Winching in the UK

[jayteeto]

Just a quick question to those of you in 'the know'.
If a small helicopter outfit (one aircraft) were to offer a HEMS service that included a winching capability, what rules would affect the winching? I thought that in the case of a single power unit failure, the helicopter must be capable of recovering the winchman?????
If not, what is the score using a single engined ac?

[ShyTorque]

You'll need a specific permission from you-know-who.

I would be surprised if winching from a single would be allowed.

[hillberg]

:=Winching is when you pull along the ground,:D Hoist is vertical , PT 133 D in the states:rolleyes:

[ShyTorque]

The title says "In the UK".

In the UK we have winches on helicopters. We have winch operators and winchmen, too. They go up and down.

[Jet Ranger]

JAR OPS 3

JR

[[email protected]]

From JAR OPS 3 Annex 1 to 3.005(H)
(d) Operating requirements
(1) The Helicopter. During HHO, the
helicopter must be capable of sustaining a
critical power unit failure with the remaining
engine(s) at the appropriate power setting,
without hazard to the suspended
person(s)/cargo, third parties, or property.
(Except for HEMS HHO at a HEMS operating
site where the requirement need not be
applied.)
This would seem to be sensible except for the get-out clause - implying that that a single would be OK at a 'HEMS operating site'

[homonculus]

Why would a HEMS unit want to winch? First they want to fly at night now they want to winch. Whatever next for the ambulance service?

[[email protected]]

Don't start that one again:)

[hillberg]

:rolleyes:I'm sure B,F Goodrich/Lucas would be happy to outfit your helicopter with a "hoist" doubt they would send you a winch for lifting people.:= The manufacture is who calls the shots,:*

[Cabe LeCutter]

"Winching is when you pull along the ground, "

Try doing SAR in a singled engined helicopter and you may just end up doing that:eek::eek:, if you are lucky:{:{:ooh:

Heads down, look out for the flack.

[Gordy]

Clearly Hillberg meant to say "wire stringing", I doubt your CAA would allow such a thing...

fAT0ECLGaVE

[misterbonkers]

Well they do!

[OvertHawk]

people have been wire stringing very successfully in the UK for decades Gordy! Don't let that stop you bashing the CAA though! ;-)

[jayteeto]

Interesting, I have been saying it cant be done, but jar says it can be at a hems site! Watch this space then.........

[Bertie Thruster]

UK wording: A 'hoist' is used to 'winch'. (and it goes 'in' and 'out')


Been allowed in principle to winch at HEMS sites for years, with a twin, same as we've been allowed to accept the potential of crashing while manoevering at a HEMS site, if an engine fails (as long as you wear a helmet!)

It's just you need 'a little bit of practice' to swing the wire tensioner and its virtually impossible to get the required decent SSE hover for training, in any light twin.

[ShyTorque]

Hi Bertie, next time you speak to your old mates at Search and Rescue Standards, don't forget to tell them that hillberg wants the British military to change all their SOPs to remove the word "winching".

Might take some time for it to catch on though. It's been going on for so long now, we're just relative newcomers. My intro to SAR helicopters (in 1978) was as a full-time winch weight, over the sea, in a single engined Whirlwind HAR 10, being winched up and down, all day long. My outro was some twenty years later, winching people up and down, over the sea, in a twin.

[OvertHawk]

Is someone from the other side of the Atlantic really trying to argue the finer points of the use of The English Language with us???:E

[ShyTorque]

Yes, there is a whole new world east of the Atlantic. ;)

[dieseldo]

Bravery of the highest order

Where's that tube of purple hearts (childrens sweets in England for the uninitiated).

[misterbonkers]

Also a shame that, having successfully winched your injured person into you single engine helicopter, you can't then land at most hospital landing pads as you don't meet the performance criteria...

[Cornish Jack]

Shy Torque - exactly ... I've just realised how terribly, terribly dangerous and life threatening those years in the Whirly were!!!:E I suppose it just goes to show how naive and non-H&S sensitive we were.
Brings to mind a tale from one of my mates - operating out of Manston. Just finished 'wets' and sitting in the door in the 'monkey strap'. Nav/W.Op (not quite the sharpest tool in the box) climbed up into the LH seat and used the ICO as a help handle (Piston Whirly) - result, instant noise reduction and (from 40') ditching :eek:
Nav just kept moving and exited deploying rubber boat, as did driver. Mate just managed to undo belt before being washed to back of cabin as machine turned turtle. It remained floating and there was a pocket of trapped air in the rear of the cabin which allowed mate to keep head above water and view, through a small portion of window, the creator of this havoc paddling around in his boat and shouting "Come out of there, you silly B****r"!!!:ugh: Obviously, he did just that and reported that there was a 'quite lively' subsequent 'conversation' between himself and the Nav!!

[Turkeyslapper]

(d) Operating requirements
(1) The Helicopter. During HHO, the
helicopter must be capable of sustaining a
critical power unit failure with the remaining
engine(s) at the appropriate power setting,
without hazard to the suspended
person(s)/cargo, third parties, or property.
(Except for HEMS HHO at a HEMS operating
site where the requirement need not be
applied.)


What about a critical transmission unit failure, or a critical tail rotor (or drive shaft failure) or.....maybe we should stay in bed...much safer that way :E

Just a question, are Eurpoean Regs particularly stringent or is the FAA similiar with respect to this sort of thing? And just a question without opening a can of worms, what SE performance does a Seaking have during a winch or being a state registered aircraft does the above "regulation" not apply?? I understand that where possible you want to allow options to fly away, land etc etc but what about those awkard spots were options maybe limited...how does a Seaking go in those situations where not to expose your personnel on the wire to "undue hazards"?

Cheers

Just saw this...should have read properly (Except for HEMS HHO at a HEMS operating
site where the requirement need not be
applied.)

I guess that answers my question?

[[email protected]]

TS - whilst risk-mitigation is always undertaken, there remain some situations where there is no single engine flyaway option and a poor area to crash into/onto. We try to minimise exposure to 'certain fiery death' when winching but sometimes it is inevitable (if the casualty is to be saved).

Over the water it is generally straightforward and you always have the option to ditch but overland, narrow gorges and cliffs with tricky winds can make getting a winching solution and a flyaway mutually exclusive.

Inland, even over water can be dodgy - Gloucester floods for example, when operating heavily committed (ditching the only option) over fast moving water which is running between hazards (buildings, pylons etc).

As I understand it, the UK SAR contract will allow the same scenarios to be faced because normal public transport performance criteria need not be met until the rescue is completed.

[onevan]

‘HEMS operating site’ means a site selected by the commander during a HEMS flight for helicopter hoist operations, landing and take-off. (Annexe 1 definitions - to the draft Commission Regulation
on ‘Air Operations - OPS’.

The grey area is going to be when does the CAA consider the site/ operation to have crossed from HEMS into SAR and therefore need to comply with CAP 999 and have a state AOC to be carrying out the operation.

Is the plan to increase the crew for winchop and winchman or hope the ambulance crews can load the casualty onto a winch?

[Gordy]

people have been wire stringing very successfully in the UK for decades Gordy! Don't let that stop you bashing the CAA though! ;-)

Learn something everyday. I really have no need to bash the CAA---y'all do a pretty good job of that yourselves.