For CASA - 'Educate or Regulate?' That is 'THE' Question...

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Flicking through the August Edition of the EAA (USA) Sport Aviation Magazine, brought a smile to my face...

There it was, in 'black and white' a story about how 15,000 aviators in the USA, are making their voice heard in their quest for allowing a class of recreation pilots to fly using the requirements of their Driver's Licence.

Now, of course I realise that CASA is also adopting this new approach for some recreational pilots, but the following para. caught my attention.....

"For decades the FAA (USA) has attempted to ensure we are fit to fly through regulation, but it has done almost nothing about aeromedical education.
We, and 15,000 of you, are now asking the FAA to reverse that situation.

At EAA we know safety comes through education, not regulation."

The article finishes with "Thanks to all of you who became involved.
Educate, don't regulate, lets go aviate."

Those words - "Educate, don't Regulate..."

Reminds me of the good old McArthur Job style of reporting air safety items re accidents / incidents. The style was always to 'educate' so that we, the reader, don't make the same mistake.
Now, the 'tone' seems to have changed considerably...

And, for some of us anyway, in those 'good old days' the various Examiners of Airmen and the like, who would take someone 'aside' at the Bar on a Friday night, with "I wanna see you"....and 'Educate' them, and...be friends to be treated with RESPECT after....

The response / effect was usually immediate and complete.

"I Learned About Flying From That" was a phrase oft repeated....and the subject of many articles in many Flight Magazines.

It is acknowledged that 'Regulation' is also required for Legal Reasons to keep Our Industry in line with the Law.

However, IF I live long enough, under the current 'system' of almost everything being a 'Criminal Offence, xxPenalty Units', it is very likely that I shall die a 'Hardened Criminal' in the pursuit of my favourite pastime.

I wonder which was / is the MORE EFFECTIVE method..??

I have to say, I've 'been educated' a couple of times by 'Learned Gentlemen',
early in my Flying Career, and I can tell you....IT WORKED!!

Food for Thought....:ok:

(I do wonder IF anybody at CASA ever reads these articles, and thinks...'That's a better way of doing things'...)

Happy Landings:ok:

[Jabawocky]

At EAA we know safety comes through education, not regulation."

What have I been saying over and over and over..... :D

[Jack Ranga]

We can also extend this to the Sydney skydive thread, now, a couple of pruners have advised me I have 'a way with words' :} So I'm going to have a crack!

I don't get this stupid attitude that is creeping into aviation, in particular GA. 'Nup, you can't do that, I'm the boss and it's too hard' 'Higher priority traffic' 'too hard'

How about working with industry, creating relationships, if there's a f@ck up how about getting on the blower and having a chat:

I have to say, I've 'been educated' a couple of times by 'Learned Gentlemen',

Exactly in this spirit. I'm involved with a dropzone in Vic, I know the boss, he brings his troops down to the centre to ask questions and have a look. His pilots are educated by him about what's expected and required. There is significant training invested in the pilots. I can't remember the last time there was a f@ckup. That's because he knows that if there is it makes everybody's job more difficult and the potential to stuff his operations up. This isn't a small dropzone, it runs a turbine, on busy days up to 10 hours a day, it goes longer sometimes (with multiple pilots due duty times). There is a standing offer to any ATC to right seat, haven't seen one up there for 6 or 7 years (and that was me)

Pilots, Controllers, Managers need to get off their arses and get out and have a look at each others jobs, not during business hours, when it's busy. All ATC's should be required to sit in the cockpit with a ME-Instrument, day/night, single pilot operation.

Why are there relationship managers at ATC but the service is worse? Less/No famil flights? I haven't seen a pilot sitting with the flow or approach for years, and not during this bullish!t 9 to 5 garbage.

Parking meters at a GA airport :ugh: Christ almighty, if that was done at a US airport there would be a riot, they wouldn't last 5 mins. Why are we putting up with this bullish!t. Have you heard of the pilots bill of rights that went through congress lately?

The EAA is a bloody amazing organisation. One very significant aviation event occurred in Australia last weekend. Narromine. From all reports it was an amazing success. Hopefully it is the beginning of Australia's EAA and will have the power that the EAA has to start rectifying the bullish!t that is going on in Australia.................Over-regulated, red taped, beauracratic, bean counting, self important, incompetent (have a got everything?)............

There are some cracking people working for nothing creating this new wave (I reckon most of us know who one of them is :}) Pull your fingers out and fix the crap that is going on here.

[Jabawocky]

The EAA is a bloody amazing organisation. One very significant aviation event occurred in Australia last weekend. Narromine. From all reports it was an amazing success. Hopefully it is the beginning of Australia's EAA and will have the power that the EAA has to start rectifying the bullish!t that is going on in Australia.................Over-regulated, red taped, beauracratic, bean counting, self important, incompetent (have a got everything?)............


And Mr Ranga,

You will be pleased to hear that the participation by four (4) experienced and senior folk from CASA made an outstanding contribution. They also worked through the weekend. The level of constructive guidance criticism and at times just plain simple help to the unfortunate folk who needed it (yes educational ramp checks) was exemplary to say the least.

The amount of positive public relations they achieved in several days could not have been bought with millions of dollars of publicity and promotions. All they had to do was a good job.

This is the very sort of Regulator / Industry co-operation that the GA fraternity is crying out for across all sectors. Some of these guys are star performers in this area, yet some folk in CASA I think have a negative view of what is being done.

Believe me when I say that JMAC has a few good guys he can be really proud of, what we need is for the folk I saw last weekend to have a greater impact across the regulator, and a whole lot less lawyers. I must say I was impressed with what I saw.

I guess we could go back to my country cop Vs Big City Cop story, that is how life is.

Its all about attitude and education. :ok:


Hey Griffo, did you miss the article on page 10 of the current mag? It spelled out clearly the meetings the EAA and FAA had with some "high level representatives of Australia's Civil Aviation Safety Authority". I was there, I know who they were, and this is the kind of stuff CASA should be proud of and embracing. I hope that the fine efforts of "a few good men" do not go unrewarded and unrepeated elsewhere in the industry. With more of these folk and their ethics, CASA will become respected and appreciated. If we have the opposite, I guess you know the outcome.

The solutions are not hard nor complex, they just take effort and no compromise.

[Jack Ranga]

Ahhhhhh, that's who they were :ok:

[Jabawocky]

yeah......you did meet them ;)

[Sarcs]

Excellent sentiments Jaba, Jack and Griffo however I fear that the horse has well and truly bolted! Take a look at this quote from Air Safety Australia in 2003:
There has been a long succession of complaints from the aviation community about CASA and its predecessors. There have been many investigations, Parliamentary and otherwise. The aviation community's complaints mostly focus on CASA's use of its powers of patronage and coercion. CASA's use of CAR 269 heads the list. It is at the very root of today's complete lack of trust by the pilot community in CASA.


Motorists generally trust the Highway Patrol. Farmers generally trust the Noxious Weeds inspectors. Businessmen generally trust the ACCC. But pilots do not generally trust CASA. This is not because CASA's staff or management are especially bad. It is because CASA has been invested with excessive discretionary powers, above all CAR 269(1)(a). The fact that the Highway Patrol, the Noxious Weeds Inspectors and the ACCC enforce their regulatory schemes transparently through the courts means that trust between regulated and regulator is not eroded when enforcement is needed.

Recommended amendments to Civil Aviation Amendment Bill 2003 (http://www.airsafety.com.au/cvam2003/2003civavambillamdts.htm)
How things have changed, NOT!:yuk::yuk:

I know there are still some very good people on the frontline, however like the Dairy Farmer at the end of milking, we still need to hose the ****e out from the top of the dairy to the bottom!:ok:

[Jabawocky]

Having brought a serious complaint against a traffic copper recently who was booking a lady for whatever, but left her and ultimately themselves in a severely compromised safety position, against their own training rules, I learned a few things.

Some arrogant hero'slike this guy, could have realised I was right and had all their personal safety ahead of anything else they were doing, and simply thanked me for my concern and acted on it. Or as they did, argue with me, blow me off with bull****, and then call me a fokkering idiot under his breath. :}

Clearly my hearing his better than he thought :}

So what resulted......he will be in deep doo doo for a long time.

The biggest problem I see with this is the bad public image and subsequent distrust of the Qld Police Service as a result. Morons like this guy ruin it for all the good hard working honest and caring police.

At CASA it is the same. The place is full of very good hard working and genuinely interested staff. Sure there will be some dodo's but keen and honest dodos we can all live with.

It is the "hero's" that ruin it for everyone else. The culture of writing rules so they can effectively apply a criminal case, water tight every time, rather than take a simple rule set, and go out and educate the industry on how to perform at best practice standard.

I have never personally met JMAC but I suspect he would want the latter focus. Everyone else I know in CASA does, so why the wrong focus?

Preventing TFU's and ditchings would be far easier done with the latter approach and use the budget on legal departments wisely elsewhere.

It is not rocket science.

Someone holds a lot of power, and has the wrong direction .......... And whoever he is is probably working out who Jaba is right now :uhoh: but if they are brave enough, come have lunch with me, happy to talk, I know a bunch of LAMEs at present who would share the same feelings.

[Creampuff]

‘Educate or Regulate?’ That is ‘THE’ Question…The question is a false dichotomy. CASA is obliged to do both, along with other functions. It’s in black and white in the Civil Aviation Act:9 CASA’s functions
….
(d) developing effective enforcement strategies to secure compliance with aviation safety standards;
…
(a) encouraging a greater acceptance by the aviation industry of its obligation to maintain high standards of aviation safety, through:
(i) comprehensive safety education and training programs; The culture of writing rules so they can effectively apply a criminal case, water tight every time …And who writes those rules? If you want to change things, it might be worth finding who actually writes the rules and why the rules are drafted the way they are.

CAR 269 was mentioned earlier. CASA hasn’t got power to repeal it, but the parliament could have repealed it 1000 times over in the last couple of decades. Think about who is actually responsible for that regulation remaining in force.

Or you could do what those responsible are really hoping you’ll do, and that’s blame “the CASA lawyers”. :ok:

[Old Akro]

The thing is that CASA (or probably the DCA), used to have this. The DCA, DOT (ATG) and even CAA used to be like this. Its the CASA incarnation that seems to have gone wrong.

In the seventies, eighties and even the nineties (at least in Melbourne), many guys from DCA(or whichever alphabet soup acronym we were up to) were members of flying clubs and visible. You could call into the MB office or 108 Lonsdale St and talk to them.

It seems that has now stopped, not only at CASA, but it seems to be a syndrome across our whole public service that regulators have become faceless and un-accessible and that they operate via regulation & policing rather than direct contact.

Once upon a time we must have had a good, visionary public service. I know this because you can see it in the legacy of road structures, dams, airports and all the things we have trouble doing now. In Aviation Australia has a long list of things it used to lead the world in. But now we are reluctant followers.

Personally, I think this happened when we started doggedly moving people and decision making to Canberra. I can recall in the past (late eighties / early nineties) articles being written examining how many people in the CASA predecessors had pilots licences. I forget the number, but it was significant and criticised for being too low. I'd love to see that exercise done again. CASA and many other agencies are full of people who don't understand what they are regulating nor have they ever had any visceral involvement.

[601]

Morons like this guy ruin it for all the good hard working honest and caring police.

One could change "police" for any occupation.

many guys from DCA(or whichever alphabet soup acronym we were up to) were members of flying clubs and visible. You could call into the MB office or 108 Lonsdale St and talk to them.

You could do that at Archerfield - once. Once LK arrived on the scene with a "no fraternisation decree" things changed and have remained so..

[sheppey]

Educate or Regulate?’ That is ‘THE’ Question…

Maybe the Americans are taking a lesson from one of our former senior CAA executives. I recall he was he the one that introduced Line Flying for FOI's - later cancelled by Mr. Toller. He also cleaned up some of the rorts that had been in place for several years. But for rogue operators I saw one of his written policies that made it clear that CAA were to work WITH the industry....in part....Communicate, Educate, Regulate, Decapitate.

Sadly these days it seems CAA jumps the first two steps.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Thanks Jab,
Have the article now....Two meetings even..?
:ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Creampuff...
It is acknowledged that 'Regulation' is also required for Legal Reasons to keep Our Industry in line with the Law....

Nothing new here...moving right along....
;)