BA recruitment

[B clam]

Spoke to a senior Flt Ops Manager today. He said recruitment will have to be undertaken in order to fly the future program. This is especially the case now the Company are maintaining 57 744 hulls vice 53.

Rumour or News, whatever you like.:)

[N380UA]

Well....

[Hood]

Can anyone confirm...
One can not apply to Brymon or Bral, City Flyer as all hiring for these regional bases are undertaken by BA with all interviews etc done at Cranebank.

[exeng]

Big K. Burger,

Any more details on the lack of pension provision for new joiners please? A more specific source would be very useful.

My understanding was that all new joiners must be a part of, and pay for 'NAPS 2'.

It would surprise me if this had changed for DEP's etc., as without this it would be very difficult for BA to recruit anybody at all.


Regards
Exeng

[Hand Solo]

So lets get this right. Join BA and:

1. Start on a lower salary than you would at EasyJet, Go or Ryanair.

2. Then stay on that salary for five or so years.

3. Then wait at least another two years for a command, when you could have been left hand seat in Easy four years ago.

4. Whilst in the meantime that salary in point 1 is reduced in real terms by constant attacks on pilots terms and conditions.

5. Plus you have to move to the South East and find a home in the most overheated housing market in the nation.

6. Then find some spare cash to pay into a pension because the final salary scheme is gone.

Doesn't sound very attractive, does it? In fact you'd better hope that the worry doesn't make you sick because if you can't fly you don't get allowances, which means you can't afford to pay the mortgage. Mind you, its all you deserve because pilots are lazy and overpaid, and even if you're logging 900hrs per year its not enough and you must work harder. That must be true because it practically says so in the company newspaper every fortnight.

Oh, did I mention you'll spend your working day locked behind a metal door with no human contact and you'll have to request a babysitter from the cabin crew come up if you need to go for a leak in flight.

[Sick]

It's really very sad to see how what was once the gold standard of pilot employment has totally gone to the dogs, and how this is symptomatic of the conditions of the profession as a whole.

The few remaining companies of merit, (in my book, Monarch, Emirates, and some others outside Europe) put BA totally in the shade, as does my company, but I like to keep that to myself as too many applications would make the management think we're on to too much of a good thing!

[trapped off]

you guys think you got it bad? try engineering!!

[overstress]

I didn't think we were talking about engineering, trapped, go and find another topic to whinge about that - we're slagging off BA pilot T's & C's here!

Hand Solo - as ever you have hit the nail squarely on the head.

For non-BA people: hand solo is a genuine BA pilot and his posting above accurately summarises the employment situation in BA.

[trapped off]

not sure about overstress-think meltdown might be better!

[knows]

Big Kahuna Burger - absolutely true!
I pointed it out here a while ago - but no one believed me then!

Hand Solo - and Dontdoit - I concur with your observations.

[Shadowpurser]

Company caring more about the crew? Not sure about that one!

Where is your union while all this is going on!!!? If I was paying as much as you guys do I'd want to see some action. I thought BALPA was pretty strong? Or is that just was it says in it's newsletters?

[Son Of Piltdown]

>>The few remaining companies of merit, (in my book, Monarch, Emirates, and some others outside Europe) put BA totally in the shade<<

Sick, I quite agree with you. Ultimately it is the pilot body who have let this happen. Collectively we have allowed airline management to regard us as a cost. Of course, our job demands more respect these days than it ever did.

It is not a career that you can now recommend to a young person. Good for life experience and then move on to something sensible.

[Wet Power]

I originally applied for DEP at BA in 1988 and didn't get through the final hurdle - I was extremely disappointed.

Due to a big change in company circumstances I applied again last year for BA and, I believe, failed the interview. Everything else went as well as, or better than, I could expect.

Apart from the initial disappointment at not being selected I have not lost any sleep over it since.

The interviewers were dreadful and inexperienced.
"Have you handed your notice in to your present employer yet?"
"Er, no, on the grounds I haven't passed this stage and the sim ride yet!"

The youngish 73 Captain from the regions who was doing the other interviews was also a gold medal winner in sarcasm and being patronising while checking our logbooks with me and a couple of RAF applicants.

I have many very able friends in BA but their selection procedures (or more importantly some of the people involved) are way off the mark.

Happy where I am.

[Jet II]

C'mon guys - everybodys being shafted at BA at the moment, not just the Flight Crew. The Flight Crew are part of the same struggling, badly managed airline as every other employee, you just have to hang on in there and hope that it will get better someday.

Seems like the ones winging on this forum are the same ones who didn't want to give up their cheese board.

:D

[Shadowpurser]

Cheeseboard sucked anyway!! F.D. never wanted it (apart from those who took it home!!!!) and crew ended up giving to veg pax who had no meal loaded!!! What happened to the jacket potatoes? No-one complained when they went.:eek:

[Hand Solo]

Never had a cheese board jet II, but did see one once and I certainly wouldn't spend my money on it! We are well aware that a lot of people are being shafted at BA at the moment, it's all part of managements grand 'pain sharing' exercise. However, very few people have been shafted so consistently over recent years, delivering so much more for the company yet receiving so little recognition for it. Over recent years BA pilots have increased productivity by a large, double-digit percentage. There are few, if any, other areas in BA that have matched this, yet the company actively seeks flight crew as its first target in any cost saving round. In longhaul so many crew are now in danger of exceeding the 900hrs/year limit that the company has approached the CAA for an alleviation to the rules, falsely claiming that we support it.

A few of managers thanks us in our departmental newletter for our hardwork, commitment and professionalism, yet each week they demand further concessions and the company newspaper carries a thinly-veiled attack on pilots in its letters page. This morning I received a mailshot from a very senior manager explaining that a certain low cost carrier was outperforming us because they paid their pilots less (which is untrue), a clear implication that once again its all our fault and not the fault of the tens of thousands of middle managers and executives that are notably absent in a low cost airline. This is the kind of company that BA is today. If you think it sounds good, then by all means try your luck and apply. If you prefer to work for a company which values you as a memeber of staff and doesn't seek to stir up resentment against you, then go elsewehere.

[Quidnunc]

Have any of you whinging gits thought you might be part of the morale problem?? You're all so sour. If Easy and Ryan are so great GO THERE! The more of you moaners that leave BA the better it'll be for the rest of us. 'B Calm' - I hope you're right in that new recruitment will happen soon. The more fresh faces the sooner, the better.

[Bigpants]

Quid has ever occured to you that many of the "whingers" had actually joined BA from other commercial companies and therefore have a a very realistic view of commercial aviation both good and bad?

I did, and I can assure you that the previous post was spot on. I joined BA with high hopes and yet from the first day was appalled by the way in which the flightcrew were treated by the management.

Despite years of productivity improvements we have not seen a pay rise in excess of RPI. At the same time house prices have risen 10% or more year on year. In short we work hard and have suffered cuts in pay for our efforts.

I strongly suspect from the tone of your post that you are perhaps one of the management and to answer your last point....at least a couple of pilots have left BA at BHX and others are considering their options.

BA sucks but don't take my word for it come on in and get shafted along with the rest of us!

[Chilli Ray]

Is there any chance that some of you might actually know anything concerning BA recruitment. Sitting here having been made redundant with precious little on the horizon i would be more than grateful to have your jobs, so would my other half, the kids, bank mgr etc etc.....Being shafted and employed is one thing being shafted and losing your job for no good reason is another.

[overstress]

Hand Solo

Once again your posting lays an accurate blow on target

<a mailshot from a very senior manager explaining that a certain low cost carrier was outperforming us because they paid their pilots less >

I sat reading that missive over my cornflakes and couldn't believe what I saw.

Do you reckon that our Lord Protector believes the carp he writes, in which case God help him, or does he think that we'll believe what he writes, in which case God help us!!!

I don't recall my peers at Easy, Go etc being paid less than me. What on earth is he on about?

[snooky]

Quidnunc, many of us would love to go and work for the likes of Easy or Go, maybe not Ryanair, but find ourselves trapped by the financial consequenses in terms of pension in particular.

All we can really do is hope that in the long term there will be a change of management and that we will be appreciated as the hard working and productive pilots that we are and not treated as an unfortunate expense.

At the moment BA management's incompetence is wasting all the productivity that we give them, and their sole concern seems to be to give our work to others in the form of franchises or subsiduaries. BAs one advantage over the competition is size, and by splitting their operation up into lots of smaller operations they give up this advantage.

BA management should look at how successful airlines run and try and emulate them. Unfortunately most BA management think that they are never wrong, and certainly will never admit it when they are.

I think that it is important for potential recruits to be warned what they are in for in terms of mismanagement.

[411A]

....ie: the gravy train has past the station and run off the tracks.
BA is woefully behind the times...and will never catch up...not in our lifetimes anyway.
Once a GREAT airline....now second fiddle...if that.
And this from a Yanks' perspective...anyone disagree?

[Baron Harkonnen]

Chilliray - try applying to BritishAirways CitiExpress. That's where the future probably lies. Not up to BA Ts and Cs, but then again, you can live in the regions. No huge aircraft, not above the RJ anyway, but the future looks bright.

Quidnunc, Jet 11, you are spot on. 411A, you have a point about the gravy train, but BACE are quite happy with granules thanks.

[Private jet]

Just a few thoughts on this subject.......(This is NOT an antagonistic post, I'm just trying to make a point and provoke some thoughts, so no insults please!)

My father was a flight engineer at BA/BOAC for 25 years (retd back in 87) He logged an average of 470 hours per year, which is only half of what you BA guys are doing now! However, his earnings in real terms were about half yours, due to the fact that for many years he was in the 80% income tax bracket, with sky high uncapped national insurance contributions. So, you see, its all relative. Yes its true that property was cheaper, but interest rates were also a lot higher, so mortgages were not as cheap as you think back then!

Son of Piltdown- quote "our job demands more respect these days than it ever did".....would you still say that if you were flying an underpowered, manually controlled, unreliable, low automation Boeing 707, into airfields with few basic navaids...? on three week trips, multi sector days with no flight time limitation regs?

I worked at BA as a maintenance engineer for several years, I was not happy there so I left to pursue a piloting career. If you are unhappy there then do something about it, or go elsewhere. If not, then please stop posting your angst here and just get on with your life, doing the best you can like the rest of us!... Its very sad to see BA pilots, who are still in a good position relative to many others, whinging about T's & C's. Okay, so the "golden years" of the 80's and 90's have gone, but virtually every airline is having to cut back now. Personally, as long as I can earn enough to have an "average" standard of living I am happy as a pilot. There are still multiple rewards in terms of kudos and personal satisfaction that are nothing to do with salary, pension etc....

[Jet II]

Private jet

Excellent post - spot on in every respect, its a pity we don't have more 'Nigels' at BA with your attitude.

;)

[overstress]

Private jet - stand by for flaming!

<I was not happy there so I left to pursue a piloting career. If you are unhappy there then do something about it, or go elsewhere. If not, then please stop posting your angst here and just get on with your life, doing the best you can like the rest of us!... >

This is a discussion forum, the topic is relevant to the forum and the thread contains valid contributions from active participants and employees of the companies in question.

You begin by posting your credentials, however you will find that any of us can post what we like on here, within reason. If you don't care for the subject matter you read, then in your words, go somewhere else and get on with your life.

BA pilots are perfectly entitled to whinge about T's & C's, just as you are to spout irrelevant drivel!

BA used to lead the field in pilot t&c. This is no longer the case. If you find our 'whinging' sad, then you are perhaps too sensitive.

PS Roll on the return of the airline forums where we can discuss stuff in peace without uninformed and bigoted commentators butting in!

[ETOPS]

Overstress et al

Relief is at hand - Mike has the BA Forum up and running. See you there tomorrow........

[Son Of Piltdown]

Private jet:-

>>would you still say that if you were flying an underpowered, manually controlled, unreliable, low automation Boeing 707, into airfields with few basic navaids...? on three week trips, multi sector days with no flight time limitation regs? <<

I believe the job is more demanding because the issues are more complicated these days. If our sole concern was safety then things would be relatively straightforward. As it is we contend with blame, employment concerns, career instability, management pressures, timekeeping and (very sadly) political correctness.

I have nothing but respect for earlier aviators; I do wonder though if life was a tad simpler for them.

SOP

[Slickster]

You hit the nail squarely on the head, SOP. Is the job harder or easier today? Who knows? All we do Know is that it is different. Sure we have v. sophisticated autopilots, but need them half the time due to the sheer density of traffic in the TMA. More today it is about being a competent manager of ones crew and the people on the ground (I've seen people do it well, and badly ,and the difference is amazing).
The trouble is these days, one works twice as hard as the 707 pilot, in terms of hrs, has more to worry about in terms of managing the people, and still has to have the capability to do that NDB approach in grotty weather into a grotty airfield.
Different, but not easier;)

[noblues]

Also as a DEP you will be treated by many Capt's and cabin crew as a young cadet with 200 hours ....

Joining with 5000+ hours doesn't even give you a 3rd stripe, you start at the bottom and clam your way up ..........

Anyone joining now in their 30's will never see a long haul command on the current seniority predictions ..... and will always be 'juniour trash' as a Capt. in the company ....
has huge implications to your roster and lifestyle ....

If its true that they have taken away the golden nugget of the final salary pension (paid at 55) .... well, thats the nail in the coffin ....

I wish a few years ago I had though a lot more carefully before jumping ship ......

Nigel !

[Wet Power]

Some people tend to forget that although the BA allowances are pretty good and produce a fairly reasonable end of month pay packet the actual amount that is contributed to your pension (company and personal contribution) is based on your basic salary - and BA basic salary is pretty poor and below market rates for anybody who has joined in the past few years.

[Hand Solo]

Plus if you are unfortunate enough to be taken ill you can kiss your allowances goodbye until you recover. Similar story if you undergo a conversion course, or take leave, or get a bad months roster.

[DAVROS]

So then the $million question. Which company is the best to work for. So some of you think EasyJ. The only problem there is that once you reach command with extras (TRI ETC.) you still won't earn aything near a BA 744 captain????
Thoughts??

[Peter Skellan]

DAVROS - an easyJet Captain who is a line trainer and TRI would make a gross salary of around £81,000. Lucrative share options would also apply.

I agree a LH skipper at the top 5 pay points would make more. However, he probably spent 10 - 12 years in the RHS to get a LH command. His easyJet counter part maybe 4 years. Put the pay difference in a PEP/ISA/ for a decade and you will build up a powerful little investment portfolio useable for AVC's or whatever.

The low cost chappy probably didn't have to fund a mortgage in the SE England and its associated council taxes and general cost of living.

In fact a GO Fly Skipper based in - say - Glasgow who joined as an F/O and went to the LHS in year 4 would be much better off over an entire career than someone joining BA at EGLL and getting all the way to LHS Widebody. Bigger house, lower living costs, home every night, high morale.

Lets face it BA pays a hell of a lot less than AA, Delta, United for the same job. Ignoring remuneration the company does not appear a fun one to work for with pilots vs cabin crew vs management vs unions.

There are plenty of Ryanair Captains at EGSS earning 6 figures. 5 on 3 off and the most profitable airline in Europe. Who would want EOG over that?

PS

[Jet II]

Peter Skellan

BA pays a hell of a lot less than AA, Delta, United

This has come up in these forums before and I am still confused as to why BA pilots believe that their pay should be of a comparable nature to someone who works on the other side of the world.

The only comparisons that matter are with pilots in the UK doing the same job (Virgin, Easy, Go, BMI etc). Every person in any walk of life can cast around the world and find someone who does the same job as them and gets paid more, but to use that as a case for getting a pay rise is ridiculous.

:confused:

[Hand Solo]

That comparision usually comes up when the BA propaganda machine starts labelling pilots as expensive whingers who are only concerned about their cheeseboard. If you want to look closer to home you'd find the BA package on long haul was also considerably less than in KLM, Air France and Lufthansa. The comparison is drawn because BA long haul is competing in a global market, not a domestic one, so its no use complaining your people are too expensive when your competitors people are even more so. BA pilots dont expect to earn the astonishing amounts some of the Americans do, but they do expect to earn comparable rates to our European competitors (who incidentally fly fewer hours and have more days off than us).

In terms of short haul, the BA package must currently be one of the least attractive of any large airline in Europe. I really don't see why anyone would want to live in London on a basic of £32K and wait 7 years for a command when you could earn much more much sooner in an affordable location with any of the low costs.

[Jet II]

Hand solo - if the BA pay and conditions are so bad, why is there no shortage of applicants for crew positions. Even before Sept 11th, when there was much more choice of employers who were recruiting, BA always had plenty of new applicants for crew positions.

It seems that there are many more pilots than positions available and the law of supply and demand will ensure that T & C's for the entire industry (not just BA) will never be as good as they once were.

:(

[Super Stall]

When things pick up for BA, there WILL have to be a re-rating of BA's salary scales. Anybody who rejects the company now may be left wishing they had taken a longer term view.

I feel that day may be sooner rather than later.

[Land ASAP]

If you join now and you are over the age of 35 you will never get a command. The demographics just won't work for you. Essentially there are nearly 2000 pilots under 35 in the airline already. There are 3600 positions. As an American would say...."You do the maths".


Sorry!

[Hand Solo]

Jet II - there was no shortage of applicants prior to September 11th, but there was a serious shortage of good applicants. In the past BA had a flood of applications from experienced jet pilots with many hours, all keen to move on to better things. That flood had become a trickle and the vast majority of applications were from low hours pilots with little if any jet time. Things might pick up a bit with redundancies post-Sept 11th, but as people have already said, why would you join BA why you can earn better money elsewhere, live where you want and be part of a rapidly growing company with all the opportunites that presents?

[basil fawlty]

Hand Solo,
Your posts beggar belief.
Just exactly why do you consider that you are worth more than the salary you are receiving now?? There is no such thing as "a pilot does this, so he is worth that" Sorry to pi*s on your parade but the piloting profession works in the same way as every other industry; i.e supply and demand. OK, so you can fly a plane, but then so can thousands of others, many unemployed, and ready to step into your shoes old boy. If you are not happy with your lot, then pi*s off and go do something else, probably for a quarter of the salary you are presently receiving. There really is some sort of infection that turns many (but not all) BA pilots into pompous, arrogant, selfish prats these days. Crews in other carriers get on with their lives and are thankful for the opportunities presented to them, but not in BA, oh no! Grow up little boy, the world in general, and the aviation world in particular, is a harsh place, and you are in a very fortunate position compared to many, but you are either too stupid to realise that fact, or too arrogant to care. AA, Delta, KLM etc get more....so go and get a job there then, but then you can't can you? so that argument is totally and utterly irrelevent. Go out and do something, instead of all this whinge, whinge, whinge we seem to get on these forums these days. Don't bother to reply. I'm sick of your self righteous bull*hit.

[Hand Solo]

Wow you really have got a chip on your shoulder Basil! This may spoil your rant Basil but the pilot industry does not work like every other industry, unless every other industry works on 'wait in turn' seniority. I can't think of any others, can you? Supply and demand doesn't work when its skewed by the golden handcuffs of seniority. Why shouldn't I think I'm worth more than my salary now? If Easyjet are paying more for people with the same qualifications and experience to do the same work as me is it because they are feeling particularly benevolent towards the pilot community, or because thats what they think the market rate is? There may be thousands of others waiting to step into my shoes and do my job for less, but they can't because we have a union and laws to prevent that, just like I can't go do the same to KLM or Lufthansa pilots, so your argument is totally and utterly irrelevant. If I wasn't happy I would **** off and do something else, probably my previous profession, especially as I now earn a quarter of what my former colleagues do. The world is a very harsh place, I enjoy what I do and I worked hard to get it, so I'm not going to let some embittered old whinger like you tell me I should earn less. As for pompous and arrogant, well you really should go back and read your own post.

[Tucano]

I'd like to add a measured response to this thread, which is largely negative, but I'm sure it won't ring true with all that read it. However, here goes...

I like British Airways, they are MY favourite airline and I choose to fly with them over the low-costs because experience has shown me that they offer a great service. It might not be to everybody's liking, but on a planet with 5 billion people we have 5 billion different opinions and 5 billion different personalities so I don't think we'll ever find something that EVERYBODY likes. This might be a passenger perspective but I honestly believe the same principle applies behind the scenes in the airline, if not all the airlines.

This thread is full of arguments, slander and cutting remarks and I think it's a shame that BA gets such an enormous bashing from all angles on this forum. Why do people seem to think that BA needs to be accused of this and that and HAVE to do this and that.... with an enormous workforce the company will NEVER keep everybody happy. FACT. Tell me a company where everybody is happy and would not change a thing?

It seems odd to me that some pilots can come on this forum and tell us all how awful they think the company is.. but will still gladly accept the paycheck at the end of the month. The company is far from perfect but they are still offering good, exciting jobs. If you personally feel the situation is terrible, get up tomorrow, sit down at the computer and type your resignation letter. Hand it in after your day's work, fulfill your contractually obliged number of flights and then enter the wild job market of today which is horribly saturated not only with eager young low-hours pilots, but also highly experienced guys and girls who have sadly been laid off from other carriers (GOOD LUCK to all you guys looking for jobs right now!)

Someone said on this thread that they couldn't go to a low-cost carrier because of the pension they would be leaving behind.. what kind of an 'excuse' is that? That argument says that it's all about money, but that's not what life is about. If people want more money, then why not go and work for another carrier who offers higher salaries in the short-term? If money is all that is important then why not quit flying and go into IT or fund managing? They pay well, and you wouldn't have to put up with 'poor rostering' etc.

BA offers a unique kind of career to men and women from all over the world. For pilots you can join and fly modern jets from the A319 to the 777, fly all over the world AND be paid to do it. Does the thrill of the job really not shine through for some people anymore? If not, just go (no pun intended).

Salaries around the world will vary, that's life. Doctors in the UK and the USA get paid vastly different salaries, but the US system is very different to ours. Oh, and that reminds me.. is the USA's road to entering a major international airline not considerably more onerous than that in the UK? It is for some... couple of thousand hours before a regional will look at you, couple more before you get a sniff of a major? Arguing that British pilots should get paid the same as US guys is silly really. British pilots should get paid what the employer wants to pay them, that's how business works. Again, if you don't like it, don't enter the profession.

As for striking.. well this is something that really stirs my emotions. Striking is a terrible thing to do as far as I am concerned. Sure you grab attention for a short while, but THINK about the knock on effects: the passengers you can trouble and inconvenience if a flight is cancelled, the money you could cost the airline and the damage to an airline's reputation that could be caused. If you damage a company's repuation so much that no-one wants to use them anymore that company could cease to exist... and woop, there go your jobs.

Instead of getting angry on these forums why not put pen to paper and write to the relevant people in your company and suggest ways for them to save money, or ways for things to be improved. I am a firm believer that some of the best ideas for company management come from the workers themselves.. not the graduate managers who have degrees in business studies but have never, and do not, work down on the company floor.

You could write and say, Dear Advertising Dept: why don't you launch a nationwide campaign advertising your amazing low fares which start at £63 return between (say) Glasgow and Heathrow. Let people know that they can get exactly where they want to go for almost no money! Or why not invite business people to try the new BA Club World service for half the price of the usual ticket, for a limited time? Or how about asking PR/Media students at university to prepare projects on how to improve profitability on a loss-making route? So many ideas, these not relating to the things you guys need changed in flight ops... why not try it?

British Airways should still be the symbol of national pride it once was. It is in all our interests for the company to carry on and succeed. For me, I will still be able to fly home to my family feeling safe in the hands of some of the best trained pilots and cabin crew in the world. For you, ladies and gentlemen, British Airways will still employ the 3000 fight crew who would otherwise be sending out CVs.. hoping to find a job.

Some food for thought I hope. Replies would be welcome but I'd rather people didn't snipe if there are any inaccuracies. This is just my opinion. Share with me yours?

[Hand Solo]

Well I'm glad you feel that way about BA Tucano. I think you'd find most BA pilots are very proud of the good aspects of the company and work very hard to ensure the company is a success. As you rightly put it, no BA, no job. We are also mostly shareholders so when the company performs badly, it hits us in the pocket too, not to mention concerns about job security.

What gets most BA pilots backs up (apart from the endless BA bashing on this forum) is the fact that within BA the problems are all too often laid at the pilots door because thats easier than dealing with the real problems in the company. We'd like nothing more than to see the inefficiencies stripped out of the company so that we can get on with the business of being a world leading airline, but that creates far too much industrial unrest for the managers comfort. BA needs radical reform, and its a testimony to the efficiency and productivity to the Flight Operations department that so little fat could be found to strip out in the F S &S review. The Flight Ops department has led the way in internal efficiency and cost saving whilst other areas of the company have been profligate in their spending, yet its our door they come knocking on for savings. If other departments are working so hard then why did it take marketing 6 months to decide to offer a seat sale when Ryanair did it in six days? Why has it taken years to point out that we can be as affordable as the low cost airlines? Most people on the front line at BA can tell the company how to make savings and do, but its a drop in the ocean compared to the vast waste of resources which come from some of waterworlds madcap schemes.

The direction this thread has taken is a result of the personal experience of many who have joined BA and found it hasn't lived up to the promise. Why shouldn't they tell other people how BA is? Would you prefer we didn't point out that DEPs will struggle to achieve a command, that morale is low? If you want to join BA for reasons of roster stability or pension or fleet variety, then so be it, but at least people will know what they're getting themselves into and won't be disappointed. Perhaps people should resign if they don't like it? Unfortunately its not as easy as that for those with family commitments who will have to take a significant pay cut in the short term in order to improve their prospects in the long term. There aren't many people who want to leave BA, it has been a great airline in the past and we all hope that it will build on that for the future. The problem is that from where we're sitting we just can't see it improving. Nothing ever seems to be done to stop the rot in the company, and every week we're targeted to sacrifice even more. Money isn't everything, but lifestyle is and people are tired of constantly being the bogeymen in the companies eyes (cue usual anti-BA rantings, you should be grateful, I'm on the dole, xxxx is paid less the usual stuff)

This brings me on to the emotive subject of striking, a word that most BA pilots will grimace on hearing. Nobody wants that, nobody. Those who were involved in the last dispute remember the threatening phone calls from managers, the extreme pressure, the uncertainty and stress. It is not a pleasant experience, nor a course of action to be pursued lightly. But what option is there when all negotiations have failed? The pilot market isn't like the IT market. Before the slowdown you could walk out of a well paid job in the IT industry and straight into another. That can't be done in the flying industry because of seniority rules and incremental pay scales. The day everyone is paid the same regardless of length of service we'll see true mobility of labour, which is exactly what the airlines want to avoid and why we'll never see it. So what do you suggest?

[Slickster]

Non pilots, please stop trying to tell us that "it's the market", and "go and get another job". Unfortunately, the aviation industry works on seniority and incremental pay scales. After a few years in one company, moving to another means a significant pay drop, unlike most people, who leave for a payrise!
Sure eventually the market works it out, but by that time we're in another boom, or maybe another bust, or just to throw a spanner in the works, Bin Liner comes along. Just t'ain't the same as leaving your city desk on Friday for a new one up the road on Monday!:confused:

[Wet Power]

Nice, well thought out, replies.

Well done chaps.

[Jet II]

Tucano

Instead of getting angry on these forums why not put pen to paper and write to the relevant people in your company and suggest ways for them to save money, or ways for things to be improved. I am a firm believer that some of the best ideas for company management come from the workers themselves.. not the graduate managers who have degrees in business studies but have never, and do not, work down on the company floor.

Been there done that, in my exeprience no manager in BA is interested in any ideas from the shop floor unless they agree with his own ideas.

I notice that Britain is now ranked 30th in the world for the competance of its senior managers (International Institute for Management Developement - World Competitiveness Yearbook). BA flying the flag again?

Hand Solo

I can assure you that aircrew in BA are not the only group within BA who are continually put down by the mangement.

It is sad to see that FSS has failed (are we really surprised?) the 'new' management team is just the same old faces in different roles - something about rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic springs to mind.

:mad:

[jetgirl]

Hand Solo

You might be paid less than easyJet but thats because you dont work as hard..................Like to see you guys turn a 737 in 25 minutes four times each duty. I suspect those down the road in GO and Ryanair will be thinking the same.

Someone once said that if the pilots stop moaning about their terms and conditions then the airline really is in trouble so I guess BA is doing OK!

[basil fawlty]

Hand Solo, Slickster,

You really don't get it do you???

You CHOSE to enter an industry with pay, promotion, fleet opportunities etc. predicated on seniority. Let me say that again for the hard of understanding amongst you....it was YOUR CHOICE. Nobody held a gun to your head and said "you must fly for BA" or indeed any other airline at all for that matter. So all these selfish statements about T's & C's not being as lucrative as "Un" Easyjet shows you up for what you are, and your sort is not uncommon in the BA of today. Pity. Personally I earn less than a BA pilot, a lot less after factoring in the difference in flying hours, but that is not important to me, I fly because I get tremendous satisfaction from the job. You may feel the same, but then thats just not enough for you is it?? Why do BA pilots think they should be on the first row of the grid where pay and conditions are concerned? Many good airlines out there employing skilled and experienced crews, as good as BA pilots for sure, but they earn less. Why are you different? You will get what your company pay you, if you are unhappy i will repeat...DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!! If BALPA don't have the motivation or the ability to improve your lot then thats just too bad isn't it? Let me say now that I am a great admirer of BA, they gave me my first break into the airline industry and was there 7 years, and my Dad flew for them for 30 years. I know that there is a chronic overstaffing with managers and paper shufflers in Waterworld (and indeed the Compost centre as well) but why do the pilots not lead by example? Instead you look more and more like arrogant, selfish, self serving grabbers...This is how a lot of others in the company see you, including Engineering, who have suffered very much longer and harder than you ever have. STOP LOOKING AT THE FEW ABOVE YOU, AND START LOOKING AT THE MANY BELOW........get some perspective, for *****sake.

[overstress]

JetGirl

You are barking up the wrong tree. Here in BAR we work plenty hard and are no strangers to split duties, max FDP, discretion and 5-sector days. Your argument does not apply, we work equally as hard as the low-cost, for less.

Basil

Stick to the silly walks - your silly postings make no sense. BA pilots can whinge as much as they like. If you don't accept that, go to another thread! Everything has perspective, you can't fault Hand Solo for having a different view to yourself.

[Hand Solo]

Well at least Basil has finally shown his true colours and brought out his 'engineers earn less than you' line. Well all your arguments apply to them as well Basil. Every now and then someone comes on to this forum and gives us that spiel, so let me remind oyu once again that is is the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. Guests welcome, but if you don't want to discuss pilot things, don't come here. You obviously think most BA pilots (or at least me!) are ignorant, but you are wrong. Contrary to your belief we do 'get it'. You're right, nobody forced a gun to our heads, but if/when we start flexing some industrial muscle for better pay and conditions I bet you'll be the first on here criticising us and accusing us of greed. I'm actually pleased for you that you are in a position where you can do your job for enjoyment alone, it must be very gratifying. The rest of us do it to keep the roof over our heads. Why shouldn't BA pilots expect to be on the first level for pay?

Exactly what example would you like us to lead by? We've already self-financed a redundancy deal for our F/Es, changed rostering rules once again to improve productivity, changed crew rest rules to allow services to continue to a couple of 'hotspots' in the world, introduced new flight planning systems to save millions in fuel costs, reduced and compressed sim checks to save cash, accepted swingeing cuts in Ts & Cs in the regions to pay for new aircraft (theres a novelty, all regional staff fund the companys new aircraft out of own pockets, company takes cash and doesn't produce aircraft), cut crew meals, turned off lifts and escalators to save cash,etc etc. I could go on and on with cost saving initiatives led by flight ops. Or perhaps you mean more touchy-feely lead from the front, being 'senior manager on board' stuff, fostering good CRM with the cabin crew and ground staff, eliminating the stuffy and pompous attitudes of the minority old guard. Do you mean sending all new FOs to different business sections of the company to get an understanding of the operation, or doing the same with new skippers, so that all are better 'on-the-day operations managers' (both initiatives now cancelled of course to save cash), sending pilots to LATCC and LHR tower and bringing ATCOs on famil flights and into the simulators. Tell me, because I really am at a loss to understand, what exactly do you think BA pilots should do before they deserve a raise? (and don't say work harder because a fair chunk of our workforce is finding its roster restricted by CAP371 at the moment). I have absolutely no intention of following you suggestion of 'getting a perspective'. Nobody ever improved their lot by looking down instead of looking up. If the people you consider 'below' me don't like it then they can always have a crack at doing my job. After all, its really easy to get into, and nobodys forcing them to do what they do.

JetGirl- I can't turn a 737 around in 25 mins four times each duty because I don't fly one, and as far as I know Easy and Go guys don't do it either because they only do a max of four sectors in a day. However I can and frequently have turned around an A319 in less than 25 mins four times each duty. The only reason our standard turnaround is 40 mins is because it takes longer to board pax with with preassigned seating, we have to load 126 meals + bars and we have cleaners clean the aircraft properly (yes that means hoovering and under the seat squabs too) instead of getting the cabin crew to have a cursory clean up. If you know of any Easyjet or Go guys who've worked 11 5 sector days in a month in addition to the usual load of 4 sectors with only 10 days off then I'm keen to know how they did it cos our guys were absolutely shagged after that month.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

It is true that BAR work just about as hard as I do in Go. I have a good friend in BAR on the minibus. Our rosters look pretty similar as do our pay cheques. My hours are a little less palatable is the biggest difference.

I think the vast vast majority of non-BA airline pilots in the UK want to see BA's T&C's improved.

WWW

[Super Stall]

Hand Solo,

You're postings display absolute clarity (of thought and in writing).

I applaud you.

Pls keep it up.:)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Just as an aside on turnaround times.

At Go (and Buzz) there is pre-assigned ticketed seating for 148 pax (higher density than BA). More often than not the bars have to changed (domestic to international are different).

On board cleaning down route is by the cabin (and sometimes flightcrew) but on return to base the cleaners come on board with hoovers etc. The cabin crew also have to cash up their on board sales.

We operate BA procedures for briefing, checklists, walkarounds etc. So; things aren't actually much easier than in full service.

Its not black magic to do a 25min turnaround and I am sure BA pilots do it just like anyone else. It usually depends on the pax - 148 off, 148 on in 25 mins really is very hard. Often as not the flightdeck is waiting for the pax/loadsheet than the other way around.

Then you cop a 30 minute slot or 4 times around the hold at TALLA and you wonder why you bothered! :rolleyes:

Oh and BTW we actually have a six sector day.

WWW

[Desk-pilot]

I'm surprised at how unhappy many BA pilots there are - I work for BA as a Waterside person (jeez should I duck now??) and have always wanted to be a pilot.

I am taking voluntary redundancy in order to fund my own training after which I will earn less than I do now for a couple of years. I'm doing it because I have always loved flying and it worries me that several of you would probably tell me to stay put in view of the decline in your terms and conditions! On the other hand after a degree and 11 years experience of IT and project Management including 7 years in BA I take home just short of £2500 a month, get 26 days leave a year and have 8 days leave a month on average. I know a SFO on 747's with 7 years experience who takes home £4000-£4500 a month, gets more leave and most importantly isn't bored at work!

If it's any consolation FS&S has been pretty severe in the back office with around 1/3 of Managers cut so it is totally incorrect to call it a failure. If you believe BA has an overmanned back office then it seems to me FS&S is addressing that quite well.

Maybe you need to sit in a department where people are seriously worried about their job security and whether they can continue paying their mortgage to get some perspective.

Desk-pilot

[basil fawlty]

Desk pilot has it right. BA crews (mainline that is!) have just about the nearest thing you can get in professional flying to a job for life. Enjoy it, its a priviledge many others do not have.

Hand Solo, you still go on and on about putting a roof over your head etc. but you are managing to do that already aren't you? Oh, perhaps you want a new Bentley every year, earn enough to maybe take 3 holidays a year without having to rely on staff travel to get you there, send your kids to good public schools etc etc....You really come across as a greedy SOB, maybe you'll have to cut back on one meal out per week.....oh, the hardship!!
BTW,****, if you read the homepage for this site it says it is open to ANYONE with an interest in aviation..... not just pilots (although i do hold an ATPL so i guess i qualify anyway) so its obvious where your priorities lie... a keen advocate of the "I'm alright Jack, so **** you" mentality. With posts like yours I'm absolutely amazed that you can't understand the negative tone of the replies you and BA posts in general receive!! Try giving out some sympathy for a change instead of these pathetic tales of woe...reminds me of the joke "why is a BA pilot like a daffodil?...Ans- "Nice to look at, but can't take much rough treatment!" I am not against the salary you receive now or any improvement per se, but where exactly is the money going to come from??? BA is in the ****. Are you advocating that someone else should lose his job, not pay his mortgage, not feed his kids etc. in order that you should get a pay rise to what you FEEL you are worth?? I know that some people are perhaps not so intrinsically vital to the operation as a pilot, but they have a life just the same as you dear boy, and if you are not prepared to share a little in these hard times then that just shows you up as a greedy little **** doesn't it?? As for your comments on the engineers, well, let me just say that if you didn't have engineers to fix the A/C, or signing CRS's etc. then you would have no aircraft to fly, so they are just as vital as you are in the grand scheme of things. They earn a lot less than you do, so if anyone deserves a pay rise and improvements to working conditions first then they do, NOT YOU.

[Hand Solo]

Don't get too excited about the pay desk-pilot, I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've taken home £2500 or more in the years I've worked for BA (but at least I enjoy my work). You may only have 8 days leave per month, but I bet its all on weekends, something which most pilots very rarely achieve. Plus are your 26 days leave all weekdays? I'm only entitled to 30 weekdays of leave all year (I have little say in when I take them either), and I work unsociable hours and public holidays. I've no interest in starting an 'I'm worse off than you' argument, but sweeping generalisations about how a 744 SFO earns sooo much cash just cloud the issue. Not everybody earns that, and I know shorthaul Captains who earn a darn sight less than that. What price do you place on being home for Christmas or family events, not being thousands of miles away when things go wrong, not being constantly jet lagged, not facing the suden end of your career due to a common medical complaint at any time?

I have every personal sympathy for the people at Waterside who face losing their jobs, but to play devils advocate here one could say that as it seems the airline will continue to function without then why were their positions ever necessary? We've employed too many people for too long, thats whats dragged the company down.

Good luck with your endeavours at Oxford, it'll be a long, hard road and you've made a brave decision to go for it. I hope you complete that course and soon find yourself sitting in the RHS of the aircraft of your choice. However once you're there, with a mortgage to pay, family to feed and a big training debt to service, take time out from enjoying the job to assess the financial risks you face, and the relative levels of personal responsibility between your new job and your old one. You may find yourself surprised.

Edited to say I posted this before reading Basils ridiclulous, vitriolic rant. Basil I have no qualm with engineers being paid much more, but its not my job to fight their corner. Furthermore when they can present a case for pay restructuring to the company which represents ZERO NET INCREASE IN THE DEPARTMENTAL BUDGET like ours I'm sure they'll have the full support of flight crew without accusations of greed and self-interest being levelled. Until that happens I suggest you take a valium and do domething to suppress your obvious hatred and prejudices against BA flight crew.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Basil - you are stepping out of line. Curb your language - asteriks don't count.

If you want to bash BA pilots for some reason do it with biting insight and searing reason. It works much better and avoids making you seem like a prat.

Cheers

WWW

[knows]

Hand Solo. Another factual, accurate, eloquent, articulate and amusing post - WELL SAID.

[Land ASAP]

Suggest you go thrash your Austin Allegro with a tree branch, Basil.

[Soup Dragon]

Hand, may I also applaud you on your usual well constructed and eloquent posting. How you manage to restrain yourself despite the drivel from the likes of Basil amazes me. (PS Have u married that doc yet...or am I on the wrong trail)

Basil.....no, I wont even bother.

Moderator: do we have guidelines on the posting of vulgar abuse such as displayed by Basil. I would be interested to hear what he has to say if it weren't for the expletives. I vote for banning until he grows up.

[Hand Solo]

Thanks chaps, always reassuring to know that I'm not alone in my thinking!

Soup-I think you're on the wrong trail there but if you know any attractive female doctors then feel free to direct them to me c/o the BHX Eurohub!:D

[Seer]

<<Suggest you go thrash your Austin Allegro with a tree branch, Basil.>>

It was actually a Morris 1300... sad... but true!!

[Desk-pilot]

Hand-Solo,

Many thanks for the informed and interesting comments - I look forward to flying with you one day at the sharp end.

Re: pilot pay it seems it is very variable from what you write. It also seems impossible to get hold of any indicative salary scales (if only to calm my wife's fears!) so if anyone has a copy they don't mind emailing I'm on [email protected]

Thanks for the good wishes re: the course and career change. I feel exhilerated and terrified all at once so your words are greatly appreciated.

Desk-pilot

[HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD]

As a lowly charter driver in the open market I think it is an ill wind that blows the Nigels from their lofty perch.As the flag carrier we need BA to set the standard in terms and conditions for the rest of the industry.What chance do we mere mortals have of negotiating wages upwards when our managers can point to Nigel and say"Well BA don't get that much"?
Now don't go thinking that you are somehow more worthy of extra cash because of your superior lego building skills Nigel,it's just that we need those flagship terms to counter the ever increasing downward pressure on the market.
As for Basil and the "your choice"mob.Well we could all have chosen to be internet millionares but we didn't!.We therefore have a professional obligation to defend our terms and salaries from our unique locked in seniority system. We all love to fly but should never use that as some kind of pay off for accepting an erosion in pay.We don't all have hotels in Torquay to supplement our income!

[Jetdriver]

I have better things to do than deal with the language in your posting. Far easier for me to delete the post or simply close and move the whole thread.

On this occaision I have tidied it up.

soup dragon, we do indeed ! I have just received other complaints of this post. The post has been edited and that will suffice for this occurence.

Now back to what I was doing... and on with the thread.

[HomerJSimpson]

I deny all knowledge of this so called 'HOMER SIMPSONS LOVE CHILD'. I am devoted to my wife Marge and my three children Bart, Lisa and ......??? oooooh Doughnut !

[basil fawlty]

Jetdriver, WWW, BA pilots & anyone else who has followed this thread!!
First of all I would like to apologise to those on here who feel ill at ease with my use of shall we say "earthy" language. I thought that you were all able to take it, I guess I was wrong!
However I DO NOT apologize for my views...
I DO NOT HATE or have PREJUDICE AGAINST BA OR ITS FLIGHTCREW. One of my best friends is a retd BA 747 skipper. The whole point, as I stated previously (and my point seemingly ignored) is; How on earth can BA crews expect a significant pay rise here and now? The company is on its knees!! They appear to prefer to see other people made redundant from a very, very average salary to £53 per week jobseekers allowance in order to fund an increase to what they feel they ought to be paid! Hand Solo keeps telling us about cutbacks here and there and the "sacrifices" made by pilots, but giving the cash saved straight back out in salaries again defeats the object somewhat doesn't it? As I STATED PREVIOUSLY there are certainly too many managers/pen pushers/papershufflers and the like draining resourses. This problem is very historic in nature, but is now finally being addressed and hopefully a leaner, less wasteful BA will emerge in the future and this will be to everyones benefit. If BA guys are saying that savings should be made in flight ops or in any other department just to fund a pay rise that the flightcrew would like, then I think that is supremely selfish, and I'm entitled to say that! Yes, pilots deserve to be very well paid for what they do, but whinging and moaning about it right now in these troubled times just paints all you BA pilots posting here in one light....a tad GREEDY. The pilots at BA I feel sorry for are the new starters, probably on a 'C' scale, and as rightly pointed out, will probably not make the LHS of a 747 unless they are under 30 today. I could suggest that the senior guys can perhaps "self fund" a payrise for their junior collegues if it worries them that much. I don't see charity quite stretching that far somehow!


I have tried insight and reason in argument on many occasions in the past. It doesn't work too well in the face of the "BA establishment" on here, all ready and willing to stick up for one another when an opinion or statement is posted, the contents of which they do not like by criticising them in some way. These guys have their own forum, I request that they go off and whinge/moan/congratulate each other in private. What else is it there for? I will not contribute on such subjects again, I can see I'm wasting my time....Brings to mind the old saying, "There are none so blind as those who do not want to see" Well, BA guys,I'd probably respect your opinions a lot more if you didn't readily dismiss mine out of hand. We can all learn something.....YES, EVEN YOU!!

[overstress]

I guess by your apology Basil you may slip further down the moderators' removal list! It was timely and you seem calmer now!

However the fact remains that times are really not that troubled and BA is now seriously short of pilots.

In a shortage of something, the price goes up. I see nothing wrong in striving, in a small way, to drag the BA pilot salary UP to the market rate. I have LOST income by joining BA from a major UK charter airline - you may well ask why! The fact that I made a choice does not prevent me from trying to improve my T's & C's for the benefit of my family - which is why I work for a living.

If you wish to undermine my intentions, and those of my colleagues such as Hand Solo, you will meet with determined and implacable opposition from us wherever you choose to post on this forum.

[Jet II]

Slightly confused - the BA crews on this thread are pleading poverty compared to the other UK airlines, I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've taken home £2500 or more in the years I've worked for BA (Hand Solo)

But if you go to the "Punctuality before safety: Chirp reports on a Low Cost Airline" in Reporting Points, Secret Squirrel seems to be saying that BA have much better T & C's than the 'no frills'
A first year FO on the Scarebus at LHR (if you are good at leggo it could be you!) takes home £3,400 (Secret Squirral)

Who's telling porkies?

:confused:

[Hand Solo]

Well I'm not. Some people may make that sort of cash at LHR, but it all depends on:

1) Basic pay (old A scale, DEP B scale or CEP B scale, there could easily be £20K difference in basic alone between these). Plus you may be a trainer so there's another increment.

2) Allowances. These depend on how good your roster is, more lucrative trips means a bigger pay packet, but they can be incredibly variable. A very good month might be £1500 to an FO, but a bad month could be £400. Or nothing if you've been on leave, reserve, sick. The flip side is the more time you spend away from home to get those allowances, the bigger your Diners Club bill at the end of the month, so you can knock several hundred quid off those figures.

3) Seniority. This is broadly linked to your basic pay scale, and dictates your ability to bid for the trips that will get you the most allowances, if that is how you choose to bid. It also allows you to achieve more time off if you want to bid for it, so that you will be more often be available for.....

4) Overtime. Nice if you can get it, but I'm usually far too busy.

One of the main problems with pay in BA is that due to the anachronistic system of pay and various allowances there can be enormous variations in pay on some fleets within just a few seniority points. There are plenty of senior long haul FOs earning more than junior short haul captains, and in some cases junior long haul captains. On top of that the pay system distorts the bidding process as people are compelled to bid for what will earn them enough cash rather than what they actually want to do, which means senior guys endless moaning about how bad NRT is (whilst raking in the cash) whilst the junior guys are stuck in Lagos for the fifth time that month on £2.80 per day.

[falconer]

I was recently flying with a DEP of about 3 years in BA. We worked out since his time in BA he had lost about £ 200,000 (yes two hundred grand) by leaving his previous employer. This consisted of salary differential as he was a capt. in his old company, plus he had to forego some healthy share options. He as 2nd in command of a 747-400 was paid less than many of his own cabin crew.

For those that think they might have cracked it by joining BA on its major fleets ie 744 or 777, think again. The pay is the same as an A319, and you will be stuck at the bottom of the list getting the worst rosters for years. The plus side is that yes, you will eventually be a Longhaul capt in big airways, but is it worth the sacrifice. The gamble is , will things improve, I doubt it if you believe management when they say they get killed in the rush when the do recruit.

Regards All.:(

[JW411]

Tucano:

"British Airways should still be the symbol of national pride it once was."

For those of us with defective memories could you just remind us precisely when this was?

"It is in all our interests for the company to carry on and succeed."

I would agree that for BA shareholders and employees it is in their interests that the company should succeed but why should the rest of us view BA any differently from, for example, BMI or easyJet?

[noblues]

To set the record straight about dosh ...... I'm a DEP on the Airbus at LHR, joined 2 years ago and averaged a take home last year of £2850 ....... Like many I took a pay cut to come here and threw away a jet command.

The overiding reason I joined was LIFESTYLE ...... I NEVER have a roster change unless its to take a trip off me and give me the day off ..... the only downside is approx 1.5 21 day reserve periods per year of being messed about.

The bid system favours seniority, which although I have as an FO on this fleet due my age (mid 30's) I will never have it on any other fleet, especially as a Capt. ...... BUT even on a 'blind line' I get to ask for days off and most people get 75% of what they ask for .... Most other companys do not even offer that ....

I will retire about 1200 seniority, probably never see a long haul command .....

If you have never flown out of LHR before on shorthaul think carefully .... Its hassle to get in and out from, hassle getting to and from the a/c and park park etc ..... although a lot of 4/5 day tours on the airbus if you don't mind being away ......

Another reason for me joining was the lure of a good final salary pension retiring at 55 ..... BUT if that has now gone think carefully before signing on the dotted line ....

Also, now the City Flyer guys are on the main list seniority and loads of people under 30 you may wait 8-10 years now days for a LHR shorthaul command ...... (was about 6 years if you joined 2 years ago ...) ....

Think carefully ..... Lifestyle is good BUT seniority and pension issues, plus huge impersonal company .... never fly with same people ....... ???

[AlphaCharlie]

At present, I would only be too glad to be able to worry about who to sign for and who offered the best pay and conditions. Aged 19 (admittedly very young and probably overly concerned), I cannot see any way of realising my life long dream. There is no news of any airline (except klmuk) resuming sponsorship schemes and for the vast majority these schemes are realistically the only way we will ever be able to fly.

To have a hope of having a decent career covering a few a/c types and progressing from RHS to LHS and from shorthaul to longhaul, you need to join an airline before you are 30, maybe slightly earlier! I plan to go out and work after uni and save every penny, but if I need to save £80,000 to pay for my training it will never happen.

I would give my right leg (which would somewhat hamper a flying career) for the airlines to restart sponsorship schemes. A few years ago, BMI, Air 2000, KLMuk, BE, BA, Airtours, Aer Lingus and a few others all ran schemes and between them probably trained 300 - 400 students a year.

From where I am sitting (a grotty university computer lab) a shorthaul RHS on the Airbus fleet at LHR sounds like a dream come true, let alone a RHS for BE in a RJ100 or KLMuk on a F50. Frankly, as long as I could afford to pay a mortage, eat, clothe a family, and save the pennies to cover the supposed pension crisis, the rest is just trimmings. I would rather be flying than do a 9-5 desk job in London earning £60,000+ a year. I simply wouldn't be happy!

Fingers crossed the industry continues to pick up, that the airlines resume their sponsorship schemes, that the government doesn't drag its feet for another 8 years, like they did with T5, before granting more runways in the southeast, that Stephen Byers is sacked so that the transport department can get on with its job, and that I win the lottery and will not need to rely on sponsorship to fulfil my dreams.

[Naughty Nigel]

Alpha Charlie:

What idiocy is this? You want to do the job for expenses only? Its fools like you that have seen pay in the industry reduced year on year for far too long already. I love flying, I really do, but I'm not prepared to see my profession sold down the river by people such as yourself.

The required training, the cost of said training, and the level of responsibility invloved in doing the job should determine the pay rate. Comparing pilots to other professions, I believe on those grounds we should be earning more than the average lawyer or accountant, and slightly less than the average doctor.

Lots of people want to be doctors - university places are massively oversubscribed, yet you don't hear people suggesting Doctors should have their salary reduced as a result. So don't do yourself and your potential colleagues down like that.

And to all of you namby-pamby tree-hugging types who'll tell me off for snapping at the guy on his first post - its you lot that seem able to rant for pages about how bad it is for BA CitiExpress to undercut BA mainline pilots, who shouldn't be undermining GB pilots, etc, etc.

Nip these stupid ideas in the bud while they're young I say!

Doesn't matter how much you love your job, never sell yourself short. Everyone else in the world isn't so nice, and they'll take your money away and walk all over you with a big smile on their face. Especially airline managers.

[kimmeke]

Naughty Nigel,


I totally agree with you but..............

Dont you remember the time when you where young and dreaming of becomming a pilot? We all taught the same way as long as we where learning how to fly. It is only after you have been employed for a couple of years as a proffesional pilot that you are able to see that there are also a lot of disdvantages!

And indeed that too many airline managers tend to use this as an argument: you guys earn money while enjoying a hobby!

To Charlie: be patient. Things will change eventually. But one tip: do not make big expenses unless you are sure of a job! Here in Belgium young pilots payed over 74000€ for their training. Now they are on the market as jobless pilots, no type rating, 220Hours total time......No way to get hired! And they need to pay for licence renewals etc....

Wait!;)

[AlphaCharlie]

Naughty Nigel

You go ahead, shout me down (no sarcasm intended). This is a discussion forum and everyone is welcomed to their own opinion. I welcome you comments.

I admit that I am young and undoubtedly once in a job will see that the pay should be better for what a pilot does, but at present I believe that if an airline wants to pay £60,000 of its money to train me then I should give them loyalty and not be overly expectant on what they will give me once on line, I fully expect to be taken advantage of since they paid for the training. Most jobs are tough when you first start out.

I just think that at the moment, until the industry picks up, people should sit tight, be thankful they still have a job, and give the airlines a chance to recover before placing demands. Even for a uni graduate, a starting salary of £25,000ish rising to £32,000ish after five years and then upwards to about £60,000ish is an excellent pay structure.

[6feetunder]

AC, I'll try to be diplomatic. Why do you think they are paying that large sum of money to train you? To do you a favour? That seems to be the way you feel. It is the way many pilots feel but if they didn't have to do it they wouldn't.

Airlines are in the business to make money. They aren't now or have they ever been in the business to a) provide you or anyone else with a job b) do you or anyone else any favours.

To make money they need to generate revenue. They do that by operating airplanes and putting bums in seats. Believe me if they could do it without those pesky pilots in the front they would. That money spent on your training comes back to them in spades when you get to the line and start generating revenue. Don't ever feel beholding to an airline for providing you with training. The airlines that charge their pilots for type training only do so because they can. When the pilots of the world get a grip and stop agreeing to it then it will stop.

You are a professional aviator, not a charity case.

[Pandora]

AC,
eight years after graduating, and Mr Pandora is on more than I will ever see as a BA captain. I currently earn less as a FO than I did as a mediocre graduate 5 years ago. I did not start in BA on £25000. (Even think about expenses and I'll not only get out my dictionary to explain what the word means, I'll send you a copy of my Diner's bill to prove it.) I have given 2 years of my life to BA for free. I will spend the first 5 years of my employment with them at a significantly reduced salary, and on top of that comes the double whammy payment of £250 per month for 5 years to cover training costs. At the end of my first 5 years in BA, trust me, they will have got more than their £60 grand's worth out of me. With the pension now in danger it is not the fianancially attractive occupation it once was.
Now don't get me wrong. I love my job. But that is what it is. It is the thing that has to put a roof over my head, feed me and clothe me. It is not a crime or a sin to enjoy the way you earn your money. My friends who (without exception) earn more than me don't spend so much time away from home, nor do they have to report for work at 5:30am. They don't worry about hijackers, engine failures, DVT and radiation, fatigue or jetlag.
If someone started suggesting that because being a lawyer is such a great job, and so many peolpe want to do it that they should start lowering the pay, there would be anarchy in the legal world. As pilots we are professionals and expect to be treated as such. That includes a wage which recognises our professional capacity. I would suggest that if you want to join this group of people you start behaving like a professional. Don't be so ready to sell yourself down the river because a moment of stupidity overtook you and you gave up your right to a comfortable life in exchange for the ability to fly.
At 19 you are young, so some on this site may cut you a little slack. But if you seriously believe I owe BA something because they trained me, you need your head examining. They didn't train me cause they were being nice. They trained me because they need pilots to fly their aircraft, and after extensive experience have found that one of the best ways of getting more pilots is to train them up. No one has yet found a place where pilots grow on trees. And if people weren't quite so willing to thow stupid amounts of money at training BA and other airlines would have to swallow a lot more of the cost.

[maxy101]

Hear, hear! As a former BA cadet pilot myself, I can tell you the rosy glow soon wears off after a few years in BA. I don't want to start complaining as I know other pilots have similar ,if not worse experiences. However, a lot of this is self inflicted. Some of our colleagues will come to work for nothing. <Funny how the cabin crew never say that though> I also never hear my doctor, lawyer, accountant friends say that either. They are on a considerably better package than I will ever achieve. So , while I am unhappy with my package here at BA, I am aware that most of our current ills are self inflicted, and we hold the key to improving it. Until that happens , you only have to look at the number of non resident pilots to see how people are trying to improve their lot.

[AlphaCharlie]

My point was simply this:

To become a commercial pilot you need to undergo expensive training. The BA TEP scheme pays that training bill for you and (provided the commercial needs of the airline are still ok when you qualify) you are guaranteed a job. OK you pay back some of this training cost from your salary and by being worked hard, but the other option is to work for years to save the money to train, by which time when you do join an airline you are lower down the seniority list and might not progress as far in your career, or you take out a loan, on which you make repayments each month from your salary. If you pay for the training yourself you are not guaranteed a job at the end of it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think BA are doing their cadets a 'favour' or doing it because they are being kind, they do it because they know they get something in return. I also realise that the likelihood of being sponsored by BA or anyone else is slim, but from where I sit at the moment, what I can see as the quickest and safest (from the point of view of a guaranteed job) to become a commercial pilot is by being accepted for sponsorship. It is also the first option to explore before looking at self-sponsorship.

However, I know that I am not going to sit around for years trying to get on a sponsorship scheme with an airline. I will go out and raise the funds somehow and pay for my own training.

[Carnage Matey!]

Close AC, but should read 'You pay back all of this training cost from your salary, and you are worked hard.'

[Gentleman Aviator]

1. Application form. 5 essays!

2. Group exercise in weston-super-mare. Group exercise is a paper planning exercise to get people over shark infested custard.


3. Interview. Why you want to join. Bit of warm and fuzzy - 'when did you last receive excellent customer service?'. Bit of Tech - Perf - AeroD.

4. If you pass, BAC 1-11 sim at LHR. (Cheeky practice available at Bournemouth). Birmingham SID, recovery, hold, ILS, overshoot, ILS.

5. Offer. Turboprop only at present, irrespective of experience. Recent drop in salary to £20,000 per year with £3,000 in allowances. Type rating on Dash 8 is £15,000 over 3 years.

I politely declined the offer.

ps. Recruitment process is run by a good man - quite refreshing.

GA

[Roger The Hosty]

Gentleman Aviator

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