CO r/t readbacks to ATC

[Bearcat]

Anyone over the North Sea this morning listening to UK ATC giving a CO adirect to Dogga.......it took at least 5 times to get the message across. I thought it was a bad show on CO's behalf and they didnt seem to give a toss.

I am not US bashing but if you go into US airspace and get a clearance wrong 6 times they will tell you turn left 180 degrees and get out of their airspace.

I can see the threads flying in but I aint makin it up.

Capt Bear

[Avman]

It's nothing new. Been putting up with it for years. Do the same with Chicago Approach and you are most definitely vectored away to the back of the line. I can understand our American cousins having problems understanding and pronouncing some of the weird and wonderful reporting points and intersections we have here in Europe, but DOGGA has been around even more years than I have :D

[Pandora]

I have noticed LHR ATC trying to educate our Amercian cousins in the arcane art of 'reading back your clearance'. After being given a clearance a lot of American pilots (no single company seems to be worse than any other) are replying with 'Roger'.

Oh, and please - there is no 'T' in Bovingdon.

[Check 6]

No American bashing please. Here is an explanation: FAA ATC procedures in the U.S. do not require reback of clearances if the clearance is acknowledged by "roger." (Yes, there are exceptions).

It is hard to break this habit. Is this right? No it is not, but this is the reason.

I currently train American pilots new to Europe, and I am constantly beating on them to repeat back ALL clearances. Human nature, it is hard to break old habits.

Also, accents cause problems, and intersections (points) many times are difficult to understand. When controllers spontaneously spell some intersections phonetically, without a request, this helps, and shows professionalism on the ATCO's part. Yes, this is not always possible, but when it occurs, thank you.

I have heard the same situation occur in the U.S. with non-U.S. pilots flying over America. It works both ways.

:D :D

[Confirmed Must Ride]

At least CO ws listening to the radio!:D :D

[Bearcat]

Check 6 I am not US bashing, it does'nt matter where you are from but waffling back clearances does not stick with any controllers. Some controllers let it go others ask people to repeat clearly instructions given and the term roger is a cop out. Climb now, descend now does not deserve a "roger" or some back of the throat gurgle.

[Pandora]

As read from the plate Bovingdon is spelt B-O-V-I-N-G-D-O-N. The ATCO shouldn't need to spell it if they have their plates open at the correct page.

[Check 6]

Whatever.

[BEXIL160]

Perhaps Check 6 or any others can enlighten me...

One of the sectors that I look after at LACC is sector 16 (Formerly known as Dover High). PARIS TMA departures heading for the Ocean often come my way and as is required I give them the correct routing (e.g. DET-BPK-TNT) and ask what their requested level is.

Now two points, and this is not US bashing, I have some VERY good friends out there and love Tx (okay everybodys got their faults:D ).

Particularly with regard to American crews (no specific operator), why:

ONE) Does the route seem like a complete mystery? After all, it is on the filed flight plan and presumably is what is on the FMS legs page as well. I'm giving you another cross check when I clear you along the route.

TWO) Does the request for the requested level also seem to cause much consternation. Always. I know that some aircraft are a bit heavy and don't want to go strait to their Oceanic level, but hey, surely you have SOME idea of what would be good initially. I mean FL260, the level that PARIS/RHIEMS give you is a bit low and I can usually find something a bit more useful. If I know what you want or can accept that is.

Curiously enough, soliciting the same info and route readback from Air France is usually quick and concise. Not what i might expect, given that English is not our French colleagues favorite tongue.

Please help me to understand....

Rgds BEX

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Pandora - I can only speak as an approach man but a significant number of British guys don't read back speed control instructions and just say "roger" or "roger on the speed". Our American cousins may have faults, like us all, but they're pretty damned good on the speed control bit.

[Check 6]

BEXIL160 good questions.

1. I have not flown the DET-BPK-TNT route before, but looking at a high altitude chart, BPK-TNT does not have a connecting airway, so the portion must be DCT routing. Maybe that is the confusion, i.e. the crew looks at their chart trying to figure out how they "connect the dots." This is just speculation, and the only reason I can provide.

2. In our case, we do not have FMS, etc., so sometimes, when asked for our requested final altitude, we do a quick computation to see if the actual temperatures aloft will allow us to go higher, i.e. not the "forecast" temperatures. So, there might be a slight delay in answering your question. This delay (90 seconds plus/minus) may give the wrong signals. Yes, we know what our requested altitude on our FP is, but maybe we would like something a little higher.

I hope this sheds some light, IMHO. Maybe others have a different spin on your questions.

Cheers, ;)

[TowerDog]

Bexil:

Some of the confusion on reading back a clearance as you describe may be caused by this:

In the US, if we are cleared as filed, then that is it.
No need for each controller to repeat it and the pilots to parrot it back every time we change frequency.
If we are being read a sector clearance, uh, that of course means it must be diffferent from what we filed, and we have to look up the new points, airway etc. (Change in plans)

Does that make sense to you?
Why keep repeating the same clearance if it is already filed, accepted and loaded in the FMC?

I was a bit confused the first few times crossing the pond and entering European airspace, all the UpperTango this and Green/Blue that.
No big deal anymore, but I can see why a new pilot would have problem reading back a clearance that came a bit un-expected.
Not many times have I heard a European controller ask: "Ready to copy?"

Instead they rattle of something long and fast while I am trying to put the breakfast tray away without spilling coffe, then find the pen that fell on the floor and rolled under the seat, grab the chart and look at the route, compare it with the flightplan, then read back the whole thing in 2 seconds.
All at 3 in the morning with no sleep.:D

It may be easy on the ground 'cause ya keep controlling the same sector over and over again. Pilots can find themselfs over the Atlantic one day and the Pacific next. Even fly around the world in a couple of days. Been there, done that.

Be nice to tired pilots..;)

[Justforkix]

I few people needs to learn about clearance limits! ;)

[ijp]

I don't care if I or any pilot have to repeat a 100 times...get it right and be 100% sure you are right. There is nothing worse than screaming along and be going the wrong way because you got the clearance wrong.
I can not pronounce most french words, so I repeat the identifier like charlie-lima-bravo.
KEEP ASKING UNTIL YOU GET IT RIGHT !!!

[expedite_climb]

I must admit, for a brit who has done it several times before, Kathy - MID - OCK - HEMEL - POL for Newcastle still throws me a little.

Its almost like the greek atc clearances !

[BEXIL160]

Dear All

Thanks for all the informative posts from the Pilots point of view. Much appreciated, and hopefully others will read and take note also.

I DO try to be kind when I know that aircrew have been up all night, and try to keep things as straightforward as possible, no complicated clearances for instance.

I am also well aware that nobody is really at their best at 0500 having flown all night, after all I've probably been up all night as well, and it's all too easy to get things wrong in the early hours, for all of us.

Tks again
rgds BEX

[BEXIL160]

A quick P.S. for expedite climb...

The standard route from BARLU to East Midlands goes as follows :

BARLU-FAWBO-KATHY-MID-OCK-HEMEL-WELIN-SAPCO

Reading that lot out, and getting a correct readback as we are REQUIRED to do, on busy frequency is a real challenge for all invloved, pilots and controllers alike.

I bet a colleague once that the next pilot I read the above spiel out to would get it wrong. I won. In a tired voice he just replied "Standard arrival East Mids" :D .

I have a lot of sympathy, but as yet we aren't allowed to abbreviate the routes very much and we are supposed to issue at least the first part of the route on first ctc with London. Aeroplanes have been known to set off in completely unexpected directions, much to everyones embarrassment, hence the confirmation of route cleared.

Rgds BEX

[Bigmouth]

It wouldn´t hurt if ATC could specify wether the fix is a VOR or an intersection: ¨cleared direct DOGGA intersection¨. They do it stateside and it helps us just a little when in unfamiliar airspace.

[AdamUK]

Our lard arse friends in US must comply with our rules when in UK airspace - there is no discussion.

Similar things happen when being given vectors by BHX

[411A]

..and in a similar vein...our Brit friends must adhere to the speeds mandated by ATC, while in the USA. Just last week in PHX, good 'ole speedbird was told to maintain 200 knots, 25 miles from the airport....and of course he promptly slows down to 160...passed him in my KingAir like he was dragging a boat anchor.

[Young Paul]

Ah well, we've already discussed the problems of BA arriving early ....

Also, it's Dean Cross, not Dean's Cross.

If you can't read back a clearance on the first prompt, that will presumably mean that you are going to have problems with complying with it, doesn't it?

The most important one is conditional line up clearances. That's partly what killed so many people in Tenerife - and more recently a pilot in Paris. People have to know what is going on - and know that you know what is going on as well. This is not a question of following rules, but airmanship. Following rules might not be enough to save your life.

[411A]

Early...ah, no. More than an hour late. Must have been on overtime.

[radar707]

A mandatory readback is MANDATORY, like it or not it has to be done, As a twr/apr controller I find that both US and UK crews are equally negligent in the readback area, US crews flying into my airport are mainly guilty of not reading back the type of service they are receiving (RAS/RCS), UK crews have problems with QNH, it's swings and roundabouts, If they miss a readback a couple of times, I tell them they are requires to readback in full the ???? they generally do, if not (as has happened a few times with Spanish crew), then they are told to hold position (if on the ground) or to route to the hold (if on the approach), it's remarkable how the understanding of the English language can change if they think a delay might result!!

[411A]

Standard Terminal Arrival Routes would be a help....instead of a string of intersections, VOR's, NDB's etc.
Good gosh, someone thought of that already....
Wonder WHY it is NOT used more often in the UK? :p

[HAL Pilot]

The US FAA announced about a year ago that a pilot is responsible for the clearance as given by the controller. If a pilot reads the clearance back wrong, the controller has no obligation to correct him and the pilot is still legally responsible to follow what the controller issued, even though he doesn't know he misunderstood it. Great system, huh?

So much for checks and balances. The NTSB is against this FAA ruling, but since they are not a regulatory organization, the FAA can ignore them.

[411A]

Hey HAL, note that you are from LAS...and also note that the FAA is set to introduce VNAV arrival routes there soon. Let us know how these work out in practice....we will be flying to LAS with a TriStar soon and might fit these in our aeroplanes.

[HAL Pilot]

411A,

I would but I've been on furlough since October. Expect to be recalled in June or July.