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Car RAMROD
7th Oct 2012, 02:45
Discussion at the local amongst the blokes yesterday posed the question of the shaded alternate minima box (similar in jepps tables "with actual qnh").

AIP 1.5.5.3.1 QHN Sources has this to say:
Where instrument approach charts are identified by a shaded background to either the minima titles for IAL plates or the published minima for DME or GPS arrivals, landing, circling and alternate minima have been calculated by assuming the use of forecast terminal QNH. These minima may be reduced by 100ft whenever an actual QNH is set. Approved sources of actual QNH are ATC, ATIS, AWIS and CASA-approved meteorological observers. An actual aerodrome QNH obtained from an approved source is valid for a period of 15 minutes from the time of receipt.

Let's say that I'm flying from A to B. The alternate min at B is 1500ft in a shaded box. B has AWIS or ATIS/Twr (depends on what time you arrive). Cloud is forecast BKN014 (for simplicity that is all the weather all day).
The debate is whether you can somewhat "plan to have" actual QNH and thus apply a minima of 1400ft; or whether one would still have to plan for the alternate until you can have an actual QNH within 15 mins of ETA and then your minima magically redces by 100ft and thus now do not require an alternate (as forecast cloud will now be more than SCT AT the minima, not BELOW).

Reading it literally I interpret it as you must not take the 100ft off until you have Actual QNH, and thus it will only be within 15 mins of your arrival and still have to launch with an alternate.
Other opinions I have heard are that "there is AWIS/ATIS/Twr there so you will have actual QNH so the 100ft comes off now whilst im planning the flight and I don't need the alternate".



Discuss/debate !

michael36
7th Oct 2012, 03:35
plan at the published minima, then on your arrival if you can obtain an accurate QNH then reduce the minima. Don't reduce it during the planning stage. You should always plan for the worst case scenario. Think about it in a real world situation, would you want to go into an airport that has overcast cloud at 1400ft without an alternate, for all you know the cloud could be at 1380ft and if you went down to 1400ft you would still not get visual and be left without an alternate

havick
7th Oct 2012, 04:00
What's the alternate minima on the aerodrome plate (for arguments sake)?

jetstar1
7th Oct 2012, 04:20
I think you are missing the point that alternate minima are there to be applied in the planning stage. If the alternate box is shaded and there is a serviceable means of obtaining actual QNH (i.e. not NOTAMed as U/S), there is no reason not to subract 100'. There is nothing stopping you from making a command decision to carrty alternate fuel, but in my understanding it's not legally required.

The Green Goblin
7th Oct 2012, 04:20
The alternate minima is the alternate minima full stop.

If you have a guarantee that you will have an accurate QNH (ATC) then you use the lower alternate minima in the planning stage.

It's legal to depart with the BKN cloud at 1400 ft and many of the min fuel brigade wont think twice about it.

Having said that, I'd always have a bolt hole just in case.

Bladeangle
7th Oct 2012, 05:44
Agree with GG, the alternate minima requires a 500' gap and an additional 2000m viz above the the aerodromes circling minima ceiling and viz. So weather you use accurate or forecast, no biggy...

havick
7th Oct 2012, 07:18
Agree with green goblin... sorry didn't read the original post properly..

MakeItHappenCaptain
7th Oct 2012, 07:23
ATS COMMUNICATIONS FACILITIES in ERSA gives you tower hours. AWIS doesn't go home for dinner and NOTAMS will tell you if there is a problem with it.

QED:ok:

Mr.Buzzy
7th Oct 2012, 07:42
Did you say meow?..........

Bzbzbzbbzzbzbzbzbzbzzzzzzzzz

chimbu warrior
7th Oct 2012, 08:28
A bit of thread drift, but interestingly PNG does not allow the use of AWIS as a valid QNH source. You have to rely on their unreliable TAF (if the met blokes even issue one) for QNH. :rolleyes:

skurgler
7th Oct 2012, 08:52
You want to push it and use the lower minima, suggest you read the Norfolk Island ditching thread, again, and again

There's legal and there's safe

MakeItHappenCaptain
7th Oct 2012, 10:28
I'm never flying IFR in IMC again!
That's safe!:rolleyes: