CAA - be careful!

[Gin Slinger]

Okay, here’s the sober edit.

As you can tell if you know yer ICAO airport designator codes, I am an Oxfordshire resident, so naturally want to sit my ATPL exams in Oxford, thereby avoiding extra travel and subsidence expenses.

To this end, I sent in my application form to the CAA in early February. A couple of days later I received a receipt for the sum of £718, taken from my credit card. I thought fair enough, an outrageous yet unavoidable fee nonetheless, and naturally assumed in lieu of anything to the contrary, the application was accepted as submitted.

2 months later, still hadn’t received any other documentation, other than the receipt so sent an email asking where I should go and at what time, etc.

Got a reply back a day or two later basically implying they’d lost my booking and now my venue of choice was fully booked. Offered Gatwick. Not good, because brief investigation shown only accommodation available £40 per night Travel Lodge, meaning the cost of living in the vicinity of Gatwick for a week would be approximately £250 – enough dosh to take Ms. Gin Slinger away for sex’n’alcohol weekender in Brussels, but that’s maybe something more of a Jet Blast topic.

Proceeded to phone CAA up to ‘discuss’ the situation, but response was most unhelpful. A sort of 'not the least bit interested and why are you wasting my time by calling' tone to the conversation. Not even a hint of an apology for the extra expense entailed by what is basically shoddy administration on their part. When I suggested they waive part of their charge to the value of the extra costs incurred because of their incompetence, well, you can guess the answer…

Other gripes:

SFT: an ‘approved’ school. The scope of approvals seem to go into such depth as documenting the correct method of handing out paper clips, yet fails to properly investigate the school’s financial stability. Rather more fundamentally important than the magic marker to white board ratio.

Mate(1): made to sit exams in Prestwick, when all the rest of his class got into their favoured venue of Gatwick. Apparently, the exam hall at Gatwick had loads of spaces where he could have sat. Similar to my case, the CAA couldn’t give a monkeys about the expense and inconvenience their over-priced, mediocre bureaucracy causes.

Mate (2): FAA PPL holder, which was converted into a JAA one. All was fine until he tried to an IMC rating. No RT licence – apparently not required for issue of the PPL in this circumstance, but required to add the IMC rating to it. Mate(2) was instructed to go away and take the RT practical, despite having 160 hrs and passing the IMC skills test. Fee most certainly wasn’t returned.

To sum up, relating to flight training and licencing, the CAA seems to have a parasitic relationship with the student pilot fraternity. Perhaps we need a regulator to regulate the regulator, or better still, simply dump CAA/JAA and place ourselves under the FAA sphere of influence. Not thought this through so no doubt you’ll find it easy to pick holes in this.

[Polar_stereographic]

GS,

Are you posting the details today, or in the clear (but maybe painful) light of day, have you had a rethink and changed your now (hopefuly) sober mind?

PS

[The Greaser]

Gin Slinger

Sober or drunk, I tend to agree with your comments, they are grossly incompetent and the staff are disinterested.

[johnnypick]

I agree. I've had nothing but aggro and excuses when dealing with the 'c###s against aviation'. On the other hand the FAA have always been very helpful and don't charge like wounded Rhinos.

[A and C]

The CAA comes in for a lot of stick but I have found the level of service is quite diferent depending on the department the engineering department is normaly quite good and so was engineer licencing when it was run by the engineers.

How ever the part of the CAA that most of you deal with is flight crew licencing and they are the worst part of the CAA to deal with by a mile !.

So please if you have a gripe with the CAA aim it at the guilty party and not the CAA as a whole.

[jonathang]

When I went for my class 1 found the CAA very helpful. Even FCL. Even said thank you sir on the way out.

Just my experience.

[notice]

re 'said thank you'
So do I, on the rare occasions, when I'm given loadsamoney for very little:D

[somewhatconcerned]

I doubt if those who have ever had dealings certainly on the FCL side need further explanation Grainger.

I considered posting my gripes with them but decided that I couldn't spare the time.

I will summarise by stealing a line from another post 'they are grossly incompetent and the staff are disinterested.' and by saying 'they are a shower of ****' .

Shame aviation isn't controlled by the FAA but then again they would be far to fair and logical.

[Pilot Pete]

hmmmnnnn.

Says on their website they give the same priority to phone calls, emails and 'snail mail' enquiries. I decided to email to request an application form to unfreeze my ATPL. Only took exactly 1 month for it to arrive, thank God I didn't phone..........................!

PP

[stator vane]

ask for Sue Duncan. she is good as they can get!!!

at least when i dealt with her, things happened right away.

cheers;

[Send Clowns]

Had some really positive experieces (again the Medical section, e.g.) andsome really poor ones (you ever tried to get FCL on the phone? Even as an intructor in an approved school we can't always talk to the people we need to speak to). Would therefore agree that they are good if you get lucky, terrible if not, and not worth the money we pay.

JAA seem to be worse :(

[Delta Wun-Wun]

E-mailed them on the 8th as I had not had confirmation of my July sitting of the exams.Got an e-mail back later that day saying that they were not booking July for another couple of weeks.
E-mailed them back to the effect I needed to book leave etc....9 minutes later exam booking confirmed.:) :cool:

[somewhatconcerned]

A confirmation to tell that they can take your money for an examination that will take place with or without you...I'm impressed!!

[F3]

There is a chap called Simon White at CAA FCL who is very helpful and seems to appreciate the concerns of those undergoing advanced flying training.
I have found the CAA very efficient on the few occasions I have dealt with them.

[Dutchie]

The main problem with the CAA and all other agencies is that we only hear the bad stories... Ever seen anybody going to such great depth as GS with a positive story? And believe me there are plenty of those stories.

Just look around in our industry:
1) it starts by slagging of your bank for not giving you the money
2) then it is your instructor for not appreciating your abilities
3) then it is the CFI for not siging you off
4) then the CAA for the above mentioned items
5) then the lady in Personnel for not hiring you
6) then the training captain for being too heavy on you
7) then the base captain for not giving you your wanted base
8) then the Flight Ops Dir for not giving you a left seat
9) then the management for retiring you too late
10)then God for let you die too early

Fortunately their is one stability factor in this: YOU the aviatior who will never make any mistake (like landing on the taxiway at LGW, busting a level, etc.)

Believe me when you are at LGW go to the FCL desk and look through the window behind the desk, do you see people with their feet on the table planning how to screw a few more students?? No because they work their butts of to meet the turn around times with a minimal staff to keep the (your) cost down. Ever wondered why it can take a while to get them on the phone? Again look through the window for the answer: they are working hard.

I have had some very positive and some negative encounters with the CAA but found that I have always been helped with the utmost respect and flexibility.:o

[Polar_stereographic]

Dutchie

Quote:

No because they work their butts of to meet the turn around times with a minimal staff to keep the (your) cost down.

I respect what you are trying to say, and as the son of a Dutch mother I can read through your English as well, but the above, I totaly disagree with. If they where driven to keep costs to a minimum, how can you justify some of their charges? I'm not even going to start listing them here as we all know what they are. The only one that's good value for money is the change of address one.

btw, I've had like most people good nd bad experiences from the Belgrano. It always helps to remember that at the end of the day, you are dealing with people.

PS

[englishal]

to keep the (your) cost down

Ha ha...thats a good one.

[jma]

Mid-March I applied to sit the June exams in Silsoe.
Despite two (!) receipts for the cheque, I havent had any confirmation of location etc from the CAA.
Has anybody else? Do I need to start chasing them yet?
Thanks

[Gin Slinger]

jma - yes, chase.

The test for all of these pseudo-private sector government agencies is would you be happy with that level of service if they were in a competitive sector, i.e. would you be a repeat customer or would you take your hard earned money else where.

They would certainly have lost my business after the little episode with them.

Does anyone know how the fees are decided? Does the CAA have carte blanch (the Anglised spelling) to charge what the want?

[Polar_stereographic]

GS,

It rather looks that way - mind you, if you ask them (ho ho ho), I bet they'd give you chapter and verse on it.

Dutchie, care to comment (just kidding)?

PS

[Lawyerboy]

My tuppence; went for a Class 1 down in Gatwick in September last year, failed the CAA Class 1 but passed (subject to a couple of checks) an FAA Class 1, and passed a lantern test which meant I was entitled to have a restriction on my Class 2 removed forthwith.

It's now mid April - 7 months later - and despite letters, telephone calls and psychic chanting I haven't received a single scrap of paper.

I don't know what it's problem is, but the CAA is a shambles.

[Max Contingency]

I had the misfortune to try and revalidate something with FCL recently that required an assessment from them. After having received 3 different sets of requirements from 3 different FCL staff (resulting in me sitting an exam unnecessarily) I finally met their ever shifting criteria and sent off my log books and licenses. It then took about a month for me to track down the documents after FCL returned them to an address that I had not lived at for over 10 years.

My overall impression was one of great administrative incompetence, typical of many large public bodies with no commercial or performance incentives.

[johnnypick]

Trivial but typical, when you go to the CAA, at the reception there are all the forms that you need. when you come to read the forms, the first thing it says is... please use BLACK INK for all enteries on this form, but when you use the pen on a chain provided........you guest it, it's BLUE.
As I say trivial, but I'm bored.

P.S
64 quid to add an IMC rating.....rip off!

[englishal]

£64 is a bloody rip-off !

Took me over a month to even get a reply. Emailed them early march for the forms to add IMC to my licence, about 2nd April got an email back saying that the form would be in the post.

Still, two weeks on and no licence, logbook etc etc. Hope it comes back before the weather gets crappy again....

Cheers
EA

[mad_jock]

The 57 quid for Radio lic renewal must be the biggest rip off.


I have also noticed as well that the wording has been changed for the initial lic issue for cpl.

"including initial type and instrument rating"

if this means you have to pay 100 quid for the MEP class to be issued its a pretty crafty way of bumping up the cost of cpl/ MEP IR issue by 100 quid.

To be honest i have had nothing but civil replys from the front desk and no problems from medical either ( I wonder if you could pay a fiver extra to garantee the Irish nurse). But i should imagine that due to the rules imposed by the managers about exam sitting, the front desk get alot of grief from rather pissed off punters. After 4 hours of getting flak about things you have no control over is bound to ware even the most considerate person down.

BTW after seeing Oxfords exam hall and sitting exams at Gatwick and Glasgow. The Glasgow venue has alot going for it. The accom in the halls is very reasonably priced and includes an evening meal. And in the exam hall you get 2 desks to work on which makes life an awful lot easier when doing map and CAP work.
Although it may not be the best option if the world bagpiping championships are being held on Glasgow Green :D

MJ

[ILS27R]

Mad Jock,

I never knew you had to renew your Radio Licence?- always thought it was renewed with everything else??

[mad_jock]

Section IX of my RT lic says.

License is to be re-issued not later than x/x/2005.

Must be a JAR thing if it wasn't the case with the old national system.

MJ

[Mister Geezer]

Like any company the CAA has its better employees and the not so good employees.

I had to phone the aircraft registration department a couple of weeks ago and the chap at the other end was superb, bending over backwards to help me and was very friendly!!!!!! However it is the bad experiences that you always remember!!!! I still remember when I phoned FCL a few years ago and the chap was so arrogant and answered the phone by moaning 'Yes', I asked if that was the FCL department and his reply was 'Well, mmmm I hope so!'. He went on to give me a load of waffle on the phone, none of it being true, which made me phone again a few days later with the same enquiry. On the second occasion, I dealt with a chap who was great and more than willing to assist!

Manners can't hurt can they? :rolleyes:

MG

[flight deck man]

Thought I'd just add one for those that do try hard at the CAA FCL dept.

Called them up with some licencing issues and to find out more about licence conversion if I gained a CPL(IR) overseas and then wanted to convert to JAA afterwards.

Not only were they very helpful and friendly but also offered to e-mail me all relevant documentation and info.
Received the e-mail shortly afterwards with an invitation to call them back if I had any further questions.

I'm not sure whom I spoke to but the e-mail I received from them was sent by one MG Sims.

Just shows that there are some at the CAA who do care about us!!