Hurricane Sandy shuts down East Coast US

[ImPlaneCrazy]

I see Sandys managed to shut down flights into New York, Boston and Philidelphia effective as of tomorrow AM. Aer Lingus + BA cancelled all ops so far...

British Airways News - Latest BA News (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/flightops/public/en_gb?p_faqid=4501)

[WASPERNATOR]

It'll save them a packet. Re-book all PAX and save the fuel on all the CNX flights?

[Locked door]

BA's load factor to JFK is over 90%, with I think nine wide bodies a day and one A318.

Where exactly do you think these pax will be re booked to? :ugh:

This will cost BA (and others) a packet.

[LLuCCiFeR]

BA's load factor to JFK is over 90%, with I think nine wide bodies a day and one A318.

Where exactly do you think these pax will be re booked to? :ugh:With the competition of course! ;)

[NWT]

They can fly with Virgin, they have operated this evening's flights to New York

[hei yu]

VS flights to and from New York, Washington and VS11 to Boston on Monday 29 October 2012 have been cancelled.
Ref Latest news | Virgin Atlantic (http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/us/en/travel-information/customer-service/latest-news.html)

[pigboat]

Mmm, what about tomorrow?

Well, discretion being the better part of valour...

KJFK 282325Z 2900/3006 02024G34KT 6SM -DZ OVC020
FM290600 02026G40KT 6SM -RA OVC015
FM291200 02032G45KT 6SM -RA OVC015
FM291500 02037G55KT 5SM RA OVC010
FM291800 04042G60KT 2SM +RA OVC007
FM300000 08045G65KT 2SM +RA OVC007
FM300500 13040G60KT 2SM +RA OVC007

KLGA 282325Z 2900/2924 04025G30KT 6SM -DZ OVC020
FM290600 04026G38KT 6SM -RA OVC015
FM291200 03032G45KT 6SM -RA OVC015
FM291500 02037G55KT 5SM RA OVC010
FM291800 04042G62KT 2SM +RA OVC007
FM292300 06045G65KT 2SM +RA OVC007

[Capt Claret]

Coming from a locale where visibility is in metres or kilometres, is "SM" in the above statute miles?

[zlin77]

Capt. Claret, you are spot on...

[By George]

Hmm....with a wind of 040/42G60kts should be able to pull up on 04R about half-way. Nice.

[Basil]

May not be desirable to have one's aircraft on the ground on the east coast.
The USN has sent a large part of its Norfolk fleet to sea for a jolly roll around.

[Row 12F]

I see at least one airline, an ultra low cost, is braving the storm.

'Spirit Airlines' has an A320 scheduled flight, NK103, from Boston to Fort Lauderdale at 38,000 ft SE of Baltimore. (10:17 UK time) (Plane Finder ? Flight Radar and Live Flight Tracking (http://planefinder.net/))

Seems to have flown right down the East coast. And they apparently charge for the coffee on board.

[Alex757]

Rather them than me :P

[Shamrogue]

KJFK 291051Z 02023G33KT 6SM -RA BR BKN018 OVC023 12/11 A2936 RMK AO2 PK WND 02034/1015 SLP942 P0000 T01220106 $
TAF: KJFK 291120Z 2912/3018 02030G40KT 6SM -RA OVC012
FM291500 02034G45KT 5SM RA OVC008
FM291800 03038G55KT 2SM +RA OVC007
FM300000 08042G60KT 2SM +RA OVC007
FM300200 13045G65KT 3SM SHRA OVC010
FM300500 15038G60KT 4SM -SHRA OVC015
FM301100 16032G50KT 6SM -SHRA BKN035
FM301700 16028G42KT P6SM BKN050

tomorrow looks lovely too!

Will BA/VS etc put on extra a/c? With such high load factors, obviously there are not many seats to pop people onto!

What happens in this kind of scenario?

[Capn Bloggs]

I see at least one airline, an ultra low cost, is braving the storm.
Flying over or around revolving storms is no big deal provided you keep away from the nasty red bits. The big deal is what happens when you get on the ground.

Given the flight's destination is miles away from the action, I'd say "what's the problem", especially given it's only a Cat 1.

[Jetjock330]

The Carnarsti approach would've been most interesting to watch;)

[wiggy]

Shamrogue

Will BA/VS etc put on extra a/c?

Tricky at best - there aren't many if any spare aircraft, there few spare crews (and many out of position, holed up on the eastern seaboard), and no/few spare slots into the likes of LHR. Once the flights start up again they'll obviously fill the flights flights they do operate, and possibly move passengers onto any flights/other carriers that do have spare seats, which might perhaps mean asking people to travel to their intended destinations via alternative routes.

[RAT 5]

BA's load factor to JFK is over 90%, with I think nine wide bodies a day and one A318.

Headlines: "BA charters QE 3 to replace 10 flights."

The USN has sent a large part of its Norfolk fleet to sea for a jolly roll around. FM300200 13045G65K

But then again, perhaps not. It's their back yard so I assume they know what they are doing.

I see at least one airline, an ultra low cost, is braving the storm.
Seems to have flown right down the East coast. And they apparently charge for the coffee on board.

The gritty bulldog spirit has migrated west. They'll make a fortune on re-fills.

I wonder how long before someone publishes a thread of a/c diverting on fumes. I hope the minimum fuel guys stay at home and let the gas-guzzlers into the ring.

[seat 0A]

Now I don't want to make the the wrong impression here. I know Sandy is a serious weather system.
But....

I have landed a B737 in 65 kts wind gusts before. I know many others here on the forum have as well. Especially those from the North Western part of Europe. We have storms like this every autumn / winter in these parts.
What makes this so different?
Are our storms here so much different from the Hurricanes? Or have we all been very careless in the past and will the lawyers simply not allow it anymore from now on? Is it all about liability?

[Locked door]

What is the max operating ground wind speed for a 737? IIRC the airbus is 60 knots. Ramp operations become very dangerous for ground staff at those wind speeds.

Just because you can do it doesn't mean it is a sensible thing to do.

Better to take a delay, and operate more safely later.

[FerrypilotDK]

.....and so all the intrepid Flightsafety students arrived at Wilmington today from all over the world, only to be told that the guv had declared an emergency, so they had to close(!) As of now, it is just raining, so several tried to get the ground instructor to do the class at the hotel, so they could start with Sim when emergency is over......nope.

My FO has birthday today, but all the shops, restaurants etc closed and we are not permitted to drive(!)

As long as we keep power, we have some water and sandwiches etc. but if the power goes, only emergency lighting, no running water, no heat, no frig or micro to heat food. Exciting! La la la

Iceland and northern Denmark, Scotland all have this level of rain and wind, but the worst is yet to come. High tide now, storm surge on the coast and up to 8 inches rain forecast......

We will see........

[shroom]

The Carnarsti approach would've been most interesting to watch
That would be "Canarsie."

[casablanca]

Probably not worth risking a landing in 55 knot winds and then get on the ground to find that nobody is there to service the aircraft as I am sure many will fail to show up for work due the massive evacuations ordered.

[cavortingcheetah]

Jfk 291451z 03027g38kt 5sm -ra br bkn014 ovc025 14/12 a2913 rmk ao2 pk wnd 04041/1437 slp865 p0001 60003 t01390122 57062
kjfk 291436z 2915/3018 03032g44kt 4sm -ra ovc012
fm291800 03036g52kt 2sm +ra ovc008
fm300000 08042g60kt 2sm +ra ovc007
fm300200 13045g65kt 3sm shra ovc010
fm300500 15038g60kt 4sm -shra ovc015
fm301100 16032g50kt 6sm -shra bkn035
fm301700 16028g42kt p6sm bkn050

[overstress]

And then find a stray luggage bin embedded in the side of your fuselage. Or the aircraft blown sideways into a jetway. Or worse. :ugh:

http://www.erh.noaa.gov/iln/Gallery/Damage/damage57.jpg

[matthewsjl]

Flightaware gives an idea of just how little air traffic there is over NYC this morning:

FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KEWR)

One made it out of EWR a little while ago and is routing round the weather:
FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL6860/history/20121029/1000Z/KEWR/KMCO)

[LGW Vulture]

Yep, they had to get some of the guys down to MCO for NBAA's convention....:D

[172driver]

We have storms like this every autumn / winter in these parts.

No we don't - certainly not sustained 90mph winds.

On a different note - as part of my work I once flew as pax through a hurricane (Floyd) with the US Hurricane Hunters in a C130. Impressive, to put it mildly, but also surprisingly smooth ride, even when punching through the eye wall.

[UncleNobby]

Seat 0A - Public transport shut down in NYC, BOS etc. How are employees/PAX supposed to get to/from the airport? Everyone jump in their car? Its not just wind. Storm surge 6-10 ft forecast in NYC area, 3-6 ft elsewhere. Hopefully it wont be that bad and we will be back up and running soon. A storm that affects 50 million people is a pretty serious event.

[fleigle]

FerrypilotDK,
Sorry you have been inconvenienced, such is life.
Consider yourself fortunate to be in Wilmington (a dubious fortune normally) as you are at the SW edge of this nasty storm.

[Count von Altibar]

Those actuals happen every winter at Belfast City Airport! What's the big deal..?

[galaxy flyer]

172driver

I've spoken to some of the Hunter pilots over the years. They all said many storms, with a good nav working the radar, would be very smooth, BUT, every once in awhile, you would be positive that you wouldn't survive the turbulence. They only lost one, IIRC, appears to have LOC at low altitude. Not much was found.

[seat 0A]

172 driver, the TAF for JFK indicates only gusts up to 65 kts. Maximum sustained wind is 45 kts. Too much for a 172, but for a large jet?
Again, not wishing to sound dismissive, but the TAF for JFK is really not that extraordinary for any given major airport in NW Europe.

edit: only thing I could find quickly was a maximum surface wind at Amsterdam Schiphol at October 27, 2002 of 69 kts.
The country didn't shut down that day. But then again, only 16 million people affected :)

Now if the governor decides to shut down the entire state, the economics of continuing to fly are of course not good. I understand that.

[L'aviateur]

The USN has sent a large part of its Norfolk fleet to sea for a jolly roll around. FM300200 13045G65K

But then again, perhaps not. It's their back yard so I assume they know what they are doing.

Standard practice, much safer at sea then risking damage alongside.

[DADDY-OH!]

What's all the fuss about?

Just seen the footage of Atlantic City, NJ, today as the storm approached.

It's just like Blackpool on a good day.

[No longer ATC]

Think it was a joke..."Canasty"....

[UncleNobby]

You guys are right. Its just a hurricane. All of the Podunk airports the world over would be fully operational right now, handling their hundreds of passengers without pause!!

[Two's in]

In 2011 the US news media rather carelessly missed predicting the extent and coverage of the "Hallowe'en Nor'easter" only a few months after wildly underestimating the ferocity and damage associated with Hurricane Irene as it hit the North East. As a consequence, the US news media have introduced a new weather reporting system:

Level 1 - Oh my Christ, it's coming and there's nothing you can do.
Level 2 - Dear God, the water's coming in and the roof just came off.
Level 3 - I've just peed my pants.
Level 4 - Somebody not living in New York fell in a puddle.

Not to underestimate the danger and damage associated with Sandy, but the hysteria is helping no-one.

[evansb]

...and yet life and commerce will go on. It puts into perspective the large amount of non-essential air travel, doesn't it? Looking at it with a jaundiced eye, is not most travel non-essential these days? ("I simply must go to Tuscany, its on my bucket list!") When the Trans-Atlantic cable was laid, people said ocean travel would be drastically reduced. With conference calling in the 1960s, and now with internet, SAT phones and HD i-pads, do we really need to cross the Atlantic by the thousands every day? Let alone the Pacific and every continent on the globe. ... Yes, in an aviation forum, these are heretical posits, so classify me a pariah. Have I traveled overseas and crossed continents? Yes, call my a hypocrite, but I truly do not yearn to see Machu Picchu, The Louvre, or the solid waste and sewage contamination problems on the formerly pristine Galapagos Islands. Have I seen Chichen Itza? Yes. Am I better for it? Nope. Before you type me a barb, remember I said "most travel" not all travel.

[galaxy flyer]

My homedrome, KBDL, routinely deals with 8"to 12" snowfalls, had 75" in six weeks several years ago; how is it London seems to stop at a few flurries? I was there a couple of winters ago, you could see grass thru the snow cover and people were acting like "Armageddon" had arrived.

Horses for courses, Seat 0A

[evansb]

The insufferable media has, of late, taken to calling all significant snow falls as "SNOWMAGEDDON". Puts a biblical doomsayer twist to it, doesn't it?

[Typhoon650]

The wind isn't the problem, but several feet of salt water blocking runways etc will be.

[TRY2FLY]

It sounds like flying into Sumburgh (Shetland Islands) on a winters day to me. Storm in a teacup....

[DavidWoodward]

My homedrome, KBDL, routinely deals with 8"to 12" snowfalls, had 75" in six weeks several years ago; how is it London seems to stop at a few flurries? I was there a couple of winters ago, you could see grass thru the snow cover and people were acting like "Armageddon" had arrived.

Horses for courses, Seat 0A



It does frustrate me. A little bit of snow and we crawl to work in traffic that you could never imagine. I remember a newsreader saying "Britain under siege" as she reported on the snow. I walked to work that day, opened the loading bay, moved the snow out of the way and unloaded my first truck at 5:30am...

[742]

Seat 0A -

Since the 1990s the practice of airlines in the United States has been to shut down the hubs in the face of major storms. The recovery is faster this way, and the operations will almost certainly be back to normal by Thursday. On the other hand attempts in the past to keep running resulted in so much chaos that recoveries could take over a week.

[Turbine D]

The things that make this storm unique is a combination of the hurricane, a strong cold front moving from the West and the jet stream running between the two. Presently, the hurricane is about an hour or two from the New Jersey shore with 90 mph (145 kph) sustained winds with gusts to 115 mph (185 kph). The size of the storm and wind field is the largest I can ever recall, see the spread below:
http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q609/DaveK72/29storm_image3-popup.jpg
For the New York airports, both KLGA and KJFK are along the southern small end of the Long Island Sound. The wind is coming out of the North, forcing the water to the South and this evening with high tide at 10PM EDT, the expected water level will be ~9-13 feet above normal plus whatever wave action and the full moon adds to the equation. We are 700+ miles inland to the West and are starting to see significant wind gusts, later tonight 50+ mph. Three of the Great Lakes, Ontario, Erie and Michigan are or will experience 20 feet waves. On top of all this will be loss of electrical power from all the trees that will fall and based on personal experience, it takes anywhere from 4 days to two weeks to restore electrical power. So, this is an exceptional weather event that many people will remember for a long time here in the Eastern USA.

[awblain]

JFK's on the ocean side of Long Island, which makes its outlook a bit cheerier than La Guardia, which is right in the neck of the sound. JFK's suffering form the pile up of water at the entrance to New York harbor where the shore kinks round from New Jersey to Long Island.

This is a link to the NWS's current surge prediction:
Hurricane SANDY (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at3+shtml/150352.shtml?gm_esurge#contents)

[golfyankeesierra]

Hey 0A,
only thing I could find quickly was a maximum surface wind at Amsterdam Schiphol at October 27, 2002 of 69 kts.
The country didn't shut down that day

Our country shut down before: flooding of '53 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_flood_of_1953)
That was also a superstorm: KNMI (dutch) (http://www.knmi.nl/cms/content/64479/watersnood_1953_ergste_natuurramp_van_de_20e_eeuw), but the wind wasn't the problem, the tide was...

BTW I also landed in 60kts+ gusts, won't ever do it again, it's stupid.
And why did we land? Because nobody had the guts to shut the airport down!

[Dushan]

FOX News reporting that water has just breached the levy at Laguardia and that at least one runway is under water.

[172driver]

172 driver, the TAF for JFK indicates only gusts up to 65 kts. Maximum sustained wind is 45 kts. Too much for a 172, but for a large jet?
Again, not wishing to sound dismissive, but the TAF for JFK is really not that extraordinary for any given major airport in NW Europe.

If you are indeed driving a commercial transport jet, then I hope I never have to fly with you. Btw, I have landed a 172 in 45 kts. The landing was uneventful, but the taxi to the stand was, errrrr, interesting. Both myself and the a/c lived to tell the tale, though :E



I've spoken to some of the Hunter pilots over the years. They all said many storms, with a good nav working the radar, would be very smooth, BUT, every once in awhile, you would be positive that you wouldn't survive the turbulence. They only lost one, IIRC, appears to have LOC at low altitude. Not much was found.


AFAIK the Hunters never lost one, I think you may be referring to one of the NOAA flights. May be wrong, though. In any case, take it from someone who's been in there - it's not a place you want to find yourself piloting any kind of a/c. Hurricane Hunters excepted, of course. FYI, they have to fly a pre-determined course through the storm in order to get consistent met data. No weaving and dodging. 12 hours in and out and in and out in one mission.

[FLCH]

Hurricane Sandy shuts down East Coast US
It sounds like flying into Sumburgh (Shetland Islands) on a winters day to me. Storm in a teacup....



Yeah Try to Fly, I'm about 80 miles from the coast in PA and have just lost part of my roof, storm in a teacup my ass......

[PEI_3721]

“BTW I also landed in 60kts+ gusts, won't ever do it again, it's stupid.
And why did we land? Because nobody had the guts to shut the airport down!"

Why look for a reason elsewhere? Make that decision yourself; discontinue the approach, go around, divert.

[Cameronian]

With high tide in New York due to have passed not too long ago, is there any news of how G-BOAD is riding out the storm? Even on the hard now (I believe) on Pier 86, she must be low enough to be at risk at high spring tide with the predi ted storm surge.

I heard that she already needed more than a little TLC - I just hope that it won't be "convenient" for her to become a casualty.

[coldair]

JFK Currently under water.

Parts of NY Subway flooded.

Live news :

Watch Good Day New York Live - New York News | NYC Breaking News (http://www.myfoxny.com/category/233393/watch-good-day-live)

[sherburn2LA]

can you set QNH to 940Mb in a jet then ?

[galaxy flyer]

172Driver

Look up "Swan 38" lost in the 70s in a Pacific typhoon. It was an USAF AD weather squadron WC-130. A couple of friends were in that unit shortly after the loss.

[galaxy flyer]

Baro reached 28.00" in ACY. There is a crane damaged by wind 1000' above the street in Manhattan. The size of this storm covers an area from southern France to Norway. Records set everywhere.

Good Luck FLCH

[fleigle]

Local news was just showing the CANG (California Air National Guard) guys loading up their C-17's with helo's and crews, heading to NC (North Carolina) to start rescue missions tomorrow.
They talked of 12-hour missions after Irene, rescuing people off their roofs while on NVG's.

[JanetFlight]

Hi to all...in my humble curiosity i have a question for those here who fly the big birds:

For example i am seeing through FlightAware and FR24 that for instance some airliners and some airlines didnt and dont deviate and flew over the "naughty Sandy". For example last couple of hours some canadian WestJet 737's from Florida and other sunny spots routed right above it on their way to Canada. So my question its as follows (and forgive me if its silly, but i really would love to know it):
-If per example one of these planes have a despressurization or other tech failure that could force it to start descending more rapidly to a lower altitude, how could they do it, right to the middle of the "RoallerCoaster"?
-Do they have any special procedures in these cases?
-Some other airlines/airliners keep doing the "roundabout" and dont pass over it, but others dont...any reason for that?

[tilos]

I just got off the phone with a friend who lives in North Dakota near the Canadian border. He said that since early this morning the snow has been nearly waist high and is still falling. The temperature is dropping way below zero and the north wind is increasing to near gale force. His wife has done nothing but look through the kitchen window and just stare. He says that if it gets much worse, he may have to let her in.

[Jetjock330]

Brilliant Tilos!


SHROOM,
From an earlier posting, we refer to it as the Carnasty approach (humor) ;)flown it a few times in A346

[Capn Bloggs]

Ball-tearer, Tilos! :D

[Capn Bloggs]

We need a bit of Sandy's snow around Prune...to cool down some hotheads! :ooh:

[RAT 5]

Btw, I have landed a 172 in 45 kts. The landing was uneventful, but the taxi to the stand was, errrrr, interesting. Both myself and the a/c lived to tell the tale, though

If that had been a cross wind on the duty runway and a major airport, and possibly 55kts, you could have landed on a very short, very wide runway. But your correct, the cross wind taxi would have been challenging.

Speaking of windy landings: there was a case at BHX years ago with a local crew B732. The cross wind on RW34 was challenging. They did the math and decided it was strong enough to land on the short cross RW24. Trouble was the next flight was going to TFS and needed RW33 for TODA, but the wind was out of limits. Solution was to ferry from RW24 to EMA and bus the pax there. Ops were not pleased not be consulted first because they would have advised a diversion there in the 1st place. Landing at destination might not always be deemed to best logistical solution. And if the ducks & gulls are on the ground it is food for thought.

[cldrvr]

Do I need to add anything?



http://pbs.twimg.com/media/A6d8yBhCcAET-QT.jpg:large

[oceancrosser]

Aaaah Bill, the runway seems kinda damp, go ahead and calculate our contaminated runway take-off weight.

[UncleNobby]

Pssh - happens in Belfast and NW Europe all the time.

[JanetFlight]

Still Looking Bad around NYC :=

Newark International Airport (http://www.fly.faa.gov/flyfaa/flyfaaindex.jsp?ARPT=ewr&p=0)

[Lookleft]

I bet all those Empire Flying boat Captains who said that land planes won't amount to anything are laughing their heads off.

[JammedStab]

So all the heroes that fly in 65 knot winds would have brought their aircraft into this storm in New York and had it damaged by a flood. Good job guys. We are all impressed by your flying skills.

[Mark in CA]

That must be the Watergate.

[dvv]

That must be the Watergate.

Had Sandy swung a smidge to the south, it would've been a picture from DCA. With the Watergate flooded a bit up the Potomac, too.