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Comoman
29th Oct 2012, 22:14
1 - SQ invests A$105 million to become a shareholder.
2 - Virgin acquires Skywest
3 - Virgin buys 60% of Tiger Australia

Big news day!

waren9
29th Oct 2012, 22:20
one less domestic competitor i guess

Thatschecked
29th Oct 2012, 22:22
Tiger announces Virgin partnership - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-30/tiger-and-virgin-announce-partnership/4340834)


Tiger Airways says it is selling a 60 per cent stake in its Australian operations to Virgin Australia for $35 million.

Tiger Australia will also pay an undisclosed annual license fee to Tiger's Singapore-listed parent company for at least 20 years for use of the brand, with the fee based on a fixed percentage of gross revenue.

The Australian company will also pay its Singaporean parent $5 million if it achieves certain financial performance targets within five years.

Tiger and Virgin have agreed to invest up to a further $62.5 million between them to grow the low-cost Australian carrier, with plans to expand the fleet from 11 aircraft currently up to 35 by 2018.

Virgin Australia has been repositioning itself as a premium airline brand to compete in the business traveller market against Qantas, and its chief executive John Borghetti says this deal will keep a strong foothold in the budget travel market.

"This transaction enables Virgin Australia to access the budget market and enables Tiger Australia to expedite its growth, providing greater competition to this important market segment," he said in a statement.

The companies say Tiger Australia will be managed as a standalone business, with John Borghetti as its inaugural chairman under the new structure, and the position to be rotated every two years

Any truth to the rumour that a 'MOU' is being drafted as we speak regarding the use of Virgin crews transfering over to Tiger to help with the rapid expansion plans?

Higs
29th Oct 2012, 22:52
Simply put....NO.
Tiger has plenty of people lined up to cope with any expansion. Most of the Captains looking at going to Tiger would have more experience than the people in Virgin.

dragon man
29th Oct 2012, 23:04
So the domestic market will go back to 50/50 or so like the old TAA/ ANSETT days. In my opinion the only hope for Qantas would be for the board/Joyce to fold Jetstar back into Qantas with red tails and offer one common standard thru the airline for the customers. Do i think they will do it. No.

SenZubEanS
29th Oct 2012, 23:11
ASX Release on SkyWest (http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20121030/pdf/429sc9rtrt52qc.pdf)

Seems the Virgin Cadetship through SkyWest is even more guaranteed to land you a Virgin job now, haha

Thatschecked
29th Oct 2012, 23:17
Hi Higs

Thats not what I have heard, apparently discussions have already taken place regarding the many very experienced airbus pilots within the Virgin ranks and Tiger are keen to tap into this pool to help with the expansion.

There have also been discussions with the cadet training providers at Virgin/Skywest for a massive increase in the number of cadets that will now also be used in Tiger on the A320 :eek:

RodH
29th Oct 2012, 23:24
I reckon this is a very clever move by Virgin.
They can now compete with the " Rat " on every level.
The full service part will be quite popular with many and still leave plenty of the LCC part to Tiger which will satisfy many travellers as well.
This is all good for Virgin and the travelling Public.
I bet QF rue the day John Borghetti left them and joined Virgin.
It's good to see some proper competition on all levels.
:ok::ok::ok:

Anthill
29th Oct 2012, 23:26
Back to the Two Airline Policy. I'll bet AJ has turned purple with rage!

A lot of people will be jockying for position regarding who gets commands and where.

Interesting times ahead- I'm sure there are 1 or 2 other announcements in the pipeline as well.

ohallen
29th Oct 2012, 23:27
These transactions are breathtaking in their simplicity and impact on the strength of DJ going forward. Singapore must be smiling at the idiots across the road who had the audacity to start a fight with no ammunition and who now learn that there is a very serious player in town behind their discarded Exec.

DJ now have a structure to target both mainline and crapstar at the same time, albeit with only limited metal at this stage. Can anyone else see more coming over the horizon???

As the plan was named Game On and congratulations to all involved in showing how to run a company in the aviation business.

chookcooker
29th Oct 2012, 23:27
Do these super experienced TT drivers understand what a LSALT is?

Worrals in the wilds
29th Oct 2012, 23:29
Will there be any change in branding for Tiger?

SenZubEanS
29th Oct 2012, 23:46
Tiger brand will be licensed to operate under its current arrangement for 20 years.
So, no change there.

maggot
29th Oct 2012, 23:47
Do these super experienced TT drivers understand what a LSALT is?


FFS! :ugh:

good move by by JB, not entirely original of course, I just hope both parties VA management and staff have watched and learned from the ongoing debacle on the other side of the fence

Capt Basil Brush
29th Oct 2012, 23:50
Do these super experienced TT drivers understand what a LSALT is?

They do however know how to do a go-around and correctly work out their take-off data.

Keg
29th Oct 2012, 23:59
I hope VIPA and AFAP work quickly and well to sort out any seniority and integration issues. If you're junior in DJ then I'd be phoning today to get them onto it quick smart. Otherwise you may find all the expansion happening in another carrier who will recruit from outside leaving you at the bottom of the pile for a very, very long time.

Then you'll face the absurdity of a dude who has been with Tiger for five minutes getting his command in under a couple of years whilst you've been with DJ for five plus and will be waiting another five plus (or longer) for command.

The Bunglerat
29th Oct 2012, 23:59
Hey mods, we've got umpteen threads going on here about this "hot" topic. Time for a merge?

h.o.t.a.s.
30th Oct 2012, 00:13
...and how to negotiate a vastly improved EBA!!! :E:E:E

waren9
30th Oct 2012, 00:27
Keg

I don't understand your tone of an apparent sense of entitlement to jobs in another "list" just because your own employer has bought a stake in that company. I doubt many virgin pilots had been seriously considering a move to tiger before today.

All this assumes Virgin pilots will can go/will want to go and if so, on what terms.

I use the word apparent because that just how it seems. Whether you meant it that way, probably not?

Whatever the outcome, I hope it is negotiated to the satisfaction of all pilots in both groups, and doesn't leave future pilots of either party out in the cold.

insert smiley thumbs up here.

waren9
30th Oct 2012, 00:48
Do Virgin have anything like a scope clause in their EBA?

gobbledock
30th Oct 2012, 00:49
Back to the Two Airline Policy. I'll bet AJ has turned purple with rage!The fool has been caught asleep at the wheel yet again. While he struggles to turn a profit, is obsessed with rogering Engineers, allows his business customers to walk out the door, spends umpteen time in Canberra lobbying the labor incompetents and keeps his nose buried in his bonus calculator VA continue to smack him across the back ahead!!
Oh how I wish I had a crystal ball, would love to see the state of the game in say 5 years?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz1kmGKDuUE

Game on indeed.

Best Rate
30th Oct 2012, 00:52
Jay Bee, You've done it agaaaaaaaaain........ :ok:

B772
30th Oct 2012, 00:53
Skywest up 57.15% at present

Virgin up 9.1% at present

Qantas line ball at present and looking weak with more shares for sale than there are to buy.

Keg. I would be more concerned about your position in the QF group than making suggestions about the actions pilots in other airlines should be making.

Ps. I would expect Virgin to now join the Star Alliance.

Keg
30th Oct 2012, 00:56
waren. Sense of entitlement? Not really. Let me flesh it out a bit more.

There are a bunch of pilots in Tiger today. They deserve first shot at any Tiger promotions as Tiger expands. There are a bunch of pilots not in Tiger today who may be employed as F/Os as Tiger expands over the short to medium term. Let's say that a Tiger pilot employed next month has the opportunity with such rapid expansion to be considered for a command upgrade in two years time. Does not a Virgin pilot who has been employed with DJ 3-4 years ago not deserve the opportunity to at be considered for that promotional spot with Tiger next year prior to the person who is yet to be employed by Tiger?

B772, I remain concerned for my position in the QF group. I simply hope that DJ crew learn from our experiences. You know, share the knowledge? It's a CRM principle. I'm sure you've heard of it. :rolleyes: :ugh:

waren9
30th Oct 2012, 01:07
Does not a Virgin pilot who has been employed with DJ 3-4 years ago not deserve the opportunity to at be considered for that promotional spot with Tiger next year prior to the person who is yet to be employed by Tiger?

Yes, so long as the terms under which any such consideration might be given are negotiated and acceptable to both pilots groups prior to that situation occurring.

Still, a lot of water to go under the bridge before anyone gets to that point. Agree though, AIPA/VIPA should be making a list of questions for mgmnt smart like.

B772
30th Oct 2012, 01:13
Keg.

The QF crew did not learn from the experiences of others and I suspect the now Virgin Group crew will ignore any suggestions made by QF crew.

With the move to 139 aircraft with just over 9,000 employees the Virgin Group will be a thorn in the side for the QF group.

XRlent320
30th Oct 2012, 01:13
Virgin will only own 60% of Tiger so in reality there are no integration issues.

On the other hand they will own 100% of Skywest so that's where the seniority issues will lie. As a Skywedt employee I can assure you that there'll be 200 odd pilots who will want to sort these issues out ASAP as well. I would encourage the Virgin unions to contact the SALPA Committee.

angryrat
30th Oct 2012, 01:15
To the VBA, Virgin, VOz, Velocity and Skywest guys (or whatever you are called),

Use this EBA wisely! You have a lifeline, as some have alluded to elsewhere, the company tried to rush your EBA at the last minute for a reason. This could be your one and only chance to sort out a group seniority that works for all who are now under the Virgin Group. Once you get new hires, their sense of entitlement to quick commands will cause grief and issues. Bind together as a group with the ability to move about the group in a fair and sensible manner.

Remember, your hard work has put your company in the position to aquire these airlines or to be a valuable target :ok:

Take my word on this, as a QF group F/O with 15 years, I see no command for myself in the next 5 years. If our union and the JPC of the day had set it up in a different way I would have a command. As a result, all my hard work for the company saw the QF group divert funds from the Mainline operation into setting up numerous franchises of a LCC. The lack of investment in the product that I work for sees me with very little future.

Finally, well done to Virgin :ok: You guys are giving our arrogant management a shalacking.

ejectx3
30th Oct 2012, 01:51
Yes well done JB.

Meanwhile I met two very influential business owners this morning who told me they have taken all their corporate business away from Qantas as Joyce has ignored their protests at the lack of premium QF services worldwide. All they recieved in response to emails was an automated fob off.

Winning.

Roger Greendeck
30th Oct 2012, 01:52
It will be very interesting to see which way Virgin goes: integrate the workforce or keep them as penny packets.

The Qantas group seems to have taken the approach of divide as much as possible. From what I can tell, from a pilot employment perspective, there are mainline, Jetstar, Jetstar NZ, Jetstar Asia, Jetstar Japan, Jetstar Pacific, Eastern, Sunstate, Network, and Cobham all operating flights on behalf of the Qantas Group (might have missed a couple of Jetstars, its hard to keep track). There is some ability to move between companies but it is limited and not consistant.

It is my understanding that this is a deliberate strategy to ensure that the workforce is not able to exercise as much power as it would if it were all combined.

Virgin started off with a number of companies: Virgin Blue, Pacific Blue, Polynesian Blue and V Australia but for some time has been working on bringing them back under one company due to the belief that the the overhead of running so many businesses exceeded the benefits. The Skywest set up was a shift away from this but it may be temporary as the ATR operations are already Virgin branded and the Skywest west coast ops will all move under the Virgin brand. Tiger will apparently stay as a separate brand for the forseeable future.

Whilst there are always winners and loosers in the short term when seniority lists get banged together I can't help but think that in the long term there will be more winners in a combined pilot workforce. And more importantly it doesn't have to be at the expense of the company so Virgin can remain profitable whilst doing so.

Icarus2001
30th Oct 2012, 01:59
What I find surprising is that there have been no whispers about any of this in the last few days. So much for a rumour network.:sad:

piston broke again
30th Oct 2012, 02:04
Well done JB - stirring the pot with a little leprechaun shaped pole right now...

I'm wondering where would this put the new terminal in Perth which has been allocated to skywest and other FIFO operators? F100's to use bridges now in the new pier? Or will they still stay in the existing Terminal WA?

Fun times ahead. :ok:

intake
30th Oct 2012, 02:05
Angryrat --"This could be your one and only chance to sort out a group seniority that works for all who are now under the Virgin Group. "

So true, but you have a domestic group that just wants to put everyone at the bottom of ""their "" list. Go figure :ugh:

600ft-lb
30th Oct 2012, 02:07
Look at the other side of this deal, a final admission of defeat that SQ just couldn't make a go of it in Australia on their own and needs locals to do it for them ?

higherplane
30th Oct 2012, 02:26
Why do people think there is going to be a merging of the crews from the different companies? The guys at Network got a Qantas employee number, but as far as I'm aware they aren't on the seniority list.

Better staff travel could be a maybe for XR or Tiger but I can't see it going much further than that.

If they all merged on start date there would be at least 10 guys from XR that would have the highest seniority in the group.... That'd be a nice jump F100 captain to A330 Captain. Can't see that happening for some reason.

angryrat
30th Oct 2012, 02:31
G'day Intake,

Intergration is the way to go. You start off at the bottom of 'their' list whilst they start off at the bottom of 'your' list. It is set out that noone can be disadvantaged in 'their base'. I don't know a lot about the Virgin setup, but here goes an example or two:

All NZ base(PacBlu?) keep the seniority in that base, all the others join the bottom of that list on DOJ( or aquirement) or whoever negotiates first to have a reciprocal list. Ie a F/O in NZ gets first go at a command in NZ. Once all F/O's in NZ have had their go in NZ or passed up the opportunity then the next on the newly designed list gets a crack.

All new hires start at the bottom of all the lists based on DOJ.

donpizmeov
30th Oct 2012, 02:41
So does this mean that SQ will do all the Virgin long haul and EK does all the Qf long haul? Good for the pax but not too good for oz aviation careers.

The Don.

Mr snuffaluffagus
30th Oct 2012, 03:02
Angry Rat,

I agree with your idea and think it is the way to go on integration. However, Cruise FO's of which Intake may or may not be, hate the idea. That is because when they joined as cruise FO's they had no possibilty of progression unless they had significant hours to meet minimums for a 777 FO (most of whom did not). For the majority their only chance of progression was/is to resign and start again at VAA. So to use this 'Silo' approach leaves them with little as they do not qualify for their 'protected' 777 FO slots.

grrowler
30th Oct 2012, 03:20
So they joined as crfo's without much experience (perhaps without the requirements for domestic), knew there was no progression, and are now not happy that they would have a chance to progress in domestic. Poor fellas:rolleyes:

intake
30th Oct 2012, 03:21
Mr snuffaluffagus,
No not a CRFO, but " hate the idea" of it not being a even playing field. As for
"protected FO slots" and you could put "protected command slots" on that list are only protected for one group, domestic crew. It's all one way- short haul to long haul but not vice versa (except for CRFO's). Integration is integration, not segregation.

Jack Ranga
30th Oct 2012, 03:26
One airline builds its brand,

The other is destroying it.

Respect :ok:

porch monkey
30th Oct 2012, 03:36
Well, the EBA hasn't been signed yet. Good thing it seems........ Guess we now know why management wanted it sorted as soon as possible.

Falling Leaf
30th Oct 2012, 03:42
unless they had significant hours to meet minimums for a 777 FO


Out of interest, what are these minimums?

moa999
30th Oct 2012, 04:09
Big win for Tiger and Skywest employees... however for all winners expect some losers.

Interesting now Virgins ownership - Branson 26%, Air NZ 20%, Etihad 10%, Singapore 10% -- 66% before you count anyone else on the register - hardly Virgin "Australia" anymore.
With all these shareholders sitting around the board table I can't see Virgin getting many more international aircraft - they don't want the competition

And a nice way for SQ to effectively get rid of Tiger Australia without "loss of face"

ranmar850
30th Oct 2012, 04:23
Yes well done JB.

Meanwhile I met two very influential business owners this morning who told me they have taken all their corporate business away from Qantas as Joyce has ignored their protests at the lack of premium QF services worldwide. All they recieved in response to emails was an automated fob off.

Winning.

As a Rio Tinto employee, we have always used Qlink when flying outside charter commutes,significant number of bums on seats. A directive came from management recently, we are to use VA for these flights from now on wherever possible. And we ARE following that directive,I flew out of Newman on the E-jet last weekend.

Lookleft
30th Oct 2012, 04:33
So let me get this straight-

One of the airlines of the domestic duopoly is buying a major share of a LCC as a vehicle for growth
Pilots are salivating at the thought of quick promotion and getting hot under the collar as to who has the greater seniority.
Singapore Airlines is seen as the great benefactor with "big plans"
One of the regional entities is called Skywest
:sad: Why after 20+ years in airlines does nothing change yet we think the wheel has just been invented.

"May you live in interesting times" is a Chinese curse not a blessing.:\

VH-Cheer Up
30th Oct 2012, 04:51
And a nice way for SQ to effectively get rid of Tiger Australia without "loss of face"
Not really. Remember SQ just upped its stake in Virgin Australia so maintains a beneficial interest.

Not sure why all the concern about seniority. The reports indicate the operations will be kept 'strictly separate' so no blurring of the boundaries or transfer of value (revenues or costs) between the entities - unlike the red white silver orange conglomerate. I foresee someone at Tiger wanting to transfer to Virgin would have to apply, win the job, and resign from their previous post. Seniority would be part of the salary structure negotiation at the time of application/offer of employment. Good luck with that!

The Green Goblin
30th Oct 2012, 05:09
And with the Tiger fleet about to treble, don't be suckered into an MOU type agreement.

Virgin Pilots are now more expensive than Tiger Pilots. It might not be JB, but the next bean counter to trick their way into the hot seat will no doubt be dreaming up their KPI bonus.

Whilst all these moves are great for Virgin and JB is showing his outstanding management ability, Qantas has already done all this.

I just hope for the Virgin folk that the execution is a little more humane than the big fist style on coward street.

Keg
30th Oct 2012, 05:41
The QF crew did not learn from the experiences of others and I suspect the now Virgin Group crew will ignore any suggestions made by QF crew.

B772, which part of 'learn from the mistakes made by QF group pilots' do you not get? :ugh:

D'pirate
30th Oct 2012, 06:06
SMH article Qantas under attack on all fronts | Virgin Australia (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-under-attack-on-all-fronts-20121030-28gwr.html) puts it well! :D

Anthill
30th Oct 2012, 06:44
Great posts and sdage advice from KEG and Angryrat. Very important for the VAA guys to get the scope clauses in their EBA RIGHT!

Whilst there are some VB pilots who are salivating at the chance for A320/F100 commands, I doubt that this will happen. Read between the lines of the Press Release: Skywest and Tiger will retain their existing operational structure. There will be no way that VB pilots can expect to usurp the current promotional paradigm at XR or the Tiger.

What has been revelealed is the (disgusting!) propensity for Australian pilots to demend entitlement to promotions that are not rightfully theirs. I am tired of the dummy-spits from those who seek to change the rules to suit themselves. This 'attribute' of Australian pilots will be/is the instrument of our downfall! Without fair and reasonable dealings with other pilots, there will never be any improvement in our Ts&Cs.

As examples:

1) As a group, the VB pilots expect a group Date of Joining list to apply to all promotions: except when it comes to commands at VB. In the later instance, the perspective is that promotions there 'belong' to the VB FOs. The result of this is that B777 commands are to be awarded to domestic captains. The cohort of B777 Senior First Officers cannot gain a B777 command, nor can they be considered for a B737/ejet command. I suppose that the VB pilots think that this is fair!

2) Plenty of the CrzFOs on the B777 had the same experience that would have gotten them in VB. Most guys and gals had 4-6000 hrs and previous Regional and /or GA jet command time on coming to the B777-Please stop perpetuating this myth that they are inexperienced (Growler!)! Several CzFOs have held B727, B737 and B757 FO positions and have above the 2000+ hrs. jet FO time to be a SFO (unless you are a protected species VB FO- only need 1000hrs).

*****

A few nights ago, I had a few beers with amte who is a Qantas Captain. We engaged in dicourse regarding the state of the industry and he coined the phase "era of smartarse politics" . I instinctively knew what he meant. We have come to a point where what people can legally get away with becomes the standard for behaviour. At one time, people knew that what separated right-from-wrong was defined by cultural mores and accepted social norms. The law became a backstop if there was a point of contention. "Smartarse Politics now is a cancer that pervades our National and industrial politics.

The letter of the law (which should be seen as a minimum standard) now becomes the accepted norm. If it legal, then it is OK. So if it is legal to behave immorally or unethically, it is still ok. As one VB capatin told me "there are more of us than there are of you and we will get our way at your expense-that's the democratic process". Really? So it is ok to ruin the career propects of other pilots just because you can vote it that way? Nice. I mean, really nice! :rolleyes:

The only 2 ways to apply a promotional system across the Virgin group are either silo the business units so as the existing pilots have opportunities in their chosen group or group DoJ with no ifs, buts or exceptions. Anyone who what one set of rules for promotions one way, but not the other is being a smartarse.:cool:

Fortunately, most smartarses outsmart themselves; the new low that they set for themselves will come back to haunt them. These pilots are our natural industrial enemies. For obvious reasons, I call them bricklayers.:suspect:

Roger Greendeck
30th Oct 2012, 06:56
Well said.

intake
30th Oct 2012, 08:13
Anthill, great post. As I said - even playing field would be nice. :D

Mr snuffaluffagus
30th Oct 2012, 08:43
Intake,

I agree with what you are saying. It appears that the traffic is a little one way. Personally I would like to see everyone have their career progression prospects that they had when they signed on met as a starting point, then integrate under the provision that no group of pilots has a windfall at anothers expense.

ohallen
30th Oct 2012, 09:32
It is very interesting how this good news story for aviation and business intellect, has degenerated into an issue about rights of a specific group of employees before the ink is dry.

Perhaps it shows the heightened sensitivities based on history, but this is potentially a very significant industry event that is worthy of letting the dust settle before you start slugging it out between each other as to who should get what.

If the company does well then all will prosper even if it is mainly owned offshore, because there is no way that with the rat anyone will prosper except the select few at the top.

RATpin
30th Oct 2012, 11:09
Well said that Man!

adsyj
30th Oct 2012, 12:40
Not sure why all the concern about seniority. The reports indicate the operations will be kept 'strictly separate' so no blurring of the boundaries or transfer of value (revenues or costs) between the entities - unlike the red white silver orange conglomerate. I foresee someone at Tiger wanting to transfer to Virgin would have to apply, win the job, and resign from their previous post. Seniority would be part of the salary structure negotiation at the time of application/offer of employment. Good luck with that!

I agree with Mr VH-Cheer Up and Anthill (An excellent post by the way)

I read it as no intergration.

As for the deal I was never great at business but I do see this as a risky deal. JB is looking at growing the group as he should and he is a good fella, but he has paid $35mil for 60% of an Airline losing $15mil a month, sold 10% of Virgin at market price, agreed on cofunding another $60mil for further aircraft purchases for Tiger.and launched a takeover bid for Skywest Effectively already spending the $100 odd mil Sing has paid plus more of Virgins cash.On top of that Tiger Austhhas to pay an annual Licence fee to Sing Air for the next 20 years plus a further $5mil if they hit certain financial targets.

I'm sure if anyone can turn around Tiger JB can, he has the runs on the board and is a genuine Aviation Manager with real experience. It is surely a positive the Tiger guys and girls but as I read it he and his management teram are going to have to work their tits off to stop the cash burn at Tiger.

Interesting times that is for sure but I am not sure intergration of the Pilot Group is at the top of the to do list just yet.

Roger Greendeck
30th Oct 2012, 12:41
I don't know about degenerated. This is a pilot's network after all, so how this affects pilots is likely to come up immediately and is entirely appropriate.

It is true that if the company profits every employee should do well even if they are stove piped in their current company within the group. but this does not mean that the pilot group could not collectively do better together.

Mr Snuffaluffagus, it would be great if we could all have the same career prospects that existed when we joined our employers (assuming they were good to start with) but that doesn't exist in any company, regardless of mergers or take overs. I know that if the lists are integrated traffic will not be all one way. And what constitutes a windfall at the expense of someone else? Not everyone wants the same thing, and what we want or need changes over time. So whilst an opportunity may disappear for some n the short term that same person may benefit from a different option down track that would otherwise not have been available.

grrowler
30th Oct 2012, 13:47
anthill, I was responding to a post which said the crfo's joined with little experience and no illusions of progression. If they are infact experienced, then I retract. Regardless, from where I sit, it appears that (similar to Jetstar and the MOU) while there was a general understanding that there was no career path, it was hoped that it would change. It hasn't to date.

When one looks at how various operations came into existence, one sees an example of new lows becoming the standard, and I can understand why a long serving VB employee may feel a sense of being denied a career opportunity on the 777(again similar to QF/JS and the MOU). Of course thats just the way VB wanted to set up their LH operation, so its legal, it's ok.

While we are putting myths to bed, the so called "protected species" vb fo's require 2000 hours jet, not 1000, to become a SFO (senior FO wtf is that anyway?) so check your sources.

I certainly agree though that it is disgusting that pilots will step all over each other when they sniff any sort of opportunity. Hopefully the VA integration can be clearly resolved so that this kind of behaviour can't reap any benefit.

Soup Nazi
30th Oct 2012, 20:11
I don't know why you guys are getting so exited, last I checked Tiger is making big losses with no sign of stemming the outflow of cash and so is VA. So basically JB has paid out 35M to pay 60% of Tigers debts. VA now has a branding issue with a mess of mismatched interiors, paint jobs service inconsistencies, poor on time performance and now another brand that to the public is not in any way associated with VA.

My long term money is still on QF coming through although it may take a change of some top brass.

SN

Tidbinbilla
30th Oct 2012, 20:18
Righto. Let's get back on topic, shall we?

Hoofharted
30th Oct 2012, 20:25
Yippee, instant commands for all, instant integration of all seniority numbers with me on the top getting what the world owes me :ok:

These entities will be kept separate with their own AOC's and management structure, the only changes being cosmetic, the inclusion of the velocity flyer programme, perhaps some changes to the terms and conditions of carriage and a seamless check-in between the various entities that are under the whole umbrella. But keep dreaming :ugh:

Algie
30th Oct 2012, 20:49
Emotion about LCC offshoots aside it looks like JB has sensibly put a floor under VB's domestic yields ensuring that growth in the bucket and spade brigade segments doesn't erode his upper class VB operation. Qantas did it with JQ but hasn't managed all aspects well.

There is no way that JB will drive VB growth down into the Tiger cost structure-that's the very opposite of what he's doing as he seeks to knock Qantas off the Citiflyer perch. I doubt that one molecule of his thinking apparatus is focussed on a purely cost driven approach for higher yield markets. He understands value as a proposition.

Having said that I wouldn't be putting the family fortune into VB stock just yet. The path ahead for the Qantas Group might not seem clear or wonderful today but JB is not the only smart guy in the room. A new generation of QF management would have a much bigger springboard to use to launch into a "real" new future should the board choose to go that way.

Exciting times

Soup Nazi
31st Oct 2012, 00:41
Algie
I think your spot on there. But on the opposite side of the coin no longer will QF have to lower the price of the QF mainline (domestic) product to cover the VA "upper class" product which has until now been priced to cover both the low cost and the premium markets. In a way the way foreword is now clearer for QF, all they have to do now is pitch mainline against VA, interesting few years ahead indeed.

SN

maui
31st Oct 2012, 00:55
I never cease to be amazed at the number of managment and business experts we have in the pilot ranks.

The industry is truely blessed. ;)

Maui

XRlent320
31st Oct 2012, 00:56
Tiger going from 11 to 35 A320's sounds like significant growth. Put it into context with the timeframe involved (ie 2018) and its only 4 new aircraft per year. Hardly what you would call massive expansion.

I wouldn't be too worried if I was a Virgin FO.
In fact, the feed it will pass on to V-OZ, PAC bro and Domestic will probably create more growth than if they weren't aligned with Virgin.

Same goes with Skywest, there may be initial downturns as destinations like Broome, Newman etc are rationalized but overall the feed that the XR network will provide to Virgin will probably grow the A330 operation sooner.

neville_nobody
31st Oct 2012, 06:01
There will be no intergration if you believe what JB said in the papers. All will remain seperate, so they can compete for the work. If the ejet gets to expensive you just farm it out. Same with the 737. So good luck negotiating EBAs in that sort of climate.

Good for Virgin group though, bit of a masterstroke if they pull it off.

wheels_down
31st Oct 2012, 11:08
VAH States that they will now search for a new CEO for Tiger Australia. So the man who bought the carrier back to life, without a hitch to date, gets the chop?

Does this have something to do with the fact that he was COO at VA before he resigned in 2010?

psycho joe
31st Oct 2012, 22:08
Does this have something to do with the fact that he was COO at VA before he resigned in 2010?

When JB fires you - you stay fired.
If you try to make an industry come-back, he buys the company and fires you again. :D

PoppaJo
31st Oct 2012, 23:56
Interesting timing in that Tiger has just appointed a new Commercial Director, Carly Brear from Easyjet.

HF3000
1st Nov 2012, 02:36
When JB fires you - you stay fired.
If you try to make an industry come-back, he buys the company and fires you again.

That made my day... :D

billyt
1st Nov 2012, 02:45
But with someone else's money.

porch monkey
1st Nov 2012, 09:16
Well shit billy, why would you do it with your own, if you don't have to?:ok:

Green wave
22nd Nov 2012, 23:10
Give the guys in management enough rope and they will hang themselves. If you go from Domestic ops to International ops do you require an interview?, even though it is one big happy company:suspect:? is it based on date of Joining?

PLJ
23rd Nov 2012, 07:14
Missed out on one of the commands Green wave?

ASY68
25th Nov 2012, 01:01
Hi guys,

I was wondering how the recent buy out would affect XR and their A320s? Would they be transfered to TT?

Skystar320
25th Nov 2012, 01:25
Why would they be transfered to TT? Seperate AOC, seperate company...

T-Vasis
25th Nov 2012, 09:03
It is all really quite straight-forward; Virgin's strategy isn't working, so they had to purchase a controlling stake in Tiger, and Tiger's business isn't successful, otherwise they would not need someone to take them over...

Scamp Damp
25th Nov 2012, 09:04
It is all really quite straight-forward; Virgin's strategy isn't working, so they had to purchase a controlling stake in Tiger, and Tiger's business isn't successful, otherwise they would not need someone to take them over...

.... I'll have what he is smoking ...

RATpin
25th Nov 2012, 10:19
Thought I witnessed some QF muppet on the box pushing that line this evening.

T-Vasis
26th Nov 2012, 07:53
Ha ha ha - that is correct. I was hoping someone would have picked it up...

Mr Strambi made it a big point in front of the media.

Disappointing really. Let your product win hearts. Don't sink to competitor bashing.

galdian
26th Nov 2012, 09:39
Going back a while regards Tiger Oz CEO: apparently his performance has been well noted by the Singapore connections and his talents will not be lost, not expected to be jobless - maybe more a question of where he pops up.

If Singapore have $$ tied up in any venture they will ensure they have input and influence, anyone who thinks this will be a circus with JB as the SOLE ringmaster is a tad off the mark IMHO.

All assuming the deal comes off....

joblogs1
4th Dec 2012, 09:35
So does this mean Singapore has an airline link in aus that is 51 % Aussie owned ( I realise virgin isn't exactly Aussie owned) and just through the final 100 mil in to make this happen?????

MELKBQF
6th Dec 2012, 02:45
When JB fires you - you stay fired.
If you try to make an industry come-back, he buys the company and fires you again.

Just been announced Andrew David is off to JQ.

ANCDU
6th Dec 2012, 04:59
What could possibly go wrong? Singapore Airlines and Air New Zealand fighting over shares in an Australian airline, sounds like a match made in heaven...oh hang on :ouch: