Night rating renewal 90 day rule

[nellycopter]

Hi guys,

Revalidating my night rating, I know I have to do three take off and landings as that's whats written everywhere.... Before carrying passengers.
My question is does it have to be from a licensed airfield ? As I can't find any more info on the exact rules ???

Thanks
Nelly

[Jet Ranger]

No, it doesn't.

JR

[jymil]

Not sure what license you have, the rules are slightly different.

FAR rules are described in Part 61.57b.
- 3 takeoffs and landings full stop on same type/class/category

JAR rules are described in FCL 2.026a and c
- 3 circuits including takeoff and landing on same type at night
- if you have an IR(H), then 3 circuits at daylight are sufficient

None of these rules say you have to do the circuits on a licensed airfield.
Note that you have to do the 3 landings on type (if there are type ratings). To illustrate:

FAA:
- 3 circuits on R22 -> you can take passengers on R22,R44,B206,..
- 3 circuits on AW139 -> you can take passengers on an AW139
JAA:
- 3 circuits on R22 -> you can take a passenger on an R22
- 3 circuits on B206 -> you can take passengers on a B206

[misterbonkers]

Hi Nelly,

If you haven't flown at night for 90days then you have to do 3 take offs and landings (ideally 'circuits') before you can carry passengers. Theres no flight time minimum so 0.1 and night would suffice (but you should feel comfortable with flying at night!)

These have to be done in the aircraft type.

[[email protected]]

So all you actually have to do is lift to the hover and land 3 times in the dark - circuits are just a nice bonus but not mandated - and this is how the CAA/JAR/FAA police safe flying??????:ugh:

[Evil Twin]

My understanding was that it needed to be 3 translational circuits, again though it does depend which regs you operate under.

[toptobottom]

So I could do my 3 'circuits' after not having flown at night for years and, regardless of how badly I performed, I'd be fine to take pax? Crazy. :}

[Evil Twin]

A little more to than that in oz C.A.O. 40.2.2 outlines the requirements in full. In NZ however, 3 translational circuits at night is all that is required.:ugh:

Nuts eh?

[misterbonkers]

I guess it relates to other threads - sensible private pilots either keep themselves current with regular practice and use the rating more as a get you home 5 minutes after officially dark when the weather is good. Landing at a well lit site or airfield.

Less sensible people might fly off in the pitch black with few references in rubbish weather.

[skadi]

- if you have an IR(H), then 3 circuits at daylight are sufficient

...that means 3 IR-Approaches within the last 90 days, not only IR(H)!

skadi

[jymil]

@sjadi: Not correct, 3 VFR Day approaches are sufficient to carry Pax at night if you have an IR. JAR FCL 2.026 is NOT about IR currency.

@ [email protected]: JAR specifically states 3 circuits.

[FERetd]

The JAA/EU Ops requirements seem unable to differentiate between an instrument approach and the subsequent visual landing.

Whilst an instrument approach is essentially the same whether day or night, the subsequent visual landing is not. Human factors includes a comprehensive section on day and night vision, seemingly overlooked by JAA/EU Ops.

Fortunately, the OGP guidelines take a more pragmatic view and require 3 night take offs and landings every 90 days and these are required to be undertaken at an offshore installation if offshore operations are conducted.

Bear in mind that the Regulatory requirements are the lowest acceptable standard, Operators may opt for more rigorous standards and other Organisations and Clients may demand them.

It always provides discussion at audit time.

[Flyinganaes]

Hi Guys. Are the rules different for flying helicopters at night? I have a fixed wing night rating but a very low houred ppl (h) with no extra ratings. In fixed wing in order to fly passengers you must do 3 take offs and landings in the previous 90 days. If you want to take passengers at night ONE of those take off and landings must be at night.

[nellycopter]

Anyways, went out last night to revalidate as weather was kind, did three landings at Sandtoft, in the dark, although closed, and a couple at home..
If anyone is about the doncaster area at night, nip over to brodsworth hall, each year they spend a fortune lighting the building and grounds up in neon and led lights.... Every tree, shrub and path is lit up, looks really good....

Nelly

[jymil]

Rules of JAR OPS3 or OGP recommendations or company-specific currency rules are yet another story here.

JAR-OPS recency requirements are stated in 3.970, it also waives the night circuits if you have an instrument rating.

JAR–FCL 2.026 is explicitly not applicable for JAR OPS 3 operations, as the title says: "Recent experience for pilots not operating in accordance with JAR-OPS 3"

JAR-FCL 1.026 requires only one night landing for fixed wing, so this is indeed a difference.

[jymil]

Since JAR FCL 2 has been replaced recently by EASA, the new rules from Part FCL.060 b should apply.

This basically reconciles the rules for fixed wing and helicopters:
- 3 takeoffs, approaches and landings within 90 days on same type
- for Night VFR, only one takeoff, approach and landing on same type is needed (waived if you have an instrument rating)

Note that you cannot undercut a total of 3 landings for Night VFR, since you need them to be a pax-carrying PIC under any lighting conditions. But 2 of them can be in Day VFR.

So basically the F/W rules are now valid for helos as well and the "circuit" definition from JAR FCL has been dropped (it didn't make sense anyway).

[nellycopter]

So as it turns out with the new rules, i got a bit of practice in then ?

[Pofman]

For commercial air transportation JAR-OPS 3 is still the relevant document until EASA has time and resources to make it's own. JAR-OPS 3.970 applies as jymil says. The reason circuits are included was that some pilots just lifted to the hover then landed and repeated it three times, loaded the passengers and went off on their flight. At least with three circuits you will have about 15 minutes actual night recency.

[jymil]

Agree on the loophole about takeoff and landing. However, the JAR FCL wording sounded like you have to do a circuit, so it could be interpreted a takeoff from A and landing at B without doing a circuit wouldnt count for recency, which is of course B*S*. I almost always fly straight-in and out of my controlled home base airport without doing circuits (that's what is most efficient for everybody anyway).

EASA FCL defines it better in my opinion: takeoff, approach, and landing does cover both circuits and flights without doing a standard circuit, as well as ruling out mere pick-ups and set-downs from a hover for helicopters.

[malabo]

Curious why if you have an instrument rating you do not need night currency in Europe? I can't figure out what a straight in landing on a IFR runway in the daytime is in any way related to operating a helicopter VFR at night.

Would you let a pilot take your helicopter for a night VFR flight if all he had done was a couple of instrument approaches in daytime recently? Does any IFR helicopter operator in Europe not bother with night currency on the basis of (day) IFR currency?

[jymil]

Night VFR is comparable to IMC conditions, you dont see much. If you have an IR, you can always switch to flying by instruments if you lose reference. If you have no IR and lose reference, then you're likely to kill yourself.

That aside, it probably still make sense to do some night flights every once in a while even with IR, at least the cockpit management is definitely a different story at night.

[FERetd]

Jymil Quote:- "Night VFR is comparable to IMC conditions, you dont see much."

Agreed, as far as an approach is concerned. The landing is quite a different matter.

malabo Quote:-"Curious why if you have an instrument rating you do not need night currency in Europe? I can't figure out what a straight in landing on a IFR runway in the daytime is in any way related to operating a helicopter VFR at night."

Precisely.

EASA haven't grasped this yet, thankfully others have.

EASA = European Aviation SAFETY Agency?????

[John Eacott]

Night VFR is comparable to IMC conditions, you dont see much. If you have an IR, you can always switch to flying by instruments if you lose reference. If you have no IR and lose reference, then you're likely to kill yourself.

That aside, it probably still make sense to do some night flights every once in a while even with IR, at least the cockpit management is definitely a different story at night.

I'd hasten to say....what a lot of cobblers!

NVFR requires visual conditions plus a landing at night with limited peripheral and spacial references. IFR requires an IMC approach followed by a daytime normal landing: no different to any other day landing apart from the approach.

To think that I had evil thoughts about some of our Australian legislation :hmm:

[jymil]

The final portion of an IFR flight is the same as VFR at night (unless we're talking about CAT3 Autoland). Normally, you land at an airport at night and everything is well-lit there, including an approach lighting system. Usually not a problem for a VFR day pilot.

Off-airport landings are of course a different business, however they are usually prohibited anyway (only allowed for night training here). Some other european countries do not allow Night VFR at all.

[John Eacott]

JAR rules are described in FCL 2.026a and c
- 3 circuits including takeoff and landing on same type at night
- if you have an IR(H), then 3 circuits at daylight are sufficient

The final portion of an IFR flight is the same as VFR at night (unless we're talking about CAT3 Autoland). Normally, you land at an airport at night and everything is well-lit there, including an approach lighting system. Usually not a problem for a VFR day pilot.

I'd suggest that to imply a day landing currency is all you need to operate at night because you have an IR is delusional. I'll show you a dozen airfields within a cooee of me with instrument approaches that have no approach lighting and only minimal airfield lighting. Certainly nothing that even approaches the visual cues that are normal in a day landing, nor enough to give taxiing and hovering cues to take you to your landing point. Primary reference is from the landing lights: not something easily practised during daylight landings ;)

Then what are you going to do when you do some real night flying which doesn't include an instrument approach and lands away from an airfield, eg a minimally lit helipad? :hmm:

[jymil]

Well, looks like we're getting into a "what makes sense" vs "what is legal" discussion here.
Don't forget that you can fly at night as PIC yourself and land at an unlit heliport even if you haven't flown at night in the past 5 years.

That might be delusional, but perfectly legal.

[FERetd]

jymil Quote:- "Well, looks like we're getting into a "what makes sense" vs "what is legal" discussion here."

So, jymil, are you of the sensible persuassion or are you happy to meet the bare minimum legal requirement?

Being "sensible" should not cost the operator any more money - the cost gets passed on to the client.

Flying into the ground at night might be perfectly legal but not too sensible.

One day the bafoons at EASA might realise this. Thankfully, there are other Organisations and Operators which already do.

[Ready2Fly]

I fail to understand how an IR helps if your helicopter is not IFR equipped....? :rolleyes:

[jymil]

I am of the pragmatic sort .. The JAA rule demanding flights on the same type never made sense to me .. Why shouldnt 3 landings in an R22 count for a pax flight with an R44 ? This is however now lifted by EASA for non-complex helicopters.

I personally think flying for half an hour and one landing should suffice to fresh up, doing 3 circuits at night at my home base is extremely difficult because circuits at night are prohibited due to noise abatement.

As for the IR: I can partly see where they are coming from, but it probably still makes sense to fly at night every once in a while. At least that is what I'd do for myself.