Sorry, you're too late...

[Little Chief]

I recently travelled for the first time on one of the well known low cost airlines. Due to the unfortunate circumstances of someone on the rail track, a fast train to the airport was cancelled and the result of this was that I arrived at the check-in desk just 2 minutes after the official check-in time (1/2 hour before departure). A couple of others on the same train were just also 1 minute late. However, despite reasoned argument, we were all politely told, sorry you're too late, you can't get on this plane.

Now, granted, we probably should have allowed for such a delay, but nevertheless, this seemed somewhat inflexible. It was the last plane of the day, the plane was not full and not one of us were carrying more than just hand lugage. Two of the travellers were also frequent flyers of that route.

Allegedly, this was a decision of the captain. But I was just wondering if this is standard and reasonable practice across airlines and if others have experienced it.

Alternatively, is this an extreme case of sticking to the rules and inflexibility. Certainly, I would question whether I would use that airline again, and could not possibly recommend it for the business traveller who may have to make a late dash to the airport.

[PAXboy]

For the most part - this is standard butthe details for all carriers are going to vary.

For example, if you are at LHR, the answer is NO because it will take too long to get through security and out to a distant gate.

At LTN the distance is shorter and they might say yes to hand luggage only.

At STN you have to use the shuttle and that might intorduce too long a delay.

The use of the phrase "The captain's decision" may - or may not - be a ruse as it sounds better than, my supervisor's decision. Because, naturally, you would then ask to speak to the supervisor, whereas you know that you cannot speak to the captain!

Also, the cost to a carrier of missing their slot is enormous.

[Fraudsquads]

LC

I hazard a guess from your post that you are refering to a STN flight. However, if you are refering to LTN and EASY then surely you have seen the program Airline on which the girls in Orange would turn pax away at least once on each and every episode.

My point is, if the airline is not prepared to allow pax to check-in after check-in closes then nobody should expect anything else.

As PAXboy says, point out that you have hold baggage and offer to run. If they say no, bad luck!! There has to be a cut off time set and some will always be tooo late.

(perhaps there should be a set of traffic lights above the check-in desks)

[Fast Jet Wannabe]

Correct my if I'm wrong, but this sounds very much like you were booked on a Ryanair flight?

[somewhatconcerned]

Rules is rules. Security needs to maintained slots need to be made and precidents must be avoided. If you were catching a train it would have gone without you whether you reserved a seat or not.

[flyblue]

Yes, that sounds standard. If thay have already sent the message "last baggage", then the procedure for reopening is complicated and comes with lots of moaning from all those concerned. One day one of the nicest persons in CDG, an AZ supervisor, had it done for me and he went through so much hassle that I wondered how he could have felt like doing that (obviously he gor a chocolate box on my next passage and now we are in friendly terms :) )
When I am even 1 minute late and I see that the procedure is closed, I don't even ask.

[Little Chief]

Well, this post is not a total moan, so I guess it won't harm to say the airline in question was EasyJet, flying from Luton.
As was mentioned, I think we were the "compulsary" passengers per episode of airline that get turned away - cameras in fact there and filming everything going on. Maybe this is the reason why we were at least offered flights the following morning at no extra cost (except overnight accom.). I wonder if this is standard practice?

I understand the fact that rules are rules, however, attempting constructive debate, feel that in this situation they could have tried to help out and enhance a "helpful" reputation. Its a couple of minutes to the gate (walking) and everyone had hand language. The other passengers would not have boarded yet, the plane was not full and there would have been no delay for the aircraft. I know (personally and from others) of many occasions where this would not have been an issue. If you think about it, it would probably take longer for them to put lugage in the hold when we arrived just one minute before close, than it would to let us through with hand lugage a minute after close.

Maybe they could have staggered check-in close for those with and those without hold lugage. No doubt some will argue this is moving the goal posts again, but in reality hand lugage only must be quicker, and its one less thing that passengers could use against the airline when not being allowed through.

[Nihontraveller]

Its more frustrating after standing in the queue for half an hour! I have seen it a few times recently at the LH economy checkin desks in Frankfurt. A single long queue through the baggage security screening and back across the departure hall. If you don`t listen carefully (German language helps) or even push your way to the front its easy to believe that since you are in the queue you will be checked in even if you are a few minutes late. I witnessed a great episode recently when an Italian guy in front of me made this mistake. He was standing at least 30 minutes in the queue and got to the desk about 5 mins late for his checkin time. The resulting arguement was a joy to watch with full gesticulation! (And he still didn`t get on!)

:D
(Sorry, shouldn`t smile!)

[SectorBabe]

Little Chief
I work for easyJet as cabin crew and for the four years I have been there, the captain has not been asked ONCE if they will accept a late passenger! Ground staff use this excuse to pass the buck. (Apologies to our ground staff, however you KNOW it is true!)
The reason that they could not allow you onto the flight is that the check-in computer system automatically shuts down at -30 mins so even if you were travelling with NO luggage, be it hand or hold, and could run like Mr Christie, you can not be checked into the system. Obviously for for security reasons, that is a no-no!:)
I know it is very annoying - I expereienced it myself this weekend. Thanks to some lady in the Tickets sales desk taking soooo long, my friend, who was trying to transfer on to a flight, missed it because by the time he got to the front of the queue, the system had closed the flight. The people on the desk knew that myself and my husband, who were travelling aswell, were staff, but STILL could not do anything!
Like you said, you could possibly account for any train delay in your travelling time, but for some people, especially businessmen, this is easier said than done.
But people must also understand that we are a business and we have to be quite firm with the rules - if the goalposts are moved or we do it for one passenger etc... then that starts to become the 'Norm' and people will expect it everytime.
I am sorry that you missed you flight and I hate to think that you would not fly with us because of it. I hope this explains the situation for you.....:D :D :D

[Little Chief]

Thanks SectorBabe for explaining this. I'm sure if we had of been told this at the time, all involved would have been much more understanding (even if still frustrated) - although as you say, for business travellers who might have to leave it to the last minute it must have some influence on their decision to fly with EZ. Maybe Mr. Stelios can look in the future at ways to help them too.

On the positive side, I had no other complaints with the flights we did catch.

[atco-matic]

Well just to let you all know that it CAN happen and the rules CAN be bent if the check in staff like you and you have a mobile fone...

I was travelling by god awful (running late)train and tube to Heathrow for Virgin flight to Jo'burg in January. Friend already at check in desk rings me on the tube to find out where I am. Me not thinking it wold be a problem as I was at Ealing on the Piccadilly line, still with 1hr 15 mins til departure, but oh dear check in closes in 15 minutes (1 hr before departure).

Friend (male and quite handsome) sweet talks check in girlies who say they will wait til 45 mins before departure. 15 minutes left and I am at Hounslow East. Check in girlies not convinced i'll make it... neither am I!

At last, tube arrives at Heathrow Central. It's 2043... 2 minutes to get to terminal three. Nearly knock dawdly bloke over with Samsonite on platform(sorry if youre reading this)... run as much as I can with Samsonite and rucksack to Terminal 3... Arrive at check in desk at 2045 on the dot.

Boarding pass and luggage tag already issued before flight closed... bag tagged and we make haste to the plane.

Thanks to those check in staff staying behind late, my holiday was 10 days instead of 9, for which I will always be indebted.

BUT it just goes to show you that there ARE some NICE check in staff out there who are prepared to bend the rules in the name of customer service... as an air traffic controller we have pages and pages of rules, but one of those is ''Nothing in these rules shall prevent an air traffic controller from applying descretion as they see fit'' admittedly not word for word but I can't remember the exact wording.

Maybe it's time so other people started to take the same line, like our nice friends at Heathrow!

[Hand Solo]

Well a simple solution is that next time you're travelling on business choose a proper business airline, not a low cost carrier that claims it is. If you'd been on BA they'd have ground staff scouring the queues for people running late, and if you could make it to the gate with hand luggage before departure time you'd be on. I've had loads of runners arrive seconds before departure and still make it, and as BA has invested in radio loadsheet technology it doesn't mess up the paperwork whether you make it or not, so generally you're allowed to have a go. Plus we probably have a later flight than easy as well.:)

[Fraudsquads]

Why do check in 'blame it on the skipper' when the truth is a computer system calls the shots?

you can be P**sed off with the captain because you know he's a person in control but who or where is the guy who wrote the program behind the checkin system? nobody as far as the pax are concerned!!

IMHO blame it on the system and not a human and I'm sure the pax will accept it more readily.

FS

[OzPax1]

Actually it's the load controllers who control the computer close off, and so they are the only ones who can 'reopen' the flight and except you as 'LMC's' (Last Minute Changes). It all depends on were your aircraft is(for remote & bused stands, forget it!) & how busy the airport is (how quickly you'll get through security), as to wether they'll except you. The loadie may or may not consult the captain of the flight concernd depending on how close it is to the slot time. At the end of the day the captain WILL generally support the ground crew decision in this matter. So my advice is leave PLENTY (and I mean PLENTY) of time for getting to the airport, so that you can complete check-in before it closes for the flight.

[AOG007]

Sectorbabe,

Check-in systems (DCS - Departure Control System) do have a number of automatic functions running in the background. Check-in close-out is not one of them.
These systems are required to be closed by the load control team, situated normally in a grotty little rooms situated under buildings. Basically they are normally locked away from view.

They have to interact with the customer service team before check-in is closed to produce the load documentation. Without liason, check-in could be closed (if automatic) whilst check-in staff were in the middle of a transaction, and as anyone who uses a PC at home will know, this causes problems.

This can often lead to too many pax onboard, or too many bags in the hold. These two common problems more often than not delay flights whilst baggage ID's are carried out, or crew are carrying out headcounts, and trying to establish which passengers are onboard, which according to the PC are not meant to be.

Passengers, get there on time. Its the easiest way. Yet if you are lucky enough to be travelling with an airline that spends money on customer services, ie, check-in kiosks, telephone check-in, gate check-in, and other such services, then should something go wrong you might just be OK. Spend peanuts on your flight, and, well, Need I say more!

:D :rolleyes: :D

[flyblue]

Words of wisdom, AOG007 !

[OzPax1]

AOG007 just put more concisely what i said. And Grotty little rooms is spot on!!! ;) :p :D :D

[Hartington]

There seem to a number of issues here, first I believe most, if not all, the low cost carriers don't use conventional reservations and DCS systems. The common alternative is HP Open Res, maybe shutting a flight automatically at -30 (or some other preset time) is a function of that system.

Second, I do believe you are more likely to get a better deal with the "conventional" carriers in circumstances like this. Some years ago my mother turned up at Heathrow for a New York flight with an expired passport. Just over 2 hours before departure she phoned me saying "what do I do now?". I said, take a taxi, go home and get the valid passport. While she lived in Chiswick she was due to travel on the last flight (in those days 1800/1830) so she was going to get caught in traffic; and she was. The taxi driver did his best but they got back to Heathrow at about -25. She grabbed the nearest staff member, explained her problem and was wisked to the head of check in, through security and down to the aircraft (which of course was at the end of the longest pier) just as the doors closed. And her bag made it too. These days, with security, I suspect she wouldn't have made it with those timings, but then she'd be at the airport earlier so who knows?

[gulf_slf]

I had an experience with the (old) PAN AM on flight from LAX to SFO back in Jan '91, when returning from a magic holiday in Thailand via HKG.

However when we arrived at LAX (after a 12 hour sector) the CX skipper told us due to a 'go-slow' by immigration staff and increased security due to the Gulf war, the terminal was full to capacity and that we would have to wait on the flight until the terminal became sufficiently free to allow us to disembark.

Meanwhile the freight and baggage from the a/c was unloaded. Our bags were inter-lined to the PAN AM flight at the domestic terminal.

The queues were horrendous! Realising the push back time for our connecting flight was close we asked a CX representative if she could assist, which she did by persuading the immigration to allow us to enter via the crew line.

From there it was a mad dash to the other terminal, through security to the gate. We made it to the flight gate as they were still boarding the flight, however when I presented the tickets (OK 100% firm commercial) the ticket agent glanced at me, my wife with baby and the foldable 'buggy'. He hrugged his shoulders and said that he had given the seats to standby pax as he felt we were too late! Having just crossed the Pacific with the family we were pretty shattered and not exactly amused by this.

Any remonstration was futile and he stood his ground saying it would cause too much hassle trying to get us on! Whilst I could accept that I was completely astonished by what followed.

In that case I said, 'Fair enough! Please inform the skipper that our bags are on board the flight (having been inter-lined) and that they should be removed before he departed!'

This was within 23 months of the Lockerbie bombing, so I would have thought that any responsible person in Pan Am would have taken action to remove the cases immediately! The agent made a comment that I was trying to deliberately trying to delay the flight as he had refused us seats and got very irritated! He even refused to to inform the skipper and the flight began its departure! I was absolutely flabber-gasted by this.

Whilst I had threatened to take this to Pan Am's management I failed to follow it through unfortunately.

Sure enough when we arrived at SFO (some 6 hours later on later flight...PAN AM refused to endorse the tickets to another airline!) our bags had been taken off the carousel and left to one side! So much for security!!

Pan Am were out of business in less than 18 months after that..however I didnt shed any tears about it as they were a dreadful airline in those last few years and deserved to be placed on the scrap heap!::mad: :mad:

[PAXboy]

I think that all the exceptions prove the rule. Be there early!

However, there is one point that was only briefly touched on my one person - security.

I am a regular at LTN and of EZY, so know the system and fastest line between check-in and gate!

Let us say that check-in say, "OK, you have no hold bags and you can run for it." THEN security are concerned, you are flustered. Maybe sweating heavily? This is a classic of someone trying to beat the system by being deliberately late and blustering their way through.

They might choose to open your hand case and go through it in minute detail. They might choose to take you aside and question you further.

What happens to the, "It'll only take two minute to run to the gate." then?

I am one who likes to get to check-in very early but I too have been held up by traffic on M25 and had to run for it through LHR. It happens to all of us.

As for the offer of flight the next morning. If this is standard policy, it would be offered. If it isn't, it wouldn't!!

[bealine]

Unfortunately, every Customer Opinion survey carried out by airlines over the last 30 years has highlighted "Punctuality" as the number one priority.

1. To ensure a punctual arrival, the airline must ensure a punctual
departure.
2. To ensure a punctual departure, the airline must have a punctual push-back.
3. To ensure a punctual push back, we must have punctual door closure.
4. To ensure a punctual door closure, we must ensure punctual load sheet production.
5. To ensure punctual load sheet production, we must ensure punctual check-in closure.

To hold an aircraft on stand at LGW beyond 7 minutes can result in a 2 hour delay awaiting a new slot, at a penalty cost to the airline of £300 per minute for a 737 sized aircraft. Against this, is it reasonable to expect any airline afford to hold for late running passengers?

Basic really, but unfortunate for the late passenger!

:rolleyes:

[PPRuNe Dispatcher]

It's not always the fault of the passenger. Case in point :

A couple of weeks ago I was flying to Heathrow from Frankfurt. Flight departed at 1330, checkin by 1230.

I arrived shortly after 1000 as I wanted to get a bite to eat and do some work, so I joined the rather long Lufthansa queue at 1005. I didn't get checked in until 1250. The checkin for my flight actually closed at 1300 so I did make it.

For some strange reason, that normally full flight was almost empty.

[no sig]

Bealine's got it in one. There was a time when airlines could easily rush passengers to the gate, for the most part those days are long past, what with security and slots etc.

We also have the problem of inconsiderate passengers who bear no thought for their travelling companions( I'm not suggesting you are Little Chief) but, I've known late passengers who have been checked in after closure, told to 'run' to the gate or they'll miss it, yet still find time time to rush through the Duty/Tax Free, stand at the sales desk get their purchase, and stroll to the gate only to delay the flight.

In truth it isn't the check in staff you should asking, it's the other passengers who run the risk of a missed slot and the subsequent delay.

Perhaps we need an article explaining all this in the In Flight mag SectorBabe.

[GoGirl]

And really...if a few thousand other people can do it...surely you can too ;)

Why bend the rules/regs or, hey, even the protocol for anyone?
It's all there for reasons, and check-in staff, regardless of how customer focused, should never be the ones to make such decisions.
Otherwise, why would there be load controllers :confused:

I think the general consensus is to arrive well within the scheduled departure time of your flight. If you are a business traveller, and that reliant upon a high level of service, by way of resources which allow for the flexability you seek, then perhaps it's time to re-think your choice of carrier, and be prepared to dig into your pocket a little deeper :cool:


Regards
GG

[paulo]

Checked In on time? You can still be 'too late'.

At least one of the major US airlines (Delta) used to sell or reallocate the seats of passengers who didn't turn up at the gate within 15 minutes of departure (irrespective of whether boarding had been actually been completed).

They also used to fly with the resulting unaccompanied luggage, rather than take it off.

SO; Read your terms and conditions very carefully! Including clauses about punctuality at the gate. Anything displayed or not displayed on the airport info screens is immaterial. The gate clause allows them to give your seat away even if the info screens have not shown your flight to be 'boarding'.

[SectorBabe]

What a good idea, no sig! Maybe an article on a day in the life of YB!!:D

Might suggest it to the boss lady!:)

[timzsta]

I work for a low cost airline at Stansted as a Check In agent. I hope in my post to explain the "no you are too late" problem, offering an insight for those unfortunate enough to have experienced this problem. My points are made in no particular order:

1) The "Captains decision" as was talked about no doubt refers to the "loadsheet". This is legal document that the Captain must sign to certify that the aircraft has been loaded properly. Its compilation takes time and the information required for it is basically the unladen weight of the aircraft, the weight of the passengers, baggage, crew and cargo. These are added up produce the ZFW (zero fuel weight) for the flight. Based on the ZFW the exact fuel load is calculated (a heavier aircraft needs more fuel to fly the same distance as one that is lighter). The loadsheet also instructs the baggage handlers as to how many bags/cargo to put into each hold. It is vitally important that the load is spread equally so as to keep the aircraft in "trim", as if it is not the aircraft will not handle properly (serious safety issue). As you can see from the explanation the loadsheet is a quite complicated issue, hence time is required to do it and then take the associated actions. Information from the loadsheet is then used to calculate performance figures for the flight - ie take speeds and distances. So as you can see the loadsheet cant be completed until check in has been closed, and if check in is then re-opened the whole procedure must be redone, which equals delay and associated costs to airline and many passengers, not just the one person who is late at check in.

2) There is the issue of the time it takes to get from check in to the departure gate. This is due to the time it takes to get through security and at Stansted to then get on the train to the gates.

3) The point made about the Italian gentlemen with I believe it was LH who was stuck in a que, in my opinion, is poor practise by the airline concerned. With the airline I work for in the minutes leading up to closure of check in one of our supervisors will scour the que for any last passengers and bring them to the front, just like BA does at Heathrow.

4) As intimated at para 1, an airline has to draw a line in the sand after which it will no longer except any more passengers, whatever type of airline it is. Even if this was 10 mins before departure there would always be a time when someone turns up 8 minutes before and expects to still get on!

5) Passengers do have to take some responsibility for getting to the airport on time. Travel information is available from many sources to aid in planning journey time.

6) The issue regarding "take you bags and run to the gate" is a contentious one at the moment, following events last September. In airline speak these people are called LMC (last minute change) or HAG (have a go). Many airlines no longer allow this I believe as (please correct if I am wrong), some of those involved in 9/11 atrocities got onto the aircraft as LMC/HAG, taking advantage of the fact that because of the rushed nature of this procedure security would not have been handled so tightly in their case.

I hope this points go someway to explaining the situation thoroghly, would be great if a Pilot could elaborate on the "loadsheet/Captains decision" bit perhaps. Finally whenever you travel by air always check the terms & conditions, particularly check in time, baggage allowances, and allow plenty of time to get to the airport, park, find your check in area, que, check in, clear security and get to the gate.

[FlapsOne]

timzsta

What you say is very true.

From the flight deck, when you have been given the loadsheet, normally after the last pax has boarded, you are minutes away from departure. It is, very literally, the last piece of the puzzle which must be signed to allow the aircraft to depart the stand and legally fly.

Anyone pitching up after this creates no end of problems if they were to be accepted fot the flight. Firstly the time issue. Is it right to delay hundreds of people purely because someone couldn't make it to check in on time? - FOR WHATEVER REASON!.

Missing a slot in Summer at some of the busier London airports can spell disaster for the airline. Potentially hours of delay, not only for that flight but also for all subsequent trips with that airframe. The likelihood that the operating crew, possibly on their 3rd or 4th sector that day, will now run out of legal duty hours and force the call out of a replacement crew. At worst it could cause the cancellation of a later flight on that line of flying - all because of 1 or 2 people who cannot see past their own personal needs.

Comments we have all seen on popular TV shows like '...but the aircraft is still on the stand just waiting......" show nothing but a complete, and sadly often deliberate, misunderstanding of even the basics of mounting a public transport operation (whether it be busses, trains or aircraft).

Believe me, we want to take ALL pax booked on any flight. We will all bend over backwards to accomodate them but, there comes a point beyond which we cannot reasonably go so, dear Pax, please don't ask us to.

[Capt Pit Bull]

I would just like to add that it is quite common at the airline and base that I work for, that even though a passenger checks in before the cut off time, and even though the bag successfully makes it into the hold, the passenger themselves doesn't get to the aircraft in time.

So, for security reasons, Loaders then have to get all the bags out of the hold and locate the bags associated with the missing passenger. Result? Delays at best, missed slot at worst.

My involvement in this process is strictly to get the aircraft moving with the minimum delay. Theres no point scoring - if the passenger turns up before the loaders find their bag, then they travel. If they find the bag first, we're gone...

And this is what happens when people check in
on time. If you're late, unless the terminal is very small and unbusy, you're on a no hoper.

CPB

[Little Chief]

I recently travelled in Australia and flew on Virgin Blue a couple of times. I consider this the low cost option over there.

Firstly, check in closed just 15 minutes before departure - and the impression given was that they would go out of their way to get you on board even after that - sure there are a lot of other factors, but it seemed no big deal over there - so why in the UK?

Secondly, one particular passenger (whom I assumed had checked in already) didn't turn up for boarding - there was some 20 minutes of calling for the passenger who still didn't arrive. Everyone was running round desparately trying to find out where he was. Credit to the staff who were going out of their way to track them down, right until the latest minute possible - but I bet that wouldn' t happen over here.

Thirdly, another flight I was checked in for was delayed. I was allowed to transfer to another flight to the same destination in order to make a connection at my destination. My luggage was already on board the original aircraft - and the alternative flight was already boarding - yet it seemed to be no big deal to make the new arrangements. How is it that this can be managed in oz, and yet over here everything is so much more difficult?

Is this down to a more regulated operation in the UK, or just that we like to make things more difficult? The airport in question was Sydney - not particularly quiet, and the aircraft were all full.

[bealine]

I hate to say it but:

(a) Australia has, so far, been kept well clear of terrorist activity and
(b) Virgin Blue is a new, naive airline without much experience

Please remember, Mohammed Atta (the pilot of one of the World Trade Centre airliners) was a Business Class passenger accepted after flight closure! (You can just imagine him saying "I must have an aisle seat near the front!")

Unfortunately for the majority of our passengers, that is the reality of the situation and why all airlines must continually be on guard - particularly as regards late "runners"!

[Little Chief]

Funnily enough, I was given seat 1D when transferred onto the other flight!

[DistantRumble]

As a 'Business person' - referred to in this forum thread , with more than a fair connection to aviation and someone who flys a hell of a lot

I knew most of this and thanks for explaining the rest.

I've done the T1 LHR Aer Lingus HAG from checkin to Gate 90 and hold the Friday evening record ;-)

BUT if I didn't make it in time I'd know that the chance had at least been offered.

This is one of the reasons, I believe why gate staff have communications equipment - to let you know we're coming.

Now I know also that I wouldn't expect anything with bags to check in.

Nothing wrong with letting people try.


AND most furious , furious thing of all - racing to check in for an 0650 flight from Ireland/UK to the continent running all the way

'Check in Closing' sounding on the PA

Get your seat,sit down

Captain comes on tannoy

' Sorry we have a 40 minute ATC Eurocontrol delay'

It works both ways folks.

[FlapsOne]

DistantRumble

It has been said many times before, but I'll say it again just on the off-chance that the message gets home.

A flight may have a slot issued by Eurocontrol but that can change at a moments notice. The message can come suddenly to say your slot is 10 mins from now. In this case you must be ready to push back, start engines and GO - no delay. If you miss this new slot you could face hours of further delays.

Therefore the only place to be is on the aircraft, doors closed with tug attached and wait. There is no time to load any pax after the improvement has been received which is why we put you on board and close the gate. We don't do this for fun.

Don't tell me it works both ways.......because it does not!

[timzsta]

Flaps One is exactly right. Let us imagine the situation. 757 at Heathrow Terminal 1. 170 passengers on board, going to, say Frankfurt on a morning service. Lots of businessmen and women with important meetings to go to, big money riding on them.

Captain makes an announcement along the lines of this:
"Ladies and Gentlemen, we originally had a 40 minute ATC Eurocontrol delay. I was offered a slot in 5 minutes from now but I have turned it down to allow Mr Smith to make the flight, who just phoned us to say he is stuck in traffic on the Heathrow spur, and should be here in around 25 minutes."

Aircraft arrives in Frankfurt 25 minutes late. Many passengers miss their meetings, lose their contract. Not just this flight but all flights operated by that aircraft for the rest of the day. All these passengers claim compensation from airline for delay. Said airline would be bust in no time.

Get to check in on time, thousands manage it each day.

[DistantRumble]

lads...


I know ... but knowing it does not stop it making me furious and feeling the worst kind of SLF when it happens.

Withdrawing the airbridge and shutting the doors only takes a minute.

[ and yes the ground handler might be needed somewhere else since effectively that flight has departed... blah blah blah]

What everyone seems to be saying is that there is no slack in the system to deal with SLF.

And anyway, with what the previous poster said, It's normally over 25 minutes late anyway.

Dublin to heathrow (same for BMI or Aer Lingus)
2/3 minutes delay boarding last passenger
av. 10 minutes (being generous ) for slot and pushback
av 5 minutes for takeoff (all those early birds off )
av. 6-8 mins in the hold over OCK/LAM or wherever
av 4 (at least) extra mins taxiing from 27L ( why do I always get 27L ) to T1 Paddygates
av. 1/2 mins waiting for ground handler to steer gate in

Add it up.
These are all usuals. Everyone is trying though, but it all adds up.

When I get into the Heathrow T1 Arrivals I walk downstairs get on the lift and get the train to Paddington. 17 mins later I'm there. It's never been late yet. And look, the passengers load themselves too.


From experience when I have to fly I never schedule a meeting at the other end that doesn't have at least 2 hours slack or can be rescheduled

Why ... because I'm flying

[PAXboy]

DistantRumble,

With ref to the Heathrow Shuttle and the fact that it always leaves on time. That's because:

1) There is no airbridge to withdraw and secure.
2) No hermetically sealed door to be closed in the correct way or else the train cannot move an inch.
3) No reporting of these events to other people via radio or telephone.
4) No tug or chocks.
5) No ground walker to assist during push-back.
6) No engines to start.
7) No taxi.
etcetera.

When the time for departure arrives, the train operator (not a driver as it is automated) looks along the platform and pushes the button to close the doors. If someone is caught in the doors, they half open them and close again.

They then push a button and the train departs on a dedicated track where the previous departure was 15 minutes earlier. OF COURSE it leaves on time!

OF COURSE it's frustrating to get on board and get a delay but that delay has not been generated by the flight and cabin crew.

[DistantRumble]

Thanks PAxBoy

but your reply is only bolstering my argument.

You lay out a lot of points there about HEx and my answer to every one of them is

"It was designed not to need them"

or has a safety system already built in that is better and more reliable than the one you mention, therefore either eliminating causes of delay or making them predictable ones that can be factored into the timetable.

But I'm kind of destroying my own original argument, because HEx won't wait for me !

!But! there's another one along in 15 or 20 mins and my boarding card can be purchased on the train itself ( for a little extra ) Try doing that on an airline. (yes I know about weights etc etc blah blah bore dangerous snooze )

[DistantRumble]

And anyway, Paxboy, when did I say the flight crew caused the delays ? I don't think I ever wrote that .

The main point of my contributions to this thread is to ask /plead for a two way thing and point out that the ENTIRE system contributes delays that add up to a hell of a lot more than anything that passengers create.
Flexibility is everything.

[PAXboy]

Hi DR,
No, I did not suggest that you suggested that flight and cabin crew contributed to delays - but you commented that you took it out on them, through very PAXey kind of behaviour!

I think it true to say that the crux is that the airline 'system' (for want of better word) as operated in Europe, is not just out of capacity but totally swamped.

I recall an occasion at LHR on 5th Nov 1997 (Guy Fawkes was totally washed out) when a VS machine had a problem with undercarriage on arrival. It was expected but the machine blocked the southern runway from about 15:00 that day.

The back log of aircraft spilled over into the next day. Then into the next day, because machines were in the wrong place. I was going to Paris that night (5th) and was severly delayed.

It made me realise how very serious the situation is - one runway out of action for less than 24 hours and the effects were felt for three days. :eek:

I realise that this drifts rather from the points that you were making and the two way break that you are seeking. But because there is zero spare capacity in the 'system', no one can give you anything back.
:confused:

[bealine]

Hi Distant Rumble

It is not through choice that we leave late passengers behind, it is the sad fact that, security aside, airlines have been "stuffed" by certain late passengers, resulting in loss of revenue.

Prior to Sept 11th and the clampdown on Have - A - Go pax, here are some exploits:

1. E-Tickets that haven't been paid for
2. Fraudulent use of revalidation stickers to avoid rebooking charge
3. Fraudulent use of "back to back" tickets
4. Fraudulent use of tickets for class to which passenger not entitled.
5. Knowingly travelling with incorrect/expired passport/visa and deliberately attempting to avoid detection.

etc. etc.

Another factor is that, on busy flights, at Flight Closure, Standby Passengers are on-loaded. It may be, therefore, that when you arrive at the airport after closure time, that there are physically no seats available on the aircraft and I am certain that we're not going to offload someone who has been waiting patiently for onloading, in order to accept someone who can't be bothered to get up in the morning!

The situation with BA has been relaxed a little to allow certain "late runners" at own risk - but ONLY with no baggage and
1. First Class or Club (Business Class) passengers booked and holding bona fide commercial tickets for the appropriate class OR

2. BA Executive Club Permier Card or Gold Card holders (Not any other Frequent Flyer scheme)

3. In any event, ONLY if the check-in agent is 100% certain that the passenger is physically fit and able to reach the Gate by Scheduled Time -40 minutes (Long Haul) or -20 minutes (Short Haul) AND only if the Gate Team and Dispatcher agree acceptance.

(At LGW last summer, we did have a gentleman collapse with a massive coronary thrombosis after trying to run to the gate and, unfortunately, he was dead on arrival later at the East Surrey Hospital. Had we refused him, his family may still be enjoying his company - the Business Meeting could have been rescheduled anyway! )

There are many factors behind our reasons for not accepting late passengers and, let's face it, you, in your capacity as the Business Traveller, have told us until you're blue in the face that punctuality is your main concern!



You're quite right - it works two ways!!!



:cool:

[AOG007]

Bealine,

Could not have put it better myself,

Passengers, get there on time!

These are what I gather to be your primary factors when attempting to reach an Airport on time

1) Your Car works, and you know your way to the airport
2) Your train leaves you with plenty of time for any problems
3) Your taxi is again booked to ensure you arrive in plenty of time
4) Your wife/husband/friend is sure to be able to take you to the airport, and again leaving you with plenty of time to check-in.

The airline has a few more things to worry about, of which have already been mentioned so I shall not bore us all with a repeat.

ItS amazing that with all the traffic congestion around some of the UK's major airports, a large majority of staff are always there ontime. When was the last time you seen a thread on here complaining of consistantly late departures because the Captain/ First Officer / Purser / Crew Member / Engineer / ATC Controller, etc etc.......... was late for work due to some weak excuse. My car broke down, there was an accident on the M25, or the train was cancelled.

If the staff can be there ontime, so should the passengers. Excuses? We've heard them all, and none of them wash. Get there ontime! It that simple. I do! And I have to stand around waiting to be onloaded, but I have not missed a flight yet because I was late. Its not hard.

STOP MAKING EXCUSES, AND GET YOUR SHIP IN ORDER.

RANT ENDS!

[FlapsOne]

DR

We cannot legitimately cal 'ready' if the airbridge is still attached to the aircraft.

At AMS for eg. you must pushback within 2 mins of clearance or that clearance WILL BE CANCELLED. Hard rules, I know but it's fact.

Tell us how to get round these problems if you have an answer but please don't just say it should be a 2-way street when, from our side, it's often a one-way cul-e-sac.

WE WANT TO HELP BUT OFTEN WE CANNOT!!!!

[DistantRumble]

"When was the last time you seen a thread on here complaining of consistantly late departures because the Captain/ First Officer / Purser / Crew Member / Engineer / ATC Controller, etc etc.......... was late for work due to some weak excuse. My car broke down, there was an accident on the M25, or the train was cancelled" - Agreed.

Or the inbound flight was late ? -> ?? Several threads about that ...

I've missed one flight due to lateness in 27 years.
DUB-LBA (27 minutes late at checkin) and Aer Lingus were kind enough to rebook me to Newcastle (their next flight out to N. England) and I drove down to Leeds and made my meeting.

NOTE : I AM NOT GETTING AT FLIGHT CREW. These are system-wide complaints. The later you are the later you get off work or alternatively you're stuck away from home base out of duty hours ->> you have an interest in being on time too

BeaLines comments are interesting.. especially the comments about ticketing and HAG restrictions (a bit elitist maybe ? )


Anyway gang - One thing I want to make clear to everyone.
Lack of information is the worst offence of all.

I get annoyed because I don't know a lot of the stuff Pilots and controllers know. In addition we also know that it is easy for ground staff to give 'get-rid-of-you-quick' reasons for delays that refer to things you cannot check. Therefore you are an angry mushroom (kept in the dark and fed BS).

By far the best thing I ever saw to counteract this was on UA longhaul who allow you to listen to the pilot's RT on your headphones.

E.g. sitting at KDEN in a 777 ->SFO waiting for 45 mins. I knew exactly why because I'd listened to the RT .

Thanks for the info. from AMS. No one ever told me that.

I suppose this IS why this forum is called SLF

The thread's getting plenty of views. Hope it's arousing some interest.

[bealine]

Hi Distant Rumble

I heartily agree with you about getting frustrated at not being told the truth about delays.

However, on a light hearted note, the following exchange took place at Laker Airways:

Passenger (for 6th or 7th time) "Look - can you tell me EXACTLY what's wrong with the aircraft?"

Check In Agent (confidentially) " Okay, but I don't want everyone to hear. Come closer!"

Check In Agent whispers "Between you and me, the engineers think it's one of the BRT's!"

Passenger (knowingly) "Ahah! I thought it might be!"

2nd Check In Agent "What the hell's a BRT?"

Check In Agent " Oh that! BRT - Big Round Thing - you know, the Engine!!!"


:D

[ohitsmonday]

I thought civil aviation was a service industry. Remember pax pay all our wages.
I quite agree that late pax at c/in (or any for that matter) should not delay flights, but at MOST UK airports you can get from c/in to the gate in just a few minutes (queues at security at peak times aside).
The process is simple
Check with gate/dispatcher as to feasability of pax arriving at gate before a/c closure (at -30 mins most flights haven't started or have only just started boarding)
Pax given a hand written boarding card with all normal p/port, visa checks and security questions asked - not c/in to system
Tell pax to get to the gate as quickly as possible adding that they are on a 'have a go basis' and that under no circumstances will the aircraft be delayed
Pax run to gate and still have to pass through the normal security point.
If they arrive in time to be boarded, great. Dispatcher adds pax in LMC box on loadsheet (thats one of the reasons the LMC box is there) and amends zfm/tom etc.
Once pax on aircraft then they can be checked in to system.
If they don't make it tough, but most pax will see at least they were given the chance.

Result - pax happy, no headache for ticket desk staff in re-routing pax and no breach of security. Whats the problem?

[You splitter]

Ohitsmonday. Couldn't agree more. Although it is not always appropriate in every circumstance. Never delay the flight. After all 180 other passengers did make it on time so why should they suffer.

However every situation is differant and part of being a good operator is about good customer practice after first ensuring a good safety practice. A certain amount of flexibility is required to achieve that. The check in staff should liase with the dispatcher and the Captain and sometimes HAG would be an option. As said above that s what the LMC box is for!

However by far the best way to ensure you make the flight is to be there on time!

Any way enough of this I've just realised Im on an EZY flight to ABZ this afternoon. Best make tracks.....

;)

[jumpseater]

Theres another thing about slots that SLF and people who want to late board dont realise. Once issued they can improve to an on time departure. You may well get on the plane and then be told sorry 40 min delay due to slot, however, in the background ops ATC people are looking at re-routes and potentially filing a different route to the same destination or at a lower/higher flight level. This then clears the slot and bingo away on time, immediate start and push. Now if we've let Mr Cackwatch start running to the gate, we can't go, we might then get another slot on the new route whilst waiting, and the whole procedure starts again.
A slot is a capacity constraint on a block of airspace, if you miss it someone else gets it, (don't even bother to ask for it back), and you go to the back of the queue for the slot, regardless of the importance of your flight or destination, or length of the queue. Say you're evening flight is running late to Zurich (which closes at night, due to an absolute night curfew). If you wait for Mr Cackwatch your flight might not even depart because your destination isn't even open when you get there! Still want to wait for him? We are a service industry, but do we provide the service for 179 on time pax, or 1 late one?

[Who has control?]

Perhaps if some of the points listed in the previous post were actually aired on programmes such a Airline, then maybe the pax might be more inclined to check in on time and get to the gate on time too.

[timzsta]

As I may have explained in my earlier posts on this subject, LMC's are no longer allowed by most airlines. The reason is several of those involved in the Sep 11 attacks got onboard as LMC's. Because an LMC has to be processed quickly security checks on these passengers cannot be done as thoroughly as would be liked. To make the industry a safer place for everyone LMC and "have a go" are a thing of the past.

Once again, get to check in on time, thousands manage it each day.

[Land After]

Because an LMC has to be processed quickly security checks on these passengers cannot be done as thoroughly as would be liked.

Why not? If you can't do the security, don't do the change.

If you can do the security, why not do the change?

Sometimes sh*t happens and with the best will in the world, you're late. Sometimes, would you believe it, a connecting flight of the same airline arrives late and you have to run.

As people have already said, this is a service industry and give and take goes both ways. SLF do remember good service and will take their business to where they get it.

This does not mean I'm looking for carte blanche to turn up late for every flight and demand to get on, threatening to take my important business elsewhere, after calling my friend the CEO about the appalling treatment.

Let's just have a little common sense for the times when something has gone wrong.

[ohitsmonday]

LA
Commonsense.......You have read the comments on this thread. Sad isn't it.

Tim....
Have you read what I said? ALL NORMAL SECURITY PROCEDURES ARE FOLLOWED.
I hope you don't work for an HA that handles the airline I work for

[timzsta]

I think you may have misunderstood me Monday. LMC's are no longer done at the Airline I work for because of the reasons I explained (Sep 11). Previously they were allowed so that the passenger who for whatever was late had one last chance to possibly make it onboard.

However the decision was made that the risk obviously outweighed the benefit. We have made things safer but at the expense of customer service. I hope passengers believe that safety should be of the utmost importance, and come before anything else.

[CainanUK]

As a dispatcher (load controller) working out of one of those little grotty rooms tucked away under some building I can tell you this...

Don't cut it so close. Give youself plenty of time and take any delays in getting to the airport under consideration. We have schedules that we have to keep. A plane simply cannot be held until you get there, whether the tardiness is your fault or not.

I have never understood why some people think they can turn up at the check in counter at -30 and think they can still get on the plane. You, the passenger, need to take some personal responsibility and get to the airport on time. I do believe the industry standard is to tell passengers to be at the airport two hours prior to departure. When you are late you take your chances. You have to get checked in (about 7 minutes per pax). You then have to clear security and passport control (another 10 minutes on average at MAN). You then have to find your gate and get on the plane. We may have standby passengers whe WERE there ON TIME and decided to let them have your seat. As I work for a handling agent as do most ground workers in the UK, I am going to do my best to keep my planes on time. Simply put, if my planes are constantly late, the airline will give their contract to another handling agent and BINGO, I am out of a job simple as that!

Never mind the fact that we close all doors at -5 to departure and have tons of paperwork that has to be prepared and signed off before each flight. Baggage has to be taken to the aircraft and loaded. Passengers have to be boarded. We have to take care of any last minute details and special requests from the cockpit and flight crew.

My point is this. It is just not as simple as you turning up and getting on the plane. There is a ton of other things that happen to make sure you get to where you are going and to do it on time. And for the record, I have NEVER asked a captain if he will take pax at the last minute. That is my call, not the captains. In fact if I ever did ask that, I would probably be laughed out of the cockpit. So that one was a line of bull my friend!

[christep]

Outbound passport control at MAN?

Really?:confused:

[AOG007]

CainanUK,

Well said. I am feeling that many of the people posting comments/remarks on this subject may be somewhat challenged in their knowledge of Airport Operations.

I appreciate a passengers view, we were all once them! But we know better now. I still turn up hours in advance, and ensure that should I have car trouble, tube trouble, coach trouble, connecting flight trouble or what ever excuse they come up with, I will always arrive for my listed flight.

Now I work in aviation, most of these passengers probably think that I can get special treatment because I staff. How wrong, I am a fare paying passenger. Therefore I will get there on time.

PASSENGERS.......
Please read these forums, and carefully soak up the information. We are not horrible monsters, that go out of our way to make your day a miserable one. We are following a set of proceedures laid down by our employer, and of which are approved by the CAA (Civil aviation Authority).
Security has become an even bigger issue due to last year, so please use your noddle!
All these bits and bobs, are there for your safety, as well as trying to get the aircraft away on time. Where flexibility can be exercised, it will be. but that is down the individual whom is the controlling person, and also with the circumstances of that perticular day.

If you are told "Sorry you are to late", don't stand there arguing, having a paddy or crying. I always look at it as the play acting part of the story. A genuine person who has missed, will be sussed out by the ground staff (they see it every day remember), and they will be helped much more, than if they were to go into performance mode!

Just get there on time! Its easy isn't it? 99% of passengers make it on time, so don't be the 1%!

[Little Chief]

I've been reading this thread with great interest, and am quite surprised at how many replies it has provoked. I felt now was a good time to respond to my original post.

Firstly, just to clarify a few of points about how I felt (and still feel) when first starting this thread:
1) I was in no way suggesting that a plane should be delayed because of late passengers (this is totally unfair to everyone else!).
2) Security and safety must obviously be the number one priority for the airline and operations staff (I assume all passengers would appreciate this - after all its them that will suffer).
3) If you turn up late to a busy flight, then you must expect passengers on standy to have been given your seat.

Now, it seems that a lot of complaints are from the perceptions held by passengers as to what can and can't be done. Maybe all those who have read this thread are now more aware.

However, I sense there is also a lot of frustration caused by inconsistencies for different flights, poor explanations by ground staff and general in-efficiencies at check-in (hope this doesn't sound like to like a whinge directed an anyone inparticular).

Sure, you can turn up at the industry standard 2/3 hrs before check in. But most occasions when I have done this, either the check in desks aren't open yet, or the lack of open desks mean the queue is so long that you end up waiting in in the queue for 1.5 hrs anyway.

Then, it is unclear to the passenger why some airlines can rush you on within 15 minutes of departure, whilst others won't let you check in 30 minutes before. Maybe there has been too much flexibility in the past, or maybe some companies are just more efficient than others, or have invested more money in automating procedures? Why not have some consistency in the industry so we all know what to expect.

A general question - Why does it take so long for some people to check-in? I normally take about a minute - so why do I always seem to be stuck behind someone who takes 15. If there appears to be a problem, can't they just be put aside and dealt with by someone else so avoiding the frustration for other passengers (back to being fair again).

And a final question - why close check-in 30 minutes prior to departure (as opposed to 30 minutes before some other instance with the premise that this could be as early as 30 minutes prior to departure)? After all how often does a plane leave its stand and depart on-time. Yes I appreciate that departure is the allocated slot, it is the only definite time to begin with, and the airline has to be prepared to work around it dependant on how busy the airport is, etc, etc. But then when can the flight "officially" be said to be delayed allowing "late" passengers to make their flight (subject to room 1-3 above)? If these kind of criteria were made clear then passengers could have no argument.

No doubt, passengers will always moan - thats goes with the territory! But at least the airlines/handling agents could try and give us less reasons for doing so, however complicated an operation it is.

A quick thanks for all the information provided by operations staff and passengers alike. I've certainly learnt/am learning a lot!

[DistantRumble]

Very interesting listening to everyone ...


Flexibility ... the nature and economics of the business makes it difficult

As a person whose connection with the industry is IT CRM I tend to see more of the front-end of this.


I appreciate that if I want true flexibility then I can rent a Lear and that's what you pay for.


I also appreciate some of you work in overheated Portacabins and have a job to do.

But the service is not sold in this fashion... unless you bother to read the tariff rules and what exactly you are entitled to.

Only MOL's crowd are TRULY up-front about this. i.e. we couldn't give a stuff.


PS Do any European air carriers practice the parking brake trick to fake the on-time departures ? Or is it strictly a US thing ?

[timzsta]

The following events happened when I was working in departures at Stansted this week. It is an excellent example of why airlines like to close check in at the designated time, every time.

1405: Arrive at gate to meet inbound flight from France, to depart to another destination in France at 1500. Complete paperwork etc etc. Note from computer ETA of aircraft now 1435, departure slot at 1510. With a bit of hard work we should be able to achieve this as standard turnaround in 35 minutes (note though that the aircraft needs to be ready for take off at 1510, not pushing back at 1510).

1420 Inbound aircraft scheduled to arrive (departing flight 1500).
1425 ATC advise new slot at 1540
1430 Check in closed. 93 pax for flight, 5 no shows.
1435 Inbound aircraft arrives. Disembark pax, fuelling, catering, cleaning etc.
1445 ATC advise original slot of 1510 now reinstated.
1455 Commence boarding
1505 Boarding complete.
1507 Pushback, short taxi to runway 23 from stand 34R
1510 Aircraft takes off.

Aircraft arrives back at Stansted on time later that day having made up 5 mins on each sector.

So lets just suppose that when we were advised of the new slot at 1540 we had decided to leave check in open until 1510 to allow the last passengers extra time. We may never have seen those last 5 passengers and would have delayed the other 93 unnecessarily. And the passengers for the return flight and all passengers on flights operated by that aircraft for the rest of the day.

Things can change so quickly and so often as seen here that often attempting to show flexibility to a limited number of people who cant make it to the airport on time, can resulting in spoiling the day for several hundred more.

So once again, get to check in on time.

[brockenspectre]

First, as has been said elsewhere, have you ever heard of "XYZ airlines apologises for the late departure of Flight 123 for Wherever because the flight and cabin crew were delayed by train/car/other delays" ...

Second, why do airline pax believe that they can rant/rave at checkin staff because they (the staff) are applying the relevant rules which have been made abundantly clear to said pax on tickets and itinerary. Do these same pax complain to platform staff when a rail train departs on time without them? when a buse leaves a depot without them? why are airlines considered different?

As a commercial passenger I know my checkin time...I know my flight # and time .. I subscribe to BAA updates on my cellphone .. I arrive at the airport with ample time for checkin (the one time I didn't, although an Economy pax, the BA biz checkin accepted my checkin as I had a carryon bag and I ran to the gate with time in hand) ...

Conclusion? because for holiday pax (the subject of the majority of these airport docudrama programs) save all year for their vacation, the airport and flight are a "big deal" and they assume that this importance is attributed by all to what is happening to them. Unfortunately, no one has yet to advise them that this is not the case .. hence..the tantrums at the airport when all does not go according to their plan!

[Pegasus77]

Parking brake trick? I guess I know what you are referring to, but the airplane will not be at its destination earlier...
Besides... formally the parking brake has nothing to do with blocktimes.

P77

[payingpax]

“First, as has been said elsewhere, have you ever heard of "XYZ airlines apologises for the late departure of Flight 123 for Wherever because the flight and cabin crew were delayed by train/car/other delays"

Err, Yes.

Flight back from Budapest, over an hours delay waiting to get on the plane, then over an hours delay sat on the plane waiting for a new take off slot.

The reason. There was a meeting of senior NATO officials in town that day, and as a security measure large sections of the motorway system were closed down. Result traffic chaos, result the crew were delayed getting to the airport from their hotel.

Now this has only ever happened to me once, and I am sure that this sort of thing is very very rare. But it does go to show that being late can happen to even the best of us.

[Lurk R]

I know passengers who turn up at last minute may feel harshly treated by having boarding denied but have also experienced waiting in a fully laden 747 at SIN whilst a lady was running to get on board at last minute. Suffice to say all the surrounding passengers were extremely annoyed when the captain came on the PA and avised that due to the late passenger we had lost our slot and would be delayed another 90 mins. After a long trip from LHR all I wanted to do was get home to MEL and daresay the other passengers echoed similar sentiments. The airline would have been better off having 1 unhappy customer rather than 400.

[Little Chief]

I was flying from London to San Francisco last November changing at Chicago. On the second leg of the flight, we were delayed in the departure lounge for an hour. The explanation... the pilot has not turned up so we are having to find another! Maybe this is just the US way of doing things, but nevertheless, it just shows that it can and does happen.