POLICE TFO'S/AIR OBSERVERS THREAD (NPAS)

[backtothebeat]

Not sure whether or not this thread will survive.
However I felt the HR issues around NPAS and Winsor2 for Police Officer flying crews is likely to be generating enough discussion on its own to warrant a thread of its own. The main NPAS thread is quite generalised and I thought we could keep this one specific to our HR issues.

There appears to have been a wall of silence from cops in the SE about the issues, and the rest of us have no idea if questions are being asked, let alone answered. NPAS greet you with a wall of silence, and there seems to be zero flow of information.

I heard the uptake of posts was low in the SE.
Has this been resolved.? If so how.?

I also hear lots of cops are bailing out due to Winsor2..
Is this true.?
(I heard from a collegue that ALL of the Sheffield ASU cops are bailing out and NPAS wont have any cops there at all come April..?)

Personaly I am bailing out soon, as I can neither risk redundancy nor a £5KPA pay cut to remain as a TFO, bit of a shame after 11 years, but hey ho, Im still employed. (for now)

Any takers for updates..?

[PANews]

I am not so sure that NPAS has actually been failing to answer the quesations wholesale.

Personally they have been fairly open..... anything off limits being declared as such but to me my thoughts are that I have been getting so much information that it is difficult to remember it all in a structured way.

I fully accept that I may now be in a better position than most these days and suspect that those 'in service' are finding it difficult to know who/how to ask an how to get feedback from those that have asked.

[morris1]

Feelings are in my unit that Winsor is doing the job of civilianising the TFO role way before NPAS had to pull it out the bag anyway.
Personally my force are not being particularly helpful as to redeploying us and we've had to get the federation involved. None of the geographical divisions want us as we all cost too much and need retraining.!
NPAS aren't ready to talk to our region yet as to expressions of interest to remain as TFOs so I don't know what their plans are to fill vacant posts...
I assume it will go out to civilian posts when they get no police takers..!

[Art of flight]

Speaking from within the SE region, I can say that it's pretty much 'ops normal'. The expected teething troubles with new IT systems, ops manuals, email and password access. The units are fully functioning and are attending the usual jobs. Of the 3 units I know, we are short of one TFO due to a career break. Lots of grumbling on the shop floor but it's working.

[Coconutty]

backtothebeat :

Why does everyone keep quoting "only" a £5000 pay cut ? It's actually £5487.00 !
Has it been confirmed that CRTP is staying ?
If so, do you get it only if you remain on the top pay point, in a role which attracts the Specialist Skills Threshold (SST) payment,
or would CRTP also be lost if you don't get SST and have to drop down to the lower point ?
... in which case the pay cut will be a further £1182 which makes £6669 - or if you prefer it's a pay cut of almost 18% :eek:
( Or "only" a 14.5% pay cut if you don't get SST but manage to retain CRTP ! :yuk: )

PAN :
I am not so sure that NPAS has actually been failing to answer the questions wholesale.I am - and some of the "Wholesale" answers that I have seen are simply not true !
The main one that springs to mind is the one about 98% ( or is it 97% now ? ) of the population receiving Air support within 20 minutes.
NPAS are still preaching the figures based on the original flawed calculations -
where aircraft were already airborne at cruising speed over their base,
and started flyng on track towards the task when the clock started,
and not from the time when Air Support is first requested, with crew in the Office, Aircraft in the hangar,
and the Bobby on the Beat having to get their request routed via their Control Room, to the NPAS Control Room,
the NPAS controller to consider the request and agree to it, before being passed to the nearest aircraft to attend.

It is pure and simple DECEPTION to continue quoting this 20 minute response time.

In reality I personally reckon that 97% of the time, Air Support will arrive on scene after a MINIMUM of 20 minutes under NPAS.
I have no facts or figures whatsoever to back this statement up - just like NPAS :hmm:

If this kind of "spin" is still being promulgated by NPAS, and no-one is asking for an explanation PUBLICLY,
what confidence can there be in answers provided to more specific questions ? ( If they get answered at all ) ?

Every time you see one of the NPAS "team" on TV, they continually quote these flawed Response times,
adding that everyone will have access to Air Support 24 hrs a day, that Aircraft will be despatched more quickly,
will be more effective, and will provide better "value" saving £15 million a year.

NONE of this appears to have been challenged publicly, and consequently it all sounds wonderful :ugh:

morris1 :

The feeling by me is that this is not only just the first step towards civilianisation of Police Air Support,
but is also the first step towards a National POLICE FORCE - the one they tried and failed to set up a few years ago.

Watch this space - after National Police Air Support, it will be National Police Firearms Unit,
then National Operational Support Unit, Dogs, etc etc, until finally there WILL be a National Police Force.

I know of at least 4 TFO's in my Region that are planning to leave soon, some because of NPAS, some because of Winsor,
as they cannot afford the risk in staying and are considering progressing their careers in other areas.

Sadly, the lack of Police Officer TFO's may result in the role being Civilianised even sooner,
at a time when Police experience in the air is more crucial than ever.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/CoconuttySad.jpg

[backtothebeat]

I think the £5k gets used an arbitrary figure because it's too upsetting to work it out in too much detail. Any pay cut is a cut too far..!
With the pay freeze dragging on and on anyway, each year the household budget is more difficult.

I take it the SE issues of signing the secondment agreements prior to actually reading them got resolved by the federation..?

My concerns are that if Winsor goes thru as is, and let's face it that's what Ms May wants, then I can't risk being in a post ripe for civilianisation and thus ripe for redundancy. The second concern is that if I don't jump now, then the spaces for all those non-specialist posts may well end up thin on the ground..!!
Go now and avoid the rush..!

[Faithless]

Well if you bobbies rightly vote with your feet and walk I'd happily jump in your boots and do your job. Got my military pension behind me, have camera experience and would love to wake up in the morning to go to work to fly.......... Where do I send my CV?

[Helinut]

Don't be entirely surprised if you don't get a positive and friendly response to that request

[Fortyodd2]

Faithless, you, like Messrs Winsor, Marshall & Watson, are under the misguided view that all that is required to become a police air observer is to be able to use the camera equipment and that there is nothing remotely "specialist" about what they do or the environment in which they operate.
I say this, not as a police air observer, but as a pilot who has worked alongside many of them for the past 15 years. When you can honestly add their levels of skill, ability and knowledge to your CV along with your "camera time" you might get a look in.

[Wagging Finger]

Well if you bobbies rightly vote with your feet and walk I'd happily jump in your boots and do your job. Got my military pension behind me, have camera experience and would love to wake up in the morning to go to work to fly.......... Where do I send my CV?

And we are playing straight in the face of this, the negative attitudes on here only serve to bring this date even closer. We can either all get on with it and make NPAS work with cops as TFO's or we can bitch and moan and watch as we are civilianised. NPAS is here, it will probably end up being civilianised in the long run but if we continue in this vein it will be sooner rather than later.

I don't expect anything to change so If I were you Faithless I would dust off that CV an keep it up to date 'cos we are about to shoot ourselves in the foot.

[PANews]

As you might have gathered I am not sold on either set of opinions, all I can say is that when asked the questions are being answered.

The devil is as ever in the detail and bandying about how you get 20 minutes and whether its 97% or 98% is difficult to rebutt as I have not actually asked the question in those terms simply because at this stage of the game those values are guesses [potentially and hopefully good or inspired ones].

If 20 minutes is from in flight rather than from bottoms on easy chair that sort of makes sense. The 902 and the 135 do not start up at exactly the same rate [do they?] so there must a line drawn in the sand somewhere..... perhaps rotors running.

In my office I have a police poster created by Essex, Suffolk and Cambridge when they flew AS355 and Suffolks faster 135. It was produced at an enlightened time when nobody thought to question its message [as in NPAS] so it wasn't controvercial [then].

On that poster nowhere in the three police areas was outside 15 minutes from their own slowish 355 aircraft and Suffolk's faster 135 could reach anywhere on that patch [of three counties] in 20 minutes from Wattisham.

One 'NPAS lie' that is being bandied about is this 24/7 thing. As of today the UK does not have 24/7 police helicopter availability - fact. As of Monday the South East has 24/7 police helicopter availability and when its all in place 2015 [ish] England and Wales will/should have 24/7 police helicopter availability.

Of course its a bit of a farce really.... near pointless for some ..... the Met provides the [nominal] 24/7 in SE but we all know that they are not going to despatch an EC145 at 4-30am to a PC standing in Dover Castle who has lost his car keys and wants a searchlight. Clearly not important enough and too far. But a less silly example in Chelmsford, Watford or Redhill might stand a real chance of getting air support at such a time and something really important in Portsmouth might get there too.

When the Marchioness went down in the River Thames the Met were tucked up in their beds. That disaster eventually changed how they perceived 24/7 and led to them being 24/7. That is not flying, it is available....... at the drop of a hat.

There are lots of if buts and maybees but nominally 24/7 is certainly a plus point for NPAS even if the time of arrival at 0500 is most certainly not going to fit into the 20 minute bracket.

[SilsoeSid]

The start of the 20 mins was covered in the previous thread.

One 'NPAS lie' that is being bandied about is this 24/7 thing. As of today the UK does not have 24/7 police helicopter availability - fact.

Yes it does!

[backtothebeat]

Wagging finger.

This thread isn't so much about NPAS as about Winsor.

I wouldn't be hanging up my flying kit if it was just NPAS.

It's Winsor which is the issue. Officers can't/won't/shouldn't be taking huge pay cuts to remain in this highly skilled, highly technical post.
Neither will officers remain in a post whereby they are at high risk of redundancy. If Winsor2 is ratified with all these elements in, then expect an exodus of cops back to force.

[morris1]

Yes it certainly does..!
We've had 24/7 cover in my region for almost a decade, by collaborating and working with neighbouring units and between us making our operating times jigsaw together, we've already got what NPAS are selling..!

[PANews]

No. I said the United Kingdom does not have 24/7......

Hands up the last one to fly to Lerwick or the Isle of Man most recently..... hmnn well that will be a no then.

So I guess that 'fact' stays.

Then I said England and Wales which is what is on offer by NPAS.

Practically speaking despite what you may or may not offer to your area and the ones either side you are making that offer to no more than [and this is a real wild guess] 50% of the E&W area and perhaps more in population terms no matter how keen you are. The NPAS offer is E&W lots but as I have suggested its a loaded offer for all the obvious reasons so its never going to be 100% in real terms.

This is not a one man war for NPAS but I do try and choose my words ever so carefully - you are a picky lot!!!!!

:)

[Art of flight]

Thought this thread was about HR issues?

[morris1]

Backtothebeat

Yes. I'm afraid your right.
If its going to cost my £5k-£6k per year to stay flying, then that's the end of it for me. I've got kids in school and there just isnt much fat to trim.

[backtothebeat]

Faithless I should keep your CV handy.
I think in the near future there will be mixed crews of civi and cops.
You'll be just what they're looking for. Mil pension behind you, thus cheap to employ as they'll be paying peanuts.. You don't need to be a cop to put the camera where you're told and zoom in and out. The cop in thr back will tell you what the important bits to capture evidentially are.
It'll be crap for the cops tho because they'll be constantly working back seat til the whole thing goes civi if/ when Winsor gets implemented.

[SilsoeSid]

No. I said the United Kingdom does not have 24/7......

Hands up the last one to fly to Lerwick or the Isle of Man most recently..... hmnn well that will be a no then.

So I guess that 'fact' stays.

The 'fact' is that if a request was made for a 24hr unit to deploy to Lerwick or the Isle of Man, and the criteria were met, an ac would be deployed from wherever an ac was available !

As far as I am aware both Strathclyde and PSNI operate 24/7 which sort of covers up there, while the rest of us cover the remainder of the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'.

[morris1]

Of course there's always the option of following the PSNI model, of how they disposed of the RUC cops via redundancy...!
(20% of them were reemployment by PSNI)

So. Take a nice big redundancy payout when NPAS go civi. Go on holiday for a year or two and pay off what's left of the mortgage. Then go for reemployment with NPAS as a civi TFO..!
:cool:

[Fly_For_Fun]

I thought this thread was about TFO/Observer self adulation. I expect that will come.;)

[yme]

Early days and contrary to A of F I've found it to be not as advertised, but definitely as expected.
Built in delays, (15 mins where it used to be a five) go to any old job ("we have been told if a request comes in we have to give them an aircraft") and if you don't like it "you can always walk away".
Apparently it may be a punishable offence to read a negative report about NPAS! previously thought I could make my own mind up?
:*

The only way is The NPAS way.

[backtothebeat]

Fly for fun.

No the thread isn't for self adulation. But feel free to give some. ;)

I just wanted to specifically steer it towards cops.

After all the government on ALL their comments and inputs seem to making a point at saying that NPAS is "POLICE DRIVEN".....

Makes me suspicious that at some point they'll wash their hands of it and say "nothing to do with us guv..!"

The point remains tho that if winsor2 happens they'll be very few actual police working as crew..!

[Faithless]

Fortyodd,

I say this, not as a police air observer, but as a pilot who has worked alongside many of them for the past 15 years. When you can honestly add their levels of skill, ability and knowledge to your CV along with your "camera time" you might get a look in. Plenty of ex Nimrod crew with camera experience and many of them found themselves out of a job overnight, not forgetting Harrier mates. Lets face it the Military have been hit harder!

I agree that it's very sad that an experienced bobby has to take a 5K pay cut but at least he can re-muster to do the job he joined to do...Be a Police Officer.

Government run agencies are easy pickings so we all have to live with that or move on. Remember "No one is irreplaceable"!

[tigerfish]

C'mon children, stop being silly!

We are talking about Police Helicopters here, not toys. These a/c were purchased at public expense and are crammed full of sophisticated Police role equipment. It matters little, I suppose, who owns them now, The Local force or NPAS. But the public who paid for them have a right to expect the best bang for their buck.

Now I do not believe for one moment that what has happened will be an improvement on what went before. Nor do I believe that the promised savings will be delivered. However just to prove that I do believe in Father Christmas I will say that I believe that the NPAS and ACPO spin machines will be spooled up to show that it has indeed been the best thing since the invention of sliced bread.

So how can the public ensure that they do get the best bang for their buck?
Well quite simply, - insist that your aircraft ( And whatever the spin, they are your aircraft) are properly crewed by real Police Officers with a nose and dedication for doing a Police task. Officers who have spent years feeling collars and have a sixth sense on how a criminal behaves and acts.

If you believe that some civilian who just wants to do a job- any job, and play with lots of lovely kit, but has no proven desire to lock up criminals, is going to make the most of that huge investment of yours, then fine. But I can assure you that many years of experience shows that it is just not going to get the best out of that airframe. Remember a police officer who is not cutting the mustard can more easily be returned to the core role of patrol officer. The civilian with a contract and job description is another kettle of fish. Tribunals etc etc. Aircraft do go tech! The Police officer can be re deployed for a while. The civilian observer??

I have been involved in Police Air Support since 1984 and have watched it grow up. The well proven system has always brought out the best in its staff, or on the odd occasion that an observer has proved to lack motivation, through some pretty implacable UEO's, ruthlessly pruned out the dead wood.

Borderless Policing was not something strange or new to the ASU's. They did it right from the early days, - and why? To catch bloody criminals thats why!

Now, because of bloody politicians and accountants, its whole existance and effectiveness is threatened. Does no one seem to understand that effectiveness is not about being able to show a theoretical helicopter availability in a region over 24 hours, but is actually about how quickly that aircraft can be overhead the task in order to be able to do something useful?

The only good thing left, is the the certainty that as long as that Police Helicopter is crewed by Police Officers then effectiveness may still stand a chance.

Naturally I do not ignore the essential "driver" in my remarks. My experience was that they quickly became part of the team, and enjoyed the task as much as we did.

tigerfish

[Fly_For_Fun]

Back to the beat I thought this was a pilots rumour network but heyho.

[J.A.F.O.]

FFF

I think you'll find that the Rotorheads forum is designed to be "A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them".

Tigerfish

I have a great deal of respect for you and your experience and agree with a vast amount of what you say but I would like to see the evidence that
some civilian who just wants to do a job- any job, and play with lots of lovely kit, but has no proven desire to lock up criminals, is going to make the most of that huge investment of yours, then fine. But I can assure you that many years of experience shows that it is just not going to get the best out of that airframe
I think I'd be able to prove otherwise.

Let's not make this a civilianisation debate.

[backtothebeat]

Fly for fun...
Really...! Is that where you want to go..
Ok theres a pilot in the room, let's talk about you... and sorry for intruding..!!

However before we do...
Thank you tigerfish for such a well observed post..!
Perhaps FFF needs to remember that the fleet of uk police a/c are there for one reason.. Police work.

I assume the name "fly for fun" means "not a professional pilot" and thus outside of police aviation. Otherwise he/she would realise the truth in tiger-fish's comments, in that the crews operate very much as a team. With only a few notable exceptions most pilots respect the TFO's skills and experience and vice versa. Several of my team have over 3000 hrs. When we've had serving mil pilots come visit us or give CRM, our way of working doesn't compute with them, and they can't get their heads round it. It's always been about mutual respect. We as cops respect our pilots skills, and sacrifices in most cases in doing what they do. Our pilots respect us cops because they know that we've got that overiding drive to lock up criminals.

We don't jump up and down complaining about whose train set it is.. !

[yme]

T'fish
Having worked with both Police and Civilian obs, there is very little difference.
It's a fact!

[Faithless]

Tigerfish,

If you believe that some civilian who just wants to do a job- any job, and play with lots of lovely kit, but has no proven desire to lock up criminals, is going to make the most of that huge investment of yours, then fine.

Isn't that what selection and training is all about? I doubt you or I would allow some muppet to do the job that states he wants to wazz and zoom about the sky and spook a few chav's.

It's about attempting to replicate the job that was done so professionally by a Police officer,though no decision of mine or yours, has to continue, however poor or badly the job spec has been affected!

You will never replace experience and skills but you must attempt to plug the gap the best you can.

[SilsoeSid]

backtothebeatWe as cops respect our pilots skills, and sacrifices in most cases in doing what they do. Our pilots respect us cops because they know that we've got that overiding drive to lock up criminals.

Ok theres a pilot in the room, let's talk about you... and sorry for intruding..!!

Nice one backtothebeat, how respectful of you.:ugh:
I think you have lost any respect you might have had from 'your pilots', so I guess you should refer to your username and stand by it. You will find that your overriding drive will be best fulfilled by being backonthebeat, rather than beingintheair :roll eyes:

Most officers I now don't really like being referred to as 'cops', so you've probably also lost their respect :ok:

[tigerfish]

Whilst I can understand some of the comments made in respect of civilian observers, I remain of the opinion that the primary responsibility of the authority is to get the very best out of that very expensive resource.

In the past, when acting as a Silver Commander, I have often observed forward Bronze commanders effectively handing over local control of an incident to the aircraft overhead. They did that confident in the knowledge that up there, giving them advice and direction, was an experienced police officer, subject to the same rules as they were. And to a similar extent knowing what was going on, I allowed that to happen.

I do not believe that the same confidence would occur, if it were known that the entire crew up there were none police!

I repeat, the helicopter is a very effective tool when used properly, but it is also an expensive resource, so convince me that it is OK to take risks with its effectiveness, by taking its command and control out of Police hands and allowing it to be crewed by civilians!

To save a few bob by reducing the confidence in, and command effectiveness, of that resource is not a good idea.

The civilian observer is less flexible in respect of what you can do with him/her during times when the a/c is off line. Once again you may have saved a few bob but was that saving truly cost effective?

That "Police Nose" for tracking down that criminal is impossible to quantify or prove. but believe me as a senior operational officer I have seen it in action many times. You might not be able to put a monetary value on it, but I am bloody sure that you will see a reduction in effectiveness of the air support concept were it to become the norm.

Windsor, is mad! How can you deploy a multi million pound resource, and rely on it to do a good job, but at the same time state that the officer up there, who is controling what it is going on on the ground, is not a front line officer?

tigerfish

[SilsoeSid]

The civilian observer is less flexible in respect of what you can do with him/her during times when the a/c is off line.

Ooooh! Please expand on that one Tf.

[backtothebeat]

Silsoe that's called banter..
All pilots need the p£ss taking out of them on a regular basis, every knows that..?
And why don't the cops you work with like being called cops..? Are you sure about that. I think you'll find it's fine when it comes from another cop..

On a wider issue about Winsor, it affects far more "cops" than just those in air support. There are lots of other specialist posts, including covert surveillance which also don't meet the criteria for remaining on final pay grade. I gather the whole thing is going to arbitration this month. The problem is it could drag on way beyond the decision time for joining NPAS. It's difficult to project forward what might be on the table. I've tried to get updates from NPAS about what Mr Marshal is doing about it, however I'm met with the usual "were working on it".

[Art of flight]

As we seem hell bent on the old (very old) officer v civi debate, i've been amused over the years how many pc observers have been dead set against civilianisation of the role.....until around 18 months from their pension date!

I work with 2/3rds of the civilian TFOs and in my opinion they're amongst the finest of the 40 or so I've worked with, give me an experienced civi observer over an over confident police know it all just off the 3 weeks/6 hour TFO course any day. It takes a longer time to get rid of the pre-conceived ideas as it does to train them. Teamwork is what it's about, as long as we keep fighting over the basics of who we are, we're really not going to be making the most of whats left.

[J.A.F.O.]

Tigerfish

"Nose" is about experience, understanding of the situation and adaptability. It is not a super power that comes with a warrant card.

[SilsoeSid]

No backtothebeat, what you said to flyforfun was a petty bitter attack. You only call it banter now because you have someone else challenging you.

Banter is something more like;
As you only have 6 posts on PPRuNe (at the time of posting this) all of which are on this thread, don't get into the train of thought that anyone is really listening to what you have to say. Young school lads call British Police Officers/Observers/TFO's 'cops', not the people themselves. You've clearly been watching too much CSI or Hawaii-5-0 or perhaps it's spending too much time on the Play-box wheel spinning cars in Grand Theft Auto.
Oh yes, cutting and pasting from other threads to make yourself appear to be 'in the know' doesn't work here either ;)

Finally, as anyone 'in the know' knows, you never-ever, take the p£ss out of 'your' pilot :ok:

[Fly_For_Fun]

Civ obs have been doing a splendid job in the East for years, with the confidence of those on the ground and in the air. I suppose the commanders not realising who is in the aircraft and still getting a superb service just shows that civs are the equal of any officer TFO.

[backtothebeat]

Ah Silsoe my mistake.
Your not ex mil are you..

We cops at our unit do take the p£ss out of "our" pilots.. And VERY much vice versa..
by the way "cop" isn't a derogatory term I don't see why you have a problem with it.? Perhaps you could get a cop from your unit to comment.,?
It may be an issue local to you, I don't know of any cops that have a problem with it and I've known a few over the last 20 years.

And yes. I did have a go at fly for fun for the "this is a pilots forum" comment, when clearly it isn't it, and the comment was quite unnecessary. I'm sure he's a grown up and wont be hurt at anonymouse ramblings in a small fishpond like prune...?
Otherwise you can pass on my apologies to him/her...!

[morris1]

Finally, as anyone 'in the know' knows, you never-ever, take the p£ss out of 'your' pilot :ok:

Seriously ???
That comment would get you at least a weeks worth of constant ribbing on its own..!!

[Wagging Finger]

you never-ever, take the p£ss out of 'your' pilot

What else is there to do on a quiet night or when grounded?? It's a national sport where I work!!

[tigerfish]

Silso,

What I meant about civilian observers being less flexible during down time is this.

They will have a job description and a contract and there is a requirement to work within that scope.

The Police Officer's role is more wide spread, yes he/she will have a job description, but it is bound to include the basic role of being a Police Officer contained within it.

When my a/c was off line for an extended period, say a couple of weeks, it was routine to "loan" the observer police officers back to an operational division. In my experience that never did any harm and indeed it often did a shed load of good to remind the guys what the real sharpe end was like.

In similar fashion,- in order to extend the experience base of new observers who were on the reserve list, we sometimes gave them a temporary 3 month posting to the unit in order to build experience and confidence. At the same time so as not to exceed our establishment, one of the regular observers would return to division to "re chip" on basic patrol duties. Please understand this was NOT a punishment measure, merely a way of preventing staleness from setting in. Most of the observers quite liked the experience.

I hear some of the others saying that in their experience the civilian observer is fine, and I must accept that their experience will be more up to date than mine. But I must come back to the fact that we are talking about a POLICE aircraft, engaged in very front line Policing. I believe that both the public and the Police Service, would be happier if it contained at least one Police Officer as part of its crew.

Policing is changing, and old codgers like me must accept that fact I agree. But given that in this case there is very little financial benifit in employing civilians as observers, and there is some risk in losing the effectiveness of this vital but expensive resource, are you really that enthusiastic about enforcing that change?

Or are you really saying that the Police Officer is only good enough to fight in the gutter outside the dog and duck every saturday night? Specialist roles are too good or too complicated for him/her?

Are you really saying that all the Police Officer observers, who took this art of Police Aviation onwards from the early 80's through to what it is today, were a waste of time? That they shouldn't have done it, and didn't add any value?

Are you really saying, that without their dedication and enthusiasm, the art of Police Air Support would be just as far ahead as it is today? Bah! Rubbish!

I suspect that if it had all been left to the Politicians, or the accountants, or and, I am almost afraid to say it, Senior Military advisors, it would either have not happened at all, or if it did, we would still be using a mixture of Gazelles, Lynx's and Sea kings to try and stop vehicle crime. Radio communications would not have progressed to the point that it is today, nor FLIR or most of the other Police kit. Yes, Yes, - I know that the military had it first, but I don't think that it would have been so specialised or police orientated as it is now.

Nevertheless, I do have every respect for the help and guidance that our ex military pilots gave us (And a smaller number of civilian pilots). They are in my opinion quite simply the best in the world. Anyone who can keep us safe on a black rainy night in the hover or tight orbit, has my total and undying respect. Remember we are talking about Northern hemisphere British weather!

We were the best by 2004, but admittedly expensive, and some changes were inevitable. But I am seriously worried that some one is in real danger of destoying all that we worked so hard to build up.

Something seems to be in danger of going down the plug hole with the bath water !

tigerfish

[J.A.F.O.]

TF

Pilots, police officers and police staff have all contributed to making police aviation in the UK what it was on 30th September this year. What it will be in the future I do not know but we are told that there won't be extended downtime so your argument for flexibility during downtime seems to be null and void.

Your view of how police staff observers have operated for many years and the amount of confidence placed in them is out of line with the experience of those actually involved.

I am not in any way decrying the police officers involved in air support over the years or suggesting that their should be an expansion of civilianisation; all I am saying is that everyone has played a part and many will continue to do so on into the future.

I think that UK police aviation has played a small part in the development of FLIR and a tiny part in the development of communication systems.

[SilsoeSid]

Originally Posted by SilsoeSid

Finally, as anyone 'in the know' knows, you never-ever, take the p£ss out of 'your' pilot

Seriously ???
That comment would get you at least a weeks worth of constant ribbing on its own..!!

What else is there to do on a quiet night or when grounded?? It's a national sport where I work!!


Don't you ever get fed up being constantly reminded of how unarmed you are in a battle of wits? :ok:

[tigerfish]

JAFO,

I cannot accept your comment about "your views are out of line with those who were actually involved! I was involved from 1984 onwards, when did you start?

I agree that there many of us involved and I have never saught to decry that. But I do not agree that UK Police aviation only played a small part in the development of the equipment carried today.

Industry reacts to demand, and I do believe that in no small way our constant demands for better and better kit aided the development of what we have today.

My comments about a/c development flow from observations from family members who are current military aircrew. They are amazed at the quality and complexity of the kit that our a/c carry. My son flies in a helicopter that is 4 years older than he is, and he is 37. He does not have access to the role equipment that we do.

I say again, had we left it to the military, what would be using today? would it be as suitable for the task?

It is all too easy for you to rubbish the dedication that those early units and crews put in. Too easy to accept the assurances that NPAS put out about minimum downtime. But again I challenge, - What do you mean by immediate cover. From where? How long will it take to be on task? How effective will it be when it arrives?

Frankly I take that with the same confidence that I receive assurances that the military, after all the cut backs, are just as capable of defending us as before.

By the way I am very impressed by the new Royal Naval Rowing boat, I saw it recently when I came into Portsmouth dockyard!

tigerfish

P.S. Whats the point? No one seems to care about the way this country is going now anyway.:mad:

tigerfish

[backtothebeat]

Originally Posted by SilsoeSid

Finally, as anyone 'in the know' knows, you never-ever, take the p£ss out of 'your' pilot

Seriously ???
That comment would get you at least a weeks worth of constant ribbing on its own..!!

What else is there to do on a quiet night or when grounded?? It's a national sport where I work!!


Don't you ever get fed up being constantly reminded of how unarmed you are in a battle of wits? :ok:

Silsoe I wasn't aware there was a battle going on..?
It's supposed to be a discussion..!

I'm assuming from your ill-informed comments that your not actually in the business, just a badly informed onlooker who's a bitter at not being allowed in for some reason. Feel free to leave unless you have something positive to contribute rather than petty back biting.

[Wagging Finger]

you never-ever, take the p£ss out of 'your' pilot

SS I think some people on here are taking this to literally, It's all good natured banter at the place I work, don't know what it's like where you are but I suspect it's more or less the same, the pilot's know their place :E and we TFO's know ours:8

Good natured banter makes the world go around, I would not want to work in a place where there is none.:ok:

And B2tB, I'm not 100% who SS is but from his comments I'm 100% sure he works on a busy unit.


:=

[timex]

When was the last time a Civilian Obs got out of the aircraft and arrested someone?

When was the last time a Police officer got out of the aircraft and arrested someone? Last week for one of the crew.

[Fortyodd2]

B2tB, if you'd been here longer than 4 days and 9 posts, you'd know exactly who Silsoe was, where he works and what he did in a previous "life". Time spent in recce is rarely wasted.

Timex "When was the last time a Civilian Obs got out of the aircraft and arrested someone?" 3 times since April 1st - but he was the DUEO for some time prior to being a "Civvy".

When was the last time a Police officer got out of the aircraft and arrested someone? 8 times since 1st April, last one on 26th Sept and he didn't want to come quietly!!:D

[backtothebeat]

Yes well if we can keep the trolls off the thread then people can get on with the business in hand. Silsoe should also realise that I may only have been posting a short time, but that doesn't mean I'm not "in the know" as he/she puts it. The thread title is TFO/Observers. If pilots have something to contribute then feel free if it's of interest, rather than personal barracking/trolling...!

[PANews]

Just to back up the Tigerfish comment about who got there first.....

First use of aircraft in police work - USA 1914

First police air support unit formed - Germany 1919

First use of rotary wing in police work - UK 1932

First use of helicopter in police work - UK 1952

First permanent use of helicopter in a police unit - Czech Republic 1953

First use of a movie camera for police purposes [rather than traffic] UK - 1975 [military Scout Marconi Heli-Tele in Ulster].

First civil use of a movie camera for police purposes [rather than traffic] UK - 1982

First civil use of a FLIR camera for police purposes [rather than traffic] UK - 1982 [they were seperate in those days].

Companies like Flying Pictures pumped out dual sensor cameras eventually and they first appeared on UK police aircraft in the West Country in the mid-late 1980s mainly promoted by PAS but I cannot date it exactly without researching.

Not sure I can plot the first mapping system and all the other gizmos so easily but with a few potential exceptions UK police have been up there and first users [and by inference the developing and testing to destruction customer] in the majority of instances far more often than some of you are admitting.

Do not decry those that went before you just because they are old gits and cannot get off the golf course to defend themselves - they were actually pretty good!:)

[J.A.F.O.]

TF

I clearly didn't explain myself clearly, I hope that I can clear up any misconceptions that you have about what I meant.

I cannot accept your comment about "your views are out of line with those who were actually involved! I was involved from 1984 onwards, when did you start?
I didn't mean to imply that you hadn't been involved in police aviation, I am well aware of your involvement and have spoken with you about it on a couple of occasions. By "out of line with the experience of those actually involved" (no who were in there), I meant those currently involved in units who have experienced police staff observers on staff.

It is all too easy for you to rubbish the dedication that those early units and crews put in. I didn't intend to and nothing in my post does so.

What do you mean by immediate cover. From where? How long will it take to be on task? How effective will it be when it arrives?
I didn't mention cover, I meant by the use of spare aircraft at the base.

I really do think that UK police aviation has played a small part in the development of FLIR and a tiny part in the development of communication systems and if you think otherwise, that's fine, maybe you're right.

[SilsoeSid]

Don't you ever get fed up being constantly reminded of how unarmed you are in a battle of wits?
Silsoe I wasn't aware there was a battle going on!

You really don't get this banter thing you go on about, do you :ugh:


If pilots have something to contribute then feel free if it's of interest, rather than personal barracking/trolling...!

How gracious of you :rolleyes:

You started it ;)
Silsoe,
I'm assuming from your ill-informed comments that your not actually in the business, just a badly informed onlooker who's a bitter at not being allowed in for some reason. Feel free to leave unless you have something positive to contribute rather than petty back biting.

And as for the 'cops' discussion, after carrying out a survey, my previous posts on the subject stand. :ok:

[tigerfish]

backtothebeat!

As you might expect;- as an ex Police ASU exponant, my sympathies fall naturally in your direction. But there are two vital lessons that you must learn, if your views are to be taken seriously.

(1) Never, - Never, call your colleagues "Cops". They proudly call themselves Police Officers, and there is over 250 years of tradition that lies behind that title. To call them "Cops" is an insult similar to calling a "Royal Marine" a marine. That is not to decry the marines in other countries, that call themselves such, but our "Royals" rightly believe they are something different, and I support them in that. UK Police officers are similarly different from "Cops" and long may that difference live on. ( But I have to say I am worried in that respect )

(2) Do not ever belittle or decry the service that countless numbers of great pilots have supplied to the Police Service since 1982. I consider myself priveledged to have worked with the likes of Mark Trumble, Steve Bidmead, John Ball, Chris Forrest, and others, and I remain in awe of how they took us forward, when we were really up against it in respect of vehicle crime and public order.

Yes! I too have indulged in light banter with them in the crew room at 0300, but never forget, - if it all goes wrong, - who carries the can!

Look guys, its all over for me now, I'm 68 shortly, and well over the hill, but that dosen't mean that I will ever stop carrying the torch for UK Police Aviation.

It was the best, and could still have been, but the current bosses of NPAS seem determined to rubbish it. But they will need to bury me first if they want to do it quietly!

tigerfish:=

[PANews]

I take a slightly different view to Tigerfish on the 'names we call ourselves' but thinking about it he is strangely right about 'Cops' ..... the Americans are 'Cops' but we never were..... not sure that would actually insult me any more than Pigs, Scuffers or a million others that assailed my ears over 30 years. Then again for both Tiger and I more than a decade has passed since we gave up the cloth so perhaps the pressure of US TV has taken its toll and 'Cops' it is?

That said there were lots of names we took on board as our own, and they were generational .... we started in the 1960s as 'Dixon' to some but I doubt that gets an airing these days; Plod perhaps being the modern one that sat easily alongside such as Trumpton for the fire brigade. Even pilots were downgraded to mere 'drivers' but I do not recall them getting hot under the collar over it.

Its not about names its about attitudes. :ouch:

[SilsoeSid]

As one that answers the phone as 'duty driver', I am looking forward to the days of NPAS, the 'National Pleb Air Service' ;)
PlebAir, serving a community near you... eventually :ooh:

Get your NPAS uniform requests in early, pcpleb.co.uk (http://www.pcpleb.co.uk)

Anyone from the Fed like to add this design to the T-Shirts collection?
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/PlebAir.png

[zorab64]

NPAS or not, they won't be able to stop banter - it's an integral part of the job, thank goodness :ok:
It might, however, be put on hold while everyone tries to make sense of the NPAS paper mountain! :eek:

Whilst the Civvy vs Police argument has been aired more often than one would like to mention, I hope posters will draw some solace from the fact that the officer on the ground has no idea who is crewing the aircraft, especially if s/he's getting a good service. Some on here forget that potential Observers, with Military backgrounds, have had instilled in them a highly professional attitude to work & service, along with a desire, & many skills, to search & catch (or destroy) the "baddies" that some Police would do well to emulate. The "pension behind them issue" shows a sense of jealousy or cynicism that should not have any bearing on the matter, although the ability to get rid of under-performing individuals is much more important, certainly from an HR point of view.

In addition, the small periods of downtime that NPAS predicts, as a result of spare aircraft, previously not available, could be well used for training; loaning to other units for professional improvement (out of area / differences / reducing the myth of useless "Civvy Obs" from those with entrenched views!); presentations to Ground Officers / Control Rooms; the list goes on. At a busy unit (1200hrs + per year, without spare aircraft), there is seldom time for these important, but invariably unachievable, "extras" as Officers are dragged back to the streets to infill holes left by overstretched local Forces, leaving little time to apply the polish to the aviation service we provide.

Some people need to grow up, smell the roses, accept compromise & realise that we can work with & for NPAS (even though we're having to cut to a lowest-common-denominator service at the moment, just to prove that there's a better way) to bring things back up to a world-class service that many of us have been operating, or striving for, for many years. Yes, it will be different, but so is everything else in almost every other walk of life. Let's do the best job we can do with the tools we've got, and work to persuade those who've never done it that, actually, those who've done it for a while have some pretty good ideas, and are also SPECIALISTS in the job they do - and should be rewarded appropriately as officers with more "specialist" skills than almost any other. I'm sure we'll get there, but it may be hard work - which never hurt anyone, did it? :ugh:

P.S. Like the badge, SS - do you do one with a 902?

[Fly_For_Fun]

Zorab64, I read with interest your post and agree with a great deal of what you say. Although you make no mention of motivation, feeling of self worth, will-co and can do attitudes, good will, etc. All of these have been eroded by the process that NPAS has gone through and the pressure placed on managers to deliver the perhaps undeliverable. Maybe focusing on just cash saved (and that is debateable) instead of the effect on the workers that will be asked to deliver, is a tactical error in my view.

[tigerfish]

Zorab, At the end of the day I guess you are probably correct and the service will shake down and make the best of a pretty bad job. Thats what it's always done, and I suspect what it will do now!

Not sure that I agree that the guys on the ground will not know the crews though, because from my experience both in the air and on the ground, the lads on the ground very quickly got to know the voices of the keenest air observers.

I can accept too, that some civilian air observers, especially the ex military ones are capable of doing a darn good job. But I have a natural resistance to trying to remove everything of a specialist nature from the Police. I go back to my point of; Where would we be now if 25 years ago some of us had not kept on pushing - hard for what we got? I repeat, the cash savings are not that great. It is a Police Aircraft, I fully accept that the pilot must, for a variety of reasons be a civilian. Probably the acceptable option might be to insist that just one of the observers provides the police presence.

FFF is also correct. Had NPAS dealt with this whole thing in a more sympathetic way right from the start, they would have taken the service with them and found the whole thing much easier. They preffered the mushroom factory style of management and it has not worked.

tigerfish

[Faithless]

:Ah Silsoe my mistake. Your not ex mil are you.. :ugh: If he only knew.

Silsoe was a WW1 Fighter Ace many moons ago. During the 1950's he hung up his boots and goggles when he observed a rare new flying machine with it's wings rotating above the fuselage.

It was at this moment in his flying career that he sold his soul to the rotary world ......Black Adder sketch was modelled on Silsoe.:E

Come on Boys and Girls this is all getting too serious. Let Pilots brag about how much they get paid. Let the Police continue to be stretched to breaking point and watch the military reduce to the size of a postage stamp.

Let's face it the current Government are shafting us all big time. It will soon be time to place up the sign saying "UK Closed for the unseeable future"

Good night all. :{

[Fly_For_Fun]

SS sounds like we had a similar up brining.

On another note I wonder if there will be a corporate NPAS Xmas do ?

[ShyTorque]

It was at this moment in his flying career that he sold his sole to the rotary world

Sounds a bit fishy to me....

[SilsoeSid]

P.S. Like the badge, SS - do you do one with a 902?

In the pipeline to accompany the wonderful 135, not only the noble 902, but also the willing 145, the almighty Augusta and irresistible Islander. However there will not be a badge with an unviable UAV or the treacherous Tecnam P2006T MMA :ok:

[Faithless]

Silsoe,

I missed this one!

I'm assuming from your ill-informed comments that your not actually in the business, just a badly informed onlooker who's a bitter at not being allowed in for some reason. Feel free to leave unless you have something positive to contribute rather than petty back biting.

Haha he really doesn't know you does he. Tis fun to watch you two bitch thou!:ok:

[zorab64]

FFF - I fear that can-do, motivation, self-worth etc were all things that may have been somehwat overlooked in the desperate drive to ensure things were in place for a politically-driven, and already delayed, 1st October.
Sadly the delay was caused, IMHO, by a decision to "let go", for a year, the only aviation expert the organisation need most, instead relying on the goodwill of a few busy people to provide gratis advice in their very limited spare time. There was a *mistaken* (*..* = substitute adjective of choice) belief that the Police had enough expertise to do the job without such experience which, now that it's back on-board, has been having to work all hours, and more, just to ensure a foot could be jammed in the door in time.

Although we're at the end, or the beginning (depending on how you look at this week in the annals of Air Support), there is still plenty of work to do to ensure that the door is opened wide enough to let the others in, or possibly out - although either seems to have been made more difficult by the mountain of admin that seems to have been piled behind it!

TF - thank you for acknowledgement of some points, although I would have to disagree that a keen voice will not necessarily be that of an Officer, any more than a Civvy, and the guy/gal on the ground will not care a jot who's providing it, if they're getting the service they need. As we've debated before, my views remain that a smattering of Civvy TFOs would do no harm, although I've never advocated complete civilianisation as, you're quite correct, just the knowledge of it would ensure credibility with the ground troops would evaporate in an instant.
However, if you can train a Police Officer to use specialist equipment s/he's never seen before in a specialist environment s/he's never worked in before, it should not be beyond the wit of man to train a professional aviator to pick up the vagaries of the Police job in the air - neither requires a degree. The military aviator has spent a career searching for, catching (& sometimes despatching) both goodies & baddies - the chase is in the blood, just as it is for the Police. The only hinderance is the pile of admin behind the door! :ugh:

[tigerfish]

Zorab,

That stuff behind the door, is probably Elephant droppings!

tigerfish

[zorab64]

Not sure of the species, but the analysis of substance is spot on! :ooh:

[morris1]

Of course what you get with a police officer TFO, is the fact that he/she, being an attested constable has worked a beat, has driven in a live pursuit, has chased suspects through gardens, has passed advanced driving/TPAC courses, has stood in the cold & contained premises awaiting dog handler / aircraft and indeed is very likely to have searched thru gardens/hedgerows with an a/c overhead..!
All these things, nice as they are to have in an observer are not strictly necessary, but they make for a much more balanced crew member for having these skills and experiences.

Arguably what's more important is that a police officer will have dealt with victims of crime face to face, will have dealt with the assault victim, the rape victim the robbery victim. They will have knocked on a door at 4am to tell someone their loved one has been killed in an accident, and then spent the next few hours helping them thru the aftermath. They are quite likely to have been a firearms Officer and brought weapons to bear on the streets of the UK.
Because of these things they have empathy, and know what expectations the public have of them, and what they want the police to do for them. You can sum it up with the word "duty".
Can you teach a "civilian" these things..?
Of course you can..!
You can teach patrol skills, search techniques, rules of evidence, PACE, powers of entry, TPAC rules, rules for the use of force, some basic law. You can even teach & instil a sense of duty to your staff I suppose.

This is happening across policing everywhere now in all sorts of roles.

The only issue is. Where does the line end. Where is the point where the role deserves a police officer to be in post and to be subject to the discipline procedures, rules, protection from industrial action, political activity and responsibility to the public that the office of constable brings.?
Where is the line whereby if you have teach so many skills to a civilian, they may as well be an attested Officer..!

And the point is, we are "policing" from the sky.

Personally I think the TFO role is doomed. Winsor will see to that if NPAS doesn't.

[SilsoeSid]

Coming to a T-Shirt near you soon;
pcpleb.co.uk (http://www.pcpleb.co.uk)

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/PlebAir.png

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/PlebAirMD902.png

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/PlebAir145.png

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/PlebAirA109.png

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/PlebAirBNIslander.png

[Coconutty]

morris1,

In your list of important things that an attested Police Officer brings to the role of TFO,
you forgot one very important one - which is that the experienced Police Officer will also have dealt, first hand, with many CRIMINALS,
and will have learnt, through personal experience, many useful facets of information that all go towards developing that sixth sense
known as the "Coppers Nose", which can't be measured, or even fully explained, but which is often invaluable in the air,
and which can't ( easily ) be taught - but is gained with grass roots Policing.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[morris1]

Coconuty.

Yes your right.
But it was 2am in my defence..

Your point is very valid tho about having people on board who have actually arrested criminals..!

[Fly_For_Fun]

Self adulation has lift off. :D

[J.A.F.O.]

FFF - I'm sorry if I ever doubted you that it would.

[morris1]

Don't worry FFF
If you work hard and keep trying, you too could become a police officer. Until then I guess you'll just be another ordinary person. ;)

[Coconutty]

He's just jealous ;)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Fly_For_Fun]

Of course I always bow to superiority. :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

I bet you cant find these with a normal search :suspect:

Vacancies (https://atsv7.wcn.co.uk/search_engine/jobs.cgi?owner=5027409&ownertype=fair&posting_code=614)
Closing Date 27 Jan 2013

Ref 98M - Sergeant - Base Manager - NPAS . Job Reference: 1304049 (https://atsv7.wcn.co.uk/search_engine/jobs.cgi?SID=amNvZGU9MTMwNDA0OSZ2dF90ZW1wbGF0ZT02NTcmb3duZXI 9NTAyNzQwOSZvd25lcnR5cGU9ZmFpciZicmFuZF9pZD0wJnJlcXNpZz0xMzU 4MDIyNTE3LTFiMDkwNmE1NzU0MDE0ZWU4YzBmNzhlY2VlZTc2MTgzMTJjOWR iOGU=)

Ref 99M - Constable - Tactical Flight Officer - NPAS . Job Reference: 1304033
(https://atsv7.wcn.co.uk/search_engine/jobs.cgi?SID=amNvZGU9MTMwNDAzMyZ2dF90ZW1wbGF0ZT02NTcmb3duZXI 9NTAyNzQwOSZvd25lcnR5cGU9ZmFpciZicmFuZF9pZD0wJnJlcXNpZz0xMzU 4MDIyNTE3LTFiMDkwNmE1NzU0MDE0ZWU4YzBmNzhlY2VlZTc2MTgzMTJjOWR iOGU=)

[SilsoeSid]

Vacancy reference numberRef 98MDivision/DepartmentWS Territorial Operations
Job DescriptionSECONDMENT TO WEST YORKSHIRE POLICE – POLICE SERGEANT

BASE MANAGER – NATIONAL POLICE AIR SERVICE (NPAS)
SOUTH EAST REGION – REDHILL BASE
Applications are invited from substantive Police Sergeants for a Base Manager post within the National Police Air Service (NPAS) at Redhill Aerodrome, Surrey. Redhill base will operate between 0800 – 0300 hours.

NPAS is a new air support service comprising the Police Air Support Units of England and Wales with West Yorkshire Police being lead Force. It was formed in October 2012 and provides all air support services without force boundaries. Because of this, aircraft and staff are required to operate across several force areas.

The successful candidate will perform Base Manager duties, ensuring high levels of performance of aviation assets, providing leadership and management support to the Tactical Flight Officers (TFO’s) and pilots operating within their scope of operation, and liaison with points of contact within local forces .

Additionally, Base Managers are required to act as police flight crew when required to provide resilience to the TFO staff, providing support to officers on the ground, assisting the pilot and offering advice and expertise to users. Because of this, Base Managers are required to qualify as a TFO.

Base Managers report directly to Regional Managers within the NPAS structure and are expected to attend management and performance meetings, and to undertake additional roles within NPAS beyond the Base Manger day to day role.

Applicants should have good interpersonal skills, demonstrate effective leadership and the ability to manage a diverse team. A high level of self-motivation is essential.

The selection procedure will include an Application Form, Assessment Process, Flight Testing, Interview, Basic Fitness Test and Medical. Initial training comprises a five week TFO Foundation Course beginning on the 7th May 2013.

Awareness days will be held at NPAS bases during January 2013 to enable prospective candidates the opportunity to find out more about the role of NPAS, Base Manager and Tactical Flight Officer posts. Candidates only need to attend ONE of these events.

The Assessment Process will be held during the week commencing the 11th March 2013. Candidates will need to be available for two consecutive days in that week (either 12/13, or 13/14). Details will be notified to candidates that are short listed.

Candidates who are successful in the assessment process will be required to undergo a flight test in the week commencing 2nd April 2013.

Upon successful completion of the flight test interviews will be arranged between 8th April and 19th April 2013.

As this is a secondment you will require permission from your current Force in order to be eligible to apply.

Completed application forms must be submitted by Sunday 27th January 2013. It is essential that candidates are available on the dates indicated above.

Please email NPAS HR Mailbox at [email protected] if you require any further information.

[SilsoeSid]

Vacancy reference number99MDivision/DepartmentWS Territorial Operations
Job DescriptionSECONDMENT TO WEST YORKSHIRE POLICE - CONSTABLES

TACTICAL FLIGHT OFFICER - NATIONAL POLICE AIR SERVICE (NPAS)

Applications are invited from Police Constables who have had their probation confirmed, for the post of Tactical Flight Officer (TFO) to create a succession plan within the National Police Air Service (NPAS).

Applications are invited from ALL forces and not restricted to forces currently or previously operating an aircraft.

Vacancies are expected to occur during 2013/14 at all NPAS bases listed below.

NPAS is a new air support service comprising the Police Air Support Units of England and Wales with West Yorkshire Police being lead Force. It was formed in October 2012 and provides all air support services without force boundaries. Because of this, aircraft and TFO’s are required to operate in several force areas in their region.

Successful candidates will perform Police TFO duties, acting as flight crew, navigators and systems operators in Police aircraft, providing support to officers on the ground, assisting the pilot and providing advice and expertise to users.

TFO’s operate at all NPAS bases located throughout the country, and work a variety of shift patterns according to where they work. Some NPAS bases operate 24 hours, and many 20 hours per day.

Applicants should have good interpersonal skills and the ability to work as part of a small team. A high level of self-motivation is essential.

Successful candidates will be posted to their selected NPAS base at the first opportunity. Those officers who are not immediately posted into vacancies will be required to maintain their competence by performing TFO duties on a minimum of two days per month at their selected base. Support from your home force is therefore essential to the success of your application.

The selection procedure will include an Application Form, Assessment Process, Flight Testing, Interview, Basic Fitness Test and Medical. Initial training comprises a five week TFO Foundation Course, and successful candidates will be allocated space on courses beginning on the 7th May or 9th September 2013.

Awareness days will be held at NPAS bases during January 2013 to enable prospective candidates the opportunity to find out more about the role of NPAS and the TFO. Candidates only need to attend ONE of these events.

The Assessment Process will be held during the week commencing the 11th March 2013. Candidates will need to be available for two consecutive days in that week (either 12/13, or 13/14). Details will be notified to candidates that are short listed.

Candidates who are successful in the assessment process will be required to undergo a flight test in the week commencing 2nd April 2013.

Upon successful completion of the flight test interviews will be arranged between 8th April and 19th April 2013.

As this is a secondment you will require permission from your current Force in order to be eligible to apply.

Completed application forms must be submitted by Sunday 27th January 2013.

It is essential that candidates are available on the dates indicated above. Please email NPAS HR Mailbox at [email protected] if you require any further information.


NPAS Base Locations

South East Region (Commenced NPAS Operations 1st October 2012)
RAF Benson
Boreham Airfield
Redhill Airfield
Wattisham Airfield/RAF Honington

North West Region (Commences NPAS Operations 29th January 2013)
Barton Airfield (Manchester)
Hawarden Airport (Nr Chester)
Rhuddlan
BAE Warton

North East Region (Commences NPAS Operations from April 2013)
Durham Tees Valley Airport
Humberside Airport
Newcastle Airport
Sheffield
Wakefield (Carr Gate)

South West Region (Commences NPAS Operations from July 2013)
Bournemouth Airport
Exeter Airport
Filton Airfield
Pembrey Airfield
RAF St. Athan

Central Region (Commences NPAS Operations from October 2013)
Birmingham Airport
Husbands Bosworth Airfield
Ripley (Police HQ)
Wolverhampton (Halfpenny Green Airfield)
Closing Date27 Jan 2013
LocationVariousEstablished grade/salaryConstable
Contracted hoursFull time

[Thomas coupling]

Has the decision been made yet about treating TFO's as a technical/specialist position, or will there still be the possibility of a mass walkout (from air support) by police observers due to pay and conditions?

[TheDog]

Hmmm...rumour has it that within days of the North West joining NPAS, one of the units had to suspend operations due to lack of TFOs due to sickness. On joining, two TFOs were transferred out and reliefs were no longer available.

Effective and efficient? My aarse!

The Royle Family - My Arse! - YouTube

[Wagging Finger]

within days of the North West joining NPAS

Thought the NW were yet to join, that region was put back until the end of January wasn't it?

[SilsoeSid]

If you care to read the adverts above;

North West Region (Commences NPAS Operations 29th January 2013)
:rolleyes:

[Inch high]

Re crew sickness problems, will cover be provided by other forces as has happened with last years riots?

Could there be a new training course to train up relief observers for covering sickness and holidays? Or will the UK follow the US who use one officer or a civilian to accompany the pilot each day.

If the Home Office standardise the aircraft it wouldnt be too difficult to jump from one cab to the other.

[Wagging Finger]

SS. I did read the advert, I was pointing out that some had not.

[MightyGem]

The Northwest joined operationally; ie, being tasked through the NPAS control room, using NPAS callsigns, operating the NPAS shift system and manning levels from Jan 4th. We come under NPAS from a legal point; ie, Ops Manual,PAOM etc from the 29th.

And yes, there was a manning problem in the first week.

Don't believe all you read in adverts.

[SilsoeSid]

Sorry WG, I must have misunderstood that question mark as being at the end of a question :rolleyes:


advert;
As this is a secondment you will require permission from your current Force in order to be eligible to apply.

Pretty unfair if ones force doesn't allow secondment.
The posts advertised above include some bases located in force areas where that force will not allow secondments!

We could end up with units with no 'local' TFO's.

Local unit, for local officers

[Wagging Finger]

That's a standard secondment agreement for Police Officers, your force must allow you to be seconded, some fail because of sickness or discipline.

Sadly as hard as I have looked I am unable to find a rhetorical or a ironic question mark so I used the standard one.:sad:

[SilsoeSid]

That's a standard secondment agreement for Police Officers, your force must allow you to be seconded, some fail because of sickness or discipline.

.. only if you can prove that it is a career progression secondment :confused:

[MightyGem]

will cover be provided by other forces
Yes, if they have spare bobbies who are willing to do it. Not so keen now that overtime is only time and a half.

[Thomas coupling]

Any guys in the trade - care to respond please? Are police observers being recognised for what they really are: professional technicians:ugh:

OR will there be a revolt:E

[SilsoeSid]

I wonder if the term flight crew, as used in both adverts, has been approved by the CAA and what the implications of that will be in regard to duty times etc :E

[morris1]

In answer to a few posts back, asking about the winsor 2 proposals to cut our pay. The short answer is no. It hasnt been resolved, and so far the news coming out of npas high command is, well.... actually there is no news.
All we've had is "we're working on it"... :*

As for secondments.. My force are now supporting applications. However we cant quite see where the vacancies are going to come from at our unit, until/if we all walk due to winsor.

Rumours from NW region abound, and have been mentioned on the other thread. Mainly that so far its a crock.. Not enough staff to make it work and the whole centralised dispatch thing also proving to be a barrier to common sense... A quote from a merseyside bobby "we dont bother asking for a helicopter anymore, takes too long to get here".

Anyway... Im sure it will all come good in the end. :}:}

[MightyGem]

"we dont bother asking for a helicopter anymore, takes too long to get here".
Spoke with a traffic bobby the other week. They had a pursuit and called for the helicopter. 15 minutes later, they were told it couldn't lift due to the weather.

He wasn't bothered about the weather, but the fact that it took 15 minutes to get the reply. In the old days, he'd have had it in 30 seconds.

[Coconutty]

MightyGem,

They had a pursuit and called for the helicopter. 15 minutes later, they were told it couldn't lift due to the weather.Are you able to say precisely where that delay came from ?

Is it correct that "in the old days", they would have called Air support directly from the Traffic car, but no longer have the ability do so ?

Was the delay :


at the Traffic Officers Local Control Room, who received the initial request from the Traffic Officer,
then had to transmit it ( by one of a variety of methods ) to the NPAS Control Room,
e.g. because they were already extremely busy dealing with the pursuit ( and probably other incidents too ) -
and didn't have the capacity to request Air Support from NPAS immediately, or,
at the NPAS Control Room end where the Despatcher receiving the request from the local Control Room
has to assess the task request, decide that it suitable for Air Support, work out where in the Country it is,
work out where the nearest aircraft is, then contact them - believing them to be deployable, or
due to the local aircraft not having updated NPAS control room
that they were not available due to the weather, or
where only certain areas covered by the aircraft are not accessible due to the weather,
the NPAS Despatcher did not have access to that ongoing situation, or
from the NPAS Despatcher after determining that Air support was not available,
in relaying that information back to the local Control Room, or
from the local Control Room, on receiving the information back from NPAS, not having the capacity
to process that information immediately ( due to workload as above - they are extremely busy
dealing with the ongoing pursuit ) and relay it to the Traffic Officer ?

Why, oh Why, oh Why, does it seem that NPAS are insisting that Police officers on the ground
who NEED Air Support IMMEDIATELY, can NOT contact the locally based aircraft directly ? :ugh:
( Remember that old phrase "a National Service delivering Air Support locally" :hmm: )

Surely when Air Support is needed IMMEDIATELY, as in the case quoted,
the air crews have built up enough of a reputation and expertise over the last 25 years or so,
to be trusted to make the decision as to whether to deploy under NPAS terms or not, and on receipt of a Direct Request,
will still have time to consult with NPAS Control and obtain authority to attend, while preparing to lift,
but before lifting - and with NO additional delay whatsoever.

This would be an excellent, and dare I say it MORE EFFICIENT use of the National Control Room,
who may be aware of a closer aircraft, e.g. already airborne and heading back to Base, or able to divert from a non urgent task etc,
that could arrive on scene SOONER than the locally based aircraft attending from base.

NPAS control would be aware of the incident and request SOONER than if the request was routed via the busy Local Control Room,
and the local aircraft or a more suitable response, would be despatched more quickly.

In this scenario, if the aircraft HAD been available, it seems quite likely that there would have been
an unacceptable delay in the aircraft arriving on scene.
( My personal interpretation of "unacceptable" being any amount of time longer than if the crew had been contacted directly ).

It is generally accepted that pursuits are dangerous, and that the danger is reduced the moment Air Support arrives,
by allowing following Police vehicles to drop back, reducing "pressure" on the fleeing driver,
with the Air Crew being able to provide an overview of the developing dynamic situation ( oncoming vehicles, red Traffic Signals etc etc ),
to the Police resources involved, in addition to tactical planning of how to resolve the incident.

Will it take a(nother) fatal "Polacc" before someone hits the RESET button here ? :ooh:

If such a tragedy should ever happen - Who might be held accountable in any subsequent Public Enquiry ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/CoconuttySad.jpg

[MightyGem]

Are you able to say precisely where that delay came from ?
No. Could be one or all or your bullet points.

Is it correct that "in the old days", they would have called Air support directly from the Traffic car,
They could have called us direct, but more than likely we would have picked it up from listening to various channels.

but no longer have the ability do so ?
Not allowed. := We can self deploy, without clearing it with NPAS Control, if we hear something on the radio but as we have 4 radios and about 30 talk groups in our area, it's just a matter of chance if we hear anything.

[Aerodynamik]

What is the NPAS charter response time for vehicle pursuits?

[morris1]

The clock only starts at take-off...
So it's actually "travel time".

NPAS say that incidents can be bumped up to first level at any time if necessary.

First level is 20 mins.
Second level 60 mins.

[doublesix]

In my 12 yrs as an observer from 1994 till 2006, I only saw Air Support Operations evolve for the better and generally high morale from pilots and cops. Now it's all gone down the pan (and my ex colleagues use different terms!!). How sad, and I'm glad I'm out. Good luck everyone trying to make it work.:mad:

[SilsoeSid]

Units only being contactable by telephone from Yorkshire, will be the most spectacular backward leap since Greg Louganis in the 1988 Olympics!

[tigerfish]

If morris1 is correct and NPAS record response times from the point of take off, that blows the whole thing out of the water!

The only real factor that counts, is the elapsed time since the incident that sparked the request took place.

i.e. If the incident was a bank robbery, and no one asked for the helicopter for 20 minutes, and then it took 10 minutes for the request to be actioned or passed between Control rooms. It matters little that the flying time is only 15 minutes. It is still 45 minutes since the incident happened! What do you think the chances are of success and the robbers are still hanging about to give the Police a chance? Yet NPAS stats would show only the 15 minute response time!

At the very least the clock needs to start running as soon as the request is made! How else can you test how well oiled is the response capability?
Or perhaps they don't want to know!

Checkout my post no 900 on the other NPAS thread!

tigerfish

[Art of flight]

Might be that NPAS are starting off with declaring the only measurable time that can be pinpointed as having known individuals responsible for it(the operational crew). I would hope that Bradford has in place it's own 'performance measuring' of how long it takes to receive information, make a decision, and call the nearest suitable crew. The rest is the old stuff of how long it takes the public to call in the police, the police to evaluate, send a unit, ask for air support etc...that was never timed anyway.

Sure as ever, the crew will be getting it if the bosses deem the 'response time to be too long (in their opinion).

I remember when we traded the 135 T1 for the P2+, start to lift time increased from 1:40 to 5:20, because of the PW engines and the VMS/role kit start up. Guess what? One very unhappy DUEO who was convinced the crews were slacking until we did some real time trials to convince him the aircraft he had bought just couldn't get airborne any quicker.

The T2 at the next nearest unit is a good 3 minutes quicker to get off the ground! One reason why operational crews should be involved in aircraft/kit purchase.

[SilsoeSid]

I remember when we traded the 135 T1 for the P2+, start to lift time increased from 1:40 to 5:20, because of the PW engines and the VMS/role kit start up.

:suspect: Mmmm, a little slower maybe, but I think that's a bit toooo much poetic license, and that's even if you added in the challenge/response pre take off checks, the rear crew getting in after the 'start fire-watch' and getting the clearance from ATC.

5:20!!!
Blimey...on some jobs (P2+) that would be the: brew in hand > on scene time :ok:


Guess what? One very unhappy DUEO who was convinced the crews were slacking until we did some real time trials to convince him the aircraft he had bought just couldn't get airborne any quicker.

RTFM
;)

One reason why operational crews should be involved in aircraft/kit purchase.

...ooo, pray tell, what would your crews have chosen?

[SilsoeSid]

The T2 at the next nearest unit is a good 3 minutes quicker to get off the ground! (than the P2+)

Wow! There certainly seem to be a few questions that need asking, questions that Art of Flight might regret bringing our attention to :eek:

[Art of flight]

Sid, No regrets, no poetic licence either. Unlike others on here I've got the relevant and recent experience of flying the 3 types I mention at the bases I mention and I quote only facts. To expand, both bases were in the same consortium, same rules, same challenge and response, same pilots and crew, everything the same apart from the aircraft. T1 ....no PWs, no AP, no magic role switch, and the ability to actually hover at a job a couple of minutes from takeoff. Not saying I didn't enjoy having the AP, trouble is though kids can fly them now.

Given the choice we'd have chosen TMs rather than PWs;)

I do aim to contribute to the thread and if that stirs a bit of emotion in others so much the better.

[Thomas coupling]

hear hear Art.

And to think I voluntarily got to within inches of doing what poor old Ollie is propping up now :eek:

What a crock of SH one T

[SilsoeSid]

Mmmm, well here are my P2+ facts;
No probs hovering on task just down the road minutes after take off, the magic role switch causes no delay even with a 'fast start' and not having an autopilot isn't an option even you could choose as an 'advisor'.

Having also flown all 3 (T1, T2 & P2+) I can't really see your problem with the marginal difference in start times. If your point is about reaction times, I'd rather have a camera that cooled down quicker ;)

More haste, less speed
:ok:

[MightyGem]

because of the PW engines and the VMS/role kit start up.
Well, the P&Ws take about 30 seconds or so longer to start than the TMs, but on a rush job, I've generally got the engines started before the Observers reach the aircraft, so that's not a problem. Why are you waiting for the VMS to start up?

[Coconutty]

Being mindful of not disclosing information that should not be disclosed ....
The good old Ultraforce II or even LEO (400?) used to be ready to use about a minute after powering up, (IIRC),
and whislt the imagery was not as good as that provided now by "later" more sophisticated and higher resolution cameras,
I don't think we EVER arrived on scene while still waiting for the camera to cool down and complete it's calibrations.:hmm:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Art of flight]

Sid, I have the good grace to accept your facts are different to mine.

I don't actually have a problem with different start times, as long as management accept that they are different, and don't beat up the crew when there is evidence that progress has caused things to be slower. The same situation saw the T2+ ordered without a UHF radio (now you'll know what base i'm talking about) which led to ATC imposing a 'telephone us before flying' regime adding more delay.

It was concerning me when the proposed NPAS 20 minute circles included start up times. They've now cleared that up. Perhaps the TFOs in SE region can gain some info from the Mids on how to get the role kit up and running quicker. As for me, I've hung up my flying gloves and I'm getting my coat (weather looks poor, some sort of hat may be required). Good luck to all.

Remember the ASU motto, Acrobat, diplomat, doormat!

[morris1]

The 20 minute circles on maps were always based on flying time.
They did NOT include any start up times and are based on still-air conditions.

[Coconutty]

The 20 minute circles on maps were always based on flying time

Correct - and is also based on the aircraft already travelling at cruising speed,
and in the direction of the task when the button on the stopwatch is pressed !

Sadly, that fact was never advertised to the Police Chiefs, Police Authorities and everyone else with an interest,
instead the facts were wrongly publicised as "97 ( or was it 98 ) % of the UK population will receive air support within 20 minutes".
:ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/CoconuttySad.jpg

[tigerfish]

When will you Guy's get real? The ONLY test must surely be to the guy on the ground! How long will it take from the moment the call is put in, to the moment the resource is overhead? Nothing else matters!

It really means that we are talking about elapsed time!

The 15/20 minute rule has always been about from the moment the incident happens!

When a criminal commits a crime, the only thing on his mind is to get away! He does not hang about just to see how efficient the police are. He just wants to go!

So that really is the only acid test. How long after the incident has happened can we be there?

So if it takes even as little as 5 minutes for the call to reach the ASU, then our effective time overhead the scene has already dropped by that amount. So now it takes us 5 minutes to get airborne? ( Too slow) That's already 10 minutes out of our effective time & depending on whether you work to the 15 or 20 minute rule you now have an effective ETA of only 5 or 10 minutes before the whole thing is a waste of time!

That is why I will argue until my dying day that NPAS was doomed from the moment that they reduced the fleet by one third!

Only one thing counts in effective Police Air support, and that is the time that it takes to get overhead the scene from the moment that the incident started! NOTHING else matters! If you are too late to be effective, then the entire cost of deployment has been squandered!

This all started as an exercise to save money! Didn't anyone realise that to save money you have to increase the effectiveness of what you are about! i.e. To catch more of the bad buggers! Not less!

tigerfish:mad:

[morris1]

The problem is tigerfish, NPAS aren't necessarily interested in catching bad guys. They will only be counting a/c attendances on scene. Not whether they actually found anyone...!

[SilsoeSid]

Another thing we are forgetting is that despite being called to a particular job, there are going to be times when there simply aren't enough people on the ground to deal with the offenders once we have located them. Our reaction times are irrelevant if there's no one there to feel a collar.

I bet one of the questions not asked at NAPS Comms HQ when accepting tasks is;
"What are your intentions once the offenders are located?"

Perhaps, due to the overall manning (or is it personing) level reductions throughout the forces caused by A19, no recruiting policies and general staffing cutbacks, we are reaching a stage when we may be too effective for our own good :ouch:


:8
By the way, from standing outside the P2+ after a pre flight walk-round, doors closed and doing a full FLM normal start with all the pre & post start checks, hyds, autopilot, 45 secs wait for VMS etc, it took 2:50 to be ready for skids off. If the occasion arises, I'll time an FLM 'quick start'! :rolleyes:

So I guess there was either a lot of wool pulling over eyes going on by Art of Flight for whatever agenda, or simply a matter of new aircraft familiarity, that produced that 5:20 startup for his DUEO :suspect:

I for one still remember the days of the Wallop Lynx 45 minute starts.
:ok:

[morris1]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I bid you farewell.

The current atmosphere surrounding Police Officers and social media has brought me to the conclusion that it is time to say goodbye to PPrune after 8 years.

Im not happy that I cant be "found" should the service I work for decide to come get me. Some quite high profile Officers (and one who I know personally) are currently on the verge of being investigated. So on that note I'm deleting my account as of tonight.
I'll check in every now and then as a visitor, however I wont be posting anything further.

I read today Jeremy Hunt talking about NHS whistleblowers, and saying "There has been a culture where people felt if you speak up about problems in the NHS you didn't love the NHS,"

It seems that if the Police Service are providing a poor service, we must keep it to ourselves..!

I do love my job. I love being a Police Officer and the flying part is just an added bonus that lets me do the Police work better.

I'll leave on this note.. that NPAS was doomed from the start, because it was born to cut costs, not provide a better service. So far its not even doing a very good job of cutting costs..!
Any successes it has along the way, will only ever be due to the hard work of those of us fighting through the weather, in the dark, to get to where we are needed, then using our skills and experience honed over the years, to get the results.
I am in NPAS, and will remain for now until/if winsor takes money from me. My one hope is that im still around to see something better rise from the ashes of NPAS after it has all been found out to be the huge white elephant it has already proved to be.

My opinions on NPAS from now.... are not to be publicised, for fear of retribution from the powers that be.

Goodnight, safe flying to you all.

[tigerfish]

And goodnight to you, - friend! Its very sad that in this so called free country of ours, that good men should fear retribution for disagreeing!

But I should know better than most that he is correct! For I lost my job for fighting the NPAS way of introducing the National element.

Morris1 NEVER give up the fight. By all means keep a low profile but remember, History will show who was right, and above all who was responsible for NPAS.

I too am closing out.

tigerfish:sad:

[Faithless]

:ugh:
This is all disgustingly sad. No one better than those of you serving are qualified in speaking out to what is wrong. A ships company does not mutineer if all is well!

I am not part of NPAS , Police etc but those of you that are and feel that you can no longer post with the fear of retribution then you are welcome to post via me.... If you need to get your point across.

after all this is a rumour network!

I have watched from the side lines on this forum, as well as some of my previous involvements at various ASU locations to what is sadly happening.

I'm no journo, NPAS spy, Police officer or Government MP type vermin but one that believes in the Police ASU and what it stands for as well as many friends amongst you.

Keep up the good work fella's and don't let this penny pinching Government ruin your day.:ok:

please PM me

[TheDog]

Yes, I heard the other day of a possible witch hunt coming. :( Sorry to see you guys depart.

[Fly_For_Fun]

RIP Prune thread.

[Thomas coupling]

Morris1 and Tigerfish, I know you both and am sorry it has come to this. Your contributions have enlivened an otherwise dull subject - that of cost cutting and reductions in public services.
Your posts will be missed, please keep an eye from a distance. Good luck to you both.


Senior Pilot: these two threads seem to be running in tandem. Is it worth combining them now? [This and the NPAS thread].

[ShyTorque]

Whatever happened to free speech?

I'm very glad I'm out of it. It was always obvious to anyone with any experience of air support that this (purely cost cutting) plan couldn't provide an improvement in service. Once key assets are removed, how could any system work better?

IMHO, it always was a poorly disguised smoke and mirrors exercise. :(