United chief attacks high aviation taxes levied in Britain

[stuckgear]

United chief attacks high aviation taxes levied in Britain - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/9593017/United-chief-attacks-high-aviation-taxes-levied-in-Britain.html)#


Jeff Smisek, the chief executive of United, also condemned the European Union for trying to force American carriers into its emissions trading scheme (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/9592647/Merger-of-United-and-Continental-airlines-calls-for-much-horse-trading.html). Mr Smisek, who, following the merger of United with Continental heads an airline with 1,252 aircraft, warned that high aviation taxes in Britain would see business being driven to Europe.

"There will always be services to the UK," Mr Smisek said. But there will be fewer services and fewer jobs. If you chose a tax to destroy an industry, APD is doing a pretty good job."

Critics of the tax point out that the APD for a family of four travelling to Florida in the US has risen from £40 in 1994 to £260 today.

Describing APD as irrational, Mr Smisek also voiced fears of the growing tensions surrounding the EU's attempts to force all airlines – including those from outside Europe – to buy carbon permits.

Last month, the US Senate passed a bill which would effectively make it illegal for American carriers to co-operate with the ETS scheme

[hetfield]

...high aviation taxes in Britain would see business being driven to Europe. For Mr. Smisek:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Europe_Asia_transcontinental.png/250px-Europe_Asia_transcontinental.png

Green = States geographically in Europe (excepting overseas possessions; island states UK, Ireland, Iceland and Malta usually grouped with the European continent)

[stuckgear]

and yet another typical non sequitur from hetfield.

[hetfield]

Thx stuckgear:ok:.

This Latin literary device fits just perfect for:

"...high aviation taxes in Britain would see business being driven to Europe."

[fireflybob]

"...high aviation taxes in Britain would see business being driven to Europe."

I regard his remark as a compliment to Great Britain and the idea of being separate from the EU is something many of us look forward to with glee.

[stuckgear]

hetfield,

i am quite at odds with your stance. You seem to openly support any and all policy that is detrimental to the industry and the futures of those that work in it. Yet,You claim to have been a commercial pilot for a number years and have now retired, but are seeking atonement for your choices you made for your career gains.

As you have said, you've retired; So you're done.

So why support damage at a policy level for those who still have many years in this industry ?

Hypocrite or just plain selfish ?

[hetfield]

@stuckgear

You know what?

I simply don't trust people who have no knowledge of "the old world".

[stuckgear]

Ah! so this would reference, as you pointed out, your support for the EU-ETS based on the United States involvement in Vietnam and Korea..

:confused: WTF ?


what about your rebuttal of the claims that high taxation on aviation in the UK is damaging the industry, which it is, by posting a map of Europe.

:confused: WTF ?

Perhaps in the 'old world' you did a tad too much LSD.

so what does:

If you chose a tax to destroy an industry, APD is doing a pretty good job."

have to do with the 'old world' ?

or the fact that you support policy actions that are damaging to the industry and the futures of the tens of thousands that work in it ?

[hetfield]

Why do you get that personal?


A CEO of a Mega Airline who doesn't know which states belong to europe is IMHO a no no.

[stuckgear]

its personal when, people support punitive action against my industry and my future as well as the the tens of thousands that work within it.

oh so you are decrying Mr Smisek's assertion that punitive taxation in the UK is damaging for the UK based industry because he didn't say 'elsewhere' in Europe.?

that's weak, really weak.


but still, you present not justification for punitive taxation.

or perhaps like your vietnam and korea claim you going to justify it by citing the Boer War perhaps ?

[green granite]

Why do you get that personal?

Perhaps he read your attack on me in another thread for daring to post something that you apparently disliked.

[Groundloop]

A CEO of a Mega Airline who doesn't know which states belong to europe is IMHO a no no.

Of course he'll know the UK is in the EU. What he means is that services to European countries other than the UK are more attractive because their taxation is lower.

[hetfield]

I'm simply sad about educational level of "top notch" managers and politicians in a powerfull country like the US.

There are plenty examples of poor knowledge or ignorance of geography and cultures outside the US. It scares me and history has prooven that this fact may not only harm the US by itself....

[Mercenary Pilot]

I think it is fairly clear that Jeff Smisek is talking about the APD which is a UK tax not a European wide thing.

Many senior airline execs in the UK are also calling for this tax to be dropped or reduced significantly, It will cause traffic to move to other European countries causing further harm to the industry in Britain. Whilst in the short term and more importantly to United and Jeff Smisek, it is harming passenger numbers, profit margins and early bookings from LHR/LGW to the USA.

EDIT: That is an extremely badly written and confused article. The APD and Emission Trading Scheme are 2 separate issues. The only link is that the British government call the APD a 'green tax' although I doubt any of the money goes to environmental programmes. Better to allow the airlines to make more profit and invest in modern fuel efficient fleets!

[stuckgear]

the British government call the APD a 'green tax' although I doubt any of the money goes to environmental programmes.

well, you have that right..

from 2009..

Chancellor Alistair Darling has admitted that Air Passenger Duty (APD) is a tax to help fight the banking crisis, according to reports.
Speaking (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/article-1224195/COMMENT-ALEX-BRUMMER-Rocky-flight-green-taxes.html) in London last month, Darling told The Journal (http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-east-news/todays-news/2009/10/23/tax-on-flying-helped-us-to-maintain-north-jobs-61634-24995975/): "I am quite blunt about it, we need to raise money to pay for some things we have done.
"If unemployment goes up there is a cost obviously to the family, there is cost in increased benefits, Northern Rock has cost a lot of money."
A Treasury spokesman confirmed to Travel Weekly APD has always been a "revenue raising instrument".

Darling admits APD will help pay for banking crisis - www.travelweekly.co.uk (http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/2009/11/02/32266/darling-admits-apd-will-help-pay-for-banking-crisis.html)

[stuckgear]

I'm simply sad about educational level of "top notch" managers and politicians in a powerfull country like the US.

There are plenty examples of poor knowledge or ignorance of geography and cultures outside the US. It scares me and history has prooven that this fact may not only harm the US by itself....


ah! so you decide to extrapolate, in your mind, something that was not said and then claim about education levels in others, yet use the word 'prooven' ?

touché

[SMT Member]

Well, first of all I guess it's well worth noticing that this entire debate rests on a newspaper article. A newspaper, gentlemen, and we should all bloody well know the accuracy with which these organisations work.

Furthermore, having listened to the interview at no time does Mr. Smisek say anything along the lines, or even remotely connected to, "driving business to Europe". That, in other words, is the interpretation the Telegraph attached to his sentence, and I quote roughly: "the UK has not seen as many flights, have seen less growth and less new jobs because of the APD". There is nothing to suggest UA have expanded in continental EU instead of the UK; for all we know they could have swung growth in the direction of South America.

What he is implying, is that if it wasn't for the APD he and his cohorts would have poured more capacity into the UK. It would be interesting to put that to the test, since I'm not so sure the UK is presently where growth opportunities lies. So he could, for all it matters, basically be talking ballacks, and all he want is not really to send more aeroplanes across the Atlantic, but to get rid of the APD without lowering ticket prices. Which is fair enough, the first failure of any corporation is failure to produce a profit, but I'm not sure I like the spin.

[lomapaseo]

Well this is a wasted thread again as soon as the Hetfields and Stuks start feuding again :*

On this side of the pond we have to endure politicians running for office using every chance they get to down the other guy instead of explaining their position on issues. Thankfully it will quiet down in early Nov.

[stuckgear]

loma, it may interest you to see who made the OP..

And sorry but in the course of debate, someone gets to call B******t on b******t.

i've clearly stated my position, that i see no justification for punitive taxation on this industry and supported that position with facts..

rather than, give some B/S about justification for the EU-ETS being the United Stets involvement in Vietnam.. again WTF ?

unless we can have a coherent discussion about punitive actions taken against this industry then it will ferster in decline.

Coherent discussion requires that B/S mongers have their illogical and irrelevant arguments shot down and not allow the subject to be diverted into irrelevencies.

Now if anyone wants to put forward a sound argument for punitive policy against this industry, i'm sure we'd all appreciate the opportunity to discuss that.

Otherwise those who are against such damaging actions will rail against those who spout balebovinefeces and call it as such.

or would it better if everyone posted METARs ?

[stuckgear]

SMT,

thank you for the time and effort to actually asserting a position. Much appreciated.

i do take your point and valid it is. You mention that perhaps if it wasnt for APD then it is possible that more capacity would have been given to the T/A ops, would that not therefore be a good thing ? in terms of more capacity, lower prices, along without the increased cost to the ticket purchasing passenger via APD, that costs would come down, thus incentivising people to travel more, thus bringing some much needed stability to the market and the industry ?

[hetfield]

Wasn't it Al Gore who strongly backed a carbon tax?

But 2000, voters were bushy.

[Lyman]

hetfield

Follow the money, and pay attention to whom is carrying it.....(away). Monetizing Carbon makes no sense, if people wanted to seriously address air quality issues, there is money enough to do so, and technology aplenty. Your jaded view of social responsibility puts you in league with actors who have a terrible reputation for doing what is right, and in the public interest.

Making up a grand scheme to put dough into several "general" funds is lunacy.
Have we learned nothing about government?

Where do you gain your confidence that this windfall will go anywhere appropriate, and accomplish anything worthwhile? It is an oppressive, odious money grab by politicians and their shadowy accomplices in politics.

Have some discretion, this is geting embarrassing.

[merlinxx]

:confused: seems he's not happy with the industry which he is/was (dreamed of being) in :ugh: UK ADP is a non valid extra tax. EU ETS is a joke. Glad I'm retired and out of what was the most superb industry/club in the world, still miss it:E:ok:

[hetfield]

Well, I'm not the piper:O

"He who pays the piper calls the tune".

[stuckgear]

EGLF 081450Z 08007KT 3000 -DZ BR BKN004 12/12 Q1011

Wasn't it Al Gore who strongly backed a carbon tax?

But 2000, voters were bushy.

And your point is ?

Al Gore bails from green-energy investment (http://www.wnd.com/2012/09/al-gore-bails-from-green-energy-investment/)
If you are thinking about green energy for your portfolio, Al Gore has a few words of advice: “Don’t do it.”

“Of course he does not say that in public,” says Bill Gunderson, president of Gunderson Capital Management. “Gore’s company still talks about how alternative energy is a good investment. How companies are adopting it, governments are subsidizing it and people are using it.”

But SEC filings from Gore’s company, Generation Investment, tell a different story (http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1375534/000117266112000799/generation2q12.txt)
Al Gore Walks Away From Green Energy - TheStreet (http://www.thestreet.com/story/11727215/1/al-gore-walks-away-from-green-energy.html)
When Al Gore talks, people listen. Just ask the folks who hand out Academy Awards and Nobel Peace Prizes.

Al Gore also talks to investors. Since 2007, the former Vice President in Bill Clinton's administration has been preaching the benefits of putting your money where his mouth is: Alternative energy.
But if Al Gore has any message for investors today, it might very well be this: "Stay the hell away from alternative energy!"

Not that he would say so. At least out loud.
and from 2009, a previous era...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/business/energy-environment/03gore.html?_r=0

Gore’s Dual Role: Advocate and Investor
Mr. Gore and his partners decided to back the company, and in gratitude Silver Spring retained him and John Doerr (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/d/john_doerr/index.html?inline=nyt-per), another Kleiner Perkins partner, as unpaid corporate advisers.
The deal appeared to pay off in a big way last week, when the Energy Department announced $3.4 billion in smart grid grants (http://www.energy.gov/8216.htm). Of the total, more than $560 million went to utilities with which Silver Spring has contracts. Kleiner Perkins and its partners, including Mr. Gore, could recoup their investment many times over in coming years.
Al Gore's Green-Tinged Conflicts Of Interest - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/al-gores-2009-7)

Al Gore's Green-Tinged Conflicts Of Interest
Al Gore is pretty much the embodiment of what we will all soon be calling the Green-Industrial Complex. The American Conservative magazine describes (http://amconmag.com/article/2009/aug/01/00008/) how Gore profits from his advocacy of green causes.


For a snapshot of the federal and business interests intertwined in the rise of green capitalism, consider the best-known environmentalist, Al Gore, director of the film that has informed so many people’s views on the future of our planet, “An Inconvenient Truth.” To many, especially those still convinced that he was robbed of the 2000 presidential election, Gore is simply a super-committed individual determined to make the planet a better place. But there is far more to him. Gore is getting rich from environmentalism, not just by being paid a whopping $175,000 per speech but by using political pressure to force government policy in a direction that benefits his business interests.

[Suzeman]

Originally Posted by stuckgear
or would it better if everyone posted METARs ?
Heathrow:

TEMPO 0916/0918 7000 RA BKN014

I protest.


Damn you Mike 777LR - beat me to it....:ok:

Suzeman

[darkroomsource]

Wasn't it Al Gore who strongly backed a carbon tax?

But 2000, voters were bushy.

Yes, he has a major investment in the company that handles most of the carbon credit transactions in the world. It made him a multi-millionare

[hetfield]

Yeah, and Romney?


With this kind of argument you probably can kill any effort to protect our planet.

[hetfield]

Oh, and thx PPRuNE for shifting....

Sure it is NON AIRLINE TRANSPORT STUFF

:ugh:

[stilton]

Well Smisek is running UA so incompetently they won't be around much longer anyway.


:(

[SMT Member]

If anything, this thread is headed towards the dungeons.

Stuckgear

It would be more correct to say it was Mr. Smisek who alluded to adding more flights betwixt the US and UK, had it not been for the APD. I, on the other hand, am not so sure. For several reasons.

PS
UA is adding a 2nd or 3rd daily IAH-LHR rotation. I can't be all bad, even with the APD.....

[stilton]

Smisek is an idiot, he has, in his brief career as Ceo trashed a fine Airline (Continental) and administered the merger with UA which has been nothing but disastrous.


He has no idea what he is talking about