Public Apology Owed

[Final 3 Greens]

PPruneTowers revealed GTE's real name last night.

I am pleased to see that wrong has been righted, but believe that PPRune should post a public apology.

Regardless of what has happened, to reveal someone's identity on an anonymous forum is not on.

Moderators, please note that I have no interest in discussing what caused the suspension.

[S-Works]

Would you like them to dress in sack cloth and ashes as well? Or will a night in the stocks do?

Seriously.........


:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Intercepted]

GTE has now registered on "the other side" and you can now read his own account of what have happened.

[Fuji Abound]

PPRuNe is not a democracy, and nor is it a members club (well as far as I am aware). It is a forum to discuss matters of mutual interest provided by another party.

Having contributed for too many years, in my experience it does a pretty good job. Most private pilots either come here or to Flyer.

Inevitably when contributors get banned, stir the pot, or are generally obnoxious it causes lively debate - and lets face it perhaps there is a little bit of old women in us all. ;)

However since its not our forum, those that own it have the right to operate the forum as they see fit. It seems to me if we don't like it then everyone has the right to go elsewhere.

Personally I think over the years they have done a pretty good job. They have often allowed debate that I would have thought crosses more than a few lines of "reasonableness" - and good for them!

I dont think the owners have any obligation to explain why they have removed threads or contributors, and more to the point, there could be a host of reasons for doing so that you certainly could not make public.

As with any organisation the owners should of course abide by their own rules as much as the contributors.

Those that would like to see things run differently, good for you, I am not criticising you and all credit to the owners for allowing the debate. As with any organisation you can have a go at changing the way in which it operates but dont get upset if the owners thank you for your views but do nothing.

[Final 3 Greens]

Would you like them to dress in sack cloth and ashes as well? Or will a night in the stocks do?


If I had thought that, I would have written that.

Don't be so puerile.

[Jan Olieslagers]

GTE has now registered on "the other side"

That is not entirely clear to this foreigner - could you be more specific? (per PM if you must)
Curious,

[[ edit: OK, found it, after searching a bit more ]]

[Final 3 Greens]

PPRuNe is not a democracy, and nor is it a members club (well as far as I am aware). It is a forum to discuss matters of mutual interest provided by another party.

Having contributed for too many years, in my experience it does a pretty good job. Most private pilots either come here or to Flyer.

Inevitably when contributors get banned, stir the pot, or are generally obnoxious it causes lively debate - and lets face it perhaps there is a little bit of old women in us all.

However since its not our forum, those that own it have the right to operate the forum as they see fit. It seems to me if we don't like it then everyone has the right to go elsewhere.

Personally I think over the years they have done a pretty good job. They have often allowed debate that I would have thought crosses more than a few lines of "reasonableness" - and good for them!

I dont think the owners have any obligation to explain why they have removed threads or contributors, and more to the point, there could be a host of reasons for doing so that you certainly could not make public.

As with any organisation the owners should of course abide by their own rules as much as the contributors.

Those that would like to see things run differently, good for you, I am not criticising you and all credit to the owners for allowing the debate. As with any organisation you can have a go at changing the way in which it operates but dont get upset if the owners thank you for your views but do nothing.

This may all be true, but it has nothing to do with this thread, which is calling for an apology for breaching confidentiality and not discussing what has happened, in line with the wishes expressed by the moderator.

[Rod1]

He has his say;

FLYER Forums • View topic - pprune problems (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=79141)

Rod1

[Fuji Abound]

Final 3 Greens

It does and that is why I suggested if nothing else the owners should abide by their own rules. That said (as possibly seems to be the case) if the information has already been placed in the public domain the cat is out of the bag and as we all know cant be put back in the bag how ever much you might wish otherwise.

Who released the cat in the first place I have no idea. Always a dangerous game.

[clareprop]

Afternoon chaps. Thanks to the person who pointed this thread out. I even registered on Flyer Forums as a result.


It's a bit unpleasant for me over on PPrune at the moment, and I'm feeling rather abused. I'm not going to publically explain what has happened, although a few people who I know well enough to explain have a reasonable picture of it.

In a nutshell, I did something which I felt was reasonable but that another of the PPrune moderators took great exception to, so he responded by making me invisible on the site, by removing my moderators powers, by removing my ability to send private messages as Genghis, and by posting (for about half a day anyhow until it got removed) my real name on one of the threads. He seems to have done this without consulting with the other moderators or with the site owners; the latter are looking into this at the moment (but being in the USA, are actually probably eating breakfast right now).

I'm optimistic that it'll all get sensibly sorted out shortly - the site owners at IB tend to be hands-off, but they are nice chaps and generally pretty sensible, as well as usually prepared to act decisively if they have to. No, I'm not at-all happy at my treatment, but on the other hand (even if it does feel a bit like I'm reading my own obituary) very grateful to the numerous people who have shown their support for what I've done over the years on PPrune and, ideally, would like to continue doing. I'm also very aware that this is not me being shut down by PPrune, it's me being shut down (hopefully temporarily) by somewhere between 1 and 3 people on PPrune (depending upon how many usernames each person has!). The vast majority of people on PPrune who have expressed any opinion are somewhere between neutral and supportive of me and I've been amazed at the vast number of supportive messages I've received privately from various directions.

I'm not going to post any more about this: here or anywhere else right now - I am trusting the site owners at Internet Brands to sort things out sensibly in their own time, and I don't think that my making accusations or publishing anything more than this will help anybody for the moment.

And in the meantime, I did some great flying at the weekend, and am doing some really interesting things professionally right now - and I am in this game for the flying, not the bulletin boards!

If I disappear, you'll know why...:E

PS, seems to be a few people on this thread who are a bit "moderator-ish".
Perhaps they have a few usernames...?

[Rod1]

Well – we have a resistance – now we see if it is futile.:)

Rod1

[Duckeggblue]

Airpolice, I think you will find that it has ..........................

[Fuji Abound]

This does illustrate the "problems" of censoring anything, be it photos or words - someone, somewhere will host it, even if sometimes not for too long, but usually just long enough for the whole world to know.

[peterh337]

It is technically trivial to start up another forum (off the peg software and getting it hosted) but it would suffer from the same moderation issues which every other forum suffers from.

Not just aviation, either. A forum for mums discussing wayward teenagers has the same problems.

Pr00n has a long history and as a result a lot of people still read it today, even though not anywhere near as many as c. 10 years ago.

It "just" needs to sort out the behaviour of certain mods. This has been a long standing problem and I am not talking about PF necessarily.

It also needs to make a decision on whether it really wants, as a matter of corporate policy, to become a forum for various self appointed private investigators. One issue to consider is that, in aviation, there is no end to how many people with allegedly dodgy backgrounds one can dig up. I met a number of dodgy characters just during my PPL training, and a whole raft of them during my 10 years' aircraft ownership, so shall I start a new thread? ;)

[Paultheparaglider]

There may well be many people in aviation with dodgy backgrounds, Peter. One thing is for sure, though, Genghis is not one of them. He is an extremely well regarded and well respected member of the UK aviation community.

He has been a valuable contributor here, and seems to have been a good moderator to boot. For the sake of this forum, I hope the powers that be recognise that, and get this mess sorted with the minimum of fuss.

[m.Berger]

Although I do not know anything of the squabble, I shall miss Ghengis' passion, common sense and knowledge.

[Duckeggblue]

Sorry Airpolice, no, I did not see a link....... I believed you to be referring to the use of GtE's given name by the mods instead of his user name. This has now been amended in both posts. Hence my post. My apologies. :(

[clareprop]

I do agree with F3G, an ungentlemanly slight appears to have been cast on GTE which deserves apology. I know Bose-X will mock such a suggestion but an honourable person or company would accept an error with good grace.
I think I'm fairly au fait with the qualifications of most of the moderators on this board but I'm not sure I know who "Slipslider" (?) is or what background they come from.
Any chance of enlightenment or is this also Verboten?

PS Is it me or has this post changed somewhat from the original:
It is sufficient to say that the value of Genghis contributions has been appreciated.

However anyone who is a moderator has access to some very private information which we trust will never be abused or revealed. Confidentiality is a foremost priority with the forum. Some information can have far reaching consequences if disclosed, often beyond the appreciation of the person disclosing it. This is the way that the forum has operated with great success for over 16 years.

At this stage some important decisions are being made with regards what has happened and Genghis is fully aware of everything that is happening and why. Hopefully at the very minimum Genghis will be able to return as a contributor.

Due to the sensitivity of the matter and out of respect for the previous work of Genghis the thread is now closed and is a matter of private discussion.

[KeyPilot]

Many people are commenting definitively despite not knowing the facts of the case, nor knowing GTE very well. Expression of opinion despite absence of knowledge is a common feature of most forums!

I concur with Fuji Abound's first post on this thread.

PPRUNE/IB run these forums as they see fit, we read/contribute or not as we see fit. I have no fundamental complaints.

Naming GTE (if indeed they did) is wrong, however this has to be seen against the fact that he regularly makes statements which leave little veil over his true indentity.

KPOUT

[clareprop]

Well, having looked at the posts, I now think it's fairly apparent who Slipwotsit is...

[Duckeggblue]

If I need to make it clearer, I'm happy to do so but I thought that including a link to the "offending" post and then suggesting that you should have followed that link and read the post, would be clear enough.

You don't, it was. I was responding to post 13 - and I have apologized.

[SlipSlider]

Clareprop wrote:

I think I'm fairly au fait with the qualifications of most of the moderators on this board but I'm not sure I know who "Slipslider" (?) is or what background they come from.Any chance of enlightenment or is this also Verboten?.

For the avoidance of doubt I am Slipslider and I am not a mod, not a frequent poster, not anything to do with this right royal c@ckup!

Re-instate GtE! One of the good guys, knowledgeable on aeronautical matters and a true gentleman, as his very measured post from Flyer BB illustrates. End of.

[clareprop]

Humblest apologies for besmirching your good name. Having checked properly I now see the fussbudget is in fact named Sidesliplanding

[KeyPilot]

Re-instate GtE! One of the good guys, knowledgeable on aeronautical matters and a true gentleman, as his very measured post from Flyer BB illustrates. End of.


Even if all you wrote was true, this does not mean he is incapable of wrongdoing.

Rather reminds me of the female Red Arrow, who left team do cries of support from PPRUNErs who did not know the facts.

Accept the limits of your knowledge and don't opine outside thereof

[clareprop]

Rather reminds me of the female Red Arrow, who left team do cries of support from PPRUNErs who did not know the facts.

No, not quite sure I understand your point. Do elaborate...

[KeyPilot]

People have a tendency to offer their opinion despite an abence of knowledge - that was evident on the military forum when the female Red left the team, just as it is here with GTE.

[Final 3 Greens]

I started the thread, Keypilot and the axiom is that GTE is owed a public apology for a mod posting his real name on the forum.

This not opinion in the absence of fact, I saw the post before it was edited and sanitised, after some hours.

As this is the thread I started, please will you stick to the topic and avoid thread drift, I would appreciate that.

[S-Works]

I started the thread, Keypilot and the axiom is that GTE is owed a public apology for a mod posting his real name on the forum.

Why? Mine has been posted a number of times and after complaint removed. I did not expect a public apology, its just the nature of the beast.

[clareprop]

...GTE is owed a public apology for a mod posting his real name on the forum. This not opinion in the absence of fact, I saw the post before it was edited and sanitised, after some hours.

And I would add, not marked as edited - one of the cheapest tricks on a forum and not a facility available to the rest of us even if we wanted to use it.

Below is a direct quote from the Pprune Forum Rules - look it up under FAQ's

Do not 'out' (reveal or attempt to reveal) the identity of another poster.

I believe KeyPilot, that both those points are indeed facts and not conjecture.

[tmmorris]

It can be hard when you know someone on PPRuNe personally because you have their face in your head when posting, I've nearly outed A and C several times!

Tim

[Final 3 Greens]

Why? Mine has been posted a number of times and after complaint removed. I did not expect a public apology, its just the nature of the beast.

Do you need me to draw you a picture? Go and read for yourself, in the same post where the mod made a strong point about the need for confidentiality, he broke the forum rules and revealed GTEs name.

That deserves an apology.

[Final 3 Greens]

And I would add, not marked as edited - one of the cheapest tricks on a forum and not a facility available to the rest of us even if we wanted to use it.


A very good point, Clareprop.

[Pace]

People have a tendency to offer their opinion despite an abence of knowledge - that was evident on the military forum when the female Red left the team, just as it is here with GTE.

KeyPilot

What an arrogant narrow minded response :=

Obviously people will voice an opinion on the information they have and should question for the information they do not have?
As for trusting the reasons given? As in life trust no one question all?

I suppose you blindly trust all that politicians tell you and blindly believe what you are told ?? :ugh:

Pace

[dublinpilot]

I find it incredible that this whole issue hasn't been sorted by now. The Flyer Forum must be very happy that this is dragging on, as so many of the Pprune regulars go over there to discuss the issue!

In all the time I've been on Pprune, I've never seen an issue like this arise.

I've never seen such a user outcry over one of our members being banned.

And the really stupid thing is that this sorry mess has been all of Pprune's own creating. It's been badly handled from the beginning, and the lack of action or proper communication with the users is just making it worse.

An outsider might be forgiven for thinking that Pprune management didn't care about the members of its second busiest forum!

dp

[Pace]

I do not for one minute believe that this is the voice of pprune? I do not know how policy or such decisions are made whether they are by group meetings which would be the voice of pprune or whether by certain individuals who unilaterally make their own decisions for pprune?
Whatever pprune should note the unrest among its members which has been over some time and which has culminated and come to a head with Gs situation They should take note that maybe they are not right and listen more to their members.
And as stated by another poster! I do not know all the facts so the above is written with a pinch of salt! I never saw G as anyone but honest and honorable and unlikely to pick a fight. So was surprised even shocked when it was him.

Pace

[Pilot DAR]

Well said Pace. I recognize PPRuNe as a privately owned entity, and entitled to conduct itself as it chooses, without being accountable to members for that conduct. However, members are similarly entitled to a sense of confidence that their contributions are valued. Afterall, it is those contributions which "make" the content.

Many of us bring a vast array of experience to this forum, and share it freely. Personally, I do this as my way of returning the generosity shown me for decades, by wise aviation persons who have shared their time with me - I feel I owe it back, this seems [seemed] an suitable place to make this effort. It is an effort.

Looking back, and assuming that one quarter of my 2500 posts actually had useful informative content, and took 10 minutes each to prepare, that's still about 100 hours of my time - given to PPRuNe, and it's readers. That could have been a couple of STC's issued. I had enough reason to believe that this effort was appreciated by members, to continue. Now, I'm not so sure PPRuNe cares.

Firstly, a bunch of those post are gone now - do they deserve to be? There has already been a request that information I had posted be replaced (on a different PPRuNe forum) - and I cannot, as the only copy, resident in PPRuNe, is not available to me - and I wrote it!

Secondly, I simply feel now that whomever at PPRuNe, for reasons of their own, are taking a slash and burn approach to dealing with what I believe to be a very pinpoint problem.

If this is the new PPRuNe way, I'm not sure I want to invest any more.

Personally, I am waiting with great interest to hear PPRuNe's side, not so much what has happened to Genghis' posts, but in general, how the value of all members posts is appreciated, and protected for the benefit of all.

In the mean time, I'm not investing my time in other threads - lest it be a waste, now, or in the future....

[FANS]

Pprune is an excellent discussion forum, which has been hugely dependent upon the contribution of a relatively small number of contributors – many of whom have posted 1000s of threads and given a wealth of experience.

GTE undoubtedly falls into that camp, and is one of the reasons for the current outrage.

That hardcore of posters massively add to Pprune, and without them, this website would descend further into junk and discussions limited to passing selection tests/ go around “emergencies” at LHR etc.

It is against that backdrop that it is reasonable to have some comment from the Mods, and not to have posts that they don’t like just locked or deleted.

[Ultranomad]

Firstly, a bunch of those post are gone now - do they deserve to be? There has already been a request that information I had posted be replaced (on a different PPRuNe forum) - and I cannot, as the only copy, resident in PPRuNe, is not available to me - and I wrote it!

Chances are your postings are still kept at www.archive.org (http://www.archive.org). I have just checked, they do crawl PPRuNe from time to time. On the other hand, given a confirmed case of deletion, we as users may take appropriate countermeasures by keeping publicly accessible copies of especially useful information we researched or generated. Peterh337 already does store some of his writings on his own site, and I suppose a few others may be already doing so as well.

[peterh337]

I think what's happened here is that the PP admins (Internet Brands) have comprehensively lost control of a particular well known moderator (who is posting under at least two names).

However this has been happening for years at some of the other less known PP forums, where bizzare things like this happened many times.

As I said earlier, the owners also need to consider whether in the long term they want to allow the site to become a forum for self appointed private detectives. Those threads may have helped uncover some dodgy characters (easy to do - aviation is a fertile breeding ground for them) but they have massively tainted the site in the eyes of anyone intelligent and reasonable.

Re my postings, if they all get deleted I don't suppose anybody will care. It is nothing like the huge archive of tech posts which GTE contributed over the years. I run my own website (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation) and the stuff I put real effort into goes on there. In fact, funnily enough, when one forum owner asked to to use my full name I said I will agree only if he does delete all my posts first :) He declined, but later they did it anyway so one day I will go back there with a script and clean them all off.

[Vino Collapso]

I missed the issue which led to GtE's removal and generated this uproar.

I am not normally one for 'Mod' bashing and have been around this forum on and off since the original Compuserve days started by Danny.

Surely the amount of comment being expressed here (and elsewhere) is significant enough for the Mods to issue some sort of statement? Even if its a bland no comment with little information in it I think that the feelings of many users of this site deserve to be acknowleged by the site operator.

If this was a customer service business the total lack of response by the 'management' would have done serious damage to its credibility.

[Rod1]

The fact that this thread is still live and has not been locked or deleted says to me that changes have happened or at the very least, someone is not as confident in their position as they were. I thought that when the flyer thread took off this would all get sorted quite fast but that has not happened. You would have thought that 4 pages of critical comment, hosted beyond PPrune control and indicating that many posters are moving forums would have encouraged a solution.

Rod1

[caber0]

The business model of the forum is to sell advertising as real estate on the site and click throughs. Real estate is valued by the number of people who view the page. This issue has created At least 3 topics and heading for a hundred posts, god knows how many hundreds of page views. This is all beneficial to the site owners.

Maybe the best way of getting GTE reinstated is to just stop talking about it and going elsewhere until we hear ( over there) that he is reinstated with all his previous posts and a public appology!

No traffic here means no revenue.

Caber :(

[Fuji Abound]

Vino - they did issue a statement on one of the closed threads, essentially stating the matter was under further investigation and giving a little background to their reasons. That may, or may not, suggest once they have completed their investigation more will follow.

It seems to me "odd" that without knowing any of the facts we are so critical. It seems to me entirely reasonable that the owners should have time to properly investigate whatever it is that has taken place. I would hope the owners of the forum will publish a statement and then comment might well be warranted. It just like some of the discussions about accidents - of course we can speculate all we wish, but it is just that, "speculation" until or unless the facts are known, and as interesting and sometimes as useful as that might be, reality is sometimes stranger than even the best fiction. ;)

I don't personally know Genghis but FWIW I have always found his posts well informed and fascinating. I know nothing of what might have given rise to the "ban" other than the conjecture here and his "statement" on Flyer.

[Rod1]

From Flyer

by Genghis the Engineer » Tue Sep 18, 2012 14:11
For people's information, it's obviously not sorted out over on PPrune yet, but I am still talking to Internet Brands.

I'm unclear what the reasons for the slowness in moving forwards are, but equally we don't appear to be going backwards either.

G

Rod1

[hoodie]

Soaring650's crystal ball appears to be in full working order. :rolleyes:

[Contact Approach]

No offence intended here: is this all not a little bit ridiculous? Other than the breach of privacy, surely said user could create another username and continue as per... or pack it in altogether! After all, the weeds do need attending to.
There is life beyond this abundance of yellow.........

[Final 3 Greens]

No offence intended here: but is this all not a little bit ridiculous? Other than the breach of privacy, surely said user could create another username and continue as per...
There is life beyond this abundance of yellow.........

This thread was started about the breach of privacy, others have engaged in thread drift.

Let's focus back, is it acceptable for a poster to have his name revealed by a mod, when the mod wrote in the same piece about the importance of confidentiality?

I think not and I think GTE deserves an apology.

That is why this thread was started.

[Final 3 Greens]

I don't mind the thread drift, so long as we do not lose the original point.

Seems silly to have multiple threads.

[Pace]

For me this is about all of us forum members and mediators sticking to prunes code of conduct and not using that code of conduct as a weapon while mediators ignore the code of conduct because it suits their own agenda to do so!
The code of conduct should be there for all mediators and forum members to respect and adhere too.
Mediators should be mediators ie unbiased!
There is far to much thread locking with excuses of things we do not know about which cannot be discussed!
I am also sceptical with politicians too ;)
I do not know the facts but there has to be confidence in what we are told and maybe that confidence is on the wane

Pace

[sidesliplanding]

Soaringhigh650 deleted his own post, before any moderation was required.

SSL

[clareprop]

...and....?

Was there perhaps something else you wished to comment on?

[Vino Collapso]

I am still coming to terms with a moderator with 2 posts to their name. Where is the experience of the forum that should be expected from a Mod.

[rats404]

Don't expect any response. The sock puppet account is related to a bad case of LMF...

[Intercepted]

Soaring650's crystal ball appears to be in full working order. :rolleyes:What did he say to get banned? You can always post in on the Flyer thread...

[Megaton]

Nice one moderators. You've banned one of the few contributors who's posts were really worth reading and "outed" his real name in the process. it's not Gengis who should be sitting on the naughty step.

[Cows getting bigger]

Not that I suppose it matters, but I think I'll be bowing out from pprune. Call it evolution, but I'm not sure I want to be part of this place any more.

Professional? :bored:

[Megaton]

Cows getting bigger

+1

[S-Works]

This thread is doing wonders for PPrune revenue hits. No publicity is bad publicity........

[dublinpilot]

About time!

So they removed the offending post after leaving it for days. I presume that they finally noticed it as a result of this thread. But having read this thread, they didn't see the need to apologise, nor to sort out the situation nor to make any public comment whatsoever.

That's very dissappointing.

[Pace]

DublinPilot

Sorting the situation as you put it is not a matter of reinstating G as a forum contributor and not a moderator which I am sure will happen! but dealing with the "problems" G is the straw that broke the Camels back.
The problems will remain and it will be back to business as usual.

Pace

[clareprop]

To be honest, with 73 posts on the subject and 6000 views, I think the point has been made. We're probably now in danger of over-egging the pudding.
My view is that if a response is to be made, I'll happily wait a few days to see it. If nothing happens, I can then make my mind up about further involvement.

[S-Works]

Oooooh, I did wonder how long before we degenerated into the normal PPRune personal insults.

And from a new poster!!

Where is my popcorn.

:ok:

[rustle]

Oooooh, I did wonder how long before we degenerated into the normal PPRune personal insults.

And from a new poster!!

Where is my popcorn.

:ok:

Blimey bose, severe case of pot/kettle/black. :=

[mad_jock]

Aye Bose you taildragging meat bombing multi licensed examinor pilot you.

[Pace]

Bose

I totally agree we should not get personal!

But you have posted a few times your last post included that with all these internet sites hits are all important for advertising revenue and hence the value of the site.

We all know of one very very long thread where abuse of innocent people myself included was allowed and blind eyes were turned from the sites code of conduct obviously to generate site hits and massive hits at that!

This is a Rumor site and rumor has it that the thread was closed down by external legal threats and not what we were told!

So you have probably hit the nail on the head re no advertising is bad advertising and site hits ;)

Personally I think it is a great site with wonderful contributors and moderators just needs a bit of tweaking


Pace

[500 above]

Guys, the best way to deal with any 'issues' is to contact Internet Brands, the owners of pprune.

Internet Brands, Inc. : Contact Us (http://www.internetbrands.com/contact-us/)

Failing that, we have CleeIB here on the forum who I'm sure would listen to any GENUINE problems anyone may have with strange goings on etc.

http://www.pprune.org/members/352424-cleeib

Clee is pprune admin for Internet brands.

[S-Works]

Blimey bose, severe case of pot/kettle/black.

Nah, I am just **** stirring. Its a quiet day...... :p:p:p:p

[500 above]

As I'm sure you are aware, Internet Brands have numerous sites to look after, not just this one. A PM to CleeIB would not be a bad thing, or an e-mail to them.

I'm fairly sure they are aware of certain issues with the forum, other peoples input may help them better pprune - worth a try.

[OpenCirrus619]

I would say, and this comes from Me, not Genghis, you could ALL help by expressing your views, whatever they might be, in a PM or email to CleeIB as 500 Above has suggested.

Done.

OC619

[Pace]

I really hope Towers boxes clever on this one and backs off to quickly gets G reinstated in the forums albeit not as a mod! I am sure he would prefer the freedom of being independent anyway!

Life is really too short for all these petty meaningless squabbles! Anything less would be a negative move considering the strong feelings of many of its long standing and respected members.

Pace

[KeyPilot]

The alert amongst us will notice many regular and respected contributors are biding their silence over this issue.

[Pace]

Why? I do not mean that in any funny way just curious!

Pace

[Ultra long hauler]

Gen the Man,

they say you still read this.......so thumbs up from Ecuador then, mate!

Just let this sour water flow down from your duck`s back!


###Ultra Long Hauler###

[Fuji Abound]

:bored:

and even more

:bored:

[Pace]

:mad:

And even more

:mad: ;)

[abgd]

I wouldn't consider myself a long-term member who's biding my silence, and over the past few weeks I've been away and reading the forum infrequently enough that I can't imagine what thread could have led to Genghis' suspension. However, I've been round for long enough to have thoroughly appreciated his depth of knowledge and valuable and good humoured contributions to the forum. I hope that we'll see this cleared up sooner rather than later.

I also feel that disclosing somebody's name on a forum is a breach of trust. I value the ability to discuss issues openly and anonymously on internet fora without fearing that details of my personal life may become available to my colleagues and patients, and I would choose to leave any forum where a poster's anonymity is liable to be broken at the whim of a single moderator, if this is indeed what has happened.

[thing]

As an infrequent poster but one who has met GTE in real life so to speak and who has valued his contributions I would like to say that he is a top chap, full of useful info; albeit a lot younger than I thought he would be (Ghengis the Toddler sprang to mind when I met him) and I hope he is reinstated here in his full capacities as engineer and pilot at large.

Sadly I missed the fracas that led to his dismissal so am unable to comment on the validity of it. I'm sure though that common sense, and meaningful intercourse with the site owners and advertisers will see a return to the status quo that we all feel comfortable with.

[astir 8]

Genghis is one of the (fairly) few contributors who make reading PPrune a valuable learning experience. I sincerely hope that he will be back soon.

Cue for a song?:{:{

[Brian Abraham]

Just to add my name as one of those who would miss Ghengis and his knowledgeable posts. Have no idea what the stoush is about, but hope it's quickly sorted and we see his return.

[Pilot DAR]

I notice with appreciation that at least some of Genghis' posts have been returned to being visible. Though I am unaware of Genghis' present relationship to PPRuNe, the quiet return of so much of his previous effort is a good step forward.

[24Carrot]

the quiet return of so much of his previous effort is a good step forward.

I would definitely concur with that.

Normally lots of posts survive bannings, SNS3Guppy is one example. What happened to GTE's seemed unusually drastic, and a loss to PPrune.

[S-Works]

Cue for a song....

Freeeeeeeeeee, Ghengis the Engineeeeeeeer........

[patowalker]

Most posts are about the contribution Genghis has made to Pprune, but that is only a shadow of his contribution to aviation. One group did not make it easy for him, but is today held in respect by the CAA, largely due his efforts. :ok:

[TomNH]

Off the strict definition of the topic but my 2p. I'm a long time lurker, student pilot and occasional poster. The threads I value are most often those that GtE, PilotDAR, BPF, Pace, PeterH, Mad Jock, BoseX and the like contribute to. These are, IMHO, what makes this worth bothering with.

I don't know GtE (or any of the others) personally, though I hope to meet them in the future, but cannot believe that he would do anything to merit such a response, except inadvertently. The sooner this gets sorted out the better, or I too am off to the dark side - if nothing else because that's where the interesting discussion will be.

[clareprop]

Latest from GtE at the other place:



I'm aware that I could have joined Flyer some time ago; to be honest I didn't because I'd got comfortable on PPrune before the Flyer Forum appeared, and because it has historically been excellent for the sort of deep technical discussions that I really enjoy. In particular the PPrune flight test forum was my idea, and I'm quite proud of the civilised technical discussions we've had there over the years.


In the meantime, I'm glad to say that my historical postings on PPrune have been restored, and with them everybody else's posts in threads I'd originated.

I'm still banned from the site as Genghis (I can of-course just logout and read the public pages anyhow, but can't post), and the disagreement with another moderator is not yet resolved. However, at-least this now can be reduced to a disagreement amongst PPrune management - which is how it should have been in the first place to be honest - without normal board members being affected by a disagreement that has nothing to do with them.

So I shall certainly be around here for the foreseeable, whatever happens over the road. Given the very kind welcome I've received, how could I not?

But I'll make no secret of hoping to get back to "business as normal" at PPrune.

[JW411]

I really am sorry but that was actually a very straightforward question.

Are you trying to tell me that mentioning that name is never to happen again?

1984.

[clareprop]

:uhoh: It was meant to be a pm...
Hopefully no one else noticed.. :O

[Final 3 Greens]

Honest question;

Who the hell is Xxx Xxxxx?

I started this thread to highlight my disgust at someone's real name being posted.

I'd appreciate it if you would edit your post to remove the name you state, otherwise this thread commits the very offence it is designed to protest against.

Thank you.

[Fuji Abound]

Final 3 Greens - names have always been removed in the past when a mod has been asked to do so - so doubtless if asked they would be (and should be) removed on this occasion.

[eharding]

I started this thread to highlight my disgust at someone's real name being posted.

I'd appreciate it if you would edit your post to remove the name you state, otherwise this thread commits the very offence it is designed to protest against.

Thank you.

This is all getting rather surreal.

If someone is quite clearly happy to identify himself in PPrune forum postings, is there really a need for vigilante action on one particular thread?

Here, for example, but a simple forum search will give you pages and pages of results. (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3522-moderator-christmas-day.html)

Clearly, if someone wishes to remain anonymous, that is a different matter (although forum anonymity causes more problems that it solves, IMHO - but that's a different matter).

Personally, I think all aggrieved parties in the current matter of dispute should settle the matter in the good old fashioned way - pistols or rapiers at dawn; none of this modern 'seeking a mutually agreeable consensus' codswallop. :}

[peterh337]

names have always been removed in the past when a mod has been asked to do so - so doubtless if asked they would be (and should be) removed on this occasion.

Not true, unfortunately.

Very recently bose-x used my full name in the bizjet (?) forum and the mods refused to remove it when I asked them to. They told me to contact bose-x.

Bose-x removed it only after I posted a brief "history" of his exploits, with his full name, and after I said I will remove my post if he removes my name.

Some of the moderation on PP seems pretty strange. Sometimes aggressive, other times they couldn't care less who gets pissed off.

[S-Works]

You really need to get a better grip of reality Peter, as that was not how it went. Funny how things always make you the victim.

I suggest you leave it alone now before we fall out again......

[eharding]

Very recently bose-x used my full name in the bizjet (?) forum and the mods refused to remove it when I asked them to. They told me to contact bose-x.

Bose-x removed it only after I posted a brief "history" of his exploits, with his full name, and after I said I will remove my post if he removes my name.


Maybe pistols at dawn wouldn't be such a good idea in the case of you vs. Bose-X - I wouldn't trust either of you with a firearm not to hit anything and everything within a 100 metre radius that wasn't your opponent, including your own nads.

[Pace]

Frankly this is ridiculous :ugh: how much thinking about things does it take to give G a chance??? five minutes not five days !!!

Ok do not take him back as a moderator but this attitude is sickening :ugh: At least give us a formal decision from pprune on the matter?

Pace

[rustle]

Maybe pistols at dawn wouldn't be such a good idea in the case of you vs. Bose-X - I wouldn't trust either of you with a firearm not to hit anything and everything within a 100 metre radius that wasn't your opponent, including your own nads.

:D

Very good.

:}

[Fuji Abound]

I think the pistols had better fire blanks so no one gets hurt, otherwise it sounds like it could be messy.

[jxk]

Now children behave!

[Jan Olieslagers]

At least give us a formal decision from PPRuNe on the matter?

Second that - but AFAIU this might well have to come from across the pond.

[Final 3 Greens]

Well it is ridiculous the way it is dragging on without a statement.

Somehow, I don´t think I´ll be adding to more many posts to the 4,500 over the last 12 years, unless something develops reasonably quickly.

[strake]

The last one of these issues, Guppy I believe, went on for hundreds of posts without any response, so I wouldn't hold your breath.

[S-Works]

Considering the number of users on the forum and the actual number of individual posters on this thread I doubt the ration is going to be worrying many anyone.

This is just another braying mini mob thread demanding instant satisfaction. There is no doubt that Ghengis is a gentleman but as we don't know the whole story this mob thread is a little one sided in my humble opinion.

My gut instinct is to give IB some time to sort out there internal position and see what happens. But hey, that's just me.

[Fuji Abound]

Bose-x - are you sure you havent applied for the job?

I vote for Bose-X to be our new moderator IF the post is permanently vacated.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Notifying a user when (& why) you modify a post
You ever tried moderating anything?

With a policy like that you'll get one or two obsessives taking up 100% of your time arguing about tiny tiny details in your reasons. This'll take over your life. In about two nanoseconds after starting the job, as the nutters come out of the woodwork and try it on with the new face.

"No correspondence" is the only practical policy.

[toptobottom]

...Ghengis' passion, common sense and knowledge.
Hear, hear...

I have no idea what misdemeanour GTE's is alleged to have committed, but I too valued the knowledge and experience in his friendly posts. I also liked his pragmatism and humour; there are one or two mods who have an imperious attitude - a bit like those car park attendants who enjoy wearing their peaked caps as if in some elite military squad... It's supposed to be a Forum for like-minded enthusiasts, not a Correction Facility :=

[Fuji Abound]

Gertrude - I have no doubt you are right. Give them an inch .. .. ..

[Ye Olde Pilot]

I think this place lost the plot like Pilotweb a long time ago:ok:
Just like Woolworths losing their slot on the High St to Poundland:=

[mary meagher]

O dear. I've been away for most of August and come back to find Ghengis the Engineer no longer the moderator and in fact suffering outrageous and unjustified slings and arrows.

Always found his comments wise and helpful. Do come back, old chap, we miss you. I can't get on very well with the Flying Forum layout, and find their general chat rather tedious. PPrune is my late night entertainment ever since I joined to find out more about Capt. Sully's glider....and though I have been slapped down when venturing into the sacred precincts of R&N, always felt welcome to contribute to Private Flying, a friendly and welcoming place.

BTW, I post in my true name; this happened by mistake as I pressed the wrong button, I really intended to join up as "Soupdragon"..

Which is nice, actually, because old flying chums now and then remember me on line.

Come back, Ghengis....illgitimatis non carborundum.

[Pace]

Mary

I hope you went on an adventure during August ?
I also hope it was somewhere nice where you could do some flying ;)
Fingers crossed for G gracing us with his presence again!

Pace

[ShyTorque]

there are one or two mods who have an imperious attitude - a bit like those car park attendants who enjoy wearing their peaked caps as if in some elite military squad... It's supposed to be a Forum for like-minded enthusiasts, not a Correction Facility

I pass no judgement on the "incident" itself but I think you'll find that rather than being a "peaked cap car park attendant" the moderator in question has been here since the beginning of the forum; he started the forum along with DF some 17 years ago.

[toptobottom]

ShyTorque - I wasn't referring to 'the Moderator in question'.

I actually said there were one or two, but I think you know who I'm talking about...

[ShyTorque]

No, actually I don't know. In the past I have had some of my posts removed without explanation, but I accept it as part of the permission to participate in this (free, privately owned) forum. ;)

[peterh337]

The problem with "strange goings on" is that each time it happens, some people will sod off in disgust.

As with any other form of emigration, it tends to be the "best" (however you care to define that) people that sod off first, which is why this and every other forum I know of, aviation and otherwise, has seen a gradual reduction in the quality of contributions.

With most posters, few would care if they got kicked out. I am sure few people here would be overly bothered if I got the boot and had all my posts deleted.

But with GTE, the line was well over-stepped because there is hardly another person on pr00n who has contributed with such high quality over so long.

And, ShyTorque, one day there won't be many people reading the stuff you write, so you will probably sod off also.

The best forums have been moderated fairly strictly, allowing dissent, disallowing personal attacks, and disallowing certain abuses such as outing alleged dodgy businesses and people (unless those businesses or people are present in the forum and making claims as to their bonafides).

[Yankee Whisky]

My previous post has, seemingly,disappeared in cyberspace and I am certain it did not contain anything abusive , insulting or personal. As a matter of fact it was pointed out I repeated an extract re GTE on a previous post.
My message supported the views of a majority on this tread and should have been left in.:ugh:

[Pilot DAR]

My previous post has, seemingly,disappeared

Yes, it would seem that yours is not the only one. Last night this thread was seven pages long, this morning, it is only six. I wonder what else has disappeared....

[Rod1]

Genghis the Engineer » Sat Sep 22, 2012 22:18
Just a brief "back on topic".

From the "apology owed" thread on Pprune...

JollyRog wrote:I have it on good authority that the PPRuNe people have admitted their error, apologised unreservedly to Genghis and reinstated his status. All is resolved.



Sadly this is not true - I've heard nothing since Friday evening when I last heard from Internet Brands who said that they were still investigating but hoping to reach a consensus of moderators opinions soon.

G

From Flyer

[Dawdler]

Yes, it would seem that yours is not the only one. Last night this thread was seven pages long, this morning, it is only six. I wonder what else has disappeared....

Perhaps the mod who appeared from nowhere has magicked it away in a cloud out smoke...... Poooof!

[Pace]

I was given certain reassurances regarding Gs return and on that basis stopped stirring the subject.
Still NOTHING??? I think its about time we had a formal announcement from pprune as to what they have decided to do with G as somehow I for one am feeling ripped off.

Pace

[Crash one]

Perhaps the fact that it is their train set is being applied.

[India Four Two]

As someone else reported, Genghis' posts are back and you can look up his profile.

What's interesting is the last activity on his account was about 2 1/2 hours ago (as I type this).

Are you watching us, Genghis? ;)

[clareprop]

Apparently, GtE is watching but he isn't doing....

[foxmoth]

Perhaps the fact that it is their train set is being applied.

It is all very well having your own train set, but if all your best playmates leave because you will not let them have a go it becomes much les fun!:}

[Pace]

Obviously it is pprunes decision on who they want on their site!
G is slightly different as he has contributed a lot and is held in high regard by many so it would have to be something very serious like stealing the family silver to get him
Banned for good! If its an internal ego thing then ???
Regardless some time has passed and we as the members should by now get a decision one way or the other regarding G.
I hope it is positive as the site needs people like him who have such a depth of knowledge and who are prepared to spend many hours sharing it with others!

Pace

[S-Works]

Regardless some time has passed and we as the members should by now get a decision one way or the other regarding G.

Members? Oh you mean free of charge users of someone elses asset.......

Seriously what planet are you on thinking that anyone has to answer to the 'members' on here?

As far as I can see G has beein reinstated, he may just be deciding to keep his head down. To frank, I don't see what business of anyone of the users on here it is as to what actually went on in the first place. Its an anonymous forum provided free of charge to anyone who wants to sign up and funded by advertising revenues and as such can be run however the owners see fit. If someone doesnt like it then don't let the door hit them in the ass on the way out!!!

Come on guys, there are better things to discuss than this!

[dublinpilot]

Perhaps what is needed is a "protest day".

At day when those of us who feel strongly about the matter, refuse to post here.

If there are enough of us the feel strongly about it, Pprune management should take notice of the lack of activity on Private Flying and the potential implications for their asset. If there aren't then at least we know that they are content to continue to ignore us.

dp

[flydive1]

Bose,
how are they able to fund it with advertisement revenues

Maybe because of the members that make it worthwile to advertise?

[Dawdler]

Maybe they are too embarrassed to let on what happened.

[S-Works]

Bose,
how are they able to fund it with advertisement revenues

Maybe because of the members that make it worthwile to advertise?

If you really think that a few people boycotting one piddly section of a massive forum is really going to have any impact in site hits you are deluded. In fact if anything all of the bellyaching on this thread over what is nothing more than a storm in a teacup has probably driven hits higher not lower!!!

This board is immense in size, Private Flying is one small corner of it.

But if it makes you feel better keep on going!!

[Pilot DAR]

Though I see Bose' point, it is not the whole story. Yes, PPRuNe is someone's private "train set", and we "members" participate at their pleasure. However, as pointed out by Flydive1, I too have a choice. personally, I produce more than I consume on PPRuNe (whether my product is of significant value is another discussion).

Consumers and producers of information (the "members") meet at PPRuNe, and each for their own reasons, receive the satisfaction they seek. If a "member" no longer receives the satisfaction they seek, they won't return. I presume that "members" departing is counter to the general desires of PPRuNe owners. In the big picture PPRuNe must want generally satisfied "members", or things begin to slow down the whole way around. yes, general satisfaction may result in a few isolated cases of member dis-satisfaction, but I'm talking big picture here.

I have considered my interest in continued participation here, if the high wisdom of PPRuNe considers Genghis' contributions of no long term value. The restoration of his posts was a very positive indicator for me, and certainly swayed my feelings. That said, I'm more a producer here than a consumer. I produce for the consumers here, not PPRuNe owners, or the advertisers. If they make a go of it because of my production, that's fine, but it's not my primary objective.

So, as I feel that there is positive response to what I post (though perhaps not from n9 recently), I continue for the consumers who visit PPRuNe. I don't really care who's train set it is, I can take my bridge, and go home any time I want...

[clareprop]

If you really think that a few people boycotting one piddly section of a massive forum is really going to have any impact in site hits you are deluded.
This board is immense in size,

A quick check on Alexa shows Pprune is rated worldwide at 26,000. For comparison, Airliners.net sits at 4,000. Even Flyertalk sits at 6000 - not really the same type of site but just shows the potential revenue difference.
In terms of numbers, a site rated just outside the top 1000 is getting over 5m users and 60m hits per annum.
So, I think more than a little way to go yet before terms such as "massive" and "immense" can be applied.
However, I tend to agree with your premise that, if I may paraphrase, no one at IB gives a ****.
Far more dangerous to advertising revenues is the advent and spread of products such as AP which I use permanently. Just my little way of keeping the upperhand :p

[Fuji Abound]

As I have said earlier I share Bose's view, however there is another side to the coin which hasn't been put.

While it is the owners toy and they can do as they wish I guess we would all hope the owners value the view of those that post and use the forum. If enough contributors express their concern one would hope they take notice.

In the same vein I suspect their are many who might say the same of their bankers these days or their mobile 'phone providers. Both are companies that seem to forget how important it is to listen to feedback and where appropriate address valid issues raised. Moreover the fact that a relative few express their view strongly doesn't necessarily mean there arent many more listening in and watching. It is a dangerous game to assume those few arent the tip of a much larger iceberg. Of course on the other hand the iceberg might have melted beneath the surface long ago - that is the beauty of being the owner, its for you to make that judgement call. Get it wrong at your peril!

Personally on this occasion I think it is a storm in a tea cup. ;)

[S-Works]

I was referring to the sheer number of forums that it hosts. The private flying forum is tiny corner of a very large forum. Even the writing on the forum list is smaller than the other forums.....:p

[dublinpilot]

Private Flying is the second larget forum on Pprune. The first is JetBlast.

[strake]

Given the double-dealing I have seen regarding this thread over the past week, I know who I believe.
Cheer-Ho all.

[Pace]

Bose

This site survives on its members who in turn attract the advertisers who supply the dough.
No members no Dough simple as that!
In the same way if you ran a restaurant with your attitude you would not survive 5 minutes.
The attitude of stuff the customers go somewhere else if you have any complaints will not make any business successful!
Where you are right is the advertisers! To get those you need the site hits .
General run of the mill aviation topics draw little interest especially when the subject has been done to death numerous times before!
Controversial subjects create the entertainment factor including ones which take a dig at Pprune and the moderators ? All good for business.
Take the Weaver thread! A pretty petty individual who would not generate half an inch in the press.
That thread was bled for all it was worth !
The prune soap ?
Just because the management mods and Pprune are the focus of attack means no more than kicking the dull threads into life with a new focus and more hits!
Who has a new EASA licence ? Sadly will not light anyone's fires !!
As for G members are a pretty good judge and something does not taste right!
This thread 15500 hits So be joyful :E

Pace

[S-Works]

Hey Pace, I personally don't care. I was just attempting to bring a little balance to the equation rather than just jumping on the tail of the lynch mob and going for a ride.

It makes not one jot of difference to my life..... :ok:

[clareprop]

Well that is an interesting story from Gte..far more weird than I imagined although I did receive some strange PM's over the past few days from someone who I presume was one of the two mentioned in GtE's post.
On balance, I think I have little interest in continuing here but then again, I don't really add much when compared to some :ooh:
So, I think I'll look in from time to time but always with my AdBlock Plus firmly operating ensuring I don't see any of those valuable adverts :E

[jollyrog]

I'm keen to know who Batman and Robin are. One of them is obvious, the other I can't quite work out.

[dublinpilot]

I posted (as Genghis, I don't like using multiple usernames) something along the lines of "but why do you want to do any training there?, IIRC you are based near ***** and I can think of loads of good schools nearer to home".

So now we finally know what all this is about, and the "confidential information" that Pprune Towers spoke about.

Seems like a massive case of over reaction on Pprune's side.

The outcome shows an incredible lack of respect for the views of its users. Can't say that I'm too happy with the situation.

Rog, as for Batman and Robin it seems pretty clear to me. One is a Moderator and the other is a poster doing private investigations. Which one are you having difficulty in figuring out?

[coldair]

This is a very sad state of affairs,

I have learnt a lot from Genghis as indeed many others have.

I hope that we will still see his wisdom and advice here on pprune even if under another username.

I am very unhappy about the way he has been treated here.


coldair