Kamchatka crash: Both pilots drunk

[eu01]

Probably a good reason to avoid flying in Russia:
Russia's investigative agency says both the pilots of a plane that crashed last month in Russia's far east, killing 10 people, were drunk.

The Investigative Committee said Monday that a forensic study found the first pilot of the local flight was lightly intoxicated and his co-pilot was moderately intoxicated when their An-28 slammed into a forest on the Kamchatka Peninsula on Sept. 12. Ten of 14 people on board, including both pilots, were killed.

Investigators say they are looking into who was responsible for letting the pilots board.

Russia has had a series of deadly crashes in recent years, rooted in lax government controls, poor crew training and neglect of safety rules. Investigators determined that the pilot of a plane that crashed in June 2011, killing 47, was also drunk.
Source: The Associated Press

[bille1319]

I watched a programme 5 years ago about Aeroflot safety following an A310 crash over there that found the pilot's children in the cockpit. It was not uncommon for the crew to knock back a few neat vodkas prior to boarding to calm their nerves. This was hardly surprising given the precarious state some of the old TU-154s were in.

[jcjeant]

TSK2gLDpOYY

[Christodoulidesd]

Then people nag when other people jump to stereotypes....

[Tableview]

I would rather fly on an old plane with good pilots than on a new plane with drunk, inexperienced, or incompetent pilots.

[flash8]

It was not uncommon for the crew to knock back a few neat vodkas prior to boarding to calm their nerves. This was hardly surprising given the precarious state some of the old TU-154s were in.

Total and utter :mad:.

[captplaystation]

True, the Tupes weren't all wrecks, and Russian pilots are not nervous, but the Voddies ? sorry, but more than a little truth there I am afraid to say.

Ask any CC from Blue Panorama (who operated with Ukraine Airways back in 1999/2000 & served in the cabin of their aircraft when they code shared MXP-Kiev ) to reveal the flightcrews favorite in-flight tipple.

[Heathrow Harry]

regretfully there is plenty of evidence that Russians drink on duty in all sorts of critical jobs

I believe it's starting to change, especially in the bigger, well run outfits, but it wouldn't surprise me in this case

[Dg800]

Ask any CC from Blue Panorama (who operated with Ukraine Airways back in 1999/2000 & served in the cabin of their aircraft when they code shared MXP-Kiev ) to reveal the flightcrews favorite in-flight tipple.

You are aware that Russia and Ukraine are two separate countries, right?

[Alex757]

Call me whatever you will, but I really would not feel safe getting on a Russian plane.

[waldopepper42]

Different industry, but the same principle applies:

I worked in St. Petersburg for over a year for a company that had an extensive haulage department. I was told that every morning, before being alllowed in to the lorries, the drivers had to report to the company doctor for alcohol testing.

This suggests two things to me:
1. The drinking culture is/has been very strong in Russia, making the above statements more believable in the past.
2. Attitudes have changed (or at least are changing) and steps are being taken to make these scenarios much less likely in the furure.

[sitigeltfel]

Not aviation, but a cultural problem perhaps?

Drunken Eastern European sea captains endanger waters, judge warns - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9611444/Drunken-Eastern-European-sea-captains-endanger-waters-judge-warns.html)

[Tableview]

The cultures in Russia and Ukraine are broadly similar.

Drinking is very much part of that culture, both during and outside work hours. I contracted in Moscow for Aeroflot (ground based - nothing to do with flying) and some of the people I worked with had started on the way to work and were well-oiled by the mid-morning break, at which I was invariably invited to join them in the kitchen for 'special' coffee. The only way out was to tell them I was a teetotaller. That said, they seemed to function remarkably well considering their alcohol intake.

[ATC Watcher]

You are all reacting to a press report. Not the actual report.
he Investigative Committee said Monday that a forensic study found the first pilot of the local flight was lightly intoxicated and his co-pilot was moderately intoxicated..

I would like to see the definition of " lightly intoxicated" and I bet you a case of Vodka that the accident causes had nothing to do with that fact.

[Two's in]

The Captain of the Perm 737 that crashed in 2008 tested positive for alcohol - sadly after all 82 pax and 6 crew were killed.

[John21UK]

I had the pleasure of sharing a house with a Russian crew, all aged 40/45+ who, before doing their actual typerating on a western build aircraft, got send from deep dark mother Russia to get used to flying glass cockpit aircraft in a 2 man operation. They had been flying all types of Antonovs and TU's and had great stories to tell. One more amazing than the other. Even in the house, the captain was the boss.

They had one thing in the fridge: Vodka! And boy, could they drink...!

I heard from the training company that they were shockingly bad though. Good for Russia's way of doing things but they could not fly a modern airliner. But that's off topic.

[vovachan]

" lightly intoxicated"

Light- Better mood, talkative, there is a feeling of muscular relaxation and physical wellbeing. Facial expressions become more expressive, movements less precise.

Moderate intoxication. Instead of a good mood can be irritability, resentment sometimes malice and aggression. Self-esteem inflated. Impaired coordination of movements and gait. Speech becomes slurred. Reduced pain and temperature sensitivity.

[Capt Claret]

A TV documentary shown in Aus in the late 90's on the ABC, possibly a BBC or Granada production, called Aeroplanski, had numerous references to pre & inflight imbibing.

[Green Guard]

Good for Russia's way of doing things but they could not fly a modern airliner. But that's off topic.

Maybe you should ask thos eguys too:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/496702-airbus-takes-pilots-back-basics-a350.html

[Icelanta]

Every pilot is checked by a doctor before flight on blood pressure and alcohol level in Russia.
Russian aviation is NOT unsafe in general. I can guarantee that here in Western Europe, we also have our fair share of crew flying when over the limit.:=

[captplaystation]

The mere fact they feel the need to test all crews before flight is enough of a worry for me. . . I did two Summer seasons with airBaltic (not so long ago part of the Soviet Union & still VERY much under the influence . . . Hic! of the Motherland ) & random alcohol tests were very much a normal day to day occurence there. . .the first company I have ever experienced this. . .why ? well, draw your own conclusions.

[transilvana]

six years fying in/out russia every week, I can tell you how much these guys can drink. I still remember my first night in Moscow.

F/A I have had flying with me came from different companies and toasting with Vodka for a save flight was item 1 before starting engines on the QRH and last item before leaving the aircraft. "Russian Standard" SOP´s.

BTW, all ex USSR countries share the same way of thinking and I still can´t get it.

[Bengerman]

Icelanta.......

Russian aviation is NOT unsafe in general

So why do they have so many crashes?

[Icelanta]

Biggest country in the world, some of the most difficult flying in the world, some of the worst equipment in the world. But they still get the job done, and mostly in a very professional way. we are still keeping these cold war opinions, they are nowadays absolutely incorrect and we should look more into our own plates, because not all of it is tasty.

[DownIn3Green]

Yeah, but...

When I was fortunate enough to fly to Riga on vacations several yrs ago, I would go out of my way to fly DL to Moscow and catch the nightly TU-154 to Riga...

Never a problem...excellent service and the old 154 is built like the proverbial S.H...a great sense of security...

But to each their own...sorry Aeroflot retired the old bird...

[Airbubba]

Quote: Russian aviation is NOT unsafe in general

So why do they have so many crashes?

Reminds me of what a FedEx pilot said about the MD-11: 'It's a great plane, it just crashes a lot!'

[Tableview]

A TV documentary shown in Aus in the late 90's on the ABC, possibly a BBC or Granada production, called Aeroplanski, had numerous references to pre & inflight imbibing.

I remember seeing that, or a similar, documentary, it was shown on SATV. There was one scene which sticks in my memory, of a group of middle-aged pilots sitting at a table before flying, knocking back vodka. One said : "No vorry for drink. Look for age of pilot, old pilot good pilot, young pilot maybe not so good. Nazhdarovya!"

[Tinribs]

I was in a helicopter crash on the Kola peninsular some years ago, eventually got back to flying after 7 months off sick.

It seemed to me, with a grand total of 2 hours flying helos, that we had a vortex ring encounter at about 100 ft on the approach in a MN2

The Russian investigator said ring vortex was not a Russian problem and the official account published in Flight Int had no similarity to our crash

On the pluss side the helo was very solidly built and survived cartwheeling down the strip intact which saved us all

[flash8]

Biggest country in the world, some of the most difficult flying in the world, some of the worst equipment in the world. But they still get the job done, and mostly in a very professional way. we are still keeping these cold war opinions, they are nowadays absolutely incorrect and we should look more into our own plates, because not all of it is tasty.

The most sensible post on this thread, thanks Icelanta.

And I reiterate, as a (former) 737 guy operating out of Russia, KZ, UZ and GE for 2 years (2004-2006) I think I have better experience than most.

Take it from me you don't want to know what the consequences would have been.

Edited as I made a mistake with dates (old age..)

[Wile E. Coyote]

Imagine what Eastern European sailors are like....
At 0546 (UTC+1) on 15 February 2011, the feeder container vessel K-Wave (7170 gross tons) ran aground 13 miles east of Malaga on the south Spanish coast, while on passage from Algeciras to Valencia. At the time of the grounding she was proceeding at full speed, and the bridge was unmanned.

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/K%20Wave_Web_Report.pdf

An extract from the report : K-Wave steamed almost 50 miles, at full speed and with no one on the bridge, before grounding. While it was unlikely that this was the intended outcome when the party on the bridge started.....

I have just once got drunk with Russians. Four pints of Guinness and a bottle of vodka each. I had a two-day hangover. The Russian "lady" could barely walk the next day as she was still drunk but she drove to work. Next morning the Russian guy appeared to be stone-cold sober and had no hangover - I later found out he drank a bottle of vodka three or four times a week.

[jcjeant]

At the time of the grounding she was proceeding at full speed, and the bridge was unmanned.Are you sure of this ?
Usually they put a ( sober ) dog on watch to bark in case of danger :)

[transilvana]

I have some nice sentences, to resume, if you have not been in Russia you have not seen anything:

"Welcome to former Soviet Union"
"-25ºC OAT, fuel guy, I was former Pilot hunting submarines in Siberia, this is summer, it´s cold when below -40ºC, you drink vodka then it´s hot"
"It´s not my problem"
"it´s not my job"
"It´s russian standard operation"
"Nasdarovia"
"You my friend, you drunk with me a lot last night"

On the other hand I´m really impressed on how they designed aircrafts for their country, these guys were really smart, p.e: On the Tu-154 the APU exhaust hits both mail wheels boggies for defrozing

[dvv]

The easiest way to tell that a person has no idea what he's talking about when he's talking about Russians is the mention of "nazdorovie" (any way you spell it) as a toast. Here's a news flash for you guys: Russians don't use "nazdorovie" ("на здоровье") as a toast. No matter what you've been told in cheap-ass spy novels, movies or TV series.

[transilvana]

The easiest way to tell that a person has no idea what he's talking about when he's talking about Russians is the mention of "nazdorovie" (any way you spell it) as a toast. Here's a news flash for you guys: Russians don't use "nazdorovie" ("на здоровье") as a toast. No matter what you've been told in cheap-ass spy novels, movies or TV series.

Oh, now I get it, you can not get toasts down there in KIAD... sorry mate, next time in ULLI or UUWW.

[keitaidenwa]

In a small African town, a Russian/Ukrainian crew toasted with "for good weathers" or "for safe trip!" before dressing up and heading to their an-26...

[dvv]

Oh, now I get it, you can not get toasts down there in KIAD... sorry mate, next time in ULLI or UUWW.

Huh? What do you think I did just 30 minutes ago — a bit outside the pattern, but still inside the core of the KIAD upside down wedding cake?

[dvv]

keitaidenwa, was it the same guys who later died from methanol poisoning?

[waldopepper42]

Russians don't use "nazdorovie" ("на здоровье") as a toast.

No, they use za zdorovie. nazdorovie (phonetic spelling) is Polish.

[jackx123]

Not sure why mod deleted my previous post since the thread touches upon culture of Russian/former soviet airlines. This link may also be deleted by mod since it has some offensive scenes in some cultures.

Airplaneski! A documentary on the fall of Aeroflot and Soviet Aviation Part 5 - YouTube

[Azrael229]

Actually it's "na zdrowie" in Polish. There is no "a" or "o" after "d". ;)

[ATC Watcher]

This link may also be deleted by mod since it has some offensive scenes in some cultures.
Why ? because an old pilot buys a bird and let him go free ?
That says a lot about Russians too.

Nearly all of the Russians I crossed in my carreer were all great guys, before after the collapse of the USSR.

[paparomeodelta]

Since we are talking about different cultures in regard to attitudes to safety, I posted a youtube link showing pre flight preparations etc. in a TU-154, which demonstrates some - for a professional - obvious differences.

That post was deleted by mod.

It is obviously of more importance on this forum to discuss the correct spelling of "na zdrowie" in Polish.

Anyone wants me to try and post it again, for comparison of SOPs, and a following discussion?

[jcjeant]

paparomeodelta
It is obviously of more importance on this forum to discuss the correct spelling of "na zdrowie" in Polish.This is the "international" spelling:
http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/g0/beer.gif

Anyone wants me to try and post it again, for comparison of SOPs, and a following discussion? I can't wait ! :ok:

[ATC Watcher]

Me too! But just post the you tube link , avoid commentary .this helps .:ok:

[PPRuNe Towers]

It lasted and hour and sixteen minutes and drove us to drink:sad:

Try a you tube search on Flight to the North

[liider]

Now they will have not only preflight, but also postflight alco checks in Kamchatka since this week, "as an additional safety measure"....

[Flaps45]

Greeting to all from a native russian and an ex-aeroflot pilot!!

Thank you for your interest. Russian aviation has a lot of safety problems (we were the most dangerous country in the World to board an airplane in 2011). Most of the problems are because of the leftovers from the soviet rule and the current police state we live in..

The tolerances to risk are much higher and breaking the rules is a national sport. Also the wide spread corruption causing people to be half depressed because they can't progress in life as much as they deserve to.

The big issues are:
• Very basic flight training education.
• Very low experience upon the entry into the workforce. A kid with 80 hours in a Yak-18 going into the A320 or B737 is a norm. There is a Captain upgrade program for pilots with 800 hours of total time.
• Lack of discipline or motivation.

You bump into people that simply don’t care. They will do the very minimum – just how it was in socialism. No pride for the job any longer. If you are not connected you will be FO for a long, long time. If you are connected you will be sorted by the importance of your connection. Sons of congressmen upgrade within a year. Then they tell everyone how sharp they are. If you don’t bring regular bribes to the scheduling you will fly the worst trips for the least pay. That is why once people reach a certain level the apathy settles in.
Companies are hurting for pilots and everyone flies up to the legal limit – 92 block hours every month. A330 guys fly in two-men crews regardless of flight time, except to the US after the FAA threatened to take the rights away.

Yes, there is a medical test before every flight. Nurse, not an MD, blood pressure, heart rate and overall condition assessment through a simple conversation. Why do we have it and the rest of the World doesn’t? Drinking and breaking rules is deep in the culture.
Does it help to have it? I think so, but intoxicated pilots flying the jets is nothing new or unheard of.

With all that being said there are a ton of people who do a good job. They still love it and work to become better at it. Many try to emigrate or find commutable contract jobs elsewhere while still living in Russia.

The comments about nazdarovie made me smile :).
На здоровье, за ваше здоровье, за твоё здоровье, будьте здоровы – it truly is all Russian, acceptable and widely used! Not sure how the Polish use it..

[Heathrow Harry]

good post Flaps......:D:D

[Flaps45]

Thanks, Harry!

kateean2,
Exactly right..
It is heartbreaking; Russia is averaging over 4 gallons of alcohol per capita, per year. This data is slightly misleading because Russians consume a lot more hard liker, like Vodka, in comparison to say, Germans who mostly drink beer. They say: “Well, maybe for a walk in a park I’ll crack a bottle of beer, but when we a sitting at a table, partying with my friends, we don’t bother with girly drinks!”

However, it is not just about the quantities.. Sadly, the bigger issue is the lack of common sense and drinking on the job or “budgeting” not enough time to metabolize prior to report for duty.
They even brag about it!! They talk about parties and getting hammered all the time. Many youngsters crave this “risky and exiting life”…
All this peer pressure gets them through the young years and then plain addiction kicks in and they can’t stop even if they want.

Not sure where we lost it.. Possibly with the destruction of meaningful religion? Maybe with socialism and government control in everything? .. when people lose the freedom to achieve something relying only on themselves and God?

When I moved to America I hit the ground running. I built the life I always wanted and needless to say haven’t had an alcoholic drink in 15 years.

All the best to all!
Be careful what you let your body become addicted to. Treasure the freedoms you have.

PS. There is an important development in progress in the Russian aviation law. The Duma (Parliament) has a bill going through, which should make it possible for foreign nationals to fly for Russian domestic and international airlines. I am looking forward to such change. I hope it will bring professional attitudes back into the cockpits.

[up_down_n_out]

"fraid you won't get any improvement in transport safety in Russia until you root out the cause. One group of people have different laws from the rest,.

This headline is an almost daily occurrence in Russia, from the abuse of the Migalki brigade, and the endemic corruption.

This was the flavour of the month of October:-

"A drunken Russian police officer rammed his vehicle into a retiree yesterday, killing her on the spot, shortly before another officer ran over a six-year-old girl in Moscow.

The cases came after at least two other fatal road accidents perpetuated by inebriated officers over the last fortnight, underlining Russia’s problem with drunk-driving.
Yesterday morning a police officer “who was drunk at the wheel ... mowed down a 74-year-old retiree, who died on the spot from her injuries”, according to a statement issued by police from the far-eastern Primorie region.

Just hours later in Moscow, another officer hit the girl as she was crossing the road with her mother, Moscow Echo radio said.
The child has been hospitalised. According to a preliminary investigation, however, the driver was sober in this case.

On Friday, another officer, who was inebriated, hit three pedestrians, killing one.
The police officer was on leave at the time of the accident, Moscow police said then.
And a week earlier, the head of criminal police from a Saint Petersburg district, also drunk, ran over a man who died on the spot.

The police officer tried to flee, but was caught by a nearby patrol.
Russia has one of the worst road accident rates, due to alcoholism and drivers’ failure to respect the highway code.
Authorities said the number of accidents reached a record 200,000 accidents in 2011, leading to 28,000 deaths. "