View Full Version : QLINK to get a new Manager Standards and Development (CAR 217 leadership)

20th Oct 2012, 03:06
Qlink have announced a new appointment to the position of Manager Standads and Development (CAR 217 leadership).

Apparently a Senior Checkie on the A330 at JetStar.

Make of it what you will, interesting times. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

20th Oct 2012, 04:17
Bombardier CSeries (http://cseries.com/en/)

that is your answer! 2015 induction for Qlink!:ok::D

Capn Bloggs
20th Oct 2012, 04:53
I'm ready! Just get rid of those joysticks and put in a real prong. ;)

20th Oct 2012, 07:07
Not the C-series talk again....

20th Oct 2012, 07:11
any thoughts on routes or bases?

armchair quarterback
20th Oct 2012, 07:15
just give it to them!! might stop this incessant boring drivel

20th Oct 2012, 07:18
All bases will receive a model of a C Series

Crew will be allowed once a month to sign out the model and run around the crewroom with it making brrrrrrrrm noises.

This will be assessed for enthusiasm and authenticity of brrrmmm noises

Ollie Onion
20th Oct 2012, 07:18
Oh please could you take ALL the senior Jetstar Managers and Checkies........ pretty please :E

Soup Nazi
20th Oct 2012, 09:36
They'll get em, not sure what type, but Qlink is set for big things down the track.


20th Oct 2012, 09:40
Not again....:ugh::ugh:

NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING has been ordered, so all of those who are perpetuating delusions of grandeur - back in your boxes. The previous CAR217 manager was ex-Ansett and Gulf Air with substantial Airbus and Boeing experience, so how does this new guy make a stand out difference?

Oh to be a pilot and to be so friggen naive...

Rant over

Fuel-Off :ok:

20th Oct 2012, 10:50
I've heard a rumour that a big announcement will be in Nov.

Hugh Jarse
20th Oct 2012, 11:01
Eastern and Sunstate have been getting jets for the last 20 years. :ugh:

Well, now that Sooty's gone to finish off of mainline, and the snake's gone west, you might just be in with a chance :}

Good luck, boys and girls :E

20th Oct 2012, 12:36
Well you wanted to be jet pilots, now careful what you wish for...rumour has it jet or not you'll be doing a lot more flying and spending a lot more time on the road. Kiss the regional lifestyle goodbye :(

20th Oct 2012, 12:58
If it's anything like our place, that ship sailed long ago! :sad:

20th Oct 2012, 14:46
Huh what carrot is this you talk about? :D

Dangly Bits
20th Oct 2012, 15:04
Was it Kendall's that operated the CRJ's? Brain fade!

20th Oct 2012, 22:25
What's the single aisle jet captain rate in the EBA again lads? What a disgrace.

A. Le Rhone
21st Oct 2012, 01:10

The Manager of Standards and Development is being sourced from where?

Did that really say Jetstar?

if the imaginary jets have a TOGA detent maybe he can show them how to use it for a missed-approach?

21st Oct 2012, 01:36
A Le Rhone sounds like you've got a good story there?...

21st Oct 2012, 01:48
Hey Dragun, belt up or that verbal diarrhea you're dishing out will get things dirty... :=

Few points that need to be corrected after that sweeping statement you bleated from your high horse;

- like I keep on saying, NOTHING has been ordered
- The regional jet scales on each EBA are introductory rates (which has been discussed over and over again...) Same left handed remarks were thrown at Virgin Pilots when they started in 2000. Now they're the company every man and his dog want in on.
- Just researched the EBA of another jet operator - Cobham. Now I know that the lads and ladettes there are going through their (albeilt painful) negotiations but as I see it with the NJE (not the NJS) agreement that:
First Year FO - $84667
Skipper - $153940
And if you want to look at the NJS agreement ballpark -early 70k for FO (and yes, well aware that the company has offered to match the NJE agreement, well done boys and girls :ok:)

Just looked at the Sunstate EBA - Eastern is very much the same because would you believe it, two pilots groups actually agreed not to undercut eachother! :D In FY2014 if the type were to be introduced
FO - $94190
Skipper - $144908

So Dragun, I think you'll find that the QLink rate is on par with the market. Disgrace? It is in the States when their drivers are on food stamps. :sad:

Over to you...

Fuel-Off :ok:

21st Oct 2012, 05:03
A few at the top of the tree have found themselves in Toronto at Bombardier this week! hmm.

AGM is when?

Can-Adl sectors, Syd to Gladstone....hmm. Get ready!

Although this talk may have happened for the last 20 years, actions speak louder than words and action is occuring here!

I would be pissed if I just left for Jetstar!:cool:

Hugh Jarse
21st Oct 2012, 07:40
Ask Bobby Dawe about pissing on tyres (well, checking unexplained fluid leaks).

21st Oct 2012, 08:14
how reliable are you 32mp?? are you part of management?

21st Oct 2012, 09:10
are you part of management? This would give an excellent indication of the reliability of this rumour :suspect::ooh:

I would be pissed if I just left for Jetstar I'm sure they'll get over it.

21st Oct 2012, 09:31
Just looked at the Sunstate EBA - Eastern is very much the same because would you believe it, two pilots groups actually agreed not to undercut eachother! In FY2014 if the type were to be introduced
FO - $94190
Skipper - $144908

What do you mean Fuel off? I just had a look at the two, and Eastern's EBA stops at 2013 and if you add on 3% from 2013 for the 2014 figure, you get $158346. That's a good $13,438 difference!

21st Oct 2012, 11:08
Toronto! That's where the Dashes are made, jets are from Montreal.

Or have things changed.;)

21st Oct 2012, 11:11

I'm with you mate. The old "jet" chestnut has been doing the rounds since I care to remember. We, at SAA of course did have jets, but the catch phrase at EAA has been going around since Adam was a boy.

The LINK of course does have a fleet of jets now; 13 of them actually. And the word on the street is that at least 5 more are required for the east coast. I don't need to remind folks here that the agreement between QF and NC was only renewed last year for another 6 years with a 2 year extension on the clause. That would be 2019 folks. I would not want to be holding my breath at EAA/SSA for the figment of the imagination of many.

I have been on the record before for saying that any red tail expansion by a wholly owned subsidiary of QF would be via the expansion of Network, and I still stand by that statement. Time will tell I guess, but as previously stated, don't hold your breath 32 MP.

And just food for thought. If QF are as extremely happy with NC as they state they are, well wouldn't it make more cents(sic) for QF(read cheaper) to keep that venture going. After all, it then becomes NC's problem(expense) re crewing/engineering/admin etc and QF get the service without having the extra capitol outlay and personnel on the books.

I am quite sure that if QF could contract out every part of their labour force to an external labour supplier, they would!

21st Oct 2012, 11:23

That being the case why not place the new Chief Pilot (of the last couple of months) and this new checkie that is coming straight into national Jet or Cobham, or whatever they are called now.

Also why spend all the money on a massive new management structure for QLink, they would be best sending the people and structure to the above mentioned.:hmm:

21st Oct 2012, 11:50
That being the case why not place the new Chief Pilot (of the last couple of months) and this new checkie that is coming straight into national Jet or Cobham, or whatever they are called now.

Maybe because:
1 Cobham already has a CAR 217 C&T organization in place;
2 QF does not own Cobham and cannot simply "place" staff there.

21st Oct 2012, 12:07
So why then, when Qantas is trying to save money throughout the company are they spending an absolute fortune on these new people and a massive new management structure, if everything is going to go to Cobham.

Some times you have to take the blinkers off and have a look outside the box.:ok:

21st Oct 2012, 12:12
I now have three points:

1. I am not on a high horse, I was there when the EBA with those rates was introduced. I voted on it. I don't need any education.

2. There weren't any points that need to be corrected. In case you hadn't noticed, I didn't make any points for you to correct.

3. If you want to compare lower salaries, have a look at the 737 rate for Express Freighters FOs. Then compare that to the high end at Qantas and Virgin. There is a very wide spread and just picking one random company out of hat doesn't support your view on what the "industry rate" is.

Spare me.

21st Oct 2012, 13:27

I would assume that this "management structure" that you are talking about would not be an "absolute fortune" as you state.

It is quite possibly the case that these individuals that have been appointed are on the same salary(or a tad more; not a fortune more) than their predecessors. The funny thing about these positions is that people do them for SFA because it empowers them and makes them feel important amongst the rank and file; kind of a power trip if you will.

So how many actual positions have been created as opposed to replacements? Obviously the incumbents were way out of their league. Some here have referred to it as "The Bankstown Aeroclub", and having worked there for the best part of a decade, tend to agree with the assumption. Something had to give.

All I say is this. The new management structure was needed. People see this as an opportunity to mark their own turf; become a big fish in a small pond as opposed to the small fish in a bigger pond. But knowing the Company well enough to comment, I can guarantee you that these folk are not getting paid a fortune. After all we are talking about QLINK are we not?

21st Oct 2012, 22:51
32 and others

I hate to dissapoint you but they are in Toronto for a largish order for more 400's. 200's to go and phase out of 300's.

The 400's are still too economical to put jets on routes (inc. SYD-GLA).

All jet equipment will go to Cobham and Network. C series may be purchased but not till 2017 with 717's comming of lease in 2018. By the way QLink just (last year) renewed the Cobham contract to 2018.

22nd Oct 2012, 00:54
To all the clowns out there that suggest flying a q400 is easy then think again. I've been lucky enough to have flown a jet prior to a q400 and let me tell you, a jet is much easier. So in essence if you can fly a q400 then you'll be very competent at flying a jet.

22nd Oct 2012, 03:00

I don't think anybody is suggesting what you're alluding too!

Like you, I too have flown both and each has its vices. To suggest that one is more difficult than the other is quite fallacious. Automation can make the task easier, but the understanding of what the automation is doing is the double edge sword.

The Dash 8 is a fantastic and very flexible machine. Great payload and economics, but very expensive to purchase compared to its direct competitors.

However, your assumption that X is a lot harder to operate than Y is wrong. It's the quality of the training that counts.

22nd Oct 2012, 03:29
Disagree normas,

Dutch said to leave the jet flying to the guys that know how to fly jets. So I assume that we aren't good enough....

Also I find the 400 a mongrel. Can't intercept a loc. Put flap 35 and it balloons like crazy (even if it has autotrim), and a go around with oei and flap 35 nearly rolls you on it's back (not that I'd ever try that with flap 35), oh and of course it's crazy vne at low level.

A very challenging aircraft as a whole.

I do also agree that training is instrumental.

22nd Oct 2012, 04:23
Look at these articles. I know they are somewhat dated.

Be patient! Loose lips sink ships and whilst everyone else can see the overhaul and change of management at Qlink, the jets are on the way! We will know by the end of this year what is going on.

On the note of flying Q400s vs jets. Q400s much more complicated aircraft! (not to start a tire pissing contest!).

Qantaslink regional jet surge adds 717s to Queensland | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/01/31/qantaslink-expansion-raises-interesting-questions-about-the-future-of-regional-fleets/)

Bombardier CSeries on radar for QantasLink upgrade

by: Steve Creedy
From:The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/)
July 30, 201012:00AM

QANTAS has its eye on Bombardier's new CSeries jet as a potential replacement for Boeing 717s flying for QantasLink.

While the airline is under no immediate pressure to replace the now discontinued 717s, acquired during its takeover of Impulse Airlines almost a decade ago, it is already canvassing potential replacements.
Bombardier, which currently has 90 orders and 90 options for the mid-sized single-aisle plane, is planning models CS100 (a 110- to 130-seater) and CS300 (a 130- to 145-seater).
The CSeries comes with new high-efficiency engines from Pratt & Whitney and is expected to enter service in 2013. The Canadian manufacturer is predicting the new plane will boost fuel efficiency and cut costs by 15 to 20 per cent , improvements that have prompted Boeing and Airbus to look at putting more efficient engines on their 737 and A320 workhorses.
The QantasLink fleet is already predominantly Bombardier and adding the CSeries would make sense, bringing it under one manufacturer.
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce confirmed this week that the CSeries was a contender as a replacement for the 717s.
However, he said the airline would also look at similar sized new jets from other manufacturers. "We're keeping our options open," he said.
"We think the CSeries looks like a great aircraft. It goes up into the 160-seat range, it's got new engine technology and the seat costs on it are very attractive.
"As you know, Lufthansa have gone into it but we wouldn't rule out keeping an eye on Mitsubishi and what they're doing, and what Embraer are doing."
Aviation executives were expecting Airbus to announce at the recent Farnborough International Air Show it would re-engine the A320 but it stuck with its timetable of making a decision by the end of the year.
Boeing has also yet to announce a decision on whether it will re-engine or take the plunge on a new narrow-body aircraft.
The US manufacturer's chief executive, Jim McNerney, told reporters this week that customers were more interested in a 737 replacement than in a re-engined plane, although some supported this option.
"The decision framework for us, and we'll work through it for the balance of the year, is when does a new airplane come together in terms of the technology readiness and customer willingness to pay for one," Mr McNerney said. "We think that's the first question that has to be answered.
"If that is sometime this decade, then the case for re-engining weakens dramatically . . . if you did re-engine, you would be doing two major developments in the course of four or five years, which makes no sense. If, on the other hand, the new plane comes together much, much later . . . the case for re-engining strengthens."

22nd Oct 2012, 05:47
32, REALLY, a piece dated 30 JULY 2010?????????

The board has approved nothing as alluded to above. This will need to be done prior to any signings.

The turbo prop division cant even crew what its got at the moment. They are not going to say to COBHAM in 2018 sorry old chaps but no work for you anymore. Ive also heard 5 more 717's for the East Coast to come 2013.

Sorry but you need to be realistic.

22nd Oct 2012, 06:46
yeah, I know I said that The Australian article is dated. The plane talking one is more recent.

I couldn't care less coming up with anything else to prove or disprove anything. Believe what you will! At the end of the day, it's only a job!

22nd Oct 2012, 13:46
I guess flying the space shuttle is only a job too! ;)

Sue Ridgepipe
22nd Oct 2012, 16:12
You guys are obviously not aware that turbo prop pilots can't fly jets. Just check the court records, it's a proven fact!

22nd Oct 2012, 23:59
Does jet-like count?

23rd Oct 2012, 05:08
Any body with experience on fast modern turbo-props is well placed to move to a jet. Some aspects are easier, some harder. Refer to posts #37 & #38, it's the standard of trainning & attitude of the candidate that counts.

If you want to fly a jet, join a company thats already operating them!

23rd Oct 2012, 08:17
No matter what it will always be jet-like speed, piston like pay :ok:

Hugh Jarse
23rd Oct 2012, 09:59
That's MY catchphrase, startingout. Get your own :}

The reality is that Cobham is the jet operator for QLink;
Their contract has been renewed for a significant time into the future (including the timeframe in which the C-Series may be introduced); (Bloggs won't like the side-stick because it's like a bow-thruster on a boat).
Any new type is a REPLACEMENT for the 717 (Cobham);
The jet clause in your EBA is purely an effort to force Cobham to sharpen their pencils at contract negotiation time. QLink management NEVER intended EAA or SA to operate jets. God, they made the Q400 a space shuttle - imagine what their first jet would do to you guys.

Normasars: Don't bang your head against the wall mate. All you'll do is hurt yer head (as I do) :}:}

It's a big world out there. Like R.Cruizo wrote: If you want to fly a jet - join a company that operates them :E

23rd Oct 2012, 11:15
"You guys are obviously not aware that turbo prop pilots can't fly jets. Just check the court records, it's a proven fact!"

That's funny cause I'm pretty sure a significant number of pilots at Virgin and Cathay Pacific are ex Qantaslink...

23rd Oct 2012, 12:45
Turboprop guys are just the ones they want...

Everybody knows that Jet pilots feature almost exclusively in Jet hull-loss accidents. You won't find many turboprop guys crashing jets into the ground!

Turboprop pilots, by CRM logic, have an excellent safety record when it comes to this old topic.

I should know, I did this course about safety and there were some very persuasive pie charts.

24th Oct 2012, 00:55

Sue was very tongue in cheek. He, like many of us have first hand knowledge on the not so subtle lack of progression from the QF Regionals to Mainline. I shared the same flight deck with him for a few years; top guy and operator.

The term sarcasm springs to mind.:ok:

24th Oct 2012, 07:12
Skysook, you must be young if you don't know of the court case referred to. Tongue firmly in cheek with that line.

Soup Nazi
24th Oct 2012, 22:18
Relax chaps
The contract with Cobham to run the 717s till 2018 is just that, a contract to run the 717s till 2018. When that arrangement was put in place Qlink was structurally not in a position to bring in jets. At the moment they could do it quite easily by utilising expertise from elsewhere in the QF group and from targeted recruiting, which if they are to put jets in in 2016 would already be happening.

Every operator had to start somewhere and no group is better resourced than QF. One thing is for sure, you will never see the J* fleet repainted white with the rat on the tail. Perhaps they'll replacebthe 717s for Cobham and use Qlink on domestic routes with something bigger???


24th Oct 2012, 23:13
Did SN say free crack giveaway?

14th Nov 2012, 11:51

Here it is boys!! This is the future, it will go well with the 'Great Wall' utes in the car park. Start practising putonghua for the manuals though, because the english translation won't make sense!

Here's the new Chief pilot, top bloke. Apparently loves KTV, rice wine and chicken feet!

14th Nov 2012, 14:08
My bet is Airbus A31x. 'Link' to be removed from livery, eventually start taking over QF 737 routes.

14th Nov 2012, 23:10
Sadly, the only jets qlink people will get to fly will be the ones at virgin and tiger. There are a lot of experienced qantas pilots who will be without a job over the coming years and it only makes sense to keep that experience in house (albeit on a much lower wicket). All we can hope is that where ever the jets go, the pilot council has the balls to not get starry eyed and sell out.
Big brother usually gets first pick of the new toys anyway :p

15th Nov 2012, 00:25
There are a lot of experienced qantas pilots who will be without a job over the coming years and it only makes sense to keep that experience in house

Tell that to the boys and girls who have left QF for EK, taking all that 'in house' experience you mention.

Tell that to the HUNDREDS of engineers been shown the door because the company values experience.

Big brother usually gets first pick of the new toys anyway
Didn't hear one peep from mainline saying 'we want the Q400s' when they first arrived in '06. Now that we near 30 Q400 airframes (with more on the way) I'm hearing whispers from some senior mainline FOs they want an MoU like they have with JQ, (and that's keeping up the morale of the JQ drivers! :{) in order to get a command because we all know what the command potential is like at QF at the moment...:bored:

Mainline's sense of entitlement over the entire group is sickening. If you want to join QLink, happy to welcome you - at the bottom of the seniority like everyone else.

Fuel-Off :ok:

15th Nov 2012, 01:43
hearing whispers from some senior mainline FOs equates to Mainline's sense of entitlement over the entire group is a long bow to draw.

There is not a sense of entitlement, there is a sense of disappointment that transfer of business is being used to erode conditions for all employees.

The desire of some to protect their own small patch of turf is an attitude that will be instrumental in reducing working conditions for all pilots in this country.

15th Nov 2012, 02:48
I'm hearing whispers from some senior mainline FOs they want an MoU like they have with JQ, (and that's keeping up the morale of the JQ drivers! ) in order to get a command because we all know what the command potential is like at QF at the moment...

'Senior mainline F/Os' are senior enough to have a command given that 'senior mainline F/Os' are mostly senior to me. Given they've not bid for a 737 or 767 command (probably due to the pay cut or lifestyle drop) I can't see them bidding for a Q400 command. Massive pay drop and lifestyle change.

Junior mainline F/Os perhaps but they'd still be taking a decent pay cut to be a Q400 Captain.

With that in mind, I call 'bullshit'. Not saying that you haven't heard the rumour, just saying that whoever started it hasn't spoken to a 'senior mainline F/O' or has a very distorted view of the world. Should also point out that PPRUNE is the first I've heard of it- not that me not hearing it doesn't make it true either but I would have heard murmurings of this one were there a shred of evidence to it.

If you want to join QLink, happy to welcome you - at the bottom of the seniority like everyone else.

If you were familiar with AIPAs statements relating to seniority, you'd already know that this is precisely what they've proposed previously. Equally, it'd apply to everyone. :ugh:

So perhaps, just perhaps, this statement...

Mainline's sense of entitlement over the entire group is sickening.

.... is complete and utter BS. :rolleyes:

15th Nov 2012, 03:15
A SO in mainline would be taking a pay cut to be a captain in Qantaslink!!

15th Nov 2012, 05:03
and that's where the stupidity of pay winds us all up! Especially when an SO gets business class of staff travel these days. For doing what? What is your responsibility again....

Half you SO's have probably forgotten how to land an aircraft, so you can stay where you are, logging you useless P3 time!

If it is all about the money, then this industry as a whole is certainly the wrong one to pick these days!

15th Nov 2012, 06:09
This rumour about jets for Qantaslink always seems to come up during the Qantas short haul EBA (or EA or whatever they call it this week) time. And guess what? They have just started negotiations for it. Its Qantas playing its usual tricks of one pilot body against another. It happens every time. I understand the J* EBA is up for renewal soon too. Qantaslink with narrow body jets and Airbus aircraft puts pressure on both pilot bodies during negotiations. The company just feeds the fire with rumours.

And gotta agree with Keg, there is no "sense of entitlement" in mainline, its just frustration at seeing a once proud company reduced to a shadow of its former self.....but thats another topic.

15th Nov 2012, 06:33
As long as Q400's keep being ordered that is all EAA and SSA will fly! As long as Cobham maintain a good deal flying the B717 they will remain the jets for QLink!

15th Nov 2012, 08:09
Keg, Admittedly it was fifth or twenty-fifth hand information but as you can understand, I can only react to the information that was given to me.

Sickening is a tad left field, yes. However, there is a degree of precedent set with the JQ MoU (that is a completely different topic all together and being discussed to death) and we don't want that here at either SSA or EAA.

I'm not wanting to turn this thread into another debate about T&Cs.

Back to the CAR217 management, a change is good as anything, especially when it's a departure from the dogmatic shite that was being dished out by our previous leader, EB. :yuk:

The COO and CP have returned from a stint in Canada and the US, firstly to discuss some quality assurance issues with the Q400s. Secondly to observe other Q400 operators, including Bombardier themselves (they ferry staff factory to factory with their own Q4) and Horizon. Mostly to turn the operation around from the previous management scheme which was quite frankly, a complete abortion (references to the space shuttle are not far off.)

Going back in my box...
Fuel-Off :ok:

15th Nov 2012, 09:25
Fuel Off, no problem. I always suspected it was third hand. Take it from me, no QF pilot I've spoken to is wanting to take a promotion off a QLink driver.

However, there is a degree of precedent set with the JQ MoU...

Do you know how the MoU works? If it started tomorrow, every QF number would be junior to every current QLink driver. I'd be 900+ numbers junior to the most junior QLink F/O currently employed. Of course, every person who joined QLink the day after tomorrow is going to be junior to me but I reckon they're pretty safe from me bidding for a command on the Q400 in a few years time.

Of course, what should have happened years ago was a group list. That way we wouldn't be having these sorts of discussions. People like Hugh Jarse would have gotten a seniority number for mainline and wouldn't have had to go to the opposition to see his career advance. If we bring it in now we still face the prospects of years of 'integration' and of course QF management are doing their best to sow FUD amongst the disparate pilot groups- which is why you're hearing 32nd hand nonsense about QF drivers wanting to take over Qlink.

15th Nov 2012, 11:02
Ghandi was once asked what he thought of Western democracy. He replied 'I think it would be a great idea!'. Whilst the concept of group integration would be any pilot's wet dream, it's a flight of fancy.

This was proven when both EAA and SSA groups agreed to terms for integration. It was stupid to have drivers based in CNS wanting to transfer to MEL and having to resign from SSA then go to MEL on the bottom of the EAA seniority where you are effectively working for the same company!

Company snuffed it citing 'HR issues'. Divide and conquer is the management mantra...and it's here to stay.

Whilst a bit off topic - but more or less pertinent to the general theme. Clearly with the prospect of integration, there's going to be pain and hurt for some. Are we our own worst enemies with the concept of the seniority list here in Australia? Back in the days of old, you could start with an airline on an F27 for example, then a 737, so on and so on and still retain a number within the same company. Nowadays we have to resign from one company, then move on to another and start the whole process again. What went wrong? How can we resolve this so that the next generation of budding young aviators don't have to bicker at eachother...much like we are now! :confused:

Not trying to hijack the thread mods, just asking a general question...be gentle :8

Fuel-Off :ok:

15th Nov 2012, 11:16
which is why you're hearing 32nd hand nonsense about QF drivers wanting to take over Qlink.

Not while there are only Q400's anyway. It'll be interesting to see how attitudes change when new equipment arrives. Hopefully Qantas will still around then for this debate to reignite!

15th Nov 2012, 11:24
Haven't you guys heard, AIPA in their infinite wisdom were working on a little chest nut. GROUP SENIORITY IN FWA!!!

Cut and paste from AIPA Workplace Determination (Jan 2012)

40.2 Leave without pay to take up a position with a member of the Qantas Group

In addition to clause 40.1, and without limiting any other rights that pilots covered by his Determination who joined the Company prior to 31 November 2004,where a pilot takes leave without pay to take up a position with another member of the Qantas Group, the following will apply:

40.2.6 Unless otherwise agreed, where seniority is applicable in the Qantas Group Company a pilot at the time of application will assume a seniority in the Qantas Group Company consistent with his/her date of employment as a pilot within the Qantas Group.

Granted this was just their position for 9 months (Jan 2012 till Sept 2012) prior to the CWD and the GMS, thank god this BS has gone to arbitration.

Jets in Qlink?? Every one make way for the Q (main line) pilot! :ok:

15th Nov 2012, 12:23
You mention group seniority as if it is a bad thing. :ugh:

15th Nov 2012, 12:35
Group seniority in the QF group would be a wonderful thing for almost everyone. I refuse to believe that the divide and conquer mentality actually pays dividends when you consider the number of pilots who have left the QF group to advance their careers elsewhere.

The first step with QLink is for AFAP to get management back to the table and sort out common seniority for SSA and EAA. It is a ludicrous arrangement that is now inhibiting the airline's growth with commands in CNS going unfilled for months on end despite there being plenty of willing, qualified and suitably experienced EAA FOs. Who can blame them not wanting to give up all their seniority to get a command in CNS, and have no prospect of ever getting back to where they would like to be based because it's on the EAA network? :ugh:

16th Nov 2012, 01:57
Determination yet to be handed down Rob. Final submissions have been made though. Unlikely it'll be back before Christmas although it'd be nice if it was. The quote from ratherbefishintoday is from the AIPA submission to FWA. I didn't realise it was there.

The good news though is that if we'd had a group list years ago you'd be senior enough to be a 737 F/O.... or perhaps close to a JQ A320 command.

16th Nov 2012, 03:21
This subject needs a thread of its own.

16th Nov 2012, 03:28
I think so? There were a couple of versions post January 2012 so not sure if that was in their final submission or not. To be honest I haven't read it that closely. The general concept though was that group numbers would be allocated (not sure of the process) and be used if transferring between divisions (if that ever occurs). More likely they were to be used when redundancies were being planned on one side or the other. At least that's vaguely how I recall it operating.