Female Pilots

[Yamma]

Sorry I don't mean to offend but just flew with a female FO.

3, 4, 5, 6 day patterns away from your very young kids.....seriously how do you do it??!!

Life experiences, life experiences. And then to have the audacity to say "you live in DB....you need to get out" are you for real?:eek:

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

Not so sure about the "young kids"

Aren't they all lesbos???:ok:

[Five Green]

Your all class Ad P

Yama

I guess you are trying to be somewhat sympathetic ? As a male is it easier to be away from one's family ? Pretty last century there Yammy...........

Love it when posts like these shine such a positive light on our profession !

[trident-too]

Gee Yamma, what f***ing century you in?

[SMOC]

Shame we don't have 1st world labour laws that allow proper maternity leave for both mum and dad.

[bugsquash1]

Troll alert

[broadband circuit]

Without wanting to take sides, anyone who's been here for more than about 5 years, and has any semblance of a memory will recall that in some of our more "industrial" times, most of the female pilots have shown infinitely more spine than a lot of the male pilots.

[Cavallier]

Most of the female f/o s and the two female captains on the 744 are a perfumed breath of fresh air on the fleet. Easy day out with no aggression and egos unlike a lot of the other tossers on the fleet!!!

The Cav

[etopsmonkey]

Don't be so quick to jump all over Yamma. I think he/she has a very valid question. It is human/natural evolution that women are the ones taking care of the kid(s) and family, while men go out to the hunting/gathering. Men are "evolved" to be away from home for days at a time, while women are "evolved" to be at home almost all the time with the kids. This has been true for thousands of years. Just because in the last 40 or so years that women has become more visible and capable in the workforce, doesn't void the history of natural evolution. Until human kind have X thousands years of history of the reverse (where women are the hunter/gatherers, and men are the caregiver), I think it is appropriate to exam Yamma's question.

I am not saying the women must stay at home and bear children, it is perfectly okay for a woman to decide not to have kids and pursue a career. However, I believe Yamma's question relates to female pilots with kid(s) ... how can the female pilots with child(ren) overcome with their maternal instinct to be away from home for X days at a time.

Question for the young female cadets/SO/FO here: right now, most of you are probably in your mid/late-20's, and maybe contemplating about starting a family and have kids before mid/late-30's ... do you REALLY/HONESTLY see yourself as able to have BOTH (piloting career, and family/kids)? In reality, you can only choose one. Are you willing to sacrifice a potential family for a career (especially with "caring" company)? (Well, this question can also apply to male pilots, who are thinking of coming to HK to work for a caring company) Being a pilot or cabin crew is not family-friendly. (Being very stereotypical here: most of the cabin crew just see their job as a "temp" job and not a career - a chance to travel and see the world before settling down. Or even as a mean to an end - which is to find that CN or First Class passenger and get married off.)

Do not get me wrong. I am all for women equity in every aspect of life and society. In fact, I think women and men as just as good decision makers and leaders ... it all has to do with the individual, and not the individual's gender.

Sorry, if I offended anyone here. Definitely not my intention. I am looking at this subject from a psychology, human evolution point of view. If I did offend any, I sincerely apologize.

[hongkongfooey]

If she's based in Sydney she's being a hell of a lot kinder to her kids making them do without her for a few days rather than making them suck pollution 24/7.
Just saying......

[Oasis]

Some of you guys make me sick.
Natural evolution? get with the times man!
It's no worse that the woman is gone from home 6 days, than the the guy is.

The ladies in CX are great pilots with passion for the profession, we're all in it together.

We've got women running countries, large public companies etc, don't you have a tv?

I feel embarrassed for what has been said here, hope the ladies realize this is a small minority with these opinions.

[fastflaps40]

Oasis

All was going well with your post, until

“…great pilots with passion for the profession, we're all in it together.”

We are all in what together?:confused:

Basically children raised by helpers.

Ultimately a lot of empty kitchens/homes.:(

[etopsmonkey]

Oasis, I'm not saying that female pilots are not capable and passionate about the profession. As I mentioned in my post, I am person's capabilities all has to do with the individual, and not the individual's gender. I do realize there are women ceo and political leaders. The question of this post is not whether woman are capable in their profession.

The question here is how come women pursue a family and pilot career at the same time. Of course, there are exceptions, but for the vast majority you can choose one or the other.

This is an anonymous forum, we can skip being so politically correct

[anotherbusdriver]

This has to be a wind up. Surely???!!!

[Oval3Holer]

If neither the mother nor the father can stay home to raise the kid(s), there should BE no kid(s).

Too many people now want to pursue a career AND have kids. If a woman cannot be fulfilled by being a mother, she should not BE a mother.

If both parents have to work because of MONEY issues, there is something wrong with their living/spending priorities.

[anotherbusdriver]

Shame, shame, shame.

Moderators please delete this thread.

[hongkongfooey]

Good call Oval, basically comes down to greed.
A bit like the " how can you possibly survive on 160K AUD a year " brigade

[3FL Woe]

I would take any female Captain or any female FO every single time over many of the egomaniac Check Captains I have flown with. I have flow with nearly all women on my fleet & about half of the "Check Captains".

Like most sane people, I would take professionalism, friendliness & good CRM over finishing a pattern with someone who has me heading home & feeling like I should be looking for another job.

[LongTimeInCX]

I don't see any 'shame, shame, shame' in discussing the issue.
Apart from the 'flaps' comment, which was below the belt, other people on both sides make some valid comments.

It is an undeniable fact that our environment, especially at the front end, is male dominated, and 25 years ago, females infiltrating our male bastion were rare. These days less so, and whether it's good or bad depends on the individual.
As for mums with kids flying, and it's a generalization based on a small cross-section, but whether it's the maturity of having kids, or that in general they have to be just that more organized than us fathers who walk out the door and leave those problems for our wives, but I've found they are better to fly with than some of what others may term silly young girls, and for that matter some of the guys.
And as for time with the kids, yes there are many days away, but that I believe is well made up by periods of time with them back at home between patterns.

So as far as this myth goes - busted!

[Oasis]

What about flight attendants, they should stay home too then?
They are often flying more than we are, those poor kids!!!

As long as they are loved and supported theill be fine, you don't have to hover over them 24/7...

[Oval3Holer]

Skippers? http://www.prlog.org/10418597-captain-edward-smith.jpg

[CokeZero]

3FL Woe

But you have to remember that most of STC's are bi-polar. So naturally they appear fine one day and crazy fanatic's the next.

CZ

[Oval3Holer]

Don't pluralize using an apostrophe! Who started that sh!t?

[LongTimeInCX]

I've read an apostrophe can be useful.

It appears it can delineate between people who know their ****, and those other poor unfortunates who know they're ****.

Now back to thread, the following link is reminiscent of cx when I joined
Women: Know Your Limits! Harry Enfield - BBC comedy - YouTube

I'm not sure with some of the comments on here that we've progressed much!

[Cavallier]

Thanks Silberfuchs, I stand corrected.

The Cav:cool:

[mr Q]

Obviously a little behind the times
The modern wife is Filipina
Otherwise the sentiments remain unchanged

[DexyDogg]

Yup, I'm sure that all women at home with their kids 24/7 are always fantastic mothers by default. And surely all men, when out 'hunting and gathering', have their kid's best interests at heart...

Cue male pilot with chip on his shoulder bitching about female pilots and the decline of the traditional family while getting pissed in Wan Chai...

Give me a freakin' break. :ugh:

[owen meaney]

So riddle me this Batman, why is it not OK for a man to have an opinion that women should be at home looking after the children.
We live in a world where children are not being raised and nurtured correctly because women are abrograting their prime responsibility.

[Cpt. Underpants]

One of the mums at school was shocked and surprised when the only way her brat would respond was when the maid asked him to do it...in Tagalog.

[Juliette Alpha]

I think it all depends on what set up the family has, if the father is a stay at home dad then there should be no problem but if both parents work full time jobs, say one works a 9 to 5 job and the other is a pilot, then I think it is a problem. There are too many kids being raised by helpers in Hong Kong and it doesn't help the parents as they are not as close to their children and it doesn't help the children as they don't see their parents enough. This also applies to dads, although mums do have more of a maternal instinct.

[Fly747]

Yes, Capt Undies, so many stereotypes here. A friend's partner was shocked at school when she was asked to tell her daughter's mother to come in as they had some issue to discuss. She was of course the mother but was assumed to be the helper!

[FR8R H8R]

I'm confused. If the woman is working, who is cleaning the kitchen?

[diablo_caliente]

Oh yes! Playing the equality card.

Until a man can give birth to a child, we ain't equal.

[betpump5]

Yamma, don't mean to offend but - go F yourself :)

[711]

Etopsmonkey, Owen Meany, Yamma

can you offer any hard evidence that children (co-)raised by other family members than the mother,boarding school,helper, tutors, the family dog, are worse off than those brought up by a housewife-mum? Ever spend a thought about other influential factors, e.g. role models, stimulation, higher income equals better schools, international environment, independence, stronger bonds to friends/other family members, more challenging resulting in more resilient character, better network of influential/powerful/interesting friends etc etc etc?

No, I do not want to hear the really really gripping story of the daughter of a neighbours friend, I want to see some scientific EVIDENCE. Social study, by a neutral university/academic institution, NOT that great paper back you found online.

Spend a moment of reflection ( maybe while on a hunting break in your cave): could your one-dimensional, simplified and un-scientific way of looking at things evolve because YOU were brought up lacking any of the stimulating factors mentioned above?

This is the result of a 5 minute online search.

You probably could find material supporting your case ( albeit from far less reputable sources/publishing houses), but the VAST majority of studies does not.

Working Moms: The Kids Are All Right (http://www.socialsciencespace.com/2012/03/working-moms-the-kids-are-all-right/)

Working mothers do no harm to their young children, research finds | Life and style | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/jul/22/working-mothers-no-harm-children)

BBC News - Do working mums make healthy children? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8547984.stm)

The science of being a working mother: The M.D. - Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/13/health/la-he-the-md-working-mom-20120213)

Famous Boarding School Alumni - Boarding School Review (http://www.boardingschoolreview.com/listing-alumni.php)


PS Owen Meany, it is impossible not to note the irony of your chosen alter ego, it's creator ( which by the way you will find in the "famous boarding school alumni list" ), the bio of the novel character and the personal story of John Irving. You gotta be kidding..

[cxorcist]

You left-wing, women's lib, Obama lovers make me laugh...

Of course, the social ills of our society and the breakdown of the nuclear family has nothing to do with working parents, single parents, uninterested parents, etc. Of course, you can be a great career woman and a great mum all at the same time. Never mind the fact that you can't be in two places at once. A stand-in helper is a fine substitute for a parent. How could anyone think otherwise?

Not just mums, but dads too, are increasingly vacant from the home. Pressures from work and finances driven by gluttonous consumerism have eroded the most important facet of rearing children - TIME. Show me where you spend the majority of your time, and I'll show you what is most important in your life. It really is that simple.

None of this requires scientific research. It's called common sense.

[711]

Cxorcist, with all due respect, your reply makes no (common) sense.

A female pilot can indeed spend lots of time with her kid(s), just not in the classical way.

Another very important factor that gets overlooked is what happens if a marriage/partnership ends in a divorce ( as in 30-50 % of all marriages).

If the wife gave up her career, this will in most cases result in significant reduced living standards, and of course this WILL affect the kids,too. If the mother maintained her career this could be avoided, to the BENEFIT of the kids.
Additionally two working parents are an insurance in case the husband gets unemployed or sick, another important aspect imho.

I am European, your comments on your political situation are non-sequitor to me. It is impossible for me to understand the appeal of the Tea-Party, assault rifles under the bed, fighting a monstrous state deficit with lowering taxes for the rich or Mormon multi-millionaire presidential candidates. Good luck!!

[etopsmonkey]

711, I don't expect you to understand. Traditional family values is much stronger in the US, than in liberal/progressive Europe. I guess that's why 1/2 of Europe is on the brink of bankruptcy. While the US has its own financial problems, we are still the number 1 economy in the world, and leader of the free world.



I guess your domestic helpers and private boarding schools didn't teach you European kids about personal responsibilities when you were young. Look at the state of the European economies now. Responsible parents teach the kids about responsibilities and hard work, your domestic helper is just there to help you - not replace you.

[711]

Again, you are missing the irony of your statement:

The more progressive states in Europe, with more working mums and less traditional social values are actually far better off than others. Compare e.g. Sweden, Finland, Holland and Germany vs Italy, Greece or Portugal.

If that is too far fetched check the difference between the States in the bible belt vs the North-East in your country.

Now, it is probably highly debatable how much of an influence a working mum has on accumulated debt levels, but it certainly shows that wherever she lives people are generally BETTER off!

[Oasis]

Whenever I hear the USA being referred to as 'leader of the free world', I throw up a little in my mouth!

[Vermin]

Some real mingers in KA, the chicken sandwich, Heir Das minger who must be obeyed, the managers chubby rambunctious wiffey, n a barrel of local stick insects. What a party we are having over here ;)

[mr Q]

As far as HK is concerned a stay at home mum is no guarantee of quality family time
The helper does the drudge tasks the mother stays by the pool with a few G & Ts

[lj101]

Etopsmonkey

Divorce rates help explain why Americans work more than Europeans | vox (http://www.voxeu.org/article/divorce-rates-help-explain-why-americans-work-more-europeans)

[cxorcist]

711,

You again are cause for a good chuckle.

I never wrote that a female pilot could not spend lots of quality time with her children. In fact, I spend much more time with my kids than most career men working traditional jobs five days a week. However, my wife is there full time in my absence. I was addressing parentless households and the direct correlation to social ills in our society. That does not require scientific research, only a small dose of common sense.

I also never wrote a word about the Tea Party, guns, tax rates, deficits, or Mormons. So your claim of non-sequitur seems dishonest. It appears you know more about US politics than you claim. Even if you did not, understanding that Obama is a left-wing socialist intent on driving the US into European-style government is common knowledge around the globe. Americans reject this folly as you only have to look across the Atlantic to see where it gets you. Good luck to you!

[FreqFlyer001]

Cxorcist,

Do you mean to suggest that we look across the pacific instead? :yuk:

Obama has my vote!

[Armchairflyer]

While the US has its own financial problems, we are still the number 1 economy in the world, and leader of the free world.Pity that only so relatively few of your citizens benefit from this: Richard Wilkinson: How economic inequality harms societies | Video on TED.com (http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html)

[cxorcist]

FreqFlyer,

Since you asked, America ought to be looking at its own history as a guide for the future. Despite the retarded claims to the contrary, America was made great by the history which is unique to the US. Not all of it was pretty, but it certainly turned out a great country that most people around the globe would love to live in today. Obama is trying to make us more like the rest of the Western world, and I want no part of that low growth, high tax and entitlement model which is threatening to break portions of Europe right now. The Ozzies and the Canucks would be no better off were it not for their resource rich economies. Socialism makes the pie smaller and the tide lower. That ought to be obvious by now.

Sorry lady pilots, we digress...

[China Flyer]

leader of the free world

46% of Americans have savings of less than $800, and now there are more than 46 million on food stamps.

You might be "the leader of the free world", but I expect you don't include the USA as part of it, surely? Land of the free and home of the brave? Ask the TSA whether they agree with that particular sentiment.

[FreqFlyer001]

Cxorcist,

Well said. But you forget that Obama has spent most of his term in office advancing the rights of women (not precluding female pilots) and minorities so we actually haven't digressed that much, or have we? Whether you're a male, or female pilot, everyone knows that Europe's woes stem from over-borrowing and not from socialism as you've alluded above. It's common knowledge.

In all fairness though, I understand your frustration about growth and taxes. Trust me, I get it, you’re angry and frustrated because your taxes are going up. Don't worry, you're not alone. Just remember, Obama isn't "raising" your taxes. Rather, it's the Bush Tax Cuts that are expiring. There's a big difference. You don't need to be that smart to see what's going on. But if you're absolutely intent on blaming someone, wouldn't it make a lot more sense to just blame some random female pilot instead?

Sorry ladies, I don't mean to digress here but what's the difference?

Obviously it would be a huge mistake to blame Obama for your "higher" taxes, or to suggest that he wants to take America down the same path as Europe. It would be equally foolish to try and extrapolate or predict America's future based on Europe's present financial woes. In fact, the only way your dreary high-tax, low-growth predictions about America's future hold is when you control for every variable that distinguishes America from Europe.

Without controlling for these variables, your predictions fall apart. In fact, today's unemployment statistics (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm) hint at a much different future. I know you're entitled to your own opinion which is more than most living across the pacific are entitled to but obviously Obama isn't taking the United States down the same path as Europe. Only idiots believe that stupid line. And by the way, the cold war ended. Please tell me you're not still afraid of socialism?

[bogdantheturnipboy]

If you are a father of young kids and don't find it hard being away from your kids, you probably shouldn't have had kids.

Suggestion - get desexed before you have any more

[FlexibleResponse]

I love female pilots. I have flown with quite a few and have found them to be easily the equivalent of male pilots as one should expect any dedicated professional would be.

I am in totally awe of some female aviatrixes, especially the likes of the famous Hanna Reitsch.

If you have difficulty in your understanding of aviation and where the fairer sex fits in, you should study a little history going back to ferry pilots of WWII and earlier pioneers.

Don't embarrass or humiliate yourself with a personal lack of knowledge of those who have gone before and have dedicated themselves to making your flying job safer.