Did any RAF or RN aircrew on exchange with USAF, USN fly over Vietnam?

[phantomstreaker]

Hi All.


Random thought after reading Robert K Wilcox book "Scream of Eagles" regarding the start of TopGun in late 60s early 70s.

Did any RAF or RN crews serve operationally with front line squadrons over Vietnam during the conflict?

[SASless]

No.....as they thought the North Vietnamese were doing quite well without their help!:E

[Pontius Navigator]

SASLess, most of Vietnam lies east of 105 deg East. Under the SEATO the British sphere of influence extended west of 105 deg East and the US east of that meridian.

Obviously were the minor parts of a country crossed that meridian it would be in the sphere of influence of the major part, ie the whole of Vietnam would fall within your sphere.

In late 1962 Indonesia laid claim to parts of Borneo in an attempt to break up the new state of Malaysia. Britain and ANZ forces reinforced Malaysia. In late 1964, when the level of confrontation increased a significant number of additional British and Commonwealth units were deployed there.

In the case of the UK many of these forces were already NATO assigned so there was considerable military stretch and the new Government was intent on reducing our commitments and the concomitant costs.

On 7th December 1964, Patrick Gordon Walker, Foreign Secretary and Dennis Healey the Secretary of State for Defence briefed the US Secretary of State Dean Rusk and Secretary for Defence Robert McNamara on their intention to run down the size of the UK’s armed forces over 10 years as defence spending would be maintained at its present levels. The Secretary of State urged Britain to maintain its position on the world stage as we could do things that the US could not, or did not, want to do.

That we stayed out of the Vietnam war was with the tacit acceptance of your Government as we were already committed to maintain stability in our sphere of influence.

[Chugalug2]

That we stayed out of the Vietnam war was with the tacit acceptance of your Government as we were already committed to maintain stability in our sphere of influence.
Were we not called upon to provide them with a Scottish Piper though?

[tarantonight]

phantomstreaker,

My father was an exchange pilot (RN) on VF121 during the Vietnam War. He did not ever fly over there and told me that UK aircrews were not authorised to do so due to the clear fact it was not 'our' war.

However, there has been at least one post on this forum (maybe more, can't recall), stating that a small number of aircrew did. Not sure myself. I would have thought my father would have told me as years went by. He is no longer with us so can't ask him.

TN.

[Fareastdriver]

Somebody flew the Saigon Air Attache's Devon around.

We had a visit to Labuan by the UK standarisation unit that had an American on secondment. He was worried about flying in a war zone, (something about his life insurance), but he did do a few circuits on the airfield.

We used to have a lot of HF interference, and presumably vice versa, from American radio traffic. During one particularly difficult time an American voice came up with.
"Get off of this frequency. Don't you know there is a war on."

To this our hero replied.
"Yes I do, but we are winning ours."

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I know one who did, briefly, till the MoD found out and ordered him out sharpish. No one did officially.

[NutLoose]

See

Rumour Control (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Vietnam/rum2.html)

They seem to think yes.

Also


1962-64 GSM Clasp SOUTH VIETNAM The various qualifying periods, between 24 December 1962 and 29 May 1964, were
* 30 days' service in ships operating in inland waters or off the Vietnamese coast.
* 1 day in the service of a land unit.
* 1 operational sortie.
* 30 days' service on an official visit.


Currently authorised medals (http://justmedals.com/current.html)

You wouldn't issue a medal clasp if it wasn't issued

[Whopity]

I recall a flight over Southern Vietnam in May 70 and I have Saigon in my logbook in Oct 1974.

[GeeRam]

20 years ago, I worked with an ex-RE officer (who had been med discharged early as a result of a rubgy injury) and his father who was IIRC, a Lt.Col? in the RE at the time, had been a junior officer in the RE in the late 1960's and was on an exchange tour with a Kiwi army engineer unit that was then detached to Vietnam while he was on secondment. He went to Vietnam and did a combat tour with them.

[alfred_the_great]

NutLoose - 60 Clasps were awarded, all to Aus Servicemen.

[Army Mover]

There was a Royal Signals sergeant serving at Gutersloh in the early 80's who had the South Vietnam GSM; he wouldn't talk about it, which was unusual because you couldn't stop him talking about everything else .... :E

[November4]

Not serving on front line Sqn but I was told that the RAF flew into Saigon in Dec 1966 on Op Sentinel Rose - Uplift of US radar system ex-loan to British forces.

[Pontius Navigator]

AM, interesting that there were only 60 GSM awarded and those to the Australians. There was a good film of the Australian SAS in Vietnam and the same indifference from civilians when they got home.

Now your Royal Sigs sergeant might have been involved with the SAS as they used non-badged specialist personnel and a RS man might have been one.

OTOH if it was self-awarded . . .

[hval]

My father was in Vietnam for a brief while in 1967. He was In the Corps of Royal Signals, stationed nominally in Singapore.

[Army Mover]

OTOH if it was self-awarded . . . A walt ??? Mmmm, don't think so, he went on to work for some very strange people and I think the vetting would have caught him out.

[Archimedes]

IIRC from a thread on Arrse, there were 70 SVN clasps produced. 68 of these can be accounted for, but the other two recipients...

I also STR from the same thread that between 10-15% of those who received the SVN clasp were Britons serving with the Aussies.

[ChrisJ800]

My mate's dad, Flt Lt Lance was a former RAF instructor and Lightning jock who was KIA in Vietnam shot down in a RAAF Huwy. See ZWIWOLSREMEMBERED (http://www.lightningpilots.com/ZWIWOLSREMEMBERED.html)

[MG]

PN,
The film you mention is The Odd Angry Shot, made in 1979. It's fairly low-budget but the banter in it is about as close as you can get to being on det.

[Pontius Navigator]

MG, thank you. I particularly liked the can opener on a string, the rubber bands on the zippos, and the omnipresent ice box :)

[dalek]

When on 46 Sqn (Andover), around 1970, a couple of the ex 52? Sqn boys told me they had done strip work in South Vietnam.

[ICM]

I had the good fortune to fly the C-141A on exchange from September 1970 to December 1972, when the war was pretty much at its peak, and when the Wing's main task was support of ops in 'The Combat Zone.' For most of my tour, in accordance with established practice affecting all RAF aircrew in Military Airlift Command, I could not enter the Zone. (As I understood matters, this was because it was not 'our war' as already pointed out - and some years later, I found that the same applied to USAF officers with the RAF as regards trips to Northern Ireland and Belize.)

However, in late 1971, new instructions were issued from London - I have no idea why. These permitted those of us flying the 141 to fly in and back out of the Zone; had I been on a C-130 unit flying in-country missions, that would not have been permitted. The practicalities involved convincing the ACP at Clark AB, the normal gateway to Vietnam and Thailand, that I could now go, after years of RAF aircrew not being allowed. And then discovering that elements of the briefing were classified "NOFORN," and so I couldn't be told about SAM locations and the like. The latter was dealt with pragmatically by crews with whom I was flying - they'd come out and tell me. I was the Nav, after all.

And so I racked up a few missions, earned a proportion of an Air Medal, and it meant I could do one of the weekly global Embassy Missions that went through Tan Son Nhut. Not too many, however, for somebody at MAC HQ then found some small print in the USAF Foreign Clearance Guide that I believe had been there for years, and this meant that all manner of visa restrictions applied to flights outside of the CONUS, US Possessions, and NATO countries. This became a much more severe limitation, at least it did with my Wing; others on the West Coast seemed to get less worked up about it. (I believe that the Australian MOD found it very odd to be suddenly asked by the US Embassy whether a RAF exchange officer could fly into Australia!) However, I was kept busy flying airdrop sorties, and by operating overwater as an Instructor/Examiner, and the problem was minimised.

So, yes, those of us on the 141 both flew over, and into, Vietnam ... eventually.

[SASless]

Must have been very risky flying up there in the mid-20's to lower 30's.:E

[Pontius Navigator]

Cue the hilarious yarn of the 4xF4 in the 30s dropping a mix of ordnance just as soon as they could with the assistance of a FAC where they were keener to keep their little pink backsides intact and out of enemy hands.

Must have been on pprune about 4-5 years ago.

[Brian 48nav]

I was on 48 Hercs at Changi 67-9 and squadron aircraft went to Tan Son Nhut 2 or 3 times a week with Red Cross supplies,beer for the embassy etc. I do recall knowing that on at least one occasion an Andover of 52 had done strip landings 'up-country'.
We had a young captain on 48 (now ACM Sir JC retired) who told me he had put 'exchange tour with the USAF on operational duties in SE Asia' as his first choice in the posting column on his 1369.It was common knowledge that at that time RAF transport aircrew on exchange with MAC were not permitted into South Vietnam.
I recall meeting the pilot of the Air Attache's Devon ( Sqn Ldr Hampson or something similar) and his Dutch (IIRC) wife, when they came out to meet our aircraft.

[Low Flier]

A rather rare photo of an operational RAF aircraft and pilot in Vietnam during The American War:
http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/devons/mswineyVP978.jpg
Tan Son Nhut 1970

and another photo of another one at Hue the same year:
http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/devons/VP962_Hue_010770.jpg

Both photos taken from the RAFinfo website (http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/devons/VP962ms.htm).

[Wander00]

I recall JC as my first SUO at Cranwell on A Sqn. I also seem to recall that his Dad was one of the AFB whose names and post-nominals we had to learn - Air Marshal Sir Walter G C............. cannot remember the decorations though.....now what did I have for breakfast?

[Union Jack]

Something for you to chew on, Wander00:

W G Cheshire_P (http://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Cheshire_W.htm)

In order to avoid accusations of thread-drift, if the title of the thread had included the USMC, at least one RN pilot comes to mind. ISTR that the first MOD(N) new about was when some interesting medals arrived in the post with a request that they be forwarded. The were, plus denial of permission to wear .....:sad:

Jack

[NutLoose]

Plt Off (P): 28 Jul 1926, Plt Off: 28 Jul 1927, Fg Off: 28 Jan 1928, Flt Lt: 9 Sep 1931, Sqn Ldr: 1 Apr 1937, (T) Wg Cdr: 1 Mar 1940, (T) Gp Capt: 1 Jun 1942, Wg Cdr: 20 Nov 1942 [1 Jul 1942], Act A/Cdre: 20 Jul 1944, Gp Capt (WS): 20 Jan 1945, Gp Capt: 1 Jul 1947 [1 Oct 1946], A/Cdre: 1 Jul 1950, Act A 23 Apr 1953, AVM: 1 Jan 1954, AM: 1 Jul 1959, ACM: 19 Nov 1962.




Fascinating rank progress during the war...

Wing Co to Group Capt to Wing Co to Act A/Cdr to Group Capt...

[November4]

The Odd Angry Shot..great film wit Bryan Brown

"One fully operational w....ing device, padre for the use of"

[bricklane]

An RN pilot serving as an instructor with VF-121 flew an F-4 to Da Nang on a delivery flight, then, I'm told, unfurled a Union flag as he taxied to the pan. And an RAF helicopter pilot sent to Da Nang from Hong Kong as an observer flew a combat sortie or two with a US Army Huey squadron. I'm sure there's more of this sort of thing. But it's bits and pieces. Nothing of the sort of significance people are hoping to discover ...

[SASless]

Tan Son Nhut....The USAF Air base in Saigon that forbid the wearing/carrying of weapons....and had an air conditioned Pizza Parlor and bowling alley? I remember it well....and the problems with the Air Police when we showed up complete with guns. It is now the Ho Chi Mind City International Airport.

[GreenKnight121]

Fascinating rank progress during the war...

Wing Co to Group Capt to Wing Co to Act A/Cdr to Group Capt...

Actually, "(T) Wing Cdr to (T) Group Capt to Wing Cdr to Act A/Cdr to Group Capt (WS) to Group Capt to A/Cdr".

So the first two are temporary ranks* (likely due to the lack of a permanent person filling the position during the rapid expansion of the RAF in 1940-42), and then he gets a perm posting matching his earlier temp posting.

This is followed by another temp (acting) position, then a "WS" (whatever that is), then two more perm-posts... both of which he has had before in temp/acting status.



* Or does the "T" stand for "training"... as in being trained for the position?
Or perhaps he commanded a training wing & group, not an operational one?

[Archimedes]

T = Temporary. WS = Wartime Substantive

As you suspect, he holds the rank for the post that he's in at a particular time; chances are, though, that he'll not have reverted to lower rank at any point and to outsiders will appear to have been promoted steadily from Sqn Ldr at the start of hostilites to Air Cdre by 1944.

He's a substantive Sqn Ldr in 1942. He's then promoted to Temporary Wg Cdr (presumably to fill an SO1's slot in Bomber Command HQ). He continues to be paid as a Sqn Ldr.

Then, presumably on appointment as the Air Attache in Moscow, he becomes a Grp Capt (the usual rank of the Air Attache) - but continues to 'enjoy' the pay and allowances of a Sqn Ldr (his actual substantive rank). This is partly rectified with a back-dated promotion to substabtive Wg Cdr in November 1942 (note not back-dated to his appointment as Air Attache, but at a guess to the date he arrived in Moscow to assume his new post).

Then, on 20 Jul 44, he becomes Chief of A2 at SEAC. This is a 1* post, so he becomes a temporary Air Cdre - but in receipt of a Wg Cdr's pay and allowances.

Finally, in Jan 45, he's given promotion to the substantive rank of Grp Capt and receives the pay and allowances associated with that rank - but as this is a wartime substantive rank, once the war is at an end (remember that bureaucracy will have not felt any need to take into account the surrenders of Germany and Japan when determining when wartime ends...), he reverts to being a substantive Wing Commander and his pay goes down again.

I'm guessing that there was a point in 1945/46 when he was doing a 1* job and getting a Wg Cdr's pay.

Somewhere in the Treasury, a beancounter chances upon this thread and has a bright idea...

[chippymick]

For the reasons Pontius Navigator pointed out in post Number 3 there was no RAF involvement in Vietnam combat after 1964. There was however RAF involvement prior to December 1964.

The existence of the South Vietnam clasp to the 1962 GSM is also a bright red and very whiffy herring.

Archimedes is correct in post 17 when he points out that all the clasps were awarded to early members (or defacto members) of the Australian Army Training Team Vietnam. Some of whom originated from the UK and some of whom had previous service with British Armed Forces.

From an aviation perspective a few of the SVN Clap recipientsare significant in a couple of pioneering respects with regard to helicopter operations. Captain Noel Delahunty was awarded the Military Cross for conducting the first 'Commonwealth' hot extraction Warrant Officer George Chinn was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal in the same year for taking charge of the first hot insertion.

As Archimedes has previously pointed out some of the 'Australians' were British. Warrant Officer Brian Quee born in London in 1930 after serving a tour as an instructor with AATTV from 1962 to 1963 he returned on his second tour as Squadron Sergeant Major of 161 Reece Flight (http://www.161recceflt.org.au). 161 Recce Flight operated Cessna 180's and Sioux Helicopters in support of the 1st Australian Task Force at Nui Dat from 1967 to 1968.

All the 68 awardees of the SVN clasp are known and documented. (http://www.aattv.iinet.net.au/gsm.htm) The number of awards is sometimes misrepresented as 60 or sometimes 70 (as has already occurred on this thread) This is more readily attributed to a rounding error rather than any 'secret' RAF service in Vietnam.

There are some sound reasons why some RAF , RN and Army working in the embassy in the period 1965 to 1966 may have erroneously believed that they had been awarded the SVN clasp.

To answer the question proposed by the OP - Yes. Prior to 1964 at least one RAF helicopter was killed (and still missing in action) while seconded to the DARPA helicopter gunship trials.



Regards

Mick

[chippymick]

From a journal article authored by myself and Mario Mariachi posted at the BMF Forum:



There was at least one other British Serviceman who qualified for the Campaign Medal under the terms set out by the Royal Warrant. That is, his service in Vietnam occurred “between the 24th December 1962 and the 28th May 1964” and that he made at least “one operational sortie.” “The usual concession is made regarding termination of service from death wounds or an award of a gallantry decoration” In this case, his service was terminated, when he was tragically killed.

In an intriguing footnote in 'Street without Joy’ the usually reliable Bernard Fall states that: ‘There also existed in Viet-Nam since 1962 a British Military Advisory Mission under T. K. G. Thompson, particularly concerned with the Strategic Hamlets. A British colonel was killed flying in a U.S. helicopter in 1964.” (90) No members of BRIAM or Noone’s British Training Team are known to be casualties. Fall’s ‘British Colonel’ was most likely to have been Royal Air force Wing Commander Alan Lee MVO.

In the 1949 New Years honours Alan Lee was appointed to the Royal Victorian Order in the fifth Division.(91) This possibly indicates that he may have been working in some capacity in the Royal household. An appointment as a MVO was usual on completion of this task.

In May 1950 Lee was promoted to Flying Officer and trained as one of the RAF’s first helicopter pilots. He was posted to Far East Force Casualty Evacuation flight in Malaya flying Westland ‘Dragonfly’ Helicopters in May 1950.(92) Lee’s pioneering work with primitive helicopters on operational service in the ‘Emergency’ did not go unnoticed. He was Mentioned in Despatches in recognition of his distinguished service in Malaya in August 1952. Promoted to Squadron Leader in July 1956, Lee was by this time one of the UK’s most experienced and able helicopter pilots.(93)

The original, under powered and unreliable machines that Lee had first used in Malaya were giving way to better, more useful aircraft and the helicopter would soon start to deliver on its enormous potential. The problem of underpowered machines looked to be solved with the advent of new lighter, vastly more powerful gas turbine engines. The machine showing the most promise for future development in the early 1960’s was the Bell UH-1 Iroquois or ‘Huey’.(94)

The responsibility for weapons trials was the responsibility of the US Advanced Research Projects Agency(ARPA). The Huey gunship weapons trials project was being run on behalf of ARPA by the RAND Corporation. The RAND Corporation had been split from the Douglas Aircraft Company shortly after WW2. Most of their investigative and consultancy work was done on behalf of the USAF.(95) The British defence establishment had a natural interest in cooperating with their NATO ally in technological developments. In January 1964 Wing Commander Allen Lee was working with RAND on the XH-1A Huey Gunship program. The XH-1A was used for grenade launcher, rocket and machine gun tests, in combat field trials and based on the UH-1B airframe. In the early 1960’s ARPA were working on several research projects and trialling them under combat conditions in South Vietnam. One of these projects resulted in the M-16 Rifle and another eventually resulted in the Huey Gunship. Wing Commander Allen Lee was part of the ARPA team that developed the Huey into a ‘weapon’. While Lee was learning all he could about gunship operations, the British were also attempting to stimulate ARPA’s interest in the hovercraft that British firm, Saunders Roe, were developing for military use.(96)

Lee’s Huey UH-1B tail number 62-01880 suffered a tail rotor failure after a strafing run on Viet Cong positions on the South China Sea coastline in Kien Hoa Province. It is not known whether the cause of the tail rotor failure was due to enemy ground fire in reply, or merely a mechanical mishap. In any event, 62-01880 crashed into the South China Sea

Although three of the crew were rescued, conditions were extremely difficult. Wing Commander Allen Lee, the US pilot Bryford Metoyer and the Crew Chief PFC John L. Straley perished. An attempt to rescue the trio in the water was made but Metoyer disappeared and Lee slipped from the grasp of the rescue helicopter crew and, he too disappeared. It is assumed that they were taken by sharks.(97)


We argue that, under the terms of the Royal Warrant establishing the award of the 1962 General Service Medal with South Vietnam Clasp, that Wing Commander Lee undoubtedly qualified for it."


If any of the resident experts here can correct or add anything to this account Mario and I would be very pleased to hear from you.

Best regards


Mick.

[Wiley]

‘The Odd Angry Shot’ starred (comedian) Grahame Kennedy, not Brian Brown, and, although not a bad film, was pretty unrepresentative of the way the Oz SAS did their business in SVN. (The ‘required’ big battle towards the end, with lots of unit casualties for a bit of pathos, wasn’t what the SAS did. In all their years in country, where they did so many really, really amazing things, they suffered only on KIA, the unfortunate Gunner Fisher, who, wounded, fell from the rope during a helicopter extraction. His body was located only a few years ago.)

If anyone is interested in reading a far more accurate recounting of the Oz SASR in SE Asia, try ‘Sleeping with Your Ears Open: On Patrol with the Australian SAS’, by Gary Mackay – a very good read, mostly first hand, first person accounts. In North Borneo during Confrontation, the SASR suffered one dead on ops who was gored to death by a rogue elephant.


--------
Re ChrisJ800’s post # 18: Lofty Lance was indeed killed while serving with the RAAF’s 9 Sqn in SVN. Lofty was one of the ex-RAF pilots who were taken on by the RAAF in the mid to late 60s to put a few experienced heads among the boggies on squadrons with the major expansion required by the Vietnam commitment. Some had been long out of the RAF and were already living in Australia, having emigrated there.


Re the original question: did anyone from the RAF serve in Vietnam? (Remember, this is a RUMOUR network, and this next bit as about as much a 'way out there' rumour as rumours get.) In the late sixties, as the Brits began to withdraw everything that was East of Suez to West of Suez (and therefore, quite a few people saw the [what was] very good life they’d enjoyed for a very long time coming to an end), bar talk at Tengah had it that ‘someone’ was looking for experienced fast jet drivers to fly high performance, delta winged aircraft in Asia for 5,000 USD a month.

Now $5,000 a month was very big money back then, and (other than the USAF – who definitely weren’t paying foreigners $5000 a month to fly any of their aeroplanes), there was only one outfit flying ‘high performance, delta wing aircraft’ in Asia at the time.

That same bar talk said that a small number of RAF fast jet types had taken up the offer and made a lot of money flying those high performance, delta wing jets – but of course, it was bar talk, and no one could ever name a name. So, in answer to the original question, maybe so, (if unlikely), but not in quite the way the questioner might have imagined.

[Three Wire]

In the late sixties, as the Brits began to withdraw everything that was East of Suez to West of Suez (and therefore, quite a few people saw the [what was] very good life they’d enjoyed for a very long time coming to an end), bar talk at Tengah had it that ‘someone’ was looking for experienced fast jet drivers to fly high performance, delta winged aircraft in Asia for 5,000 USD a month.

AFAIK, the RAN was looking for some experienced fast jet pilots to assist in manning the new delta wing A4 Skyhawks. They in fact managed to recruit five or six RNers who became RAN A4 pilots in relatively senior positions. IIRC there were at least two Senior Pilots and a CO, and AWI training gained from this move.

As far as the money, I don't think so, but the RAN pay for the time, was far better than the RN.

3W

[500N]

"‘The Odd Angry Shot’ starred (comedian) Grahame Kennedy, not Brian Brown, and, although not a bad film, was pretty unrepresentative of the way the Oz SAS did their business in SVN. (The ‘required’ big battle towards the end, with lots of unit casualties for a bit of pathos, wasn’t what the SAS did. In all their years in country, where they did so many really, really amazing things, they suffered only on KIA, the unfortunate Gunner Fisher, who, wounded, fell from the rope during a helicopter extraction. His body was located only a few years ago.)

And the lessons learn't from his falling off the rope were still being taught in the 80's and are probably still today when any roping or rappelling is done, especially with Helicopters.

A message was picked up at one point on the VC net to saty away from a certain area. That area was where the SAS operated as they were extremely good as would be expected.


Another book worth reading is Behind Enemy Lines by Terry O'Farrell
who did two tours and went from Private to Major including RSM and Acting CO of the Regiment at one stage.
.

[bosnich71]

If you were a British immigrant to Australia at the time of the Vietnam War you were liable for National Service even if you were not an Australian citizen.If your name was drawn you could well find yourself in Vietnam even if it were not"our war".
A look at the official casualty lists for those K.I.A. in Vietnam reveals quite a few young British lads who gave their lives.

[chopper2004]

In his book, ACM Sir Peter, went for a visit to 'Nam when he was in FEAF (in 69/70?) Going in country, he flew in a Huey gunship as he described the crew chief gunners behaving as 'Chicago gangsters hanging on a trapeze wire' when going on range. He also described the frustration of the USAF crews whose hands were tied as all targeting was decided and done from Hawaii and D.C. He said that the winning hearts and minds program in Vietnam worked out fine for a while until the the troops left the villagers and the VC moved in to kill the village elders and then all the good work done earlier went to pot unlike our guys in Malaya.

Looking halfway down this page

Rumour Control (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Vietnam/rum2.html)

reference to exchange pilot to a unit based at Ellington field who flew the F-4 who did not get left out of the deployment?

[SASless]

I had a friend who was Irish....who flew in the same Battalion....which branch of the Irish I do not recall. My unit supported the Australians down at Nui Dat, and I am aware of Australians being other places as well including the 135th ENU's which was a joint Australian Navy and US Army Assault Helicopter unit flying Huey's.

I have never heard of any British Soldier or Airman being assigned to, attached, to, visiting any combat unit I am aware of.....which does not mean there weren't any....but in all the time that has lapsed....it would seem most likely it would have become known.

I have no doubt there may have been some SAS folks amongst the SpecOps guys but nothing has cropped up in any of the books written about those years by some of the participants that I am aware of.

The Aussies were great to work with.....entirely too organized compared to the American Army when it came ot using Chinooks. Superb Soldiers in my view!

[tangoe]

operating out of Laos during the time that the great John Cross was the DA. Great book of his 'first in, last out', please read.

CIA, Air America, its not all fiction. Theres a retired RCT Lt. Col who can tell you a thing or 2 and I wish he would write it all down because hes one of the few left that knows, well some of it.

I have sometimes tried to work out if he posts on here and the earlier post of a Saigon landing in '70 intrigued me, but I dont think so. If he does post on here maybe we can eek it out of him, because Im not going to betray his confidence, again.

// T

[Archimedes]

Mildly OT

‘The Odd Angry Shot’ starred (comedian) Grahame Kennedy, not Brian Brown,

Just in case anyone's questioning their grey cells, Bryan Brown was in the film, but not at the top of the bill. I'd guess that as he's almost certainly the most famous cast member for most British & American viewers of The Odd Angry Shot, this is why he's often assumed to be the star. Kennedy's reputation in Australia is totally lost on any Briton who's not googled him after watching the film.

[Pontius Navigator]

Archimedes, spot on Bryan Brown is the actor I always think of in the film. Of Grahame Kennedy I have no recollection at all.

[Andu]

For those non Ozmates not familiar with Graham Kennedy, perhaps someone could find the (IMT?) clip of Rover the Labrador peeing on camera - the longest canine urination on camera ever recorded. Very, very funny, if not (according to Wikipedia) quite as unscripted as it seemed at the time.

(According to Wikipedia, they gave Rover much, much water to drink before he came on camera.) There's another, (also a set up, where they overfed the dog before the show), where Rover wouldn't eat the sponsor's pet food on camera - so Kennedy (or so it seemed) ate the dog food straight from the can.

Kennedy's role in 'The Odd Angry Shot' was out of character - a serious role, which, as far as I know, was a first for Kennedy, and to many pundits' surprise, which he actually handled quite well. The movie wasn't half bad, but I agree with earlier comments that it wasn't indicative of the SAS mode of operation in Vietnam.

Re the thread title asking if any Brits served in SVN, I could be wrong, (I'm finding that memories tend to be unreliable after so many years have passed), but I thought it was pretty much a given that a small number of Brits transferred to the Australian Army (with more of less 'semi-official' approval/sanction from the Brit end) , in particular, the SAS, to allow them to serve in SVN. As I said, I could be wrong.

[Shackman]

205 Sqn Shackletons had at least a couple of visits to Vietnam in 70/71. One after an engine failure off the coast whilst in transit between HK and Changi and diversion to Phan Rang, where the crew were 'looked after' by 2 Sqn RAAF then flying Canberrras, and did a number of 'interesting' things whilst waiting for a new engine. Another went into Saigon - Tan Son Nhut - for much the same problem IIRC - but the crew were strictly monitored. However, we didn't 'serve' there.

[And Then]

In the late sixties, as the Brits began to withdraw everything that was East of Suez to West of Suez (and therefore, quite a few people saw the [what was] very good life they’d enjoyed for a very long time coming to an end), bar talk at Tengah had it that ‘someone’ was looking for experienced fast jet drivers to fly high performance, delta winged aircraft in Asia for 5,000 USD a month.

So British mercenaries flew the MIG 21 for the Vietnamese? :8

[chopper2004]

Hmm ' Candy Machine' F-102 deployments from Clark? :) :)

So we're talking about 6-7 years of becoming a US citizen to be cleared and vetted to be done in 6-7 weeks followed by conversion course of 6-7 months?

Sweet

[judge.oversteer]

"Odd Angry Shot" ?
Grey, Green, Brown and Oakover were the characters involved including both BB and GK.

Jo.

[Al R]

Odd Angry Shot.. great film. But I also thought The Wild Geese was a great film.. until I watched it again the other day. :(

The RAF Regt had a Flt Lt who served in Vietnam with the Aussies - he was stn Rock at Waddo in the 90s (I think) and published an autobiography at about the same time. As Senior Ground Defence Staff Officer, HQ Far East Air Force, Air Vice Marshal D A Pocock RAF Regt (deceased) also worked with the USAF to improve its ground defence 'proposition' (it has finally happened, I have forgotten the equivalent military word) out there.

[MG]

The Wild Geese is a great Bad film, just like Who Dares Wins!

In The Odd Angry Shot, there's a very distinctive Yorkshire accent in the SQMS.

[Alan Mills]

On two separate occasions during 69 and 70 a Shackleton from 205 Sqn Changi diverted into Vietnam with engine trouble. One was fixed after an overnight stay, but I think the other remained for an engine change (prob 2-4 days). Both aircraft were returning from Hong Kong. Same captain (Howard?)

[hval]

I do hope this works. Some of my fathers photographs from 1967. My apologies for the poor quality. The images were taken from an 8mm film.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8459/8048328423_855ac6ff53_o.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8182/8048335152_5a72a4894e_o.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8034/8048335446_1752529225_o.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8452/8048329429_62686f899b_o.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8312/8048329819_d504944a9f_o.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8312/8048330217_c6de15d9fa_o.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8452/8048330509_2d4e850242_o.jpg

[India Four Two]

I watched "The Odd Angry Shot" the other day, based on the recommendations here. An interesting film, but as others have pointed out, nothing like SAS operations in South Vietnam.

I can also recommend "Sleeping With Your Ears Open". Based on the descriptions of patrols in the book, a realistic SAS film would be rather boring and devoid of dialog - at least in the jungle. Back at base might be a different matter.

Several days of patrolling completely silently with using only hand signals and little or no contact with the VC or NVA, other than observation, makes for great reading but a poor film.

[500N]

India Four Two

I reckon a film of the antics on "The Hill" would make interesting viewing !

The SAS got into enough fights that a shortish film could be made,
a few fights, a few hot extractions (including the loss of the soldier)
plus the usual leave periods to pad it put !!! :O

Must read the Sleeping With Your Ears Open and Behind Enemy Lines.
.

[RHKAAF]

Did many flights through Saigon with 52 SQN during 1969 and 1970 on the way to HongKong. In 1971 did a tour around the US bases in a Mk 2 Andover with the VIP Flt out of Changi. Then in the 90's did a couple of trips to Hanoi from HongKong for the UNHCR negotiators. Finally, staged through the old Tan San Nhut field in the late 90's--- it was unchanged since the 70's. Good memories!

[BBadanov]

I flew in a USAF TFW over 1969-70 in SVN, but that was before I joined the RAF, so I don't qualify for the thread title.

But I did a weekend visit in 1970 down to stay with FACs in Ca Mao, in the southern delta (then IV Corps in SVN). While I was having a beer with the FACs, this Brit came over for a beer (or two). He had been ex-Brit Army, or perhaps RM, and was serving in a mercenary role leading out small long-range patrols on search and destroy. Perhaps I should say he wasn't "leading" - he would bring up the tail as he didn't want to be shot in the back.

He had previously served in this role in Africa, Congo I think. He had several chain type scars across his face, so had been in the wars. We drank for the afternoon, then we piled into his jeep and went off-base to a civvie-type house. This was the local Ca Mau CIA chief's house. We had a very pleasant BBQ, sitting around a large table with all the CIA chaps - and their wives!! And me, still in my sweaty flying suit. Eventually my new-found Brit mate and I stumbled off and back to base in his jeep. Ahhhh, happy days.

[bpilot52]

Yes. On 52 Sqn we used Saigon to refuel when returning to Seletar/Changi from Hong Kong and some crews stopped the night. It was uncomfortable there, knowing the VC probably had tunnels under where you were standing. Also I flew past Saigon during a 'busy' period (A quiet period was just manic) on the way to Phnom Pehn. Crew listened in to the tower controller. One thud was baulked on approach, requested a quickie radar and was told to eject!

[exblanketstacker]

The RAF Regt chap was called Guy Bransby and his book is called her Majesty's Vietnam Soldier. He is quite a character and a proper gentleman. Also served in the Falklands and has written about that too. He also liberated a nice little statue from the Governor's residence which I remember being in the Mess at Catterick.

[jsbmail2650]

This is for anyone who would have an inerest in my following statement:

On January 18, 1964 I was assigned as the door gunner on an armed Huey gunship (UH-1B 62-01880) (escorting numerous "slick" aircraft in an operation south of Saigon near the mouth of the Mekong River. We had a crew of the Pilot, Co Pilot, Crew Chief, and Door gunner. We also had on board an ARVN (Vietnamese Army) observer and BRITISH WING COMMANDER ALLAN H. LEE. He had never flown with us before and I had never observed military personnel from other countries with us on operations before. To my knowledge he was an observer who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The ground fire was intense and our tail rotor was definitely damaged by the enemy fire and we lost it. We crashed into the South China Sea. The Co Pilot and I were rescued. Commander Lee washed onto the shore a while later and was recovered. The pilot, crew chief and the Vietnamese observer were never recovered. Years later a US remains recovery team went to the area and villagers who lived in a village near there said the remains of an American had washed onto the shore and they had in their possession the crew chief's Army ID card. Johnnie L. Sullivan, Ennis, TX

[Lonewolf_50]

js, thanks for your recollection. It's truly a strange world we live in.

hval:
That bottom photo looks like a T-28, and I am guessing it is a T-28D Trojan of USAF vintage. My uncle flew in those in Southeast Asia, IIRC from a base in Thailand.

[ICM]

jsbmail2650: If you check back, post #36 appears to explain what Wg Cdr Lee was doing with you that day.

[Knucklehead]

I cannot confirm this first account but I can the second. In Singapore while on loan service an RAF Wg Cdr told me the tale of a an RAF pilot on loan to the USAF MATS Starlifter force. He was asked to take cargo into Saigon and said that he was not allowed to fly over, let alone land in Vietnam. His boss told him that they were short of crews and assured him that he would land, turn round and leave immediately. After landing at Saigon all hell broke loose. His cargo was unloaded, replaced with a new load and he was told to head for Da Nang as the Tet offensive was causing severe problems. His protests fell on deaf ears so away he went. He flew quite a few transport support sorties before returning safely to the States. He did not talk about his experiences. Some time later the British Embassy in Washington sent him a polite letter asking him to explain the US campaign ribbons including an Air Medal which they had received on his behalf. Evidently he was allowed to keep but not wear them. Can't write a new paragraph but here is the second account. In the ANZUK mess at Changi in 1973, I met two British army officers from I believe the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Both were wearing Vietnam campaign ribbons awarded to Australian forces. They had been asked to resign from the British army and get experience by joining the Australian army with the assurance that there commissions and posts in the regiment. were secure.

[Davef68]

Knucklehead - see post 22 for more along the C141 line.

[zetec2]

Mid 70's on the Gurkha BritDet we used to overfly Vietnam on our way Hong Kong (Kai Tak) to Bangkok (then Calcutta - Kathmandu) and return, seem to remember transit across started over Da Nang often being picked up by US fighters who came up for a look see.

[Nugget90]

In the mid/late 60s two RAF pilots and an RAF navigator who were serving on an exchange tour with an RAAF transport squadron were asked, after they had completed their first 6 months flying within Australia and could now be cleared to operate beyond its shores, if they wished to take part in the schedules that supported the RAR detachments in South Vietnam - as were their Australian colleagues. Of course the answer was 'Yes'.

All sorties leaving their Australian Base had to be authorised, but the RAF aircrew's names were entered in pencil* and they were accompanied by a lesser qualified Australian pilot/navigator who was the 'official' crew member. Initially, the aircraft routed to/from Butterworth via Pearce and the Cocos Islands (due to Confrontation with Indonesia) and later via Darwin and Singapore.

Sorties were flown from Butterworth principally to and between Vung Tau and the Saigon airfields in '66 and '67, bringing in personnel and stores (especially fresh Australian milk), and collecting those who were going home. The aircraft didn't remain in Vietnam overnight but flew up to Ubon as this was a safe haven.

Of course, the RAF Support Unit at Edinburgh had to be informed that these sorties were being flown, and they in time reported this back to the UK. This resulted in the RAF aircrew being told not to continue to join their RAAF colleagues in supporting the nation's participation in the ANZUS expedition. This was followed by Canberra demanding an early end to the RAF exchange with this squadron.

However, ties forged with the Aussies 50 years ago were strong enough to endure, and I know of one who will be marching in Sydney this year on ANZAC Day, proud to be amongst his former colleagues once again.

* 'In pencil' so that if the worst happened the squadron could erase the entry and deny that participation had been authorised!! However, as one RAAF pilot put it, "If do we have to force land in South Vietnam, the first thing we do is shoot the Poms!"

[ancientaviator62]

When I was stationed at RAF Changi we had a regular schedule into Saigon taking in Embassy supplies and sometimes a passenger or two. Always very busy there and the radios were awash with calls. Pic taken from our Hercules following the 'follow me' which is following a USAF Hercules. Without a 'follow me' we would be lost !
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/TANSONNUT1_zps25e72261.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/TANSONNUT1_zps25e72261.jpg.html)

[BBadanov]

...and you think on the ground was busy?


The circuits in these places - Bien Hoa and Tan Son Nhut - were really crazy if you ever had to go in there.
I heard once: "10th aircraft downwind, say callsign!".

[ancientaviator62]

BBadanov,
yes I do recall that the circuits were very busy. Always a problem for us Brits to copy the the clearances passed in less than familiar accents at Gatling gun speeds.

[Dan Winterland]

An ex colleague of mine recalls, while flying the Andover, to break off the approach at Than Son Nhat so that an airstrike could be carried out at about ten miles finals. The Andover not being very fast, he got a grandstand view.

Cathay Pacific had a daily HKG-SGN-HKG schedule right up to the day before the fall of Saigon.

[chopper2004]

Happy Easter all,

We're the Andovers in the then RAF camouflage of green and brown as they wre doe orated in FEAF or VIP colors ?

Has Anyone got photos of Andovers at Than Son Nhut or other places in country ?

isnt there a photo of 203 Shackleton on the ramp at Cam Rahn Bay kicking around here?

Laughingly the only RAF Andover I have ever seen and spoke to the crew was from RAFG - form Gatow . They flew into RAF Churc Fenton 24 years ago to this day when I was on CCF camp working at the Met Office on work experience. True gents, think one of them was a Squadron Leader and his co-pilot was a Flt Lt. The older one had a pipe with him,

Cheers

[Onceacaptain]

The last RAF exchange crew of that era finished with the RAAF in 1968. This exchange had been operating since the end of WW11. The RAF crews were operating with 36Sqn, RAAF flying the C 130As and while they were probably not tasked directly into Vietnam some may have "passed by" after completing a mission from Butterworth to Ubon and returning to Butterworth via Vung Tau where the RAAF Caribous were based. Ubon in those days was part of the SEATO arrangement.

I was in the last exchange group of 2 pilots and 1 navigator serving with 267 Sqn flying the Argosy. We returned to Australia in July 1968. While there may have been restrictions on where RAF crews could fly with the RAAF there were also restrictions on where we could fly with the RAF.

The RAAF transport exchange after this period was with the USAF until both the RAF and the RAAF acquired the C 130J.

Many ex RAF pilots flew with the RAAF during the Vietnam conflict on both the Caribou and the Canberra

[Onceacaptain]

Further to my previous, I recall Argosy aircraft from 215Sqn operating though Tan Son Nhut during my period in Vietnam 1964/65

[BBadanov]

Many ex RAF pilots flew with the RAAF during the Vietnam conflict on both the Caribou and the Canberra


OAC,
2 SQN Canberras - no ex RAF pilots or navs. There was one ex RAF Regt chap as OiC airfield defence guards.
Of interest, one CO 2 SQN had served an exchange with the RAF on 74 and 92 SQNS (Hunters, I guess).


35 SQN Caribou - unsure, possible but none spring to mind.


9 SQN Iroquois - yes, "Lofty" Lance (#18, #37) was killed in action; there may have been other ex-RAF pilots on choppers.

[Onceacaptain]

35 Sqn - Jock Cassels to name but one for the moment

[John Eacott]

During Eagle's last commission (the Grey Funnel Line Far East tour de force) a compassionate flight in an 899NAS Sea Vixen departed somewhere between HK and Singers late in 1971. I can only recall hazy details but I do recall a slight delay to arrange diplomatic clearance for the flight to pass through South Vietnamese airspace.

No doubt there would be an aluminium death tube driver out there who would have more accurate details?

[BBadanov]

Ok thanks OAC.

Now for some slight thread drift.

The CO 2 SQN in Vietnam (1968-69) I quoted had done an RAF fighter exchange.
The CO after him (1969-70) did an RAF QFI exchange at CFS.
And the CO (1967-68), who later became CAS, had done a transport secondment with the RAF on Dakotas as part of the RAAF contingent during the Berlin Airlift.

When CAS, in 1980 he flew RAAF Dakota A65-69 into Berlin. This Dak was based at Butterworth, Malaysia, and during June 1980 was ferried to Europe to be gifted to the Berlin Airlift Museum at Gatow. Appropriate to have a Berlin Airlift veteran flying it!
As only Brit, US or French aircraft were allowed safe passage through the Berlin air corridors (up to 1989), A65-69 was re-serialled as RAF ZD215 for the corridor ferry. Currently on display at Gatow.

[Old-Duffer]

Throughout the Vietnam war, the Brits frequently staged through Saigon TSN. The Argosy did not really have the legs to fly Changi-Kai Tak non stop with sufficient to make the diversion to Manila, if the need arose.

When posted to HK from Borneo in Mar 67, I first went to Changi and thence by Argosy to HK via Saigon.

In a very childish gesture (it now seems) I sent picture postcards to a couple of girlfriends in UK to say I was in Vietnam!!!

O-D

[wessex19]

This was posted on a Vietnam wall of remembrance site;
On 18 January 1964, a UH-1B helicopter with call sign Dragon Three Three departed An Hiep airfield on an escort mission for troop deployment onto LZ Aloha near the southernmost tip of Thanh Phu Island, approximately 65 miles southwest of Saigon. At the controls was a Creole from Oakdale, Louisiana, 1LT Bryford Glenn Metoyer, a pilot with the UTT Helo Co, 145th AVN Bn, US ARMY Spt Grp, MACV. The 26 year-old Metoyer had become a father for the second time, a little girl named Elisha. He longed to see the newborn, hold his wife, Evelyn, and play with his son, Bryford, Jr. Metoyer’s motto was, "Nothing is impossible." He managed to fly back from Vietnam and hitchhiked home to see his family. He and his older brother, Major Herbert R. Metoyer, were among the first U.S Army helicopter pilots. Three weeks earlier, they had crossed paths in an international airport as Bryford returned to Vietnam and Herbert completed his tour, missing each other by only a few hours. After 300 missions, Metoyer was no stranger to danger. He made a strafing run into Viet Cong positions when suddenly his chopper experienced tail rotor failure, hit the water on the left side, rolled over, and crashed into the South China Sea. Within minutes two nearby rescue helicopters hovered over the crash site. The crews dropped several life vests into the rough water and pulled WO Patrick E. Gray and PFC Johnnie L. Sullivan to safety, but too weak to hold onto a vest, Metoyer was observed to go under three or four times before disappearing completely beneath the three foot waves. Searchers subsequently recovered the body of Wing Commander Allan H. Lee, a British Royal Air Force passenger on board the aircraft, but Metoyer and the crew chief, PFC John L. Straley, were still missing. Straley could not swim and strapped in his seat, he had made no attempt to release his seat belt before the crash. On January 23rd the North Vietnamese newspaper, "People’s Army," published a page one feature on the Battle for Tranh Phu. The article stated the U.S. had deployed a large force to begin the "Phoenix Campaign 1" in the small area of Thanh Phong and Gia Thanh villages and during this battle guerrilla forces shot down one helicopter, killing a British Colonel Air Force Commander of the Far East and two American’s. Twenty-years later, Bryford, Jr. graduated from West Point, but there was no further information on Case 0028 until October 1992, when the Vietnamese provided the U. S. Defense Intelligence Agency with over 4000 photographs and four original identification cards belonging to missing American servicemen. One of the ID cards was that of PFC John Straley. No further details were provided regarding how the ID card came to be in the possession of the Vietnamese, however, it was turned over to the family. In March 1993, A joint U.S./VN team interviewed Nguyen Van Phuong, assistant platoon leader of the 10th Plt, 2nd Co, 516th Bn, Ben Tre Province Forces, who claimed to have shot down an American aircraft during the "20-Day Battle" in January 1964 with a submachine gun when it flew over Thanh Phong Village. Phuong said the aircraft burned and crashed in the 5 ½ mile wide mouth of the river towards Tra Vinh Province. Several months later, a villager complained to Phuong that he was upset because the wreckage of the aircraft Phung had shot down had snagged his fishing net. In 1969 or 1970, the same villager and two of his sons were bottom-fishing on a raft at the depth of 16 feet in the fast-moving river when their net snagged the tail of a helicopter at Bung Dune, My Long Village, Cau Ngang District, Tra Vinh Province. They tried to recover the tail, but it was too heavy. The Thanh Phu Peninsula borders the ocean to the east, the Ham Luong River to the north, and the Co Chien River to the south. On 22 September 2010, JPAC visited the alleged underwater crash location between My Long Nam and Hiep Thanh villages with the two sons of the fisherman as guides. After a 30-minute boat ride three miles from shore, the team determined the depth of the water at the alleged crash site was approximately 23 feet. The team leader estimated an undercover operation would require a hundred plus laborers. Metoyer and Straley continue to be listed among the missing. - See more at: Virtual Vietnam Veterans Wall of Faces | JOHN L STRALEY | ARMY (http://www.vvmf.org/Wall-of-faces/50218/JOHN-L-STRALEY#sthash.yPLRjlnh.dpuf)

[4Greens]

Qantas did trooping flights to Saigon during the war. There some Brits amongst the crews.

[chopper2004]

Slightly digressing but came across these on the web, where VNAF and Cambodian a/c visited RAF Changi,

cheers

http://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/1202974/cambodian-c-47s-raf-changi/?search_hash=e17ad4a15606a0a9d02803aa3e1aabb6&search_offset=0&search_limit=100&search_sort_by=

http://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/1201499/south-vietnamese-c-47s-at-raf-changi/?search_hash=e17ad4a15606a0a9d02803aa3e1aabb6&search_offset=0&search_limit=100&search_sort_by=

[Old Photo.Fanatic]

I knew and met in the USA an ex USAF Pilot who gave me a load of Slides from his time in Vietnam, flying CAP missions.
For me the icing on the cake is a slide of a Beverly at Saigon, with obvious operational USAF aircraft in the background.

Make of it what you will

OPF

[ian16th]

Make of it what you will

I'll guess at engine problems!

[Dan Winterland]

Or at Beverly speeds - maybe scurvy.

[ancientaviator62]

I suspect the Beverley was doing what we later did with the Hercules as noted in my earlier post.

[Tengah Type]

Or maybe just a pit stop. The Argosys also stopped there enroute between HK and Singapore. Watching a mass heli operation of scores of choppers lifting off together was awe inspiring ( and very noisy! ).

[ORAC]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-s-secret-vietnam-war-missions-lx2056nl8

Britain provided covert assistance to western forces in the Vietnam War by flying secret missions over Laos, the daughter of a former Royal Air Force navigator has claimed. Flight Lieutenant Donald Roberts, who was based in Asia with the RAF at the time, confided in his family decades later that he had taken part in flying Handley Page Hastings transport aircraft over Laos in the second half of 1962.

The alleged secret flights were designed to help close off the Ho Chi Minh Trail, a key logistics route that was used to resupply the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese army fighting in the South. The RAF helped to transport New Zealand SAS personnel and other cargo to the remote and mountainous area, Roberts told his daughter, Priscilla Roberts, a professor at City University of Macau, years after the event.

She has detailed his narrative in a published paper for a Cold War history initiative convened by the Woodrow Wilson International Centre for Scholars, a think tank in Washington. Her father, who died in 2014, aged 84, was unable to provide proof of his claims, as he told his daughter that the airmen had been forbidden to record the flights in their logbooks. He had, however, been permitted to record flights between his permanent base in Changi, Singapore, and Thailand. It was from Chiang Mai airfield in northern Thailand or Don Muang airport near Bangkok that the Laos missions were launched, he recalled.

In one entry in his flying logbook he had written “Radio Compass Malfunction!” next to details of a flight from Singapore to Chiang Mai.

Professor Roberts wrote, however: “My father confirmed to me that nothing of the sort had occurred. Given the particular sensitivity of this flight, with a British airplane ferrying NZSAS operatives on a mission into supposedly neutralised Laos, this entry may have been a precaution, just in case word of this flight did eventually leak out. In the interests of plausible deniability this would have allowed the British government to cite navigational difficulties as the reason for intruding into Laotian airspace.” She added: “Tight security was evident in other aspects. My father recalled that as this group of men were waiting on the tarmac to board the aircraft he attempted to chat with the team members, introducing himself and asking who they were. Those who replied all laconically informed him that their name was ‘Smith’.”

Keeping the involvement over Laos secret would have been imperative to Britain as it had played a significant role in securing the neutral status of the nation in the war, having co-chaired a global conference to agree the terms. Britain, along with the US, Soviet Union, China and ten other nations, signed the deal in July 1962, pledging to respect the neutrality of Laos.

Roberts told his daughter that the first of six missions he flew over Laos took place just as the Geneva agreements were being signed. His explanation for Britain being drawn into Laos was that the RAF had the four-engine Handley Page Hastings aircraft, which were more reliable for flights over the mountainous terrain than America’s single and twin-engine aircraft.

London was also under immense political pressure from Washington to contribute in the war. Roberts said that at the end of 1962 he believed that the flights were taken over by Air America, the passenger and cargo airline secretly owned by the US government from 1950 to 1976.

Captain John Sullivan, 84, a friend of Roberts and a contemporary at RAF Changi in the 1960s, said that he had not been aware of the Laos flights but confirmed that secret missions had taken place. “It’s quite possible. We did occasionally do things like that, but I wasn’t involved [in these alleged flights],” he said.

A search of RAF records and declassified UK intelligence reports in the National Archives did not yield proof of the alleged missions but senior military figures believe that the claims are plausible. Air Chief Marshal Sir Michael Graydon, a former head of the RAF, said: “I cannot be sure that the flights described took place but the evidence is convincing; moreover, 48 Squadron was based at Changi up until 1967 and equipped at that time with the Hastings aircraft which, being four-engined, would have been better for operations in the rugged terrain of Laos than twin-engine aircraft.”

Professor Roberts, 63, said she hoped that her paper would encourage others with any knowledge of the missions to come forward.

[Tankertrashnav]

I'll guess at engine problems!

Probably Ian. In 1967 a 34 Sqn Beverly captained by the squadron commander was about to depart Saigon when the FE reported a mag drop on one engine as they were doing their checks just short of the runway. After less than a minute ATC asked what the delay was and was told that they had a problem and were looking into it. They were then told to look out to their right where they would see a line of bulldozers approaching them. If they hadn't moved by the time the bulldozers reached them they would be unceremoniously shoved out of the way onto the grass. At that stage of the war take offs and landings were continuous, and I guess they didn't want operations to be held up by one antique RAF transport aircraft.

They accepted the mag drop and flew back to Seletar without incident!

Just as an aside I was in an RNZAF Bristol Freighter which staged through Qui Nohn just before the 1968 Tet Offensive. I had never seen so many helicopters in my life - awe inspiring.

[Wander00]

ISTR that AVM Sir Alan Boxer's obituary recorded that he flew B29s with the USAF over Vietnam. He had previously flown agents into Europe during the war

[SASless]

This is the article being referred to I am thinking.


https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/the-british-royal-air-force-operations-over-laos-against-the-ho-chi-minh-trail-1962

[SASless]

TTN.....when we kicked off the foray into Cambodia in early 1970......I was part of a 620 helicopter formation....more a gaggle than a single unified formation.

We were told....you depart after.....and a finger pointed to a Company sized unit of helicopters.

We all had our particular task assigned....and in turn off we went (akin to the flight of the Monkey's in the film "The Wizard of Oz") and pretty well. operated independently.

What was fun was upon returning to refuel....the queue got awfully long for the number of fuel nozzles available.

At which point it was more like a Circus than we would like to admit.

[Old-Duffer]

Wing Commander Alan Lee MVO

Lee was recovered from the water (washed up on a beach) and is buried in Orpington. His parent unit is described as 'RAF Bangkok'

Old Duffer

[chopper2004]

A rather rare photo of an operational RAF aircraft and pilot in Vietnam during The American War:
http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/devons/mswineyVP978.jpg
Tan Son Nhut 1970

and another photo of another one at Hue the same year:
http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/devons/VP962_Hue_010770.jpg

Both photos taken from the RAFinfo website (http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/devons/VP962ms.htm).

One can see said Air Attache's Devon on the pan at 0:11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTzEgz0r3Y4

Cheers

[chopper2004]

20 years ago, I worked with an ex-RE officer (who had been med discharged early as a result of a rubgy injury) and his father who was IIRC, a Lt.Col? in the RE at the time, had been a junior officer in the RE in the late 1960's and was on an exchange tour with a Kiwi army engineer unit that was then detached to Vietnam while he was on secondment. He went to Vietnam and did a combat tour with them.

Reminds me of a good friend and former colleague from my offshore helicopter ,maintenance days, now retired. He was in the AAC - REME in the 60s. He was based in the Far East with a Sioux troop or sqn in Borneo or Singapore and when I was rattling on about Vietnam helicopter ops, he said the Sappers went into Thailand for either an exercise or to help the Royal Thai Army in construction of a bridge, and couple of Sioux accompanied the Sappers. they did their job and left, no hint of any skullduggery or cross border ops that he was aware of.

Cheers