Plane missing en route YCAB? [Archive]

RenegadeMan

2nd Oct 2012, 06:07

I've been following the thread comments here plus reading numerous news media reports. As usual with these things it's hard to establish what's actually happened. Looking at Monto on Google maps it appears to be approx 300 klms as the crow flies from Caboolture (so 162 NM approx). The consistent line that's in most of these news stories is that they left Monto just after 11am and were scheduled to arrive at Caboolture at 2:15pm. Assuming the departure was say 11:15am that's three hours to travel 162 NM! I don't know what speed VH-UXG cruises at but I'm pretty sure it would be faster than 54 knots so either this ETA YCAB has been misreported or it was actually the SARtime (to be cancelled by).

Also there's mention of the pilot contacting a Channel Nine helicopter pilot but no indication that he was able to indicate what his last known position was. Morno says above Sounds like the poor bugger just couldn't seem to hold her straight. His heading was all over the place which would suggest he was flying away from track or wandering, perhaps in circles. If he was in cloud and struggling you'd expect he would have maintained his heading at least, but perhaps he's had an instrument failure too and if it was something like the DG (if he has one) rolling or the compass jammed then even more confusion would have ensued.

Also there are varying reports of the time that the ELT was activated. AMSA are reporting on their website 1:30pm. Brisbanetimes.com.au are reporting it was at 2:45pm. Constantly mentioned is that the signal "was lost a short time later" but no specifics on whether this was 30 seconds, 5 minutes or 30 minutes.

I'm sure the search personnel have listened to the ATC tapes to see if there are clues or indications that could help. The 540 sq klms being mentioned in the news articles is a very big area when it's densely forested and it will be very hard to find if it's dropped through the canopy. Anyhow if anyone can comment or enlighten on these questions that would be helpful to try and understand what's happened:

1. Would it really have taken "just after 11am" to 2:15pm to fly from Monto to YCAB?
2. What speed does VH-UXG cruise at?
3. What would the endurance have been ex Monto?
4. Was the ELT fixed (with auto trigger after an impact) or a handheld unit that Des would have set off manually?
5. Did the aircraft have a GPS or does Des carry a hand-held unit with him?
6. Does anyone know how long the ELT signal was being received before it went silent?
7. There's constant mention in the media of Des being a very experienced pilot but potentially he's not IFR rated (given his aircraft looks to be very much a VFR only platform) nor has much experience to fall back on in IMC conditions (pure speculation on my part). Does anyone know what capabilities he has?

My prayers and best wishes to the pilot and passengers, their families and friends. It doesn't look good and if he was in cloud and struggling to "hold her straight" we all know what the outcome of that is likely to have been.

Ren

flying-spike

2nd Oct 2012, 06:23

The people that need to have an answer to those questions probably already has them. I suspect if anybody did answer your questions that the information would be distorted and sensationalized and appear shortly after in the media.

Lets not speculate on the fate of these people no feed the hungry media Instead spare a thought for their families and friends. If you really need to have your thirst for knowledge quenched go up to Maroochydore and help in the search and hopefully rescue. If you can't do that, donate to support to the SES or tell a policeman, a nurse or a Salvo that you appreciate the job they do. They are the ones that face the grim reality of these situations.

RenegadeMan

2nd Oct 2012, 06:33

No media here Flying Spike. Just another fellow pilot wanting to know what's gone wrong. Perhaps some of the answers to my questions will help someone with an idea as to where they might be (i.e. The Stinson found by O'Reilly sort of situation)

gtseraf

2nd Oct 2012, 06:51

I had the pleasure of a flight around the Brisbane area a few years ago with Des, my thoughts are with the family, really praying for good news on the search.

flying-spike

2nd Oct 2012, 06:53

Even if you are not media the one thing they are reasonably good at is trolling sites like this to pick up any scrap that may be proffered as "fact". Unfortunately they are not to good at sticking to the truth and maintaining "journalistic integrity".
In a former career in Flight Service I had the misfortune of having been stood down from air-ground for a shift while the tape was reviewed after "a credible source" said I had ignored calls on HF from a lost aircraft between Cairns and Mount Isa several years ago. The source said he heard repeated calls that were loud and clear however I did not answer. While the tape was being replayed I assisted with preparation of the search and went out as an observer. It turned out the aircraft crashed into the hills outside Cairns a few minutes after takeoff and the aircraft that the source "heard clearly" was a different callsign that I was in comms with but the source could only hear one side of the conversation.
My point is lets not dabble in speculation. Those that need the information will already have it. Misinformation and morbid curiosity can actually hinder the search.

RenegadeMan

2nd Oct 2012, 07:34

Fair comments Flying Spike. I do remember that Cairns crash you mention (if it's the one I'm thinking of the investigation found the VTC or WAC current at the time was understating the altitude of the mountain the aircraft crashed into....not that this was the only factor). That must have been a difficult time to go through such a thing.

Anyhow, I understand what you're saying. Not trying to be morbid or create "facts" that some in the media would then put out there without verifying whether they're really a fact or not. I'm also aware that some people in the media wade through posts on here and grab stuff which they just repeat without cross checking.

bentleg

2nd Oct 2012, 07:36

Flightaware shows two parallel semi circular tracks by VH-PPQ (Dornier search aircraft) over some serious tiger country. Looks like it returned to Maroochydore just before 5 PM.

Dangly Bits

2nd Oct 2012, 10:11

Does anyone know if Ray V and his wife were on board?

Disregard! Just read the updated Courier Mail.

DB

tail wheel

2nd Oct 2012, 11:35

olderairhead

2nd Oct 2012, 11:38

tail wheel, thanks for the intervention. (and censorship)

This one is too close to home.

ForkTailedDrKiller

2nd Oct 2012, 11:59

You don't need a crystal ball to see the obvious.

The truth can be painful!

Dr :8

CHAIRMAN

2nd Oct 2012, 12:36

Bentleg, after the Dornier departed, OMM maintained overhead comms for the search helos until just after dark..........still no sign.
Thanks to the EMS and all the helo crews for their efforts. It must have been a very long day, and even longer with the disappointment of no positive outcome despite their concerted efforts.
It's obvious the SAR organisers are doing everything they possibly can.
Lets hope for some success tomorrow.

A37575

2nd Oct 2012, 12:37

If he was in cloud and struggling you'd expect he would have maintained his heading at least

No way. If he was IMC (cloud or reduced visibility with no visible horizon), then within seconds his heading would be all over the place and soon after he would be in serious trouble. If the aircraft did not have an AH and only a Turn and bank Indicator, then even the most experienced instrument rated pilot wouldn't last long in cloud unless he was in current practice at limited panel I/F.

Very few instrument rated pilots operating light general aviation twins ever bother to hop into a synthetic trainer and practice instrument approaches with the AH inoperative. Many cannot be bothered to practice limited panel manoeuvers in a ground trainer, either because of the perceived cost of hiring the machine or most probably because they know they will make a fool of themselves and crash. Head in the sand syndrome.

slackie

2nd Oct 2012, 20:09

This one's too close to homeActually, ever accident is "too close to home" for someone, and they may be reading any thread!

frigatebird

2nd Oct 2012, 21:21

No crystal ball here.. but, To Me.. it would seem that fuel is at the heart of it, as it is in many similar situations like Norfolk Island (and Bellona Island in '78 when I was talking to the ex-New Guinea pilot as he was turning back), so the questions asked by Renegade are what any pilot would want to know. If it is o.k. for morno, xxx and Jaba to comment, then it is equally o.k. for anyone. Do we hope to learn anything from this, or is it 'to close to home' for some? Loved the look of that Red Plane and snapped it a few times, but when I saw where the pilot sat with very little fuselage in front of him for a horizon/attitude reference in marginal vfr conditions, and the basic '30's layout of the few instruments, thought at the time that it was a fine-weather only fun plane.

Wally Mk2

2nd Oct 2012, 22:05

Oh dear this is such a sad event unfolding.It would bring a tear to every aviator if they found them all alive just awaiting rescue but it doesn't look like that's going to be the case sadly;-(.

Remember folks that this A/C & many like it where often faced with this same situation back in that era with pilots having far less experience than perhaps what we have here today. Low cloud, low performance machines unable to out climb deteriorating wx conditions all make for a very high risk event.
Flying in itself is inherently dangerous but it's the area beyond the cross-over point of acceptable risk that's always being challenged.

Obviously the pilot didn't take off with the intention of getting in a peril-is situation but experience is the single key to avoid these sad outcomes. Am sure we've all pretty much found ourselves somewhere wanting to be somewhere else when it comes to aviation so when these events happen & there will be more you can guarantee it lets all hope that we can learn from it/them so we don't find ourselves in the same situation.
The search must be very frustrating. One scenario here could be that the plane went into the think overhead canopy in a steep decent taking out the upper heavy foliage branches of the tall trees as it careered on down towards the forest floor bringing those same branches down atop the wreckage essentially camouflaging it, a situation that has had many a searcher over the years straining their eyes to see thru that vegetation.
Gods speed to the rescuers:ok:

Wmk2

4Greens

2nd Oct 2012, 22:23

Pilots in that era could fly with a limited panel. Its modern pilots who have a problem.

ForkTailedDrKiller

2nd Oct 2012, 23:33

The aircraft is missing and has not been found.
No one knows what occurred or whether the pilot and passengers survived.
To all those with fabulous crystal balls, please refrain from idle, ludicrous, wild speculation until the full and true facts are known.

None of the above will change the ultimate outcome. However, if discussion of the possible senario(s) that have resulted in the current circumstance makes one pilot rethink their risk assessment, then some good will have come out of this tragedy.

Dr :8

Lodown

2nd Oct 2012, 23:36

Having spent a fair bit of time flying VFR in southern Qld, I feel a pit in the stomach for the pilot and passengers. Do enough VFR and pilots soon work out where they can squeeze through during periods of cruddy weather. That area is just a huge trap in bad weather, particularly with a SE flow. The clouds stick to the hills and have ragged bases and there is just no safe way through the hills. VFR flights to the south have to be planned coastal or inland via Kingaroy and if the weather is really bad, then Kingaroy is out of action too and the pilot on the inland leg has to come south of Toowoomba before turning east. On the coastal side, the low cloud in combination with the higher ground around Gympie and Nambour really pushes the VFR pilot right to the coast. There are simply no shortcuts. Must be extremely difficult for the searchers. Hopefully the aircraft occupants are okay and just waiting to be found.

splitty

3rd Oct 2012, 01:09

In Feb 1962 Brian Chadwick flying his DH Dragonfly with 5 pax. dissappeared while flying from Christchurch to Milford Sound. Unfortunatly No Sightings where ever of that Aircraft to this Day.........Very Sad. Hope this is not the same outcome..

onetrack

3rd Oct 2012, 02:45

I believe Wally Mk2 is right on the nail. With police and search authorities now in possession of information from credible eyewitnesses on Bella Creek Rd - who sighted the Dragon circling low over a valley just N of Lake Borumba, then ascending into heavy cloud, just before the reported disappearance time - the scenario is screaming to me, of a CFIT into steeply rising terrain on a ridge surrounding that valley.
No doubt the police and search team leaders have taken this scenario on board, and have adjusted search tactics accordingly.

I'll hazard a guess at this scenario. Des realised he was flying into dangerous IMC and needed to put down quickly. He sighted the cleared valley floor through a break in the murk, and descended to check it out for landing potential. A couple of circles showed nothing suitable for a forced landing.

So, in increasing cloud and perhaps even a rapidly-lowering ceiling, he set off the EPIRB, and aimed at what he thought was the valley outlet, whilst firewalling the throttles for maximum RoC, knowing full well he needed height, and lots of it.
However, flying blind, he picked the direction of one of the sizeable ridgelines that surround the valley, and the leisurely RoC of the Dragon was inadequate to clear the valley ridgeline, and he impacted the ridgeline in steeply rising, heavily wooded terrain, that has a thick canopy.

The impact would have been at a upward angle, roughly equivalent to the angle of the maximum RoC - and the Dragon tore through the canopy, and largely disintegrated upon impact with very large hardwoods at high speed.

There would be little major structural sections left, perhaps only a major section of the fuselage.
The impact point would not be visible from above, it will only be visible to observers flying along the face of the ridgeline, and looking out horizontally at the steep terrain.

This would be the reason why the search so far has found nothing. Observers would perhaps have been imagining an impact downwards from a falling aircraft that they think has run out of fuel - when the impact has been upwards at full throttle.
The impact would have possibly destroyed the EPIRB, thus the short period between activation and the cessation of the signal.

Ramjet555

3rd Oct 2012, 03:05

I'm in Canada but had to make a few calls.
First the Dornier is not searching, its doing Radio Monitoring
believe it or not.

The Helicopters are doing a great job,
all very carefully detailed search areas that
they are slowly working through
and apparently going from around
the Bella Creek area where it was last spotted.

Can anyone put some times on when it was spotted circling
for "half an hour" and when Des was talking to BN Radio?

Ramjet

Ex FSO GRIFFO

3rd Oct 2012, 03:41

Onetrack,

Re yr 'With police and search authorities now in possession of information from credible eyewitnesses on Bella Creek Rd - who sighted the Dragon circling low over a valley just N of lake Borumba'...

Are these 'confirmed sightings'..??

Source please??

spinex

3rd Oct 2012, 03:47

From radio traffic it sounds as if wreck sighted. Going by the co-ordinates I copied, very close to the last sighting referred to above.

VH-XXX

3rd Oct 2012, 04:10

If those coordinates are correct that are being sent around, it's here:

My link was incorrect:

deg

s26.27.33 e152.19.30

mcoates

3rd Oct 2012, 04:23

Just 2 kms from an airfield !

slackie

3rd Oct 2012, 04:24

Taken back in '09 when we visited Caboolture Airfield... a grand old lady!
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/9433_173517516562_7959251_n.jpg

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/75616_10151257539956563_1555386408_n.jpg
Hardly an IFR cockpit?!

onetrack

3rd Oct 2012, 04:26

Griffo, numerous press reporters interviewing police, said that the police stated that they had credible witnesses for the sighting near Bella Creek Rd.

It's all over the media now ...

Wreckage of missing vintage plane found near Lake Borumba, west of Imbil | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/des-porters-vintage-bi-plane-spotted-in-thick-cloud-on-afternoon-it-went-missing/story-fncvk70o-1226486865551)

VH-XXX - Your co-ordinates appear to show a tree plantation at that location?

mcoates - Yes, and I'd guess it's highly likely Des knew of that airfield location, and was trying to find it?

Ex FSO GRIFFO

3rd Oct 2012, 04:46

ABC Radio (720 PH) says report 'just in' - reporting wreckage sighted on the banks of Borumba Dam by a 'charter acft' engaged in the search - said to be a 'high impact crash'....

That is all so far....

Thankyou Onetrack...

mcoates

3rd Oct 2012, 04:46

AERIAL SEARCH LOCATES MISSING AIRCRAFT IN SOUTH-EAST QUEENSLAND
The search for a missing aircraft in south-east Queensland has been suspended following the
confirmed sighting of the wreckage this afternoon.
An AGL Action rescue helicopter sighted the red biplane north of Borumba Dam before 2pm.
The search team has confirmed there are no survivors.
Queensland Police are on the scene and continuing further investigations.
The Australian Maritime Safety Authority would like to thank those involved in the search and
members of the public for their input.
Media Enquiries

tail wheel

3rd Oct 2012, 05:01

Courier Mail is reporting a tragic end:

No survivors in crash of missing vintage plane found near Lake Borumba, west of Imbil | The Courier-Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/wreckage-of-des-porters-vintage-bi-plane-spotted-on-ridge-near-in-thick-cloud-on-afternoon-it-went-missing/story-e6freoof-1226486865551)

bogdantheturnipboy

3rd Oct 2012, 05:01

Terrible news, there are no survivors

HootSuite Photos | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=424501374264610&set=a.401015423279872.81340.114267701954647&type=1&theater)

onetrack

3rd Oct 2012, 05:19

Here's an aerial view of the region. Fearful country to traverse, flying VFR into IMC. This pic was taken on a good day, no doubt.

Panoramio - Photos of the World (http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#view=photo&position=60&with_photo_id=72929370&order=date_desc&user=484122)

Kudos to the SAR men and women who have worked long, difficult and largely thankless hours. It's sad that the eventual find is so grim, but at least they were found, thanks to the unstinting efforts of many people.

VH-XXX

3rd Oct 2012, 05:27

The aircraft crash site was initially located using mobile phone technology - one of the mobiles on board was still operating - and then a helicopter crewman sighted the wreckage this afternoon.

Interesting.

So much for the non-GPS ELT.

spacesage

3rd Oct 2012, 05:30

More than likely technology on the AMSA Dorniers. Both were in the area today.

blackhand

3rd Oct 2012, 05:33

All the evidence currently available would appear to point to an "avoidable" accident! Let the usual shullbit begin

onetrack

3rd Oct 2012, 05:34

All the evidence currently available would appear to point to an "avoidable" accident!

FTDK - Aren't nearly all aircraft crashes avoidable? There but for the grace of God, go most of us. We've all made bad judgement calls, and some of us have survived by more arse than class, and some of us haven't.
Des obviously made some bad judgement calls, we'll never know what was driving him, to press on in deteriorating WX conditions.
One thing is for sure - only those who know WX conditions very well, and study developing WX intensely, between departure and destination, are the ones who are most likely to survive and avoid trouble.
The important thing is to drop all other priorities, no matter how important, and land quickly when you run into conditions which exceed you and your aircrafts capabilities.
All too often, pressing engagements, tight schedules, and other daily demands assume a priority over the major priority - that of reaching your destination safely, in one piece.

markis10

3rd Oct 2012, 05:35

The mobile tracking would have had to have come from the telco, the Dorniers would not be capable of tracking a non discrete digital emission and then triangulating it.

owen meaney

3rd Oct 2012, 05:36

Mr Porter(RIP) donated a lot of his flights to RFDS, a word of appreciation from them would not be remiss

Max Tow

3rd Oct 2012, 05:38

FTDK:
Your insensitivity is appalling - show some respect for our fellow aviator. How about a first reaction of condolences to those involved rather than your smug judgement & smiley icon?

slackie

3rd Oct 2012, 05:46

I've said this before...

There are 4 types of pilots
1. those that heed advice of not pressing on beyond their ability,
2. those that do press on and, more though luck than good management, survive to tell the tail and learn from their mistake
3. those that do press on and don't survive,
4. those that are yet to wind up being in a position that will define them in one of the first 3 categories!

I'm definitely a "2":O, and unfortunately I've known too many "3"s in my time.:{

A tragic end.

Condolences to all involved.

blackhand

3rd Oct 2012, 05:59

Some are destined to die with their boots on and some fade slowly gasping their last in a lonely hospice.
A life well lived Mr Porter RIP

Elfatness

3rd Oct 2012, 05:59

In FTDK's defence, he did already give his condolences in an earlier post that was removed.

But yes a sad time for the industry as a whole. Thoughts are with the families of all on board :(

gileraguy

3rd Oct 2012, 06:03

Black hand

What about the pax?

Elfatness

3rd Oct 2012, 06:06

No survivors in crash of missing vintage plane found near Lake Borumba, west of Imbil | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/national/wreckage-of-des-porters-vintage-bi-plane-spotted-on-ridge-near-in-thick-cloud-on-afternoon-it-went-missing/story-fncynjr2-1226486865551)

No Good :(

Dora-9

3rd Oct 2012, 06:14

RIP mate, it was a privilege to know you.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Blithering/dragon-4.jpg

blackhand

3rd Oct 2012, 06:19

What about the pax? They too had lived long and fruitful lives, my condolences to their families and friends RIP

RenegadeMan

3rd Oct 2012, 06:39

What a very sad outcome. I didn't know Des but I've seen his plane before. He'd clearly touched a lot of people with his goodness and to all those people that are feeling so low right now, I guess we'd all do well to remember him for all that he was and be thankful to have had someone so passionate about aviation in our experience. The Des Porter's of this world bring colour and life to many, many people. Think of all those kids that that would have marvelled at that beautiful red Dragon. And all those older people whose hearts would have been warmed by the appearance of something so special from a bygone era. That he took an aircraft that had been associated with such family tragedy and turned it into a wonderful sight we've all been able to enjoy all these years is a testament to his determination to remember his father and his brother who perished in the crash in 1954.

I'm sure he, his wife and his best friends that have perished will be sorely missed.

Good work to the hundreds of people involved in the search. It was always going to be unlikely they'd be found alive and well; but at least they were found and this hasn't gone on for years like the NZ incident mentioned above or the Cessna VH-MDX that disappeared near the Barrington Tops in 1981 and has never been found.

I think what Slackie writes below is very true and I've had experience with his number 2 scenario as well. I personally think we all (us, CASA, AOPA, the industry) need to do so much more work on helping pilots strategise around making plans that involve taking passengers on cross-country trips over high ground VFR. I believe there's just so much more skill required on the whole about setting up fall-back options and briefing your passengers in advance that you may need to cancel a flight altogether and get them back days late (or that they may have to make their own way home on occasions). I can imagine some of the ways this trip up to Monto would have played out and some of the pressures Des would have been under, which on a beautiful day, wouldn't have been an issue, but on this day potentially added to this accident.

My deepest condolences to all the families impacted and people in the aviation community that knew Des and his wife well.

Ren

Trojan1981

3rd Oct 2012, 07:16

The mobile tracking would have had to have come from the telco, the Dorniers would not be capable of tracking a non discrete digital emission and then triangulating it.

Indeed, telco technician jet'd in yesterday afternoon. Nothing to do with the Dornier.

ramble on

3rd Oct 2012, 08:36

I only mention this for the inexperienced (or foolhardy) please dont flame me...add your tips if you wish

In your toolbox, if (heaven forbid) you ever get yourself in this position (in cloud, in a VFR aircraft, scared and disoriented) where your immediate future looks like a loss of control and a high speed spiral into the ground;

1. Select throttles to idle.
2. Slowly trim full nose up.
3. Let go of the yolk.
4. Keep a constant heading with your feet - the rudder.

And pray the you get visual before you hit the trees. Practice it at height in your light aircraft in VMC.

I see a compass in his cockpit another solution would have been to DR east to the ocean and let down slowly and carefully.

bentleg

3rd Oct 2012, 08:57

another solution would have been to DR east to the ocean and let down slowly and carefully.

Only works if you have altitude to start with (which might have been lacking if he was trapped in a valley).

onetrack

3rd Oct 2012, 10:08

Only works if you have altitude to start with (which might have been lacking if he was trapped in a valley)

That appears to have been precisely his problem, and it looks like I was pretty close to spot-on with my projected scenario, that I posted in post #56, about 4 hrs before the wreckage was spotted.
All the indications are that the impact point is in terrain sloping at around 35°-40°, and that the Dragon was doing a high RoC at substantial speed. The terrain is so steep, the SAR choppers couldn't land at the actual crash site.

http://i47.tinypic.com/24y1r2b.jpg

(pic courtesy of Jack Tran/The Australian)

frigatebird

3rd Oct 2012, 10:16

Very sad outcome. Condolences to the relatives of all aboard.
Thanks to the searchers and technicians for their sterling efforts.
Thanks Slackie for the photo of the panel, had more instruments there than I had recalled (looked like a mounting for a GPS too), but the layout wouldn't have helped much while looking back and forth trying to get visual again.

Capt Fathom

3rd Oct 2012, 11:35

and it looks like I was pretty close to spot-on with my projected scenario, that I posted in post #56, about 4 hrs before the wreckage was spotted.
All the indications are that the impact point is in terrain sloping at around 35°-40°, and that the Dragon was doing a high RoC at substantial speed. The terrain is so steep, the SAR choppers couldn't land at the actual crash site.

Truly amazing detective work from that one photo. :rolleyes:

Come on guys, give it a rest!

outnabout

3rd Oct 2012, 11:36

Dear God!!! Somewhere, children / friends / mates are still reeling from the news that there are going to be 6 empty seats at Xmas this year.

I see no need for a media outlet (or Pruner) to post a photo of the accident site while the occupents are still present.

One day, it could be your (or my) family......

Oh, and to those people speculating already about the cause? I realise you may have squillions of hours on this aircraft type / weather / location - a bit of respect, please. Would it kill you to keep your comments to yourself for a couple of weeks at least??

Another one of our community now flies with blue skies & tail winds....forever

VH-XXX

3rd Oct 2012, 12:00

Posting a photo from the Australian newspaper is not in bad taste and I'm sure many would disagree with you on that one. Millions have already seen it or will see it tomorrow.

Jabawocky

3rd Oct 2012, 12:17

outnabout,

Some of their friends, me included, are in disbelief about how he found himself in that situation.

The accident happened right off my right wingtip, at about 30 miles to my west. I know what it was like at the time. It was awful on the ranges.I was in VMC.

If others, youngsters mainly can learn from this, all the better. We all have a fair idea what went wrong. The 178 seconds training video is proved once again.

As a friend of theirs, I find it almost impossible to believe they got sucked in. Makes me feel what hope do I have in this world when 3 of my mates this year from YCAB alone have died, and not one was a cowboy who you expected to crash an aeroplane. They were all conservative professionals in aviation.

When is a suitable time? 2 minutes, 2 hours? 2 days? 2 weeks? 2 months? 2 years? never? We need to talk some time.

The sad thing is none of these accidents are new. They are old, and repeated many times.

As Dora-9 said above,
RIP mate, it was a privilege to know you.

Mates, John included.
"DITTO"

To add to Dora's post above, I feel like including this as a tribute to Des, Kath, John and Carol, (not sure if Les and Janice were there), but given you guys were just over my shoulder, and like so many events, you made it all possible and gave so much to so many, this song is for you. RIP my friends.
I dreamed a dream - YouTube

There was a time when men were kind
When their voices were soft
And their words inviting
There was a time when love was blind
And the world was a song
And the song was exciting
There was a time
Then it all went wrong

I dreamed a dream in time gone by
When hope was high
And life worth living
I dreamed that love would never die
I dreamed that God would be forgiving
Then I was young and unafraid
And dreams were made and used and wasted
There was no ransom to be paid
No song unsung, no wine untasted

But the tigers come at night
With their voices soft as thunder
As they tear your hope apart
As they turn your dream to shame

He slept a summer by my side
He filled my days with endless wonder
He took my childhood in his stride
But he was gone when autumn came

And still I dream he'll come to me
That we will live the years together
But there are dreams that cannot be
And there are storms we cannot weather

I had a dream my life would be
So different from this hell I'm living
So different now from what it seemed
Now life has killed the dream I dreamed.

Homesick-Angel

3rd Oct 2012, 12:28

First of all condolences to all friends and family of the pilot and pax. I couldn't begin to fully understand how hard this time must be.. But ..

A cornerstone of this site is the rumor mill and speculation. The fact that just one of us may survive out next marginal flight because of the speculation is the key, and in my opinion is one of the few truly useful aspects of the site..

If it were one of my friends or family and it may well be one day, I would stay right away from here until some time had passed.

outnabout

3rd Oct 2012, 12:30

I stand corrected, Jaba. Please accept my apologies.

I fail to see what publishing a photo of the crash site teaches us (ok, me) without a supporting set of facts to highlight the circumstances that caused this.

Once upon a time, I wouldve said wait for the ATSB report but since Norfolk Island & Capt Cleo, I have sincere doubts of how factual these are.

aroa

3rd Oct 2012, 12:57

Dora 9. Beautiful air to air portrait of the pilot and his magnificent machine....alas.
Tragic that we will not see them again.

Posting of the crash site picture.. freely seen on TV.. should be a sober lesson for all us VFR folk to note carefully and digest. Would I do that? Could I do that?
As some circumstances prevail, who's to say what one might do under pressure, that may lead to a fatal outcome. How often have we read about it in the crash comics. There but for the grace of...etc.

One thing is for sure, when the wx craps out, better to be down here having a cold beer, than up there having a cold sweat.

RIP all.

VH-XXX

3rd Oct 2012, 13:58

At my airport bar there is a photo-frame with words to the effect of:

The least experienced press on, whereas the more experienced turn back to join the most experienced whom never left the ground in the first place.

- Author unknown

A37575

3rd Oct 2012, 15:05

Pilots in that era could fly with a limited panel. Its modern pilots who have a problem

I fully agree. Looking at the instrument panel layout, the Dragon did have an AH as well as other flight instruments including a large Turn and Slip Indicator. . Enough to keep you alive in cloud or poor visibility if you were in current practice. The two hours (or is it five?) needed on simulated IMC for the PPL is not enough to last you many years. PPL pilots need to understand they must keep themselves current on basic instrument flying skills either with an instructor in a real aircraft or in a synthetic trainer.

Loose rivets

3rd Oct 2012, 16:26

It's odd that he should want to build from parts of an aircraft that killed some of his family all those years ago. Maybe the aircraft meant much more to him because of that.

BBC News - Six dead in Australia vintage biplane crash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19810636)

morno

3rd Oct 2012, 17:14

Having heard all the radio calls as it happened and Des' description as he was going, some of the speculation so far on here is so far off the mark, it reads more like the media.

morno

framer

3rd Oct 2012, 20:23

The least experienced press on, whereas the more experienced turn back to join the most experienced whom never left the ground in the first place.

Great quote. It should be printed on the cover of every ppl and cpl licence issued.
The two hours (or is it five?) needed on simulated IMC for the PPL is not enough to last you many years.
Dead right. It's no where near enough to be able to cope with inadvertant flight into IMC a few years later. I don´t think increasing it is the answer though. Better decision making could be achieved by increasing awareness of how relentlessly repetitive these crashes are. A bi annual written exam on the circumstances of accidents like this would help and most ppls would actually enjoy studying for it. Make it compulsory but free of charge.

arizona

3rd Oct 2012, 20:26

Up to 15 helicopters search for missing DH84 Dragon plane between Kingaroy and Maleny | The Courier-Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/search-on-for-missing-plane-between-kingaroy-and-maleny/story-e6freon6-1226486050351)

ad-astra

3rd Oct 2012, 20:42

I think it may have been the first aircraft that his father crashed that was rebuilt.

The second aircraft that his father crashed which ultimately took his father and brother was not rebuilt.

Aviation is a very fickle and unforgiving companion!

Kharon

3rd Oct 2012, 21:31

It is always a sad, raw day when we loose one of the tribe; particularly when it's one of the rare breed who inspired; lived, breathed and loved flight, in all it's forms.

There are a couple of issues which we may discuss arising from the incident without offending and make good use of the Pprune voice.

1) Crash comic – the CC used to lay about in aero clubs, old articles rehashed, discussed and learned from. I can't put a number on it, but at least once a year there would be a reminder "I learned about flying from that" which discussed the perils of high performance weather v low performance aircraft, VFR into IMC, scud running, instrument flying for the out of practice etc. etc. They may not have prevented this accident, but they may have influenced someone else. Perhaps we need that kind of education to be resurrected.

If history were taught in the form of stories, it would never be forgotten. Kipling.

2) Once again, it took for ever to locate the site. Perhaps we need to focus on ways and means to speed up the process. Mention fixed ELT in some bars and you'll loose a limb, mention portable ELT and a punch up is likely: Spider tracks and other proprietary systems seem to work well. Now I don't begrudge the cost of a SAR operation, at all. Just wish we could agree and sort out some system which could 'quickly' locate a missing aircraft, reduce the cost and risk to SAR operations; without years of debate and 47 pages of legislation.

It's bad enough that we loose folks: the waiting for resolution must qualify as at least one of the hells on earth. Sincere condolences to the family and friends.

Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. C.S. Lewis.

Wallsofchina

3rd Oct 2012, 22:24

Having heard all the radio calls as it happened and Des' description as he was going, some of the speculation so far on here is so far off the mark, it reads more like the media.

morno

The transcript may be the most valuable learning tool to come out of this, particularly if it shed any light on whether the weather closed in behind him.

Neville Nobody

3rd Oct 2012, 22:49

Nothing was heard after he was asked to change frequency, with radio's down low and having to take his eyes off the instruments that might have been too much to ask. Sounds like he was in serious trouble anyway with another unwanted task too much.

Fris B. Fairing

3rd Oct 2012, 23:02

http://www.adastron.com/aviation/vault/CM-04OCT12.jpg

The Courier-Mail, Brisbane, 4 October 2012

Lodown

3rd Oct 2012, 23:08

Kharon: along with the crash comics, airports often had experienced VFR pilots lying around on coffee tables too. The types that did 900 hours a year VFR and most of that on charter. They knew all the routes and valleys to take in all different types of bad weather and those not to take for 500 miles around. Times have changed.

There are IPad and Iphone apps that track the position of other phones which are granted access. It's a cheap and effective (possibly) way for family members or operators to help out SAR in an emergency without impacting the Big Brother concerns that some people retain with AsA.

flying-spike

3rd Oct 2012, 23:58

The following is the sort of stuff that underlines my point about the "armchair quarterbacks" that give truth about it being better to keep your mouth shut and thought a fool. It is an attempt to attract credibility when the search is on for truth. Out of respect for those that have been affected by this terrible accident I left my reply to this post until those on this forum who know the victims personally have had a chance to say their goodbyes :
"That appears to have been precisely his problem, and it looks like I was pretty close to spot-on with my projected scenario, that I posted in post #56, about 4 hrs before the wreckage was spotted.
All the indications are that the impact point is in terrain sloping at around 35°-40°, and that the Dragon was doing a high RoC at substantial speed. The terrain is so steep, the SAR choppers couldn't land at the actual crash site."

All this was gleaned from a photo. It appears I wasted my time being trained as an accident investigator when all I had to do is look at a photo. "a high RoC", really? Did these poor people meet their terrible fate when the aircraft hit the terrain from below? High angle of attack and high rate of descent I can believe.
I won't go into what I take out of that photo but I repeat, let the searchers search and let the investigators investigate. Further, let the families and friends of these people grieve and the rest resist hypothesizing lest the ill informed comments find their way to a coronial investigation.
I agree with the comments about an emphasis in training on inadvertent VFR into IMC. Even better, improve the met reporting and bring back more proactive operational oversight of VFR from flight planning to flight following and SAR watch.

neville_nobody

4th Oct 2012, 00:29

Even better, improve the met reporting and bring back more proactive operational oversight of VFR from flight planning to flight following and SAR watch.

Change what you like at the end of the day the responsibility lies with the Captain of the aircraft for its safety and nothing is going to change that. We do not need any more oversight in this industry.

Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.

— Captain A. G. Lamplugh

flywatcher

4th Oct 2012, 00:31

I have also waited before entering this discussion. I find it ridiculous to suggest a high ROC and substantial speed, given the very leisurely rate of climb of a Dragon and its best climb speed of, I imagine, about 60 knots would cause that sort of impact damage.

A very high rate of descent and very high speed and an angle approaching the vertical would be more likely.

Sadly this has happened very times before now and will continue to happen in the future.

I grieve for the loss of fellow aviators.

Flying Binghi

4th Oct 2012, 00:46

.

...and there we have it. Compleatly different veiws from posters who probably have a fairly good idea about aircraft and accidents.

The flying-spike suggestion of waiting for an accident report before we theorise sounds like a good idea to me.

.

dghob

4th Oct 2012, 00:49

I wasn't a friend of Des', but am one of several friends who were customers of his at his automotive repair business here in Wynnum. He talked about the Dragon and suggested a flight with him which I will always regret not doing.

The thing we all appreciated about Des was his manner in dealing with us as mechanical dunces. He was always fair, communicative and did what he said he would do. He was the only mechanic who made our wives not feel stupid because he treated them with respect when they brought their cars in for service.

Keg

4th Oct 2012, 00:54

I suspect high 'RoC' was simply a typo and instead a high RoD was the intended meaning given the rest of the context of the entire statement.

Stikybeke

4th Oct 2012, 01:13

"let the searchers search and let the investigators investigate. Further, let the families and friends of these people grieve and the rest resist hypothesizing lest the ill informed comments find their way to a coronial investigation."

Well said FS.

My condolences to any and all affected by this tragic accident. May the passage of time heal your sorrow at this sad time.

Stiky.

sixtiesrelic

4th Oct 2012, 01:25

I've known Des for a short time (six or so years) and recognised one of aviation's heroes.
He didn't break records and get tickertape parades; he was a quiet hero.
He loved that old aeroplane and shared her with all who shared that love.
An old bloke once stated about vintage car buffs, " There's the goers and there's the showers".
Des was definitely a goer. He didn't have a rope around his aeroplane with signs saying 'NO closer'.
He let us smell her. All older aeroplanes have their own smell.
Old and bold pilots can be led to an aeroplane blindfolded and told to sniff. They'll announce, Tiger Moth, Chippy or DC-3 or whatever, soon enough.
Des shared her with us all. We could go and sit in the cockpit and see what it was like for those pilots who went before us and were stoked to get command of a twin.
He was ready to take people up for a fly whenever he had time.
I went twice. First time was with my cousin who had never been in a Dragon and always wanted to, my son whose grandfather had many hours in them, a mate who's 'first time up' had been in a Dragon when he was a little kid and wanted to relive the thrill, as I did.
As an eight and nine year old, I'd sat on my old man's lap in one and 'flown the plane' on a few occasions. We'd chased emus and dingos on one trip.
Des didn't just take us up for a fly; he gave us options as to what we wanted to see. The three older blokes had seen Brissy from the air hundreds of times, so Des rang a mate and checked he was at home and the state of his strip and took us there.
Two takeoffs and landings as well as a spin up the Wivenhoe, over Watts Bridge and the top end of the Somerset dam and home.
He charged only what it cost and I know the total we paid wasn't what it cost to operate her.
We returned to the halcyon days of aviation, listening to a couple of Gypsies gurgling along at 1900 RPM. We looked through vibration wires and stands of struts. The ground wasn't far below and it oozed along at a sedate 90, so we could really see what was happening on the ground. A farmer looked up while driving his tractor and waved.
We dropped in to 'a paddick with a bit of a strip near the fence'. It had white painted tires delineating the edges and worn grass to show where aircraft taxied off.
We were welcomed by a few aviation types and invited under a haus wind for a cuppa and some bickies.
Naturally flying and aeroplanes were discussed and there were a couple of soppy dogs needin' a pat and more importantly, any spare bits of biscuit.
The cat put in an appearance and looked us over. We were deemed OK, so were permitted to stand still and get our legs rubbed against.
After the cuppa, we wandered around looking in hangars at a marvellous array of interesting aeroplanes from rag and tube to the latest plastic technology.
The flight took an hour but it was most of a morning that we got the nostalgic whiffs of avgas exhaust, leather seats, doped fabric and country air.
We got stuck in and were allowed to help fold the wings back against the airframe, attach tow bars and carefully manoeuvre the old red girl back into the hangar and get the wheels over the dots on the hangar floor.
Unlike the costly, regimented experience of a commercial operation, we felt part of laid back owner operations. Three of us were logbook fillers with totals of thousands of hours and were as chuffed as we were back in the day when a four seater was a big deal.

I rounded up five more people for a repeat performance a couple of years later and they were stoked.

A mate told me that he went for a fly in Riama at Toowoomba. Thirty five to forty minutes and Des wouldn't take any money for the flight. They pressed paper in his hands and he said, "I'll bung it in my Flying Doctor kick".

That was Des... a sharer and carer.

Aviation will be poorer for the loss of a great bloke and I guess Riama will go to Moth Care or another restorer for a rebuild.
I certainly hope so and will bung my hand in my pocket if needed to, to resurrect her as a monument to Des Porter and his dad.

nomorecatering

4th Oct 2012, 02:08

What a beautiful post.

Wally Mk2

4th Oct 2012, 02:16

Well that's that,they now rest with God or whomever God is to you.

Jabba my friend & to those that new Des & his friends I extend my sympathies to you all who are involved in that field of aviation, a dangerous & at times unforgiving world you guys fly in.

Perhaps in the future as I've said in the past we can ALL learn from the likes of Des's misfortunes & take a little part of the Des's of the past world with us every time we advance the throttle.

One thing I used to keep in the back of my mind & this was instilled in me by an early instructor was that anytime you where flying in weather that had any significant cloud around say above 4 Octa's then never fly in VMC blw the highest peak of terrain in yr immediate area. In other words know where you are at all times & the LSALT. The ONLY time this was not a major consideration (terrain height wise) was when there wasn't a cloud in sight.
I got caught once in my 33 yrs of driving planes, fortunately for me it was over an inlet which was SL (obviously) & I couldn't out climb the surrounding terrain due cloud to get to my destination so I diverted coastal at very low level to find a country strip & land.I swear right there & then that I'd heed my instructors advice big time...........I'd been on a short break down to YFLI (yes I know Jabba SE over water in my silly days!!:))& luckily had a change of undies!!!

RIP Des & those that joined you for we are more humble than ever as we all ought to be right now.

Wmk2

flying-spike

4th Oct 2012, 03:11

I agree with what you say if the oversight is the Big Brother punitive regulator type of oversight.
I think we had the correct model when we had FSUs and FSOs that were local and knew the area and maybe even flew in it. But then again I was an FSO and have a small hatchet to grind.
I couldn't count the number of times I have passed on aircraft reports of 8 octas below 5000 with vis less than a K to VFR even Sartime aircraft.
We can all come up with maybes but as has already been mentioned the last defense is the PIC.

frigatebird

4th Oct 2012, 04:38

Remember the good times.. lovely post sixties

Stationair8

4th Oct 2012, 06:24

Lovely post sixties relic.

RenegadeMan

4th Oct 2012, 06:46

A great picture you've painted for us sixtiesrelic. Thanks for taking the time and care to write it.

rmcdonal

4th Oct 2012, 07:09

From the ABC:
Specialist investigators
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) and police will lead the investigation into the plane crash.
Disaster victim identification officers and CASA and Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) investigators investigators are expected at the site today.
Authorities prepare to recover bodies from crash - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-04/authorities-prepare-to-recover-bodies-from-plane-crash/4294480)
CASA investigate?

TWT

4th Oct 2012, 07:18

That's a very poorly crafted piece from the ABC,so I wouldn't bet my life on its accuracy

Capt Casper

4th Oct 2012, 08:44

It is always sad and usually speculative to discuss accidents.
In my opinion and I stress, opinion, Flying - Spike is closest to the truth. These days, information is available by the ton, but what you need is virtually inaccessable.
FS, FSO's and people (with knowledge) dispersed throughout the country were able to succinctley condense what you needed to know to make an informed decision. These days, if you telephone briefing you will wait endlessly for an operator to respond, you will be read what you ask for and only what you ask for and on the end of a phone in the bush you probably won't even understand your options unless very experienced. If you cart your computer around you almost invariably won't get reception at a bush airstrip and if you do you will be confronted with 99 pages of text in heiroglyphics a master of science could not understand.
Bureacracy cover their arse with no thought of useability.
Most pilots are very responsible. They do the best they can.
Unfortunately an emergency must exist before the rescources of the system are available to you. Often then - too late.
I understand cost pressures on Government departments but at the end of the day in Australia there are no longer any public servants - just bureacracies with CUSTOMERS or CLIENTS who must take or leave the options available. There simply is no "SERVICE" from any government instrumentality. The people who work for them are totaly hamstrung by internal rules and regulations. Every private flight flown, is made on the basis of the best you can do under the circumstances.The government view is fly at your own peril - our rules are rewritten by the hour, by our legal experts who can craft any situation into an edict which the paticipant should have forseen.
God help this country if we stay on the path we are being taken.

Clearedtoreenter

4th Oct 2012, 09:36

These days, if you telephone briefing you will wait endlessly for an operator to respond, you will be read what you ask for and only what you ask for and on the end of a phone in the bush you probably won't even understand your options unless very experienced.

If you look on the bottom of an area forecast or in the ERSA, you will find a phone number which will give you a direct connection to an Aviation Meteorologist, who will answer the 'phone any time of the day or night and be more than happy to provide a 'technical elaboration' and discuss the vagaries of any forecast. They won't of course tell you to go or not go.

172driver

4th Oct 2012, 10:01

Having heard all the radio calls as it happened and Des' description as he was going, some of the speculation so far on here is so far off the mark, it reads more like the media.

Well, morno, if you know it all, why don't you enlighten us?

In any case - RIP.

mcoates

4th Oct 2012, 10:13

There are other 'specialist' forums suggesting that if it was a nosewheel aircraft it would have landed safely, where do people get this sh*t from ? :mad:

bogdantheturnipboy

4th Oct 2012, 10:14

I totally agree with Jabawocky.

If not now, when is the right time to discuss these issues?

None of us know exactly what happened and whether there where other mitigating circumstances that contributed to this accident, however, commonsense tells us that the weather was one of the most significant factors.

I feel sad that Des and his passengers have died, but I also feel like it is THE PERFECT time to discuss flying in IMC without an instrument rating. And transiting from VFR to IMC.

It is not disrespectful to have this sort of discussion. This is being responsible.
These issues need to be discussed, because, aviators by accident or deliberately find themselves in these situations.

Many commercial and private pilots fly in IMC on a regular basis when they should only be VFR and the more they do it, they think they can get away with it. (I am no saying Des was like this, as I have no idea). But I do know many pilots like this.

The fact is: the weather around the Sunshine Coast hinterland was NOT suitable for VFR flight that day.

If you are VFR and the forecast indicates it is clearly not suitable, it is pretty simple to me - don't depart. It is not always that straight forward of course. But that day, how anyone thought they were going to get over the ranges VFR was not living in reality.

ForkTailedDrKiller

4th Oct 2012, 10:23

If you are VFR and the forecast indicates it is clearly not suitable, it is pretty simple to me - don't depart. It is not always that straight forward of course.

Weather forcasting/reporting in Australia is so bad that you would not fly much if you followed that rule!

Interestingly, in Alaska, FAA have set up webcams in numerous key locations - you can go online and take a look at the weather in realtime!

Dr :8

Jabawocky

4th Oct 2012, 10:48

Thanks for agreeing with me :ok:

But we are going to disagree on a few points.

First of all, there was VFR all around the place, I mostly fly IFR, but that day, and at that exact time, while morn was in the hold at MLY I was about 20 miles east travelling back from up near Gladstone with a few friends, most with way more experience than me, and one with plenty of PNG time.

As we approached those ranges about an hour earlier within 10 miles of the crash site we had a choice to make, go west and through the gap at Woodford/kilcoy, or go east to Gympie, have a pie/sausage roll, coke/coffee, get some fuel, even though not needed, and rethink our attack.

The Airline Captain/PNG guy out front who was closer to the action made the right call, we all went to Gympie. I think we could have gone west and around the long way, we could have gone anywhere west.....I could see the hills around Nanango, it was that good.

The west and north-west is where Des came from. The weather was fine for VFR flight.

The cruddy stuff was on the coast, but, it claggs in on the ranges and VMC conditions existed all the way southbound down the VFR lane. Sure we left Gympie at about 1500AGL and at times were down to 500AGL, mainly due to those whispy drizzly bits, but from the VFR lane we could see YBSU, YCDR and apart from some yukky stuff right near YCAB, the viz was OK and as forecast.

Out to our right wing = UGLY REALLY UGLY, the whole ranges were socked in, from one end to the other.

If I went IFR that day it woud have been a classic hot steamy bumpy ride over those hills. not pleasant but flyable in the right machine etc. I dread the thought of doing it in a DH Dragon.

Des was not a risky cowboy. Having some knowledge of what transpired, I can only assume he got sucked in to seeing a gap and then running up the range, getting trapped and caught out.

It may seem harsh to say, about a mate, but I think he got sucked in, and stuffed up.

Plenty of others have and will, none of us expected someone like him to be in that situation. It makes some of us wonder .....if he can, what about me!

be vigilant folks..... It is easy to fool people, and the easiest to fool is ourself!

VH-XXX

4th Oct 2012, 11:43

The cruddy stuff was on the coast, but, it claggs in on the ranges and VMC conditions existed all the way southbound down the VFR lane. Sure we left Gympie at about 1500AGL and at times were down to 500AGL, mainly due to those whispy drizzly bits, but from the VFR lane we could see YBSU, YCDR and apart from some yukky stuff right near YCAB, the viz was OK and as forecast.

Welcome to Victorian weather!

How much of that type of weather do you get up there like that, it is rarely, some days or often? Just interested really.

Jabawocky

4th Oct 2012, 11:53

Not that much, well not since the 3 years of wet season have eased off.

We do normally enjoy better on average, than you Victorians, who are much braver, tougher and all that

morno

4th Oct 2012, 12:04

Well, morno, if you know it all, why don't you enlighten us?

Because I don't think a public forum that is trawled by media is the correct place to be discussing my recall of the radio calls during the event.

morno

RenegadeMan

4th Oct 2012, 12:57

That's a great description of the conditions on the day Jaba; gives a really good overview of how easily one can get caught out.

It's very easy to say "if it's not VFR just don't go", that's a statement that would seem to suggest there are two weather states, one okay for VFR flight and one that requires IFR and IFR only. Of course, as your post indicates, things can start out very well and deteriorate around you on the way. And what appears to be a situation you can deal with can then turn nasty without you realising just how bad it is. The other factor is the pressure Des would have been under (which I've referred to in a previous post). They were already a day late with, I believe, a plan to have come back on the Sunday afternoon, and it no doubt may have seemed like it wasn't going to be too difficult to get around the bad weather as he approached it.

I was once flying VFR coastal around Eastern Victoria (somewhere near Mallacoota) just on 500 feet AGL travelling north along the beach in a Beechcraft Sundowner (not a fast machine, we had a 20 knot headwind...cars on the road below appeared to be going faster than us...) The weather was marginal with low ceiling just above me. The forecast was for improving conditions further to the north so I was believing better weather was not too far ahead. I kept seeing patches of blue above me until I (incorrectly) surmised the cloud was breaking up. I decided to climb believing I'd be able to get up a little higher and be free of the low ceiling that appeared to be breaking up above me. I pushed the throttle forward and climbed thinking I'll be above 7/8 or better in no time. I went into cloud (I'm not IFR rated) and I didn't come out until 3800 feet. In brilliant sunshine and crystal clear air I was then flying above a sloping cloud deck, which could have been a disaster in and of itself but I'd read about such things, knew my A/H was working fine and decided I needed to believe the instruments (but clearly I was in an environment I very much knew I shouldn't have been in).

After breaking into the clear I decided the most sensible thing to do was point the aircraft due east (knowing there was no land or mountains until at least NZ) and descend back down at around 400 ft/min until I popped out over water, which I successfully did about 15 miles offshore. I then did a 180 degree turn and headed back to the coast to continue my trip at 500 feet under the ceiling.

It was a defining moment in my flying experience. Fortunately I'd only just recently done a BFR where I'd done about 30 min under the hood so my instrument scanning skills were recent. It taught me a big lesson about believing cloud above you is breaking up or that it's not thick. What I think I did well though was kept climbing after I went into the cloud rather than trying to come back down again when I was near headlands and hills along the coastal stretch and already so low, maintained good instrument scan & control, pointed the a/c away from high ground using very gradual movements and used a low rate of descent to let down back out of it.

It pays to have a plan on what to do if you do go into cloud suddenly and find yourself not breaking out within a few seconds and I'd encourage all VFR pilots to really think about it.

Ren

172driver

4th Oct 2012, 13:03

Because I don't think a public forum that is trawled by media is the correct place to be discussing my recall of the radio calls during the event.

morno

Fair enough. It's just that I - and from what I read many here - would like to learn from sad events like this one. IOW: how does an experienced pilot paint himself into such a corner...

Miraz

4th Oct 2012, 13:45

how does an experienced pilot paint himself into such a corner...

Very easily....if your flight plan and planned contingencies prove to be inadequate for the situation in which you find yourself then you are well on the path to corner country - and it is very easy to be sucked into a situation that falls outside your contingency plans.

Most of us have pushed on into marginal conditions in the unsubstantiated belief that conditions will improve at some point in our careers...sometimes you get away with it, sometimes you scare yourself and, unfortunately sometimes you get it catastrophically wrong.

Unplanned low level departure from VMC is not a good place to find yourself, no matter how much experience you have in your flight bag.

vme

4th Oct 2012, 20:27

C1317/12 review c1312/12 tempo restricted area act wi 2nm rad of psn s26 27.2 e152 27.19 5nm se manumbar ala (ymub) queensland (qld) no flight permitted without prior approval from controlling authority ctc: Qld police tel: 0438 200 705 sfc to 4000ft amsl from 10 040119 to 10 090000 est

VH-XXX

4th Oct 2012, 20:50

Good story RenegageMan. I know a pilot who shall remain nameless that popped into some cloud at circa 500ft after seeing blue above and didn't come out until 7,450ft, right under a 7,500ft class C boundary. Cloud is a beast that is difficult to predict at the best of times.

hihosland

4th Oct 2012, 22:03

How many of us as VFR pilots have ventured into that 178 second realm and been fortunate enough to return.?

I know that I have been there and the three things that came together to bring me and my passengers back were an AH, sufficient fuel and recent simulator time. Without any one of those essentials and a very large dose of luck the last 235 years of the joys and the sorrows of life shared by the seven of us on board would never have been.

What follows is what I wrote of those events for a one of the flying magazines.

One Monday in March some years back, saw me pacing the early morning dew at Bathurst airfield. Our driver, desperate to get back to open his business was looking at his watch as often as was the passenger who had a shop to open in Melbourne. Neither of them understood nor wanted to understand the problem. They could see that the field was clear of storm, gale and fog so why the delay?

Days earlier on the outward journey storms over Katoomba had forced us to abandon the rented Cessna 210 at Bathurst and finish the journey by taxi.
When making plans for a family reunion and celebration weekend in the Blue Mountains this level of stress, uncertainty and delay was not anticipated. On the morning that we were all due back at our various workplaces everyone was stuck at Bathurst while I struggled with the go/no go decision.

So much for a relaxed weekend and for my reputation as someone who gets thing done - on time and on budget. My credibility was eroding fast, while the cloud, with tantalizing slowness , was just barely eroding from the ridge tops.
To balance the briefing office’s gloomy predictions, I obtained an actual weather from and aircraft at Canowindra. Since he was reporting CAVOK below high cloud I decided to take off and check the cloud/ridge interface from up close.

The passengers were loaded and advised that we would be returning to Bathurst if a clear path could not be found.
Viewed from the sky the gaps were larger; the horizontal visibility was definitely an improvement on the slant view from the ground. Not good, but not too bad; & I did have that actual report. Another decision made and VH-BEV rolled onto a track up the most open valley.
There was plenty of width between fingers of wispy cloud that barely reached down to the peaks. Straight ahead of us was a tunnel large enough to turn the QE2 . All I had to do was pop through that tunnel and then it would be smooth flying all the way home. One small obstacle to clear before I would get everyone home with all obligations and promises honoured.

Minutes later those wispy fingers became hands, hands gathering the land up into the cloud. The valley was narrower, and all ahead was grayish white down to the green of the trees. Or was it? Surely it was just another slant line illusion? And if only we were low enough it would again reveal that clear path up the valley. It had after, been clearly visible mere seconds ago.

Gently carefully, I eased the first millimeter off the throttle,. The pasture was now streaming past. A view abruptly punctured by a clump of trees, the mates of whom, I suddenly realized were a bout to obliterate two families.

It was time to stop laying the odds and to seriously aviate. Throttle forward, wings level, ease the trim towards climb. A wisp of mist swiped at the windshield as I checked the power. Then the view completely disappeared. The abruptness was a shock, as was the glaring white blackness.
Glaring white blackness?
That’s the very question that I asked myself. But I saw what I saw.

The engine note changed in step with my reflex snap back on the column and with the passengers’ silence. They were not pilots, but had been oft regaled by pilots’ stories. Do pilots ever tell stories that are not about being disoriented in cloud, stall and spin or other disasters?

I forced myself to focus on the AH. It showed winds level and the nose slightly up – we were climbing straight ahead.
What next?
Something about scan?
Yes Attitude, altitude, speed and direction.
Attitude? Climbing straight ahead, wings level – good.
Altitude? 3500 and climbing at 400 fpm.
Speeds MP? and airspeed OK for climb.
Direction? What direction ? I’d been chasing valleys wherever they led. All sense of direction was well lost.

Fossicking for the charts I remembered Scan!
Scan scan, scan., forget the charts.

I looked out to where there was no wing to see, merely water streaming along the Perspex. Beyond that , nothing, absolutely nothing; just more of that glaring white blackness.
Attitude, altitude, speed and direction
Attitude, altitude, speed and direction
Attitude, altitude, speed and direction
Good training , earlier ignored, asserted itself. The memorized litanies returned. Aviate, communicate, navigate.

Communicate! My God, communicate!. I had so far avoided the rocks in those clouds but what about speeding aluminium rocks?

“Canberra this is Cessna Bravo Echo Victor , VFR to the south of Bathurst seven POB. Passing through seven thousand VFR in solid cloud. Request assistance”.
“ Bravo Echo Victor , say again VFR in cloud?”
“Affirmative VFR in cloud”
“ Bravo Echo Victor, stand by….. Bravo Echo Victor remain this frequency and keep wings level on AH”.
“ Bravo Echo Victor”

” Bravo Echo Victor say again POB? And do you have an instrument rating?”
“Seven POB, no rating”
“ Bravo Echo Victor I am clearing this frequency of all other traffic.
Maintain wings level 0on AH. I repeat keep wings level on AH”
“ Bravo Echo Victor”.
“ Bravo Echo Victor keepings wings level can you advise your present position”.
“Maintaining heading two zero zero leaving 8500 feet on climb.
location unsure”.
“ Bravo Echo Victor, concentrate on wings level on AH. If possible maintain climb. We do not have you on radar at this time”.
“ Bravo Echo Victor”
Attitude, altitude, speed and direction
Attitude, altitude, speed and direction
Attitude, altitude, speed and direction
A tense 40 mins after we had entered cloud and as suddenly as we had originally been engulfed, we were spat out into brilliant light. Clear unblemished blue above and a solid froth of white below.

“Canberra, Bravo Echo Victor is maintaining 11200 on top of solid cloud, heading one eight zero”.
“ Bravo Echo Victor, keep wings level on AH and, if possible, maintain heading and remain clear of cloud”.
‘ Bravo Echo Victor”
“ Bravo Echo Victor your you are radar identified. Can you come onto a heading of one five eight, remaining clear of cloud?”
“One five eight Bravo Echo Victor”.
“Canberra Bravo Echo Victor is visual, ten thousand over Lake George”.
“ Bravo Echo Victor, remaining clear of cloud, descend to 5500. At 5500 contact Canberra approach on 124.5
“124.5 Bravo Echo Victor”

What else to say?
No one factor created the situation. Just the usual story of a cascading sequence of small deviations from best practice. Thankfully good training eventually did take over. On the ground, an excellent service shepherded two vulnerable babies and their families to safety.
Thank-you is so little to offer for such a big service. So little in exchange for seven lives. But thank you ATC was all that I had to offer then and all that I have today.

Calm, assured and professional guidance brought us safely home. That and the instructor who in supervising my transfer from a New Zealand PPL to an Australian one had insisted on a couple of hours of real IFR training in IFR conditions.

Today both of those infants have children of their own . Children who, we can only hope will grow up p forever protected from that subtle cascading sequence of small deviations. That killer cascade that converts people into statistics.
And, I wonder, VH-BEV where are you today?.

frigatebird

4th Oct 2012, 22:11

Good description Jaba, and thanks for that appreciation of the conditions in that area.

A long time ago, about halfway through my first 10 years without a instrument rating, I was in one of Don Milroy's Cherokee 6's on the way fom Rocky to Brisbane to pick up a load of Telegraphs. The weather over the hills west of Maleny and at Kilcoy was all storms and rain so much so that I couldn't get though the valley to the Glasshouses, and I went back to Kingaroy and rang the boss. The papers were run out to me there ( the van driver got a smashed windscreen on the way out, so he wasn't happy either....)
When going from here almost due south to Watts Bridge sometimes, my track goes just west of Borumba Dam, over the Amamoor forest where the Gympie Muster is held, and the Tiger Country that is the headwaters of the Mary. Its very timbered, rugged, and gets a high rainfall that helps give the river some flow. Not many clearings for a place to go should my only motor fail. I stay a little higher unless there is something of particular interest, and give it a wide berth with any weather. That said, I don't feel officialdom should get in the act and declare it a no-low-fly area like Carnarvon Gorge.
On the Monday, a local young RAA Instructor who also has a Private licence, hired a 172 that had been IFR, left with two girl friends to drop them over to Toowoomba, but came back because of weather on his track. Good call. He drove them over later. I offered to IFR charter them over in the Navajo but it was declined because he wouldn't be flying and because of the cost.

Experience is not only about weather type, but learning where it can affect you the most, and learning where the Tiger areas are is a big part of that. A little extra fuel (without going overboard) to bypass them can be a boon for an easier flight.

Sunfish

4th Oct 2012, 22:48

Been almost caught myself and I didn't even realise the danger I was in until a few days later.

"Get home itis" heading back to Melbourne from Swan Hill. Just North of Bendigo the ceiling started to descend towards 1000AGL. I had the brilliant idea of pushing on and decided to head for Bacchus Marsh, overflying Daylesford.

As I approached Daylesford, I could see the ceiling over the mountains ahead dropped to a little over 500AGL by my estimate.

"Thats OK" I said to myself, "I'll just squeeze under and then fly down the Lerderderg Gorge" to Bacchus Marsh, then an easy coastal back to YMMB".

.....And I did exactly that....

..and found myself over tiger country, the gorge is very rough....with a very very low ceiling that was descending, not rising.

The next Ten minutes were exciting, and nowhere to go except forward. Luckily I just had room enough to descend a little faster than the cloud.

I should have either returned to Bendigo or gone further West to Ballarat and either landed or followed the freeway down.

Lesson : Unless you can actually see your destination, don't try and squeeze through.

Jack Ranga

4th Oct 2012, 23:03

And that's one of the dangers Sunny, you made it through that time. Next time will you say to yourself:

'I made it through last time, I'll give it a shot'

or will you say to yourself:

'That was **** last time, I'm not trying that again'

?

Ovation

4th Oct 2012, 23:26

Every picture tells a story, and in the Courier Mail on-line there's a picture of the three ladies that were on board the last flight. What particularly caught my attention was the amount of luggage in the foreground, and I can see at least 12 items.

While I'm not aware of the load carrying ability of the aircraft, my immediate thought was W+B may have been a contributing factor.

Homesick-Angel

4th Oct 2012, 23:29

The stories in the last couple of pages are exactly the info that is invaluable to come out of these events. The common and consistent cause of accidents is us particularly around the getthereitis and she'll be right mate..

Thanks renegade man sunfish and others for the stories

RenegadeMan

5th Oct 2012, 00:08

I think there is nothing better than us all detailing our brushes with these sorts of experiences. Hihosland, your story is incredible and one that I'm sure many have been through. Thanks for taking the time to write it and bare all (and especially note the emotion around what it's meant to you all these years later re family and the help you were given that day....congratulations, you did well getting on the radio and asking for help).

What's such an important factor in all of this are the human dynamics around management of passenger expectations and your reputation. Just like hihosland has pointed out, most of us are 'get the job done' 'always deliver' type of people. Our passengers know us this way too and the mix of this personality type, get-there-itis, bad weather and VFR-only capability is a recipe for disaster. I long ago learnt that taking family and friends on weekends away or to a wedding or must-get-there event is a distinct no no.

We all love flying, we all love to share flying with our family and friends, but within that love and passion we must be prepared to disappoint or have to cancel a trip and cause a whole lot of difficulty when we can't get people home. That's part of what comes with the territory; the ability to be real and genuine and keep yourself safe. As I've noted before, I think Des ended up under too much pressure to get back from Monto and probably did exactly what we've all done; pushed on when he should have just turned around and gone back.

When oh when will we tackle this human factors issue!!!??? So much work has been done on cockpit resource management in professional flying and getting pilots to check their "personal minimums" but teaching people about how to avoid high pressure/reputation loss/got-to-get-there situations is still (in my opinion) in its infancy and needs a whole lot more work.

Ren

RenegadeMan

5th Oct 2012, 00:12

flying-spike what happened to your post about getting caught out on a flight out of Cairns? It seems to have disappeared. It was a good story and may help some young student save their life. Please repost. We need all the stories we can get to get everyone sharing this stuff to stop these VFR into IMC accidents happening.

Lookleft

5th Oct 2012, 00:18

In 2005 CASA ran a safety workshop around the country that looked at the problem of VMC into IMC. One of the stats was that most of the accidents occurred in the second half of the journey. The other stat was that most of the pilots that did a PSL survived but the aircraft did not. The workshop was considered to be that good that the Canadians adopted the format and charged $400 to attend. The point being that work has been done in trying to educate pilots, (try and download 178seconds to live) but as others have stated the desire to get home can sometimes override sound decision making. Might be worth having a read of this .General Aviation Pilot Behaviours in the Face of Adverse Weather (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2005/pilot_behaviours_adverse_weather.aspx)

Miraz

5th Oct 2012, 00:40

I'll add another story.....had my PPL for all of about a month and took a shiny G1000 equipped C182 away for a week over the Xmas break with my fiancee..3rd leg was from Maroochydore to Young.

The weather was poor on the Sunshine coast, 1500-1800ft cloud base 5-6km of viz with localised heavy showers but the forecast was for clear conditions south of the the NSW border and west of the ranges. We set off and followed the beaches down the coast with occasional deviations to avoid the heaviest showers, by the time we past Coolangatta we were clear of the rain and the cloud had lifted - a thin layer of 2/8 at around 3000 and 3-4/8 at around 7000.

I spent the next few minutes on the radio confirming the weather on the western side of the ranges hadn't changed, requested flight following from the controller and somewhere around Tweed Heads changed course to track directly to Young and climb to 9000ft, confident that we would be well clear of cloud, maintain a clear view of the ground and that the cloud cover would continue to thin out as we progressed south.

The plan seemed to be good, we crossed the Border ranges to Kyogle without incident and it looked like we had made the right call. However somewhere between Mt Belmore the cloud started to fill in again, and the top of the upper cloud layer had risen up to 9000ft and it was becoming harder to stay clear of the upper cloud layer and maintain a clear view of the ground. So I decided to drop down to 5-6000 ft to get below the upper cloud layer whilst there were still larger openings in the upper cloud layer. So I found a nice big opening, advised the controller that I would be descending below cloud and made a descending turn at around 1500ft/min in clear air.

Within a few minutes of starting the descent, the folly of my decisions started to become painfully apparent. There were no longer two layers of cloud - it was solid murk all the way down. The hole through which I was descending that had been a good 4 miles across at the start of the descent closed up on me - the blue sky overhead went first, then the ground began to disappear too.

I pressed on with the descent, searching for the clear air that I had seen only a few minutes ago as we climbed up through it - as we passed through 5000ft the controller started to ask for assurances that I was in clear air and had a good view of the ground and that I was well below LSALT. The controller's intervention forced me to get my head back inside the cockpit and re-assess the situation....I was deep inside the Gibraltar Range at 4,000ft, no horizontal visibility and occasional glimpses of tree covered slopes if I looked down past the gear.....****! How had my day turned to custard in just a few minutes?

I set the GPS display to colour code the terrain by relative height...any terrain close to my altitude turned red, clear air turned black...there was a lot of red. I used the autopilot to maintain wings-level, best angle of climb and altered course with the heading bug to follow the black bits of the GPS display out to the south east towards Grafton.

Reasonable visibility returned as we left the range and we were able to breathe again and confirm that we were no longer in any immediate danger.

Many valuable lessons learnt that day.....I have been quite happy to go a long way to avoid revisiting those lessons ever since.

Jabawocky

5th Oct 2012, 00:48

vme
C1317/12 review c1312/12 tempo restricted area act wi 2nm rad of psn s26 27.2 e152 27.19 5nm se manumbar ala (ymub) queensland (qld) no flight permitted without prior approval from controlling authority ctc: Qld police tel: 0438 200 705 sfc to 4000ft amsl from 10 040119 to 10 090000 est

Interesting, the lat long on my charts unless I have done this wrong is about 1.5 - 2.0 NM SW on Manumbar or less (too lazy to measure it.

I wonder what is correct? If you flew the YCAB - YMTO track today would you be in the TRA or not? :confused:

Someone in the know might want to get the Notam guys to check this out.

flying-spike

5th Oct 2012, 01:44

Unfortunately I deleted it by mistake so I will rewrite it:
I put myself (and my pax) in a similar situation flying from Mt. Isa to Cairns for a Dire Straits concert. We just managed to squeeze under the overcast and above the ridges north of Cairns. It was typical S.E. stream weather and not unlike weather near the Sunshine Coast earlier this week. We were in heavy rain and I will say no more than 500" above the ridge. I was fortunate in that I new exactly where I was and I was hearing VFR arrivals into Cairns from the north. I gave myself the proverbial kick in @rse when we landed.
My previous brush with that sort of Wx was south of Cairns on my first solo nav. The plan was a departure to the north then via Biboohra to Mt. Garnet then Innisfail coastal back to Cairns. Turning east after Mt. Garnet I was faced with a wall of grey with fractocumulus and heavy showers. I turned back and landed at Mt.Garnet and re-planned on the reciprocal flight plan.
It is very easy to put yourself in that sort of situation, very important to have an exit strategy but that should never include going into IMC especially in a day VFR aircraft.
In an effort to check my spelling I came across this. Revisiting this may help others understand what they are approaching and why they should avoid it.
Forms

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Ns1.jpg/220px-Ns1.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ns1.jpg) http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.20wmf11/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ns1.jpg)
A nimbostratus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimbostratus) cloud in the background with a stratus fractus in the middle of the upper half of the image.

Fractus are accessory clouds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_cloud), named for the type of cloud from which they were sheared. The two principal forms are cumulus fractus (formerly, fractocumulus) and stratus fractus (formerly, fractostratus). Fractus clouds may develop into cumulus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumulus_cloud) if the ground heats enough to start convection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_convection). Stratus fractus is distinguishable from cumulus fractus by its smaller vertical extent, darker color, and by the greater dispersion of its particles.
Cumulus fractus clouds actually look like ragged cumulus clouds.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractus_cloud#cite_note-Glossary_of_Meteorology-0) They may originate from dissipated cumulus clouds, appearing in this case as white ragged clouds located at significant distances from each other. Cumulus fractus in particular form on the leading and trailing edges of summer storms in warm and humid conditions.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractus_cloud#cite_note-1) Observing fractus gives an indication of wind movements under the parent cloud.
Masses of multiple fractus clouds, located under a main cloud, are called pannus.
Fractonimbus are a form of stratus fractus, developing under precipitation clouds due to turbulent air movement. They are dark-gray and ragged in appearance. Fractonimbus exist only under precipitation clouds (such as nimbostratus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimbostratus), altostratus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altostratus_cloud) or cumulonimbus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumulonimbus_cloud)), and don't produce precipitation themselves. Fractonimbus may eventually merge completely with overlying nimbostratus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimbostratus) clouds.
Significance in thunderstorms

In rainstorms, scud often form in the updraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Updraft) area where the air has been cooled by precipitation from the downdraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downdraft), thus condensation occurs below the ambient cloud deck. If scud are rising and moving towards the main updraft, sometimes marked by a rain-free base (RFB) or wall cloud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_cloud), then the thunderstorm is still developing. Scud are common and are usually insignificant. However, scud precede wall clouds, which often form from rising scud.
In addition to forming in inflow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflow_%28meteorology%29), fractus also form in outflow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outflow_%28meteorology%29). Scud are very common on the leading edge of a thunderstorm where warm, moist air is lifted by the gust front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gust_front). Scud are usually found under shelf clouds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelf_cloud).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractus_cloud#cite_note-Storm_Talk-2)

Possum1

5th Oct 2012, 01:52

I agree Jabawocky. I measured this on Google Earth and got 1.3 nm SW of YMUB. I think the lat/long is more or less correct as it shows a cleared area 300m SE from the crash site as detailed on the map on the CourierMail's website where I presume a chopper could land. It also agrees with the initial information at the first press conference after finding the crash site on Wednesday when it was stated that it is located 14km NW from the Borumba Dam wall.

Ultralights

5th Oct 2012, 01:58

some interesting stories. but i noticed a lack of the 4 words that could save ones lives...."precautionary search and landings"

RenegadeMan

5th Oct 2012, 02:01

Hi Brian

Can you please clarify this:

Ren, unfortunately many (I note some of those posting here) seemingly don't believe that a PIC can use any excuse to abrogate his failings. See the Norfolk Island thread and the lambasting the crew get. Any notion that human factors may have had a role to play was quickly and firmly squashed.

I'm not sure what you're saying exactly. I've been following the Norfolk thread and the overarching theme seems to be that the PIC was under all sorts of pressures (commercial, employment, potentially not wanting to look unsure....) but at the end of day he was the PIC and shouldn't have let the no-alternative/Norfolk-or-bust situation to have occurred. But you're also saying the human factors issue in that situation was squashed? It would seem the "PIC is PIC and needs to behave like a PIC" concept got away from James there in conducting that flight but the operator and regulator aren't going to acknowledge the unreasonable levels of pressure the PIC was under either.

One of the key points I'm trying to raise awareness of is that we (PICs) can get ourselves into a 'corner' with ourselves, our passengers and others who see us as so very capable way before we've even taken off and made our way to the "VFR into IMC corner" that this accident and the stories many are writing on here involves.

(PS - those two stories of yours are examples of people that were millimetres away from fatal crashes, thanks for sharing)

Ren

RenegadeMan

5th Oct 2012, 02:11

Thanks flying-spike, Dire Straits indeed. I was coming into Cairns from the north one day a long time ago on a special VFR clearance when I realised I'd strayed off the runway centre line and was heading for that big hill on the western side of the field that had suddenly loomed out of the mist. It wasn't overly serious and I corrected pretty quickly but it was just another example of marginal Wx conditions creating risk for the VFR pilot.

A reminder about fractus is always a good thing too. You see that stuff going past and you're very much in the wrong place at the wrong time...

Lookleft

5th Oct 2012, 02:15

I'm not surprised that you are confused by Brians post as it was a cheap shot at me.Any attempt to link the Norfolk thread with this tragedy is pathetic.

RenegadeMan

5th Oct 2012, 02:41

Mmmm....You're right Brian....extremely difficult. But we all need to talk about it. The cost to everyone when one of these accidents happens is so enormous. That they're so unnecessary is what's so galling and utterly tragic too.

(Thanks for your story too Miraz....glad you're still here to be able to tell us all about the G1000's blaring red screens after you'd dipped your toe into hell for a moment!)

markis10

5th Oct 2012, 03:09

Not sure if this might be a factor, AIRAC H27/12 effective next month has a correction for YMUB re name and location indicating its currently depicted wrong on the charts? As already mentioned, the NOTAM gets it wrong in terms of the restricted areas location referenced back to YMUB as far as its true bearing and distance.

Jabawocky

5th Oct 2012, 03:49

It is not correct on the Bundy VNC, I found this out about last Sunday as I flew over it.

OzRunways is a marvellous thing. So I compared this to the ERC/WAC and sure enough the VNC was wrong.

psycho joe

5th Oct 2012, 04:12

With all due respect to all here and the deceased, can we please stop referring to Australian terrain as " tiger country". The fact is that every coutntry around us contains Pilots who operate every day at low level among terrain that makes ours look like a billiard table, and whom dream of our relatively benign weather.

Possum1

5th Oct 2012, 04:20

The Brisbane/Sunshine Coast VTC does have an ala named Manumbar Homestead in the correct place. The ala marked on the Bundaberg VNC would appear to be the Sawmill/logging camp of the same name but you are right - there is no evidence of any ala there.

But about 7 nm to the SE, there is the above mentioned airstrip, a one-way airstrip of about 700m in length and clearly visible on the VTC, Google Maps or Google Earth and about 1.3nm from the crash site.

frigatebird

5th Oct 2012, 04:29

My, Oh, My....
Its all relative.. Just a figure of speech..Or are you an elitist?
No doubt there are Demure and Mundane areas in PNG and in the Himalayas as well....

What do we call your Location - 'ever spinning within the wheel' ?

markis10

5th Oct 2012, 04:31

Tiger Snakes, Tassie Tigers, no doubt its tiger country in my books!

Wally Mk2

5th Oct 2012, 04:40

'Joe' I guess compared to other countries we have a fairly flat landscape with good wx most of the time BUT.....yes there's always a but. You can drown in an inch of water you don't need to be in 30 meters of water to die!
An obstacle is an obstacle you can be killed by the only 3 mtr tree for a hundred miles out in a desert landscape if yr unlucky enough to hit it!

It looks like Des & his hapless pax got caught out & sadly died from the results of hitting trees in less than favorable wx conditions & he wasn't in the Himalayas when it happened & he wasn't even in PNG he was in Australia where our tress obscured by low cloud are just as bloody unforgiving as the rest the worlds trees!

Wmk2

psycho joe

5th Oct 2012, 04:54

You can drown in an inch of water...

Yes, and that inch of water shouldn't be referred to as a tsunami.

Point made.

RenegadeMan

5th Oct 2012, 04:59

CumulusGranitis is just as impenetrable here as it is in other places. Furthermore, given the prevalence of tigers in the Australian bush, it's an appropriate name.

("The member for spinning wheels has been overruled....I think the Ayes have it...."):oh:

Sven Langolier

5th Oct 2012, 05:03

Just a figure of speech..

Of course it is. And in everyday usage. And the listener knows exactly what it means.

The time it took to locate the Dragon in there speaks for itself.

MakeItHappenCaptain

5th Oct 2012, 05:22

Who's point?

Is that a retort and concession or a retort and self congratulation?:confused:

rotorblades

5th Oct 2012, 07:45

Please please can everyone not turn this thread into a personal squabbling match, take it to its own thread or do it by PM.
Let's keep this thread focused to what happened & why & lessons that can be taught & learnt.
All the mindless nitpicking & personal attacks are showing complete disrespect to Des & the other 5 souls onboard that lost their lives in this tragic accident

remoak

5th Oct 2012, 10:05

Amen to that!

Jabawocky

5th Oct 2012, 12:10

Hey rotorblades

Someone we have not thought to much about is your colleague.

How is he doing? I feel I know the few folk on that frequency like mates now, as many of us do no doubt.

I can only assume he has been hit hard and is getting some counselling or whatever is required.

You guys do a superb job under tough conditions at time. :D

Its about time we went flying again, get your hand in and perhaps another IFR flight so you see the other side again. I hope its been helpful in the past.

Please pass on my best wishes to the ATC plugged in on Monday arc.

rotorblades

5th Oct 2012, 13:12

Hey Jaba
I haven't seen him this week, but as I understand it it has been a bit shocking to him & To everyone at BN centre, me included . I didn't know Des that well but I knew of him & seen the dragon a few times & being local to CAB myself it's never good when one doesn't return.

ATC can be as stressful as being in the cockpit in a situation, we have the information but can do very little practical with affecting the outcome apart from providing verbal aid & alerting SAR.
I've had a few a/c get caught by IMC on frequency, all times thankfully had a successful outcome - managed to guide two to Williamtown & one force landed on a beach (poor sod was on his first solo x-country as well),
I do know that this dragon incident in particular has highlighted to several, how shall I put it - less VFR tolerant controllers of the importance of all flights in the area.

It would be good to meet up soon & get a refresher on your side of things, they've been very helpful in the past. I find both pilots & ATC can get very insular & not understand what both sides are trying to achieve (which invariably is the same thing in the end get aircraft from A to B ) & that's why I like meeting up with pilots, to make me & the ones I speak to at work better at what I/we do.

As for getting my hand in its been a while since I've been behind the yoke, & even then it was Aerobats
& Cherokees. Haven't been IFR in light ac for v long time, the last time ended in a belly landing on a ridge in the alps.

I'll certainly pass in your best wishes to the controller at BN.

And if any pilot wants a visit to BN Ctr just drop me a PM, we are always happy to have visitors

Rb

Jabawocky

5th Oct 2012, 13:20

Thanks for that.:ok:

Haven't been IFR in light ac for v long time, the last time ended in a belly landing on a ridge in the alps.

Forgot about YHBA and the meatbomber VFR in IMC <2 miles out your window:eek:?

C U Soon I hope.

gerry111

5th Oct 2012, 14:16

When descending through holes in cloud layers, the highest terrain usually appears to remain in cloud.

So it's pretty scary to then realise that one is flying within a blind valley.

Has anyone else noticed that?

Fortunately, I'm still alive!:=

rotorblades

5th Oct 2012, 15:18

Oh yeah forgot bout that!

The alps thing was a right buggers muddle & might serve some people here.
Heading downwards towards a swiss airport IFR (visual in VMC conditions) through the mountains, ATC ask if we would mind moving over to the north to let jet traffic through, we agree as long as we can have vectors due to approaching cloud cover & likeliness to lose VMC if sent north. So we get a vector & we clarify the level & grid lowest safe vs the route safe we were planning to use if VMC became unliely. Atc said level was okay. we then get vectored all over the joint rights the lefts left again then rights, (didn't have GPS). We now thoroughly confused as to where they're sending us and where we goingbut thinking its okay ATC have us.
Shortly followed by ATC saying traffic believed past you, lost radar contact with you resume own navigation. Oh **** moment hits as we now request to climb as we in cloud &
trying to determine where they've put us in high ground. We ask them what our last known position was & told they'd lost radar on us about 10 mins prior, but hadn't told us.
Anyway about the same time we burst through the layer of clouds in the climb skimmed the top of some fir trees & bellied in on a ridge line heading uphill, much to the shock of us & the goaty things enjoying their lunch before being rudely interrupted by a pa28 tilling the field.
Obviously ATC has got a lot better since then, but the pilot vowed never to give up situation awareness control completely to ATC again ;)

framer

5th Oct 2012, 20:02

By Jingos thats inredible! About as close as one can get aye. :eek:

Fantome

5th Oct 2012, 21:49

A dispiriting pall descends once more as it has often times past, for here we have a recurrent, grim reaperish curse. Nothing, but nothing, will ever drive it home to every single pilot, or pilot in the making, a complete and deeply personal understanding of the shocking price foolhardiness will exact for some, some day.

"Stay safe." "Drive safe." "Fly safe." At times how pitifully hollow the catch phrases ring.

"So long digger. Keep your powder dry." Then off he goes, to spread himself across the landscape. It's more than sad. It sickens and dismays to the very core. A cloud comes down and no birds sing.

"My heart aches, and a drowsy numbness pains my sense, as though of hemlock I had drunk, or emptied some dull opiate to the drains some minutes past, and Lethe-wards had sunk."

Let the last item of the pre take-off self-brief be -

"Occasion no grief to any living soul."

sixtiesrelic

5th Oct 2012, 22:45

Rotorblades, that experience will ensure you never do that sort of thing to anyone and when you become a trainer of abinitios (if you aren’t already, what with the mess that woman left behind her) it will sink into their minds indelibly right from the start.
Walking away from near death experiences is a wonderful training aid.

Sunfish

5th Oct 2012, 23:02

Psycho, ever seen Lerderderg Gorge?

Kharon

5th Oct 2012, 23:07

60's # 179 Walking away from near death experiences is a wonderful training aid. The notion of Immortality is a thing pilots need to loose, at an early age. When we were young things like mountain climbing, sailing, horses and motor bikes so often scared the crap out of us, that we were only ever really sure of one thing. You can get really hurt doing this. Thinking back, I went to a few funerals before getting anywhere near an aircraft. During the 'apprenticeship' period there were a couple more sad events to attend.

Sadly, there is no acceptable method of simulating shaking the skeletal, filthy hand of death. But until you have been there; or, accepted the fact that immortality is not granted at the tit, bold pilots will never become old pilots.

Selah.

VH-XXX

6th Oct 2012, 00:13

A terrifying flight it must have been.

It has come to light that one of the passengers called their workplace to speak to someone with flying experience that might be able to help them out. They must have been fully aware of what was happening. There would have been nothing worse.

RenegadeMan

6th Oct 2012, 05:24

I too read that one of the females onboard rang someone at Virgin Australia where she worked hoping maybe to be patched through to someone who could help. A truly awful realisation it must have been to know that all was seriously not well. My heart goes out to the families and friends (and the person that took that call if indeed that's what happened).

For me, after a tragedy like this, a prayer is "God give me the grace, wisdom and Truth to never find myself in such a situation & put my family or friends through such a thing".

We all have to be so vigilant not to fall into that false sense of security that can so easily come through pride, ego or any number of attributes of the human condition (not that I'm suggesting Des had succumbed to this). And like Kharon said, there's no way of simulating this stuff and the experience of losing someone close to you through a tragedy like this. The nature of life is that we just don't understand these types of things until we're directly involved (which is why as we speak there are bound to be dozens of street races going on in all different parts of the country involving teenage boys in hotted up cars who think they're **** hot drivers but in reality they probably have about 5% of the understanding of physics & what can go wrong with breaks & what a tyre blow out at speed can do & how innocent bystanders could unwittingly stray into their pathway, etc). Such is the nature of experience.

Thanks for your interactions Jaba & Rotorblades. They're hugely helpful. That story of yours Rotor is a further reminder of how easily a fowlup can happen. That you're here to tell us about it is a miracle in & of itself.

I really appreciate all that ATC does too. A friend I've been flying with for a long time has a son who's just been accepted in Airsevices Australia & is now in Melbourne commencing his ATC training. He has GFPT too & is very committed. I'm looking forward to seeing him become a great asset to aviation.

Ren

Vis 10k Plus

6th Oct 2012, 05:47

As we flew the Arbey Star to runway 34 in Melbourne on Thursday I commented on the amazing green countryside. I seems that even after countless times following the magenta line to Laverton I can still find something on the ground that I can't recall seeing before. As we swung into the home straight and met the bumps from the 30 knot northerly I commented that if I ever get bored from watching the ground go by from the window of an aeroplane I will know that it is time to retire. It was not until we got back to Brisbane a few hours later that I learned that one of my work colleagues was on the flight that is the subject of this thread.

I didn't know Jan well even though I saw her regularly. She was often the cheerful person who met us at the boarding gate with our flight plan in hand as we arrived with our morning coffee. We would exchange pleasantries and as we were of similar vintage I found it easy to chat with her. But time was allways limited by OTP considerations. And then hers would be the happy smile and cheery wave that sent us on our way as we pushed back from the aerobridge.

Many have shared their experiences on this forum. We all have memories of incidents which, even after many years, can spring to mind with a terrifying clarity that can still make us shiver. Mostly we will have memories of a few such incidents because as humans we are not very good at learning from our mistakes. We wonder how we survived when others did not. Perhaps we followed a bad decision by making a good decision and extricating ourselves from a crisis of our own making. Perhaps it was just blind luck. My mother, a woman of prayer, would say that God was looking after us. Generally our families will never know how close they came to experiencing the gut wrenching grief that the families of these three couples are feeling. Our thoughts are with them.

I did not know Des at all. Yet those who did know him have indicated that this was not a pilot who was a risk taker or who lacked experience flying in the VFR environment to which he was accustomed. Perhaps he simply succumbed to a human frailty which afflicts all of us from time to time. He made a mistake.

I will think of Jan when someone else waves me a cheery goodbye as we push off the bay. And even though I did not know her well, I will miss her.

May they rest in peace.

rotorblades

6th Oct 2012, 07:28

Thanks Ren
It only takes one bad decision in either of our worlds (ATC & pilot) to make things go wrong quickly & sometimes luck Isnt with us. And it doesn't matter whether one has little or a lot of experience, it happens to all of us at some time.
With mine it was just luck we were at roughly the same angle as the slope (so we didn't hit nose first) & the pilot didn't have time to try an evasive turn or we would've hit wingtip first & cartwheeled.

I've always said if my mistakes highlight it & stop it happening to just one other person, it's worth it.

I think someone else posted this comment but it is true:
"here by the grace of god go I"

VH-XXX

6th Oct 2012, 14:04

My heart goes out to the families and friends (and the person that took that call if indeed that's what happened

I heard that the poor girl was on her first day at work when she received that shocking phone call. If she needed help after, I'm sure they would offer it to her, they are a great employer like that.

Dora-9

6th Oct 2012, 20:13

This is a small collection of photographs which will hopefully convey what a popular and integral part Des was of the SE Qld vintage scene. I apologise for the variable quality.

“Barnstormers over Brisbane’, the Tiger Moth’s 75th/ Chipmunk’s 60th birthday flypast, August 2006:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Blithering/mnlphoto-12.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Blithering/mnlphotographybob-8.jpg

Ah, (maroon) de Havillands! Caboolture Air Show, May 2004:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Blithering/DH-FORM-12.jpg

The Bridal Party (with escorts) on their way to the Bolsover Wedding at Archerfield, November 2006:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Blithering/DSC01364.jpg

At the Antique Aircraft Association Fly-in, Narrandera April 2006:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Blithering/dragon-3.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Blithering/dragon-2.jpg

Remind you of a mother duck & her ducklings? Caboolture, 2010.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Blithering/cid_7F17BA2C-E4EA-4F50-975.jpg

We will miss him!

Kharon

6th Oct 2012, 20:28

Great pictures: Curious now – "RIAMA" could someone please explain the significance.

Addendum -
The story that is widely circulated is that the phrase was first spoken by the English evangelical preacher and martyr, John Bradford (circa 1510–1555). He is said to have uttered the variant of the expression - "There but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford", when seeing criminals being led to the scaffold.
Another, more modern expression – "there's them as done it; and, them as is gunna".

frigatebird

6th Oct 2012, 20:37

Always a favourite to photo, even to those of us who didn't know the pilot/owner personaly.

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy129/bird__photo/General/Riama.jpg

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy129/bird__photo/General/Riama2.jpg

Watts Bridge Fly-In a couple of years ago.

RenegadeMan

6th Oct 2012, 21:25

That was a great post Vis 10k Plus; it's always good to hear about people that have passed in an accident like this so they're not just a statistic. You brought some detail to the story that makes it all the more apparent what special responsibilities we're entrusted with as pilots

I just heard an interview with Des from a few years ago when he had the Dragon down here at Bankstown on Macca's Australia all Over radio program on the ABC. He talked about how the aircraft type had a history of accidents because it was such a workhorse often flown close to weight limits and on the edge of its performance capabilities. He was explaining how he'd had more powerful engines and better props fitted and how it now took less pax to stay well within limits. Finished with him talking about the importance of ensuring it was safe for his longevity too.

It was sad to hear him speaking so passionately but I was glad to have heard it too. I'll email Macca at the ABC to see if they can put that interview up as a podcast link so everyone here can hear it.

Thanks for the great photos frigatebird and Dora.

Ren

Delta kilo

7th Oct 2012, 01:25

You'll find an answer here, Kharon. 2012 De Havilland Dragon crash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_De_Havilland_Dragon_crash)

Ex FSO GRIFFO

7th Oct 2012, 14:06

Very Nice pics to remember 'The Man and His Machine'...et al....

Thankyou.

growahead

8th Oct 2012, 04:30

The stories of inadvertent VFR to VMC are interesting, I think most private pilots have had some sort of encounter. Most of these incidents developed quickly. I think an important aspect of this accident was that the pilot consciously chose to take his chances in IMC. Reports are that the aircraft circled for about 30 mins, then climbed into the cloud base. Whilst there is fuel remaining, continued holding gives a few advantages, eg the wx may improve sufficiently, assistance may arrive, additional advice could be forthcoming. By deciding to climb into cloud, the pilot is gambling that he might make it, but the stakes are huge. A forced landing into wind in this aircraft would have the GS back to probably 40 knots, giving a good chance of survival. We should always remember the huge responsibility we take on when we strap someone into our aircraft, and it's good to keep in the back of our minds, when it turns nasty, the insurance company takes over the ownership.

Fris B. Fairing

8th Oct 2012, 05:12

Kharon

RIAMA derives from the name of a friend of Ron Adair who founded Aircrafts Pty Ltd. His friend's name was Allan Mair. Mair spelled backwards is RIAM plus his initial A and you get RIAMA.

RIP Des and his friends

Fantome

8th Oct 2012, 05:32

RIAMA was probably also chosen because it ties in with all those Holyman and ANA aircraft with names such as KYEEMA and PENGANA and BUNGANA. There were about thirty such names given to the fleet over the years.

Aircrafts Pty Ltd, founded by RJS Adair in 1928, commenced a Brisbane - Toowoomba service the following year, then extended it's services through southern Queensland and northern NSW, till in 1949 the company morphed into Queensland Airlines Pty Ltd. Fleet lists show that Aircrafts Pty Ltd had two DH84s that had been named in like fashion, RIADA and RIAMA. The name reversals are obvious in both cases.

ps Just love the picture on the beach Trent, and the two gels dressed so summery.

The stories of inadvertent VFR to VMC are interesting. I think most private pilots have had some sort of encounter.

I think an important aspect of this accident was that the pilot consciously chose to take his chances in IMC.

Oh . . . so what enables you to reconstruct the flight with insight into what conscious thoughts occupied the pilot's mind between take-off and crash site?

And what have I and many others been doing wrong all these years, failing to grasp what makes "inadvertent VFR to VMC" so hazardous?

Trent 972

8th Oct 2012, 05:32

F B F will also be aware that Ron Adair gave his own name to another.
http://i521.photobucket.com/albums/w340/I_Did_It_Photos/riada.jpg

VH-XXX

8th Oct 2012, 06:36

Does anyone know where the rest of these aircraft are in the world, there is talk of 3 remaining?

I know where there is one of them in Melbourne but that's it.

India Four Two

8th Oct 2012, 07:28

Does anyone know where the rest of these aircraft are in the world

One in NZ (ZK-AXI):

Wings Over New Zealand - Dragon flight to the Mosquito Show (http://rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=airshow&thread=16884&page=1#163923)

and one in the UK (G-ECAN):

Dragon (http://www.nms.ac.uk/our_museums/museum_of_flight/whats_on/airshow/stars_of_the_show/dragon.aspx)

Any others?

Wally Mk2

8th Oct 2012, 07:46

I vaguely recall a Rapid in the back of an old hanger at MB many years ago owned I think by Maurice Rolfe whom was restoring it, gee I hope it was a rapid,am old but I don't wanna say too old just yet:E. I used to work with Maurice back in the 70's but something comes to mind about a Rapid.

There's a whole other debate on inadvertent IMC flight by VFR drivers so perhaps this thread isn't the place right now for such a discussion as am sure there are many still dumbfounded by this sad event IMC or no IMC.

Wmk2

ForkTailedDrKiller

8th Oct 2012, 08:05

gee I hope it was a rapid,am old but I don't wanna say too old just yethttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif.

Psssst, Wally!

"Rapide"!

You forgot the "e"!

Dr :8

fujii

8th Oct 2012, 08:32

Quote:
gee I hope it was a rapid,am old but I don't wanna say too old just yet.
Psssst, Wally!

"Rapide"!

You forgot the "e"!

He didn't forget the E, he put it in hanger. (hangAr)

prospector

8th Oct 2012, 08:34

And the "e" is needed, they certainly were not rapid.

VH-XXX

8th Oct 2012, 08:45

I vaguely recall a Rapid in the back of an old hanger at MB many years ago owned I think by Maurice Rolfe whom was restoring it, gee I hope it was a rapid

Yep, that's the one. Looked like it wasn't far off flying the last time I saw her a few years back - probably just a matter of priorities.

Kharon

8th Oct 2012, 08:51

FBS # 194 - RIAMA derives from the name of a friend of Ron Adair who founded Aircrafts Pty Ltd. His friend's name was Allan Mair. Mair spelled backwards is RIAM plus his initial A and you get RIAMA. Fantome # 195 - Aircrafts Pty Ltd, founded by RJS Adair in 1928, commenced a Brisbane - Toowoomba service the following year, etc. Gents, I thank you. Didn't know Des, but I know the type; and, that name meant something to him. The history and associations of the name are important; they provide an insight to the mind of a hopeless, no holds barred aviator. We loose much when we loose men like these, a caring for things that were and an ability to deal with things as they are.

I shall do more homework; and, unless someone can adequately explain the deep connection: attempt to at least understand the passion, dedication, respect and love, one man had for the greatest game of all: - flight.

Tailwinds and Godspeed to all of this mans character, a rare and much needed icon amongst the dross we now (laughingly) call 'aviation'.

Fantome

8th Oct 2012, 09:57

So the old girl was up for a taxi recently but will not take to the air again for a while due CASA wrangles ('You need two emergency exists Maurice. You might need to cut a hole in the roof'), and sundry work restraints that hold up completion. It will indeed be a great day when she lifts off after decades of work since imported from UK as a basket case. Mac Job long ago was lined up to do the first post restoration flight but now has to decline on grounds of excessive seniority. "Maurice" he'd say "What on earth has been keeping you?"

growahead

8th Oct 2012, 11:24

Fantome. I knew there would be one, and it's you. To answer your first question; Noone can possibly ever reconstruct the pilot's thoughts, not even the coroner, but that won't stop the discussion. We can assess the evidence and make a considered opinion, just that. The evidence that I have read is that the acft circled for 30 minutes, and then climbed into cloud. It is reasonable to deduce that the climb into cloud was a conscious act. The reasons he made this choice are infinite, but the realists among us have fairly good ideas why that choice was made. Funny how so many like to slang off at certain cultures because of "loss of face", but I'd suggest that many from our wonderful AS heritage are just as prone, in a different way. In your other question, I'm afraid you get a fail for grade 4 English comprehension; the whole point of my post was contemplating deliberate VMC to IMC, not inadvertent VMC to IMC. What have you been doing that's wrong? Perhaps nothing, perhaps everything, and you've been lucky. I know I've been in this situation several times, recognised it, acted quickly, and had a safe return. So, you may be making great choices, or enjoying great luck. So sad you seem to take it so personally. And for the last part of that question, I will assume that you do grasp the hazards of unqualified IMC flight, I never suggested that anyone doesn't. I'm sure the pilot was a wonderful person. By definition, because the acft did not make it to destination safely, the pic duties were for some reason not executed satisfactorily. We all make mistakes, most times we are lucky. I think there is a difference between making a mistake, and taking a chance, especially when it risks other innocents. As an analogy; A driver with my kids in the car makes an error such as misjudging the closing speed of traffic, has a headon and wipes out the family-an error, sad, but it happens; another driver, my kids on board, chooses to make a high risk overtake, on a corner or crest, and the risks of corner/crests are well known, and has the headon. In my opinion, quite a different scenario. The second driver knew the risks, but gambled not only his own life, but that of others. Sorry, doesn't cut it with me.
We can be precious, but I've found in many decades of aviation, that you are only fooling yourself if you can't call it as it is. The pilot was a wonderful person, of that there is no doubt. We all talk, in the aeroclub bar, in our houses, at work or whereever, so what's the big deal about pprune? If the dialog has just a slight chance of making someone down the track think twice about deliberate flight into IMC, or other questionable choices, it could be worth the effort. We all make mistakes, most times we're lucky. Funnily enough, I probably know you pretty well, what a small world.

aroa

8th Oct 2012, 11:56

Growahead has a point.

With the collosal amount of publicity/interest given to this tragic event, then if just one VFRer heeds the terrible lesson and keeps their ar$e intact... then all the PR has been of use.:ok:

You see it time and again on the TV, a heap of junk in a paddock because "holding" in crap weather, or pushing on, goes wrong when just a bent aircraft and the ability to walk away would have been a better option. And certainly not the final one.

The great unknown in this sad case is the thinking behind the decision made.
We might suppose a reason... we will never know.

But we can certainly learn by the tragic mistakes of others.

If there is anything that I have learnt over the decades...Know thy weather and seriously digest the stories in old crash comics.
You can feature there so easily yourself.!! :(

A37575

8th Oct 2012, 13:32

and seriously digest the stories in old crash comics.
You can feature there so easily yourself.!!

First find the old crash comics - those written by Mac Job back in the days when Air Safety Digest was the doyen of the crash comics and were devoured by enthusiastic pilots. I know - Ebay might have some?

Wally Mk2

8th Oct 2012, 13:48

...............yeah okay you speeling Nazi's:E..here's yr ........'e':)

Can't believe that RAPIDe is still under resto..............Maurice must be about a 100 by now beard & all (if he still has it!)

Ah the good 'ole days at Exec's.......Knotty (RIP), Maurice, George (GA8 George) Richard, Alan P & the many others I can't recall at this time where we all talked about restoring many an old plane.............keep at it Maurice there's gotta be a medal in it for you there somewhere for being persistent:ok:

Wmk2

Fantome

8th Oct 2012, 15:51

So sad you seem to take it so personally.

Not for a minute. The devil in me took a twist. I cannot tease the topic out
as lucidly as you and gladly (even humbly) resume seat, shut trap.

RenegadeMan

8th Oct 2012, 18:23

Growahead, thanks for your posts; you've made some good points and some of your analogies add usefully to the discussion. In regards to this:

I think an important aspect of this accident was that the pilot consciously chose to take his chances in IMC. Reports are that the aircraft circled for about 30 mins, then climbed into the cloud base.

You could be correct. There could have been a conscious choice along the lines of "Okay well this holding I've been doing for 30 minutes now is not working out. I'd be better off going up into the cloud and heading further towards home and hopefully exit the cloud a little further along". Clearly a conscious choice to take the flight into IMC and one that carried with it very serious consequences for which we could all shake our heads with the benefit of hindsight (especially when considering what the eventual outcome was) and think, "Mmm; wasn't the right thing to do...."

Or you might not be framing this whole scenario correctly either. What I think Fantome was getting at Oh . . . so what enables you to reconstruct the flight with insight into what conscious thoughts occupied the pilot's mind between take-off and crash site?

And what have I and many others been doing wrong all these years, failing to grasp what makes "inadvertent VFR to VMC" so hazardous? is that the reality is likely to be far more complex and less black and white. There are "reports" of the aircraft "holding" for 30 minutes and then going into cloud. Like so many things, the reality is that we just will never know what was actually happening in the cockpit of that aircraft or the mind of the pilot when the aircraft was sighted circling near the Borumba Dam area and then went into cloud. He may have been in a terrible high terrain situation flying low with the circling radius being squeezed by some low hanging mist and suddenly faced with quick flashes of in and out of IMC whilst down low at steep bank levels with hills all around. The sudden realisation that he was going to be IMC any moment whether he liked it or not may have resulted in him levelling the wings, applying full power and ascending into the cloud to climb away from the rapidly deteriorating visual situation where he was circling that may have offered nothing but a very rough ground high speed crash with poor forward visibility or a belief that he was likely to impact one of the hills during a turn because his ability to see properly was so hampered, he couldn't make out the hills clearly and his turning radius was getting dangerously tight (or dozens of other possible scenarios that none of us may even think of....)

It may have all happened in a few murky seconds. Visual one moment, flashing in and out of cloud the next. No time to go for a sudden forced landing and certainly not survivable ground. Next thing; full power, wings level, keep it straight, up he went to make a choice for something less dangerous at that very moment (flight into IMC) than going for a less than 'controlled' crash. The time critical, highly unstable and uncertain world of marginal VFR conditions down low in rough terrain is a terrible place to find yourself and these sudden extreme decisions are thrust upon you with little preparedness or mental capacity for the weighing up of options.

We certainly all should think about what brought him to that critical point; circling low in bad conditions that he eventually flew away from into IMC (and then ultimately to a fatal crash site). It's all the decisions prior to that point that are likely to be where this accident's real genesis lies. Right back to the decision to go to Monto for the weekend with passengers who most likely needed to be back for the Monday, and when they couldn't get back on the Sunday afternoon and then stayed over probably needed to be back even more on Monday afternoon to go to work or for other commitments in Brisbane on the Tuesday (maybe not all of them but Jan who worked at Virgin Australia may have been due back at work and this would have created additional pressure).

I guess what I'm saying is that it's very easy to talk about a pilot's choices (post fatal crash), in a manner that's suggestive of the pilot making a black and white decision to do something they weren't qualified to do and then surmising that the entire event hinged on this one bad call i.e. "flight into IMC when the pilot wasn't IFR rated". This type of thinking is what's facilitated the rise of the term "pilot error" this past century or more since aircraft started dropping out of the sky. A notion that a single error caused the accident and it was "the pilot's fault". As we've become more aware of human factors in aviation accidents, things like the Swiss cheese model have started to bring awareness that a whole series of events facilitate and allow an accident scenario to develop and be fulfilled.

(From rereading your post growahead it's fairly clear you're already pretty aware of this stuff. I'm just articulating it here for the benefit of the overall discussion and an acknowledgement of how a forum like this can be very beneficial but also the limitations of people's writing styles can suggest notions that may not be accurate too.)

I think the big big wake up call here is the need to teach pilots the skills to recognise the beginnings of a likely accident sequence and how to nip it in the bud very early. As I've noted in a previous post on this thread, I long ago learnt that taking people and yourself away for a weekend where you have to get back in order for you or your passengers to fulfil some crucial duty the next day (like going to a job or needing to be there for family, etc) is a pressure for the VFR pilot that is just too likely to adversely affect your decision making and result in flight into IMC. And whether it's inadvertent or deliberate is not so much the issue; it's all the pressure to perform, complete the mission, demonstrate your great pilot competency, maintain that reputation as 'an excellent pilot' and get everyone home on time that lines the holes up ready for disaster to take over. It's in this area where we need to get people thinking about how to avoid needing to then make a life or death decision to go into IMC because they've found themselves trapped in a scud running corner and have no other option.

Ren

Fantome

9th Oct 2012, 20:29

Valuable advice. As most of us know and concede it's a time worn subject, one that has been aired over and over again. Still, to have a look over that aforementioned abyss and survive is an experience equalling no other in terms of making the deepest and most lasting impression as to one's mortality.

Not a learning or teaching method to be put into the syllabus. The safe way advocated today is to lead the would be intrepid birdman through a course in Human Factors so as to shield him and anybody else from the risks inherent in subscribing to the school of hard knocks and the prospect of death by misadventure.

The skipper of a square rigger or the hard bitten old DC-3 skipper showing the new to the game, cocky whippersnapper the ropes, ( a la Gann in "Fate is the Hunter"), men who've seen it all and come through scarred and so much the wiser, are entirely relics of a past age. Only in books can anyone get a taste today of the era and of the lore, the absorption of the latter being once essential to getting anywhere before the mast or into the left seat of those wondrous round engined machines.

Ossie Osgood, up in Darwin, used to require and charge his every new pilot recruit to read through a prescribed list of books written by those pilots who had sat down and recounted in graphic detail how they survived the odds. If they were slack about following Ossie's credo and failed to answer a few questions from Ossie as to how Chichester found Lord Howe for instance, then their days with Arnhem Air Charter were numbered.

Thinking of Des, though a considerable remove from those pioneers that Gann sought to immortalise, as in his long list of those who perished that others might learn and endure, and as other posters here have touched on, the lessons to be learnt, the message to be interpreted, is cogent, perennial and essential, and one that many tied up in aviation in Australia today have undertaken to conscientiously pass on in any way they can.

There was a missionary aviation chief pilot once upon a time in PNG who knew all this, in his bones, in his head and in his heart. Any new arrival about to be inducted into the ways of survival in the unforgiving work environment ahead of him, was first taken to the cemetery where he would be shown sundry head-stones and told in graphic detail the circumstances that entrapped the deceased. In this there is a parallel in those attempts to get through to kids and others on dangerous driving charges being taken into the mortuary to see first hand what carnage really looks like.

You can train a dog by shock treatment to modify it's behaviour. You can teach a lion to jump through a hoop. You can lead a horse to water, but . . .. .. . (Thinks . .. . . there were quite a few old sky pilots of the genus aviatus who wore the 'dog collar', but whether of the order of Saint Zapper or not, F Nose.)

172driver

9th Oct 2012, 21:21

Does anyone know what the cloud tops were that day?

Jabawocky

9th Oct 2012, 23:06

Just to the north of there they were rising up from 6000ish up near Gladstone, and near Maryborough up to 7500 and becoming 8/8ths. After that I had decided to stay VFR and go under, so I have no facts on any closer, but it could have been getting more like 9000' as a guess.

morno was in the hold at MLY at the time. He might remember.

morno

10th Oct 2012, 10:38

Around FL130.

morno

RenegadeMan

10th Oct 2012, 18:22

Crikey Fantome, for someone who previously stated I cannot tease the topic out as lucidly... you sure added some poetically descriptive thoughts and concepts to the discussion! I never read "Fate is the Hunter" but am sourcing a copy. Some reviews written on Amazon talk about people owning well worn copies they've gone back to again and again.

Re the mention of Rapide a few posts back , I'm surprised no one picked up that the DeHavilland Dragon Rapide was the DH89, a model that was built after the DH84 Dragon, Des' aircraft (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

Ren

rotorblades

10th Oct 2012, 20:28

You're correct Ren, the Rapide is the 89 Des' was an 84.
The Rapide was really only an updated variant of the original dragon with better performance & more powerful engines....

Dora-9

10th Oct 2012, 22:20

..and totally different wings, propellers and undercarriage! Other then an identical fuselage and tail group, arguably a bit more than an updated Dragon..

MakeItHappenCaptain

10th Oct 2012, 22:33

Fantome,

Fate's an old favourite, but can you elaborate on the list of books you mentioned?

Lookleft

11th Oct 2012, 01:08

Slightly off topic but wasn't the Rapide developed so that Qantas could fly from Bne to Sin then Imperial did the rest back to London. The start of the Kanagaroo Route.

Dora-9

11th Oct 2012, 01:44

I think that was the DH.86 (a sort of dangerous 4-engined Rapide)...

prospector

11th Oct 2012, 02:18

http://www.ozatwar.com/ozcrashes/qld115.htm

They may well have been, and perhaps for the same reason.

rotorblades

11th Oct 2012, 09:23

Reply deleted out of respect for everyone.....

172driver

11th Oct 2012, 11:05

Around FL130.

morno

Thanks, morno. Over-the-top therefore not an option :(

Jabawocky

11th Oct 2012, 12:56

Hey rotor, hw about I introduce you to Dora one day, he might even take us both for a lap in his glorious Chippy, and then you two can thrash it out. :ok:

Deaf

11th Oct 2012, 13:42

Nasty point to raise but trapped in valley IMC above or similar, fuel short etc. Choices are:

A - Land and that may be pick a gap between trees in small space and walk (crawl) from the wreck.

B - Mix VFR and IFR

How much does the flying machine count? Will a rental or something you have years building or rebuilding (maybe historically significant) influence the A/B decision

Dora-9

11th Oct 2012, 19:28

Memorial Service today at 2 pm for the six victims at Minippi Parklands, Stanton Road West, Tingalpa.

This is the field from which Des' father operated his Dragons.

BNE ATC have vetoed the proposed Vintage Flypast - given the location this is not entirely unsurprising I guess.

HBMikey

11th Oct 2012, 23:23

I only ever spoke to Des briefly, but it is evident from the posts on this thread and the way he kept that aircraft so beautifully maintained and was so willing to share his passion that he was a generous soul. I would ask if there is any request from the families in relation to donations in lieu of flowers etc. etc. to a charity of their choice. I haven't seen any notices other than the memorial service at Tingalpa.

sixtiesrelic

12th Oct 2012, 05:27

Well if there's anything over at Caboolture at tome time give us some forwarning. I'd like to pay my respects.

rotorblades

12th Oct 2012, 06:10

I'd like to echo the 'relics statement/request.
I would like to pass on my respect & condolences from me & everyone at BN centre.

ozleckie

12th Oct 2012, 07:41

A massive crowd at the memorial service today

The flypast would have been cancelled anyway because of the very high winds

RIP all.

Dora-9

12th Oct 2012, 20:01

A massive crowd at the memorial service today
Indeed there was. Grief is a very personal business, so I was surprised/overwhelmed by the numbers attending. The six touched many lives...

I'm informed that ATC relented around 12:30, far too late to organize the flypast, but it was too windy anyway.

Mhr

17th Oct 2012, 11:16

...she was weighed today

Rotor Work

7th Nov 2012, 23:27

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/4037267/AO-2012-130%20Prelim.pdf

ATSB PRELIMINARY REPORT RELEASED TODAY
Fly Safe
RW

spinex

8th Nov 2012, 00:08

Thanks RW - geez that makes for chilling reading, Morno and others probably had some appreciation of how long it went on for, but I had the impression it had gone pearshaped fairly quickly and then all over.....

Poor blighters. If anything a lesson in trusting what your eyes are telling you rather than hoping that the earlier, more benign forecast was accurate.

Jabawocky

8th Nov 2012, 02:16

That report is rather hair raising.

What is surprising is he flew in IMC for a lot longer than 178 seconds. A remarkable effort that could well have resulted in a safe out come had they been able to fly west a bit and let down.

So close yet so far. :sad:

VH-XXX

8th Nov 2012, 03:08

What is frustrating is how many times that we read in these ATSB reports that the last time the pilot flew on instruments was when they gained their PPL many years ago. Very very frustrating when it's so easy to pop under the hood for a lengthy period during your AFR or similar.

ForkTailedDrKiller

8th Nov 2012, 05:38

I have often wondered who thought it was a good idea to reduce the amount of IF required for a PPL from 5 hrs to 3 hrs?

Dr :8

Clearedtoreenter

8th Nov 2012, 05:58

I have often wondered who thought it was a good idea to reduce the amount of IF required for a PPL from 5 hrs to 3 hrs?

Might not make too much difference if the last time you did any was 1998?

What is frustrating is how many times that we read in these ATSB reports that the last time the pilot flew on instruments was when they gained their PPL many years ago. Very very frustrating when it's so easy to pop under the hood for a lengthy period during your AFR or similar.

Or just a few ILSs on MS flight sim from time to time - even better if your school has synthetic trainer or sim... much cheaper than in a plane and it all helps.

Jabawocky

8th Nov 2012, 06:18

15 mins at each BFR under the hood, holding headings climbing turns.......

There is always the thought that it only encourages folk to push on more thinking they can.

Double edged sword.

VH-XXX

8th Nov 2012, 07:13

Isn't it 2 hours now Dr., down from 5?? Even worse....

ForkTailedDrKiller

8th Nov 2012, 08:37

Isn't it 2 hours now Dr., down from 5?? Even worse.... Back in the old days when I did my PPL (1973), you required 3 hrs IF prior to taking the Restricted PPL test, and a further 2 hrs (done under the guise of "Nav 5") as one of the seven navs required for lifting the restriction on the RPPL to give you your Unrestricted PPL.

Dr :8

Lookleft

8th Nov 2012, 08:41

Isn't that why the PIFR was introduced so that PPL's could get an instrument rating that wasn't going to be expensive or currency dependent?

When I was an instructor and I got to this part of the syllabus the first thing I did was make the student close his/her eyes and fly the plane. When it invariably started to wind itself up into a spiral dive I would ask them to open their eyes. The resultant gasp and "jump" as they saw the picture out the window was hopefully enough to make them realise that the 3 hours they were about to do would not be enough to keep them alive if they did get into cloud.

MakeItHappenCaptain

9th Nov 2012, 03:36

Isn't that why the PIFR was introduced so that PPL's could get an instrument rating that wasn't going to be expensive or currency dependent?

Always thought it was because you weren't going to kill that many people if you buried it while shooting an approach 18mths after you last had a go at it.:E

CHAIRMAN

9th Nov 2012, 11:39

You're right Captain.
But back in 1985, when i wanted to get a CIR in a single, I was almost laughed at...............CIR's were only for real pilots that flew twins.
I also saw many pilots lining up for renewals in twins that couldn't afford to fly them between renewals and were that far behind the aircraft, that I stuck with my single rating, since that's what I flew. and reckoned I was a lot safer.
At that time the CIR was a hard slog, and particularly the theory was designed to discourage all but the totally committed - there were several I knew that did much of the flying, couldn't be bothered with the theory, and blasted off nonetheless into IFR. Idiots of course, but they had no other option than the full CIR theory course to obtain any kind of instrument rating.
I got the rating for my private/business flying safety and kept it current for 20 years. My flying these days is VFR. I have a PIFR but would never use it in anger without getting current, and a check ride.
I reckon the PIFR is a good thing........the intent behind it is good...........but it's not pushed by the schools, probably because most of the newbie instructors reckon it's for wimps.
Would be interesting to see the stats for PIFR's issued compared to CIR's.
Either of these ratings will reinforce the value of recency to remain safe.

PIFR is a damn sight better than 3 hrs IF for a private licence.

Jabawocky

9th Nov 2012, 13:03

:D

And to get my CIR current again, with a PIFR and PVT ops....I can.

Flying to CIR standards is the end game, but at times with good weather, is a bit harder, and a month or so may not make that much difference.

I set higher personal standards than some, and a CIR renewal is one way of doing so.

If you have to ask....you would not understand.

Clearedtoreenter

9th Nov 2012, 17:31

I reckon the PIFR is a good thing........the intent behind it is good...........but it's not pushed by the schools, probably because most of the newbie instructors reckon it's for wimps.

There maybe truth in that but a lot of newbie instructors are not qualified to teach that stuff and don't have either a PIFR or CIR themselves anyway.

I find the hurdle that puts a lot of folk off is also the exam and obtaining decent ground training without just being left with Thom or Tait to entertain yourself night after night. Self study is not an easy way to motivate youself. There just is no the demand for viable class sizes in most schools. Some schools are insisting on the IREX, even for PIFR, which is a massive overkill in my view.

It's really not that difficult for a VFR PPL to learn and maintain a skill to keep their aeroplane the right way up in cloud for an emergency situation and be able to climb to a safe height where they can get some help. But they have to be first motivated and taught to do that. I'm not suggesting they could be shooting ILSs down to minima every trip of course... But the worst thing we can do when we have inadvertently strayed into the poo and its down below the hill tops is be in amongst it, desperately trying to stay visual. Yes, VFR pilots do need to learn to stay well away from that situation, but when we get 'sucked in', perhaps by get-home-itis or a unforecast weather situation, there are very few options other than hoping on a wing and a prayer that we can stay visual. In too many cases, that continues to prove impossible.

VH-XXX

19th Dec 2013, 01:15

Investigation: AO-2012-130 - VFR flight into IMC involving de Havilland DH-84 Dragon VH-UXG, 36 km SW of Gympie, Qld, 1 October 2012 (http://atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2012/aair/ao-2012-130.aspx)

Jabawocky

19th Dec 2013, 03:54

had about 1 hour’s endurance.10 At about 1357 the pilot of the SAR helicopter requested via relay
through the pilot of another aircraft that the pilot of UXG change from 129.0 MHz to 121.5 MHz.
The pilot of UXG reportedly confirmed the frequency change and the crew of a commercial flight
later reported to ATC that they had received a transmission from UXG on 121.5 MHz. The SAR
helicopter continued to receive the PLB tone on 121.5 MHz but no voice transmissions. No
recordings of transmissions on 121.5 MHz were available.

Why on earth would you ask a pilot in distress to switch to a frequency that has the very beacon you asked them to with on? Surely that would be the kind of distraction the poor pilot did not need, and that emergency tone is scary enough let alone when you are in trouble and screeching in your headset.

If this is some kind of AUSAR SOP it needs to change.

Then back to the area frequency…………

Then an attempt to get another frequency change to 123.45, all the while the pilot is struggling in IMC. Des managed to keep this thing flying for a long time in IMC, I can only wonder what the extra workload of frequency changing did to his workload. Single Pilot IFR hand flying in cloud is hard enough when trained. This might have been the bit that broke him. I hope everyone learns something from this even if it was not the cause of the lost control.

:sad:

PS Before anyone gets all upset, I am not slagging the help crew who were trying their hardest to help in a bad situation. Just a lesson to be learned here.

Tomahawk38

19th Dec 2013, 04:15

apparently the AUSAR guys were struggling to hear voice transmissions on 121.5 due to the locator beacon tone in the background (according to the report)...

Creampuff

19th Dec 2013, 04:36

Why on earth would you ask a pilot in distress to switch to a frequency that has the very beacon you asked them to with on?I’m not an expert, but perhaps it’s because the homing technology on the search assets is tuned only to 121.5. AMSA might be able to confirm. :confused:

VH-XXX

19th Dec 2013, 05:13

No it doesn't make a lot of sense, but note that a PASSENGER activated the beacon and that passenger may have not been under the control of the pilot. A single pilot sits up the front well away from the passengers. In the mean time one of the passengers is calling up the Virgin AMCO office for assistance and the others who knows, perhaps activating their ELT.

Following a request from ATC at 1336, someone on board UXG activated a personal locator

See above.

The PLB also produced an ultra high frequency (UHF) 406 MHz digital beacon that was received by SAR satellites, and an audible tone that could be heard in the background of some of the radio calls made by the pilot of UXG.

It would not be unexpected that a portable PLB could be heard through a transmission from an Icom 210's transmissions due to the proximity of the transmitter aerial. I know that my PLB interferes with my VHF when in test mode.

At about 1357 the pilot of the SAR helicopter requested via relay
through the pilot of another aircraft that the pilot of UXG change from 129.0 MHz to 121.5 MHz.

It does seem strange that 21 minutes after the beacon is activated that SAR would request the pilot to change to 121.5.....

The pilot of UXG reportedly confirmed the frequency change and the crew of a commercial flight later reported to ATC that they had received a transmission from UXG on 121.5 MHz. The SAR elicopter continued to receive the PLB tone on 121.5 MHz but no voice transmissions.

As expected really.

Perhaps this is why the AMSA / SAR review is happening... maybe they realised that their response was incorrect on this occasion (purely based on what I'm reading)

Flying Binghi

19th Dec 2013, 06:11

Some things that stand out to me from the report...

Pg 22: ...High workload leads to a reduction in the number of information sources an individual will search, and the frequency or amount of time these sources are checked (Staal 2004). It can result in an individual’s performance on some tasks degrading, tasks being performed with simpler or less comprehensive strategies, or tasks being shed completely...

Pg 27: ...During the IFER, some ATC transmissions combined multiple requests for information and/or actions and UXG’s pilot generally responded to only one of the items...

page 34: (my bold) ...the aircraft’s radio was located low and forward of the control column, the pilot would have needed to reach forward and down, and possibly to one side, in order to see and manipulate the equipment. If in cloud and reliant on the aircraft’s primary flight instruments to maintain aircraft control, any head movement, inadvertent control movement, or diversion of attention away from those instruments would have interrupted the pilot’s instrument scan and affected his ability to maintain the aircraft’s attitude.

The pilot acknowledged a request to change radio frequencies shortly before the accident. However, the ATSB was unable to determine whether attempting to change radio frequencies contributed to spatial disorientation or some other problem (such as task shedding), which in turn led to the pilot being unable to complete the action. Alternatively, any subsequent transmissions from the aircraft may have been blocked by terrain, or the pilot may have tuned to a frequency that was not monitored, or he may not have actually made any transmissions...

http://atsb.gov.au/media/4478740/ao-2012-130_final.pdf

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