint of ground effect up there and even if there has been an engine failure (when was the last time anyone had one of those?) the trees would have cushioned the fall

I did have a 10kt headwind that might have helped a little, but I don't think there was anything more than a little fun to this and certainly no need to get all wound up about it!

Well done Tommy, having some fun and making good use of your heli - that's what they're for after all!

[FH1100 Pilot]

Okay look, the "problem" is not what the CFI did. Retrieving an RC plane stuck up in a tree? ZZZzzzzz. Big deal. The problem is how he went about it.

It was obviously an instructional flight, and the guy in the right seat is obviously a non-rated student. When the CFI notices the RC plane go into the trees, he grabs the controls and without even clearing his turn he begins to circle around. During the turn he impulsively makes the decision to go "rescue" the model plane. The student agrees.

Without much planning, the CFI makes an approach to the tops of the trees. No circling for a bit to figure things out, no checking the wind (although it appears the wind was pretty calm that day), no checking for obstacles/wires, no high/low recon, no nothing. Just ZOOP! down into the trees he goes! He asks the student to clear his tail. After retrieving the object they land and hand it over. Full of adrenaline, ego and good cheer, the instructor gives the controls back to the student who makes a very quick departure without so much as any sort of pre-takeoff checks.

I have a little problem with this.

First of all, it sets an awful example for the student, who may be inclined to pull the same sort of stunt after he gets rated. That CFI clearly is deficient and substandard, teaching all sorts of bad habits to his students. He should be re-evaluated by the FAA.

Me? I would've taken my time and figured out in advance how I was going to do it. I would've gone slowly. I would have come to an OGE hover before getting into the trees. I would've cleared my own tail or I wouldn't have even attempted it. Now, I'm not saying that I would've taken all day to do this thing - I just would not have rushed it as fast as the CFI obviously did. And I've got tons more time than he.

Finally, I hate...REALLY REALLY hate people who just "pull and go" on takeoff. What's the rush? Take your time, man. "Okay, gauges are up, lights are out, we've got plenty of fuel and the wind....ahhh, there's not much wind so we'll go out this way. You lift to a hover, check hover power and if all is still well, then you go. Is there any other way? When I was at PHI there were days when I'd do 70-80 flights per day. And I'd do that little pretakeoff check before EVERY one of them, even if I had just landed to drop off one guy and was only down at idle for a couple of seconds. You don't rush. Rushing gets you killed.

If the pilots that school is turning out fly like that CFI, we're in trouble. Because he is teaching them some very bad philosophies, habits and techniques. Sure, helicopters can do plenty of things other than fly straight and level from one airport to another, but we have to operate them safely. And what that CFI did was absolutely not done in a safe, prudent or professional way. It was clear showboating for an impressionable student (who now thinks he's a skygod) and some people on the ground.

A bad, bad deal all around. Shameful.



Soapbox Mode: OFF

[toptobottom]

the trees would have cushioned the fall

Tell me you're a troll?! Maybe if you planned it right, you could use some of the lower branches to act like a spring board to flick you away from the ground at the last second too?

[Agaricus bisporus]

Ground effect from trees?? Whaaat???? And even if it did occur what do you suppose would happen as you slithered off the "ground cushion" with the crown of the next tree thirty yards ahead - and open air in between?

Trees cushion the fall?? You call surviving a nasty crash and then tumbling 80 feet with the all the wreckage plus getting kebabed by logs, branches and splintered bits of tree crashing down on top of you "cushioned" do you? Pin-cushioned more like.

Sheesh! Whatever you've been smoking has severely damaged your imagination and a lack of imagination can be hazardous around helicopters pal, as all this clearly demonstrates.

[Nigd3]

Well if the plank wing guys can do it.......

Small plane lands in tree; pilot walks away - YouTube

That was a joke by the way

[ShyTorque]

In UK a plane crash like that, if it had come from abroad, would be logged by Special Branch. The yanks should take a leaf out of that book.

[TRC]

It might get to the root of the problem, but they might not have twigged it yet.

[toptobottom]

I think you're barking up the wrong tree; bough out gracefully and leaf this to the experts

[misterbonkers]

Must'ang around...

[The Night Owl]

Sorry no troll, just cheated as was -80 kg on my todd so easy peasy

Not got many hours under my belt so probably not such a bad thing going solo

Mind you I fly for fun so am less inclined to give birth at the sight of someone in the avoid curve than some of you :p

Happy landings x x x

[Bitmonx]

Then keep flying solo is my best advise to you........

[Agaricus bisporus]

so easy peasy

At 100hrs a pilot thinks he knows it all.
At 500hrs a pilot knows he knows it all.
At 5000hrs he knows he'll never know it all.

I think we can place you pretty accurately on that scale pal...

[toptobottom]

...and a 50 hours pilot knows f*%k all - you're off the scale :ugh:

[strey]

Cool! I wish my CFI's would teach me stuff like this :)

[Ag-Rotor]

I would send my son to do his training with him.

[[email protected]]

I suggest you try actually having a crash in a helicopter (I have) so you understand just how quickly things can go wrong and just how unforgiving the ground is - all this bluster and bravado is just comical:ugh:

[Ag-Rotor]

You've only had one ??.... I don't need to be to told that gravity sucks and the ground is hard.

[chopjock]

crab
I suggest you try actually having a crash in a helicopter (I have)

You actually tried to have a crash ?:eek:

[[email protected]]

Doh! yes, poor syntax:{

[Thomas coupling]

Nigeh - haven't dissappointed you:D

I was offered good advice when I started flying:

If you're about to do something "out of the ordinary" with your aircraft, either:
(a) don't get caught, or
(b) have a good defence when the authorities/lawyers come after you.

Apply these to this incident.......................

These 'rules' never let me down.

We live in a world of litigation/H and S/moral and ethical blackmail. :(

[Agaricus bisporus]

Thomas, it's a shame we don't live in a world of Professionalism, Common Sense or Airmanship. If we did your last line would be both meaningless and redundant...

[Thomas coupling]

Agri...whatever your name is (is it some kind of bacterium?)

There was a time when I would denigrate an operator for doing this. Of course it smacks of poor professionalism, poor airmanship, la di dah...

But there was also a time when some lightweight helicopters were built for this purpose of wazzing close to the ground, dodging trees, water skiing behind them, doing aerobatics for the fun of it...

He got away with it - therefore he's (for some readers) a good guy. Next time, he'll clip the rotors and die - and for the rest of the readers he'll be a bad guy.

I think the reason I don't denigrate him (this time) is because he comes across as someone who "appears" to talk the talk and "appears" to handle the job in an orderly fashion with consideration for the surroundings.....I get the gut feeling he's an old and bold, been it done it and comes from that era where helo's were treated like expensive toys.

He's simply out of sync with the modern world's current way of thinking. And for that reason, he shouldn't have done this in public [or at the very least, not recorded the damn thing by sticking a camera in his damn cockpit???].
And he most certainly shouldn't have done it with a passenger on board...but doing what he actually did (hovering close to the top of a tree to pick something off it......no big deal edmondo) :E

[joecub]

after reading most posts, it occured to me that those pilots that approve of the video probably actually fly helicopters for a living, and those opposed teach. ;)

[Aucky]

I think the divide is more related to whether he should due doing this, in this manor, whilst teaching. I'm not sure many pilots, instructors or otherwise, would give a rats if it were two pilots both knowledgeable enough to understand and accept the potential consequences, and go about it with careful consideration (the question being whether it was gone about in the best way in an instructional environment, which they clearly are in). Most instructors probably spend more time in the 'avoid curve' to fulfil the syllabus requirements than commercial pilots flying CAT...

[[email protected]]

after reading most posts, it occured to me that those pilots that approve of the video probably actually fly helicopters for a living, and those opposed teach.

joe - I do both and I am often required to put a helicopter in far more dangerous positions than the guy in the video - sometimes to save lives, sometimes to train other pilots to save lives.

The point is that no-one says you can't do things like that in a helicopter - but shouldyou be doing things like that unless there is a very good reason.

I could drive at 120 mph on the motorway because speed is fun - I don't because it is also dangerous (not only to me but to others) - if I had to in order to save a life then I would approach it with some application of forethought and consideration of the risks involved.

Our friend in the video did neither.