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Sunnyjohn
12th Sep 2012, 14:24
Brussels has upheld the claim by Ryanair that Spain is not able to revoke Ryanair's licence. Brussels has affirmed that a licence may only be revoked by the government of the country in which the company is licensed - in this case, Ireland. Here's a link to a summary in the Spanish paper Las Provincias:
La UE recuerda a Espaa que no puede retirar la licencia a Ryanair. Las Provincias (http://www.lasprovincias.es/rc/20120911/economia/recuerda-espana-puede-retirar-201209111659.html)

racedo
12th Sep 2012, 15:01
From Google translate.

The European Commission (EC) has said that Spain can not withdraw the license to airlines registered in another country citing security reasons, so no one could take such action against low-cost airline Ryanair, based in Ireland. "Under current European legislation on aviation security, the authority to revoke an operating license to an airline for safety belongs exclusively to the State in which it is registered," said EU spokesman Dale Kidd.
"That is, a British airline, could withdraw the license only British authorities, in the case of a Spanish airline, only the Spanish authorities," he stated. Answers to any questions regarding the safety standards applied by the airlines, and the imposition of sanctions also fall on the country where the company is registered.
The Spanish Minister for Public Works, Ana Pastor, announced Monday that Spain will promote change in the EU regulation to national supervisory authorities to extend their authority over foreign airlines strong presence in its territory. The Spanish government said it intends to toughen sanctions against airlines and ensure that they meet safety standards, after the incidents involving this summer by Ryanair, but Pastor eluded refer to it during his appearance.
Air safety
EU spokesman noted that the EC has not yet received any formal information on this initiative and has avoided comment on its contents until they receive the full proposal. Yes Kidd said the EU executive's willingness to improve European legislation on air reporting incidents taking place in the territory of a particular country, but involve airlines registered in another Member State. "This is something that the EC would support strongly and, in fact, we are working on a proposal of this kind," the spokesman noted.
For now, under current legislation, Kidd has indicated that if a country has "doubts" about whether an airline based in another country meets the security, can take the case to the country or the European Commission to take action . She also pointed out that there is a permanent control at European level on security issues related to air transport, which is in charge of the Air Safety Committee. "If there is any concern at European level concerning a Member State has failed to take appropriate action, the matter may be brought before the Air Safety Committee," was riveting.

racedo
12th Sep 2012, 15:07
http://www.ryanair.com/doc/news/2012/openletter.pdf

Seems like a Spanish agency (AESA) is briefing the media but said agency Director plus their Head of Legal is under criminal investigation for falsyfying documents.

Crikey you couldn't make this up.

Sunnyjohn
12th Sep 2012, 15:10
The Spanish government said it intends to toughen sanctions against airlines and ensure that they meet safety standards, after the incidents involving this summer by Ryanair,. . . thereby conveniently forgetting that the death of those on board the Manx 2 aircraft which crashed at Cork was indirectly caused by a lack of safety supervision on the part of the Spanish licensing authorities.

Telstar
12th Sep 2012, 15:50
I was involved in a relatively serious incident at one of the very major spanish airports in the not to distant past.

The situation was exacerbated acutely by two ground controllers who could not understand the most fundamental terms of standard phraseology. The MOR was sat on for nearly a year and the response was a token gesture and a whitewash. No one with any genuine interest in safety or prevention could have responded that way.

The Cork crash is another classic example of zero standards, zero implementation, and zero regulation on their home soil but they want to point the finger at Ryanair?

The system in Spain is rotten with corruption.

It pains me to agree with Racedo, but I have to agree, you simply could not make this stuff up.

racedo
12th Sep 2012, 16:14
It pains me to agree with Racedo,

I'm feeling the love ;)

Tableview
12th Sep 2012, 16:17
Could the Spanish, if they so wished, unilaterally ban Ryanair's aircraft from its airports or even from its airspace?

My guess is that within the framework of the EU, they couldn't, as such a ban would have to be mandated from Brussels where all power seems to reside.

paully
12th Sep 2012, 16:38
You have to understand the mindset of the present Franco inspired mob resident in Madrid. They are in the doo big time so to try to deflect their fellow countrymen, many of whom in the public service havent been paid for the last year, they are constantly looking for foreign scapegoats (have a look at whats going on towards Gibraltar for a flavour). O Leary is the first of many. Sadly though,Ms Pastor and her ilk, are not overly bright and they havent realised what they are taking on.

This is the sort of fight Mikey relishes and on this occasion I wish him well. The view from the terraces should be entertaining and I know who my moneys on..:D

racedo
12th Sep 2012, 16:46
Table

No as then breach of numerous European treaties and open themselves up for suing in court with penalties likely to be in millions.

On what basis would they ban them ?

Safety ? Given their airlines own record it could be a problem making that one stand up.

Sober Lark
12th Sep 2012, 19:16
'there is no such thing as bad publicity'. Say again?

Jimmy Hoffa Rocks
12th Sep 2012, 23:36
The whole Ryanair organizational culture is reflected in the situation in Spain

Is it fair competition to have all these pilots who work and live in Spain and dont pay any taxes in Spain ?

Typical of Ryanair to threaten with legal action and court cases as they are doing in Spain. SEPLA will be happy to court with Ryanair. ( Yeah they know they are dealing with, but in Spanish courts ) MOL is constantly mocking EU rules and taking advantage of loopholes to beat down his own employees. Ryanair spends a lot of money lobbying in Brussels.
Ryanair MOL enjoys bullying people, he gets a kick out of it.

I say good for Sepla and the Spanish government for attacking Ryanair.:D

Does O´Leary deny that he pays bonuses to his base Captains for fuel savings ?
Does he deny that these Ryanair base Captains call up Captains if they take too much fuel ? These base Captains have a financial interest in pilots in their base taking less fuel.



MOL are Ryanair pilots scared and intimidated ? By your draconian methods ?

The way Ryanair treats pilots and people makes me sick. Forcing pilots to sign contracts with worse conditions. Its all been said before on other threads.
Why have so many pilots left Ryanair ? Hasn´t the experience level of his Captains dropped significantly ?

Recently COPAC, the controllers, consumer groups and SEPLA have all come out against Ryanair in Spain

Have a look at this Spanish link and Google translate it you dont speak Spanish

Pilotos y controladores acusan a Ryanair de operar en el límite legal (http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/espana/2012/09/12/pilotos-controladores-acusan-ryanair-operar-limite-legal/0003_201209G12P19999.htm#.UFAbrSRXPJ8.twitter)

flying apple
13th Sep 2012, 08:37
@jimmy......
if you would run a company (doesn't have to be an airline) you would also like your employees to be efficient and not throwing away your money
the only difference is that if Ryanair does something it's seen as unethical or not normal

if the basecaptain calls his captains about the fuel they take i think its the basecaptain who puts pressure on the captains and not MOL
I haven't met them all but not every BC is like that.

by the way this topic is about the false claim by the Spanish government that RYR wouldn't be safe and not by the weird methods they use to try to make their company more efficient

Al Murdoch
13th Sep 2012, 11:33
I think if the Spanish authorities are genuinely concerned about safety, they should address the woeful inadequacies of their own ATC system first. It's the worst in Europe.
They won't of course, because the whole thing is politically driven.
I don't like agreeing with MOL (it brings me out in a rash) but on this occasion I think he makes some fair points.
That doesn't detract from RYR's own in-house problems which, really, are a separate issue.

fmgc
13th Sep 2012, 11:36
if you would run a company (doesn't have to be an airline) you would also like your employees to be efficient and not throwing away your money
the only difference is that if Ryanair does something it's seen as unethical or not normal

The fact is that it is relevant that it is an airline and not another business as it affects safety, not just being unethical or immoral.

Furia
13th Sep 2012, 11:57
While our AESA system is surely quite incompetent, cumbersome and needs a full clean up, I would not say it is corrupt.
I have been "sufferning" AESA, previously known as Aviacion Civil for 20 years and belive me I am not fan of them but among all their troubles and incompetence I do not belive corruption is one of them.
Of course like any European organization you may find some rotten apple, but corruption is not a common trend here at least I have not witnessed it here in 20 years with one exception that is now on Court involving a helicopter accident.

Regarding Ryanair, as a pilot working and flying in Spain I am aware of their contant abuse of the "fuel critical" concept and the rest of irregularities that are well known.

We do have other "low cost" airlines operating in Spain, most noticeably Air Berlin for instance and you will rarely find a single complain or incident related to them. And they surely have a large operation here.

This is not a problem of low cost or if the company is Irish, German or Spanish, at least not for us.
Like most of us, we are already working for "international" consortiums. so flag "pride" has not much relevance anylonger on this matters.

However I see with surprise how some people from Ireland and maybe from the UK belive this is a problem generated here because Ryanair is not Spanish and it is taking a really large chunk of the market.

I am a professional pilot for many years and one thing I learned long ago is that while flying there are no flags. Either you do it good or not. Accidents and inccidents do not take into account nationalities.

I wonder how you would feel if for instance a Polish Airline for instance, begins operations in Ireland or the UK, replacing one of your local airlines by collecting public money from the local goverment and lowering prices so your local airlines cannot compete while recording an unprecedent number of inccidents per year. Maybe then the "flag" factor would have relevance for some.

As I said, for me as professional I do not care about the carrier flag but that the operation is performed with the best margin of safety. While probably Ryanair is operating legally most of the time, walking the fine thread between legality and what aeronautical common sense dictates it does not mean they are operating with the same safety levels of other carriers. They exploit the interpretation of the regulations, regulations that were once wrote based in that safety instead economic benefit would be used to interpret them.
A serious mistake from our European Aeronautical legislators.

I mentioned as example another low cost airline that is an example of safe and reliable operation like Air Berlin that besides being safe they treat customers like customers, not like cattle. They get not public money help, they are efficient, safe and respectful.
They are not Spanish but surely welcomed here.
Can you see the difference?

Regarding the actual situation it is clear that only the Irish Civil Aviation have the final saying about Ryanair AOC. And from what I think, they are pretty happy with Ryanair and not concerned at all. So it is Mr O'Leary that seems not concerned at all about any possible action from from Irish Authorities. Pretty interesting, isn't it?

However if the Spanish Goverment really wants to put some order here, and that issue stil remains to be seen, they can simple remove all public money support for Ryanair and make sure that each flight is carefully inspected before take off by an inspection team. Same goes with a Ramp check to all Ryanair aircraft that lands after a "fuel critical" call to verify the fuel content in tanks.
If Ryanair wants to keep on treating their customer as cattle, this is ok with me, but at least do it safe.

EASA must review all regulation considering that in the future, operators would constantly adhere to the very legal minimmus allowed because they are allowed not because they would be safe or not on those particular conditions.
As I said actual regulations stated some minimums to be used by operators if conditions allowed a safe use of those minimums.
Now we do see operators constantly using the minimums regardless this may be safe or sound, but just because they are allowed.

Regulations MUST be redone to prevent this attitude in the future.
IMHO

cockpitvisit
13th Sep 2012, 12:18
I wonder how you would feel if for instance a Polish Airline for instance, begins operations in Ireland or the UK, replacing one of your local airlines by collecting public money from the local goverment and lowering prices so your local airlines cannot compete
This question should be directed at the local government. Why are they giving public money to a foreign airline and not to local ones? And if both foreign and local airlines pocket public money, it is a fair game.

while recording an unprecedent number of inccidents per year.
Not unprecedented in relation to their fleet size.

Maybe a more stringent oversight from Spanish authorities would indeed make sense - and not only towards Ryanair, but also towards Spanish carriers. After all, they killed way more people in the past 10 years than Ryanair did.

racedo
13th Sep 2012, 12:28
Furia

You make some interesting points but giving Spanish regional Govt lent millions to Spanair where there was no possibility of it ever getting repaid or getting any benefit. The nice shiny new airports built that now resemble nice car parks with no passengers.

Claiming Ryanair is the problem because Regional Govts incentivise them to bring in passengers seems like a good use of resources.

Spanair ................no taxes paid and no money earned for that investment
New Airports..................loans still being repaid no passengers or income received
Incentivising Ryanair.............passengers who spend money arrive in Spain, jobs and taxes

As for using Air Berlin as the comparison, they have had their own share of incidents including fatigued crew declaring a Panpan
Incident: Air Berlin A332 at Munich on May 5th 2012, tired crew declared PAN (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=451572e0&opt=0)

Also their passenger numbers are dropping significantly this year being 5%, 6% and 5% down over last 3 months.

racedo
13th Sep 2012, 12:29
This question should be directed at the local government. Why are they giving public money to a foreign airline and not to local ones? And if both foreign and local airlines pocket public money, it is a fair game.


Unfortunately they did give money to Spanair and look what happened.

JW411
13th Sep 2012, 13:56
I find this to be a very interesting thread. I simply cannot believe that the Spanish aviation system is anything but 100% honest and above board.

It rather reminds me of a time when I flew for a company that sub-contracted to a much larger organisation. Almost on a nightly basis, they would be looking for a crew to fly a trip that none of us could legally accomplish and still remain within JAR FTLs.

However, Pedro the Pilot would always step up to the starting block and manage to get the job done.

Although Spain was supposed to be JAR-compliant. I was told that they worked to BEES instead of JARs.

For those of you who are still puzzling about what BEES means, I was told that it was "Brown Envelope Extension System".

Needless to say. I never saw a brown envelope so I could not possibly comment on the veracity of the foregoing but it was always an EC-registered aircraft that accomplished the impossible.

I am sure that this was just a coincidence.

fireflybob
13th Sep 2012, 14:27
As I said, for me as professional I do not care about the carrier flag but that the operation is performed with the best margin of safety. While probably Ryanair is operating legally most of the time, walking the fine thread between legality and what aeronautical common sense dictates it does not mean they are operating with the same safety levels of other carriers. They exploit the interpretation of the regulations, regulations that were once wrote based in that safety instead economic benefit would be used to interpret them.
A serious mistake from our European Aeronautical legislators.

I mentioned as example another low cost airline that is an example of safe and reliable operation like Air Berlin that besides being safe they treat customers like customers, not like cattle. They get not public money help, they are efficient, safe and respectful.
They are not Spanish but surely welcomed here.
Can you see the difference?

Furia, whilst I share your sentiments entirely it all depends what you and I or anyone else defines as "the best margin of safety" - the rules are surely there to do just that?

Equally whether or not you think Ryanair treat passengers as "cattle" is debatable (and what do we mean by that?) - whether or not they do so has little bearing on safety (not saying I agree that's the way it should be though!).

FR are the first ones to breach the law...

reivax, in what respect - where is your proof that they have breached the law?

Whilst I personally don't like many aspects of Ryanair's modus operandi this seems to me to be much more of a political battle which is being fought by Spain. If you decide you don't like somebody then you can find all sorts of ways to make life difficult for them.

In many ways Ryanair have been pioneers and still are. They are therefore, quite naturally, protecting themselves from any deadly arrows. Time will tell who will win.

bluecode
13th Sep 2012, 14:43
Furia,I wonder how you would feel if for instance a Polish Airline for instance, begins operations in Ireland or the UK, replacing one of your local airlines by collecting public money from the local goverment and lowering prices so your local airlines cannot compete while recording an unprecedent number of inccidents per year. Maybe then the "flag" factor would have relevance for some.The British know all about it, Ryanair is an Irish airline and has done just that in Britain. Separate countries remember? So far the British haven't attempted to shut it down for spurious security and safety reasons.

As for the most recent Ryanair 'incidents'. I found this most interesting from AV Herald:

Beginning 19:52Z until 20:48Z a number of aircraft on approach to Madrid aborted their approaches and went around including all non-Spanish operators, except for eight flights of Spanish only operators which continued their flights for landings on Madrid's runways 18. The Aviation Herald is still monitoring these flights, that landed between 19:52Z and 20:10Z.
I've underlined the relevent comment. It appears there was divine interevention for the Spanish operators. Far be for me to suggest that Spanish airlines would continue into weather that a non Spanish operator might consider dangerous.

It's seems to me that when the Spanish get their house in order. They might be better placed to criticise the likes of Ryanair.

Microburst2002
13th Sep 2012, 17:15
JW411

You know Pedro? He is a good guy

Reminds me of tenths of Johns that I have met who also go beyond limits for envelopes, or more often for nothing at all.

As a matter of fact for each spanish pilot "of fortune" out there in the world, there are 200 british ones, and they don't behave like BA pilots. More like Sir Henry Morgan (before he became 'Sir'). At home they behave differently, though.

Spanish administration sucks, that's 100% true. Our country is a mess, full of corrupt politicians, a corrupt king and institutions rotten to the bone, and about to split in 2 or three pieces. The civil aviation is not corrupt because there is little or nothing they can steal. Other institutions in aviation do (ghost airports).

Still I prefer to live in Spain, or even hit my testicles with a hammer than living in the UK. Every time I go there, in the first day I think to myself "What a country, what an efficiency...". But a few days later I learn that this is not true at all and I end up pissed with England.

I'm sure that you guys would think differently about this issue if it was a spanish airline doing in the UK what RYR is doing here. And I am 100% sure you would find the way to ban it.

Oh, how I wish that Assange escapes from the UKA!!!!

Marsellus
13th Sep 2012, 21:48
Ladies & Gentleman.

We can discuss about these incidents forever. Thats why this forum is intended.
But please, whoever operates out of Spain knows that its a JOKE:sad:

The controllers on the job are the worst ever! I have been operating for years out of Spain. Every time the are just identifying and are not willing to help us in need of headings or levels. The give basic IFR separation and who ever flies in this third world country knows that separation is not always for granted.
TA& RA are happening everyday. ''esproceed estandard'' They dont realize that they are making there own airways congested Climbing and descending traffic are almost always in conflict. Instead of doing there jobs as of everywhere else in the world. The just dont coordinate or separate. My point is not to go off topic to much. But ladies and gentleman; flying under spanish controllers is very dangerous. This should be adressed to the media and should be under investigation! We as pilot's are on our own. Helping them almost everyday. In return, we get no service in return. I wonder if they understand this. I guess not.. They speak there own language which is endangering situational awareness for foreign pilots. Following their own ATC procedures which is always a surprise. They are PLAYING GAMES WITH FAIR PAYNG PASSENGERS LIVES. Just because the country is broke and their jobs are on the streets and the government want to privatize the sector. The dont want to give in and trying to abuse the system. Just providing basic services..

This should be addressed to the media!!!!!

flying apple
13th Sep 2012, 23:07
@ jimmy....
no diverting to an alternate is not efficient
as is taking too much extra fuel in case there might be a chance you have to hold which in case of TS can't be predicted cause most TS don't last longer then a few minutes
bare in mind that they are still taking the LEGAL required fuel on board so if it's not safe whole the world (or europe) should change the regulations

I've seen someone mentioning here that ryanair has more diversions than other airlines
is that in amount of events or in percentage of flights? it will make a huge difference for a company as big as ryanair

and also someone mentioned air berlin as a loco
someone told my that they upgraded to a full service carrier
can anyone shed a light on this?

FR threatens airports to move out if they don't get what they want?
how many companies are moving their factory's because they have to pay less in another country
and i'm sure that a lot of airports where ryanair flies to wouldn't be as big as they are now if they didn't had ryanair (if it's cheap enough people will fly to everywhere)

for the record i'm not saying that ryanair is a perfect company but it's definitely not as bad as some people make it look like

MOL might want to save as much money as possible but when it comes to safety ryanair does what they have to do
and in my opinion ryanair is safer than a lot of other airlines just because it's ryanair, if something happens the media jump on it like mad men even if nothing happens like in valencia a few weeks ago (yes, they had 3 emergencies, but they were still safe and legal and nothing happened at all. Normal atco's normally don't let planes that already diverted hold for almost an hour)

Microburst2002
14th Sep 2012, 05:59
Their fuel policy is perfectly legal.

But they have to know, RYR pilots, how it goes:

"I prefer you to divert from time to time than carry extra fuel every flight"

And the consequence for RYR pilos is that they have to make decisions earlier than "conventional" ones. With RYR fuel policy you can't wait to see who is the first to request diversion. You have to be the first. You have to know that if things get difficult in destination, there will be traffic jam in the alternate, so you have to divert early.

If they don't understand this, then that policy is dangerous.

They must understand it, and answer with this:

"OK, as you wish, I will divert every now and then, no problem"

RYR has the right to use that policy. It is their pilots who don't know how to apply it.

whatthefuh
15th Sep 2012, 11:56
I see the usual B/S here regarding Ryanair. All the standard biases and ultimately envy that they are so successful - yes originally in the UK and Spain and Italy and every market they decide to enter. The reason is that they are far more efficient than any other carrier on the planet and millions of pax quite happily fly with them every year, including many pilots from full- service carriers positioning from home to work. Equally, the biases against Spanish ATC and other authorities. Of course they're not wonderful but any experienced operator is well used to their quirks. Is French ATC any better with both French and English used even on tower frequencies? Or Italian or any of the other non-English-speaking countries.

FR's personnel practices are an entirely separate matter that have no bearing on this issue as are their questionable attitudes to their customers. Despite these attitudes 75 million pax flew with them last year so they're clearly doing something right - no matter how distasteful many professional pilots may find their policies.

Returning to the fuel carrying issue. Ryanair flights do not depart without the minimum LEGAL fuel for the flight. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any employer urging/insisting on its pilots operating to the best possible levels of efficiency including not carrying extra fuel when it's not warranted. If that results in the occasional unexpected diversion then so be it. That's the price of the policy. I wonder how many pilots on this forum have any idea of the savings that are possible by not carrying that extra 500 kg for the wife and kids? Multiply that by the number of flights that FR operates per year and the numbers are staggering.

As a 35-year short-haul Captain I have always tried to operate first of all safely and secondly efficiently. When the weather and traffic is not an issue then flight plan fuel is fine for me. When there are issues I carry whatever I want and I'm perfectly well able to justify that to any manager - pilot or bean counter. That's one of the responsibilities of the LHS and if you can't handle the heat you shouldn't be in the kitchen.

If ICAO or EU-OPS mandates more contingency fuel or a more stringent method of calculating Flight Plan Fuel, then FR same as all the others will be obliged to comply. Until then they clearly want to continue to make money in a business that historically has had huge problems doing just that. As a by-product of their success and that of Easyjet there are far more pilots employed in their chosen profession than ever before in Europe. Long may that success continue so that our kids can have the opportunities we've had. The LCCs least of all can afford safety issues but FR has carried hundreds of millions of pax around Europe for 25 years without so much as a scratch on any of them. That can't happen by accident and I take my hat off to their fine professional pilots who clearly do a fine job day in, day out.

LEMG
16th Sep 2012, 18:22
Two Ryanair incidents in 24 hours.
Diversion to LEBL and LEMD due to technical problems.
No comment

racedo
16th Sep 2012, 20:04
Two Ryanair incidents in 24 hours.
Diversion to LEBL and LEMD due to technical problems.
No comment

Your point is what exactly ?

Al Murdoch
16th Sep 2012, 20:26
LEMG - that has no relevance to this. Are you saying other carriers don't suffer technical diversions or problems? Try BA's 737 fleet if you want to see aircraft with technical problems - they're held together with blu tack.

LEMG
16th Sep 2012, 20:47
AvHerald: 6 incidents in 10 days and another one LBA-MJV not reported.

racedo
16th Sep 2012, 21:39
6 incidents in 10 days

2 Pressurisation
2 Engine issues
1 Turbulence
1 complaints from passengers of tick bites

Then again filtering on BA as a sample you only get
Cargo door not shut
Insufficient fuel to divert
Unreliable airspeed indicator

So which is more serious again ?

An airline having an incident and dealing with it is what I would expect to happen, but now people know about it because its published has people claiming there are safety issues.:ugh:

LEMG
16th Sep 2012, 23:13
You better don´t say anything about insufficient fuel to divert...

racedo
17th Sep 2012, 08:17
Squawk


Minimum fuel is either legal or its not, suggesting that legal minimum is insufficient suggests you need to get in contact with regulatory authorities as you clearly know better than ALL the experts.

For the record can you detail the number of crashes over the last 10 years in Europe where the aircraft had NO fuel.

JuanJose16
17th Sep 2012, 09:16
I mentioned as example another low cost airline that is an example of safe and reliable operation like Air Berlin that besides being safe they treat customers like customers, not like cattle. They get not public money help, they are efficient, safe and respectful.
They are not Spanish but surely welcomed here.
Can you see the difference?

The difference that stands out for me, as a run of the mill passenger attempting to fly out of Spain, is the whack in the wallet! Any time I've attempted booking with Air Berlin the costs involved triple that of Ryanair. The Germans version of a Low-Cost carrier seems different to everyone elses :ooh:

Living in Spain, I bear witness to the daily barrage on one particular airline. And it is daily & appears to have consumed the media in a way I never thought possible. From national airwaves & print media, through to newspapers & television for the autonomous regions, even a blind man could see that there is orchestration going on here with the message being hammered home again and again. Initially I thought the media were latching on as it was August & the political sphere was on vacaciones. Alas, it would seem not to be the case. Am I cynical to think it's all an effort to drive passengers into the arms of the fledgling Iberia Express?

For example, there has not been one mention, that I have seen/heard, of the KLM flight that diverted to Valencia along with the two FR aircraft on the night this whole episode began in July.

For the record, I've no afiliation to Ryanair. I fly with them as I feel secure on board & they get me to where I want to go, more often than not on time, at a good price. My tuppence worth.

Carry on, as you were :)

BOAC
17th Sep 2012, 09:19
Yes I'm sorry there IS a problem with management bullying pilots not to take contingency fuel that MAY be necessary - to correct your confusion. The fuel in question is 'Extra fuel', not 'contingency', which is quite different and defined in the regulations, as you will know.

OFSO
17th Sep 2012, 10:55
Two Ryanair incidents in 24 hours.


I've actually lost count. Madrid ? Barcelona ? Tenerife ? Valencia ?

From watching Spanish TV it would appear that no other loco airline has had or is having (or will ever have, in all probibility) any problems whatsoever.

LEMG
17th Sep 2012, 11:05
But what do you think.
Are this incidents true or not?

OFSO
17th Sep 2012, 12:11
Truth absolutely does not exist.

Truch is what the media reports.

For what it's worth (and it's being said elsewhere on PPRuNe) that Ryanair's marketing tactics have annoyed far too many people in Spain for them to have any friends here.

Give us a subsidy !
No
All right, we'll cancel 75% of our flights to Girona.
We give in, we will pay you a subsidy based on your bringing XXX million passengers to Girona this year
All right, we agree to that

One Year Later

You are x million short of the agreed number of passengers, so we are not going to subsidise your landing fees/marketing any more !
All right, we'll cancel 75% of our flights to Girona

Repeat this often enough and the worms will turn.....

captplaystation
17th Sep 2012, 12:42
It was still rather more worthwhile doling out public money to Ryanair than Spanair. . . . doesn't make it any more palatable for the taxpayer, as I am sure there were other "interests" more pressing there than Ryanairs wellbeing.

Catalan Govt played poker with a way more accomplished player, a bit juvenile to act as they do now because they were naive enough to see Ryanair as a partner rather than an opponent. Where € are concerned Ryanair have no partners & no friends. . . . anyone who thinks/thought otherwise hasn't done their homework. All this cr@p in the Press is merely ineffectual payback for that. Don't see any drop in their pax figures in Spain, so hopefully the public can see all this for what it is. . . . someone (other than Ryanair for once) throwing their toys out of the pram.

OFSO
17th Sep 2012, 13:05
Don't see any drop in their pax figures in Spain, so hopefully the public can see all this for what it is

You must be looking at overall statistics, because for Girona there was a large drop last winter (75%) and with the cancelled flights for winter 12/13 will be the same again.

Girona is a pawn which can be discarded at will, with FR shifting flights to Barça. Trouble is once pax's have to go to Barça, instead of Girona where FR had a manopoly, they can look around and see much more comfortable loco's such as easyJet, or pay a smidgen more (if they are lucky or have luggage) and fly BA.

"The public" in this area - mainly British and Germans - can indeed see all this for what it is.

racedo
17th Sep 2012, 15:38
So based on the number of flights they have undertaken in June / July and August there were 7 reported incidents on AV Herald which account for 1 every 22,000 flights.

LEMG
17th Sep 2012, 16:36
Another ryanair thread deleted.
I hope racedo and friends will continue posting in this one and this way it will last forever

Doors to Automatic
17th Sep 2012, 23:14
There is a bizzarre Ryanair advert on Page 7 of today's i newspaper.

It is the standard blue and yellow affair with (one-way from) £18 in a big yellow disc.

Below is "RYANAIR" in big bold yellow letters.

Nothing unusual about that I hear you say.

Above that there are the phrases:

"Trains don't need 2 drivers! So why do planes?"

"If we cut 1 pilot fares will fall by up to £10"

and

"One pilot flights will save you money"

Quite what they are trying to achieve with that advert is totally beyond me!!!? :confused:

fireflybob
17th Sep 2012, 23:19
Quite what they are trying to achieve with that advert is totally beyond me!!!?

Boatloads of free publicity?

Personally I believe MOL is not of sane mind anymore!

DaveReidUK
18th Sep 2012, 06:52
Regarding the single pilot claims, I agree it's just a pathetic attempt to generate publicity well beyond what the original advertisement costs. I find this type of "any publicity is good publicity" absolutely abhorrent, but just like attention seeking forum members, the best policy is simply to ignore it. There is absolutely no substance to their claims and their figures simply do not hold up to even basic scrutiny. Pathetic.

I'm a fan of Ryanair in general, never had a bad experience with them, but that ad is frankly scandalous.

It's in a competely different category from the "no loos on board" or "pay to use them" larks that they have trailed before.

Trying to plant the seed in the minds of the travelling public that single-pilot commercial jet operations are even to be countenanced is disgraceful. If it rebounds and in any way affects the public perception of Ryanair's safety culture, then they will only have themselves to blame.

Tableview
18th Sep 2012, 07:01
I thought that ICAO regulations manadate that aircraft carrying more than just a few passengers commercially must have two pilots - regardless of what MoL says or does.

So it's just another not so cunnning stunt. Not just that that, but surely any sane person would rather pay an extra tenner to have the security of a second pilot, but then I suppose you have to be odd or desperate to fly Ryanair.

fireflybob
18th Sep 2012, 07:29
Whether or not it is a publicity stunt, it's certainly p**s poor leadership.

I have no objections to a CEO being a hard headed business person and/or earning a substantial income but I expect a CEO of a large Company to be some sort of a leader who can inspire his staff to follow him. (Compare MOL with, for example, Richard Branson or Steve Jobs - well, there is frankly no comparison).

The fact that he is the antithesis of a good leader is borne out by his disregard for the welfare of his staff (and his customers come to that) and the fact that many of his flight and cabin crew have left or are planning on doing so.

My prediction is that this social experiment of his will end in tears eventually. I don't know exactly how but I do know that dictators always fall - the question is whether any of his henchman on the Board will abandon ship before it happens.

racedo
18th Sep 2012, 09:11
I thought that ICAO regulations manadate that aircraft carrying more than just a few passengers commercially must have two pilots - regardless of what MoL says or does.


Regulations require it at this point in time.

Talking with a network rail friend at the weekend I was surprised to learn that its Satellites that control the door opening on trains with driver having an override facility only. Drivers do less and less in the cab and he is suggesting in 15 years there is likely to be no driver what so ever.

The public believe you need a pilot but then again they probably felt 40 years ago that you need a FE as well.

It will be within a couple of years when an airline will have a flight between 2 major cities where apart from shutting the doors the human intervention will only begin when reopening them.

Its not whether we want it or not its when it will happen.

captplaystation
18th Sep 2012, 09:20
Maybe. . . . although I doubt it, and anyone with even the faintest ideas of the variables thrown at you by nature/technology wouldn't dream of getting in the back. . . .but then again, a brain is not a prerequisite to ticket purchase (just a tick in the box & a CC number) so. . . :hmm:


In the meantime, that is then, this is now, and "Yer Man" is (yet again) making a tw@t of himself.

He was (?) a good businessman (for the shareholders at least) although he has always been a bit of a 1 trick pony, now, it is difficult to see him as anything other than a largely irrelevant embarassment to his staff, & aviation in general.

Way past his "sell by date".

Al Murdoch
18th Sep 2012, 09:24
Captplaystation - well put.

bluecode
18th Sep 2012, 09:28
Quite what they are trying to achieve with that advert is totally beyond me!!!? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif To generate a reaction. Which is what they'll get. Meanwhile in the real world, it's not going to happen and they know it. The two pilot rule will remain into the forseeable future. Perhaps one day the technology will have sufficiently advanced for airliners to be semi autonomous and require no more than a single 'pilot' to monitor the aircraft in flight.

Until then, probably around the time Ryanair are offering low fares to the moon. It's all hot air.

plain-plane
18th Sep 2012, 09:42
my 2 cents

Ryanair goes to great lengths to be not only legal, but 110% legal... That is not the issue.

Ryanair has very strict procedures in place to ensure compliance with their procedures and EU-ops.

These are 2 points that are very much beyond reproach...


However that does not change the fact that something is rotten in the state of the big Irish machine...:{

There are also quite a few interesting episodes in FR, Which are not publicly known- most of which can be simply be put down to crew "error"... pod scrape, shutting down a good engine, and many other gems.
(please remember that AVherald is not the full truth- and should never be regarded as such)


Here are a few questions that really should be asked:
Has the pressure on the training department to produce new 2700 hrs wonder captains finally become too great?
(further info: Most Direct entry captains dont pass the interview, sim test, or then the sim or line training)


How does the annual leave system in FR affect things,,, people who have not had a vacation with their family in 1 1/2 years affect their crews.


A large portion of their pilots do not live at their base- and subsequently comute. These pilots then have to arrange their family lives in just 2 days a week- do they get propper rest when at home?


The continuing decrease in Terms and Conditions at FR leads to crews not prioritizing the job as much, as the pilot profession requires.- That is when "pilot error" start showing up.

Somehow it has become acceptable at airline management level to look at pilots as machines, - that can be dispatched to any of 40+ bases with a weeks notice- and then not expecting any consequences. START BY LOOKING AT THIS FIRST

Doors to Automatic
18th Sep 2012, 11:19
Even if we ignore the scandalous aspect of the advert the claim that saving one pilot will save £10 per passenger is nonsense.

If the average ryanair sector is 2 hrs and the average pilot flies 450 sectors in a year and the plane is 85% full, then the average pilot will fly

450 sectors x 189 seats x 85% load factor = 72,292 passengers in a year.

The assertion that by losing a pilot, fares will drop by £10 would suggest that each pilot costs the company £722,920 per year. What utter rubbish!!!

aerobat77
18th Sep 2012, 11:23
In the meantime, that is then, this is now, and "Yer Man" is (yet again) making a tw@t of himself.

not really. he surely is not stupid or mad but has a tactic of keeping ryanair in the headlines so everybody knows this company. if the rumours are good or silly seems to be a secondary goal- the main goal is keep it on the headlines.

looking at this forums his tactics reach its goal : everybody talks about this airline. and not few from here will buy a ticket because of attractive prices for next holiday.

fact is that he seems to keep the airline at a benefit level in difficult times, fact is that not a single aircraft ran out of fuel until now, fact is that nobody has proven that he operates illegally to further reduce costs.

cheers

fireflybob
18th Sep 2012, 11:54
looking at this forums his tactics reach its goal : everybody talks about this airline.

With more and more bad talking them!

Doors to Automatic
18th Sep 2012, 13:46
To get anywhere near £10 per seat reduction on a first officer salary the sector would need to be 30-40 hours long!

racedo
18th Sep 2012, 16:37
http://www.ryanair.com/doc/news/2012/open_letter2.pdf

http://www.ryanair.com/doc/news/2012/fomento.pdf

It appears Spanish Govt is getting caught out again making statements which are false and expecting nobody to question them.

Ryanair now offering full access to whatever they require and lets see how Spanish Govt and their various arms respond.

LEMG
18th Sep 2012, 17:14
Everybody knows what O´Leary´s letters mean.
Everything against RYR is FALSE FALSE FALSE.
Take care with the germans.
It seems that they don´t like some kind of behaviour


Pastor suma apoyos en Alemania para una respuesta conjunta a Ryanair | Economa | elmundo.es (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2012/09/18/economia/1347972624.html)

DaveReidUK
18th Sep 2012, 17:17
Ryanair now offering full access to whatever they require and lets see how Spanish Govt and their various arms respond.

I would be very surprised if they make any response at all, given the likelihood that Ryanair will (not unreasonably) put that into the public domain too.

Regardless of what Ryanair may or may not have been guilty of, they seem to be doing a pretty good job of seizing the moral high ground and making the Spanish authorities look very shifty indeed.

racedo
18th Sep 2012, 17:35
Everybody knows what O´Leary´s letters mean.
Everything against RYR is FALSE FALSE FALSE.
Take care with the germans.
It seems that they don´t like some kind of behaviour


Spanish minister needs to look at her own departments behaviour before anybody will take her seriously, not to mention ATC.

As for the Germans listening to what the Spanish say....................right €40 Billion suggests otherwise as let face it Spain is being propped up by German taxpayers.

racedo
18th Sep 2012, 17:37
Regardless of what Ryanair may or may not have been guilty of, they seem to be doing a pretty good job of seizing the moral high ground and making the Spanish authorities look very shifty indeed.

When the Spanish AESA officials under criminal investigation I think that gives an idea of Spanish practices that are evident.

They think making statements to the press makes it a fact even when its a lie.

LEMG
18th Sep 2012, 18:05
Typical RYR response.
We better wait and see what happens.

Tailwheels_r_us
18th Sep 2012, 18:46
Inquiry into Ryanair incident in Spain - The Irish Times - Tue, Sep 18, 2012 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0918/breaking48.html)
Circumstances surrounding an incident involving a Ryanair plane at Madrid airport last weekend are to be jointly investigated by the Irish Aviation Authority and its Spanish counterpart, it was announced this afternoon.

The decision to hold a joint investigation came as a delegation from the Spanish ministry of development was briefed in Dublin on Irish oversight of the safety of Ryanair’s operations in Spain.

The visit of Spanish officials, led by the Spanish secretary general for transport, is the latest move in an ongoing row between Ryanair and the Spanish authorities over alleged safety issues.

On Sunday, a Ryanair plane which was covering a route between Paris Beauvais and Tenerife, landed at Madrid’s Barajas airport due to what the company described as a “small technical problem”. Ryanair apologised to the 159 passengers, who completed their journey after a two hour delay.

It has also emerged the Spanish ministry of development has sent a letter to the European Commissioner for Transport Siim Kallas, detailing its concerns with the airline’s aviation safety in relation to a number of previous incidents.

Ryanair in turn has accused the Spanish government of orchestrating a publicity campaign against it. The company has been increasing its presence in Spain in recent years and is now the largest carrier of passengers in the country.

Ryanair’s Michael O’Leary recently wrote to the Spanish development minister Ana Pastor calling on her to “take action against the leaking of false information” about the airline. He also invited her to send a delegation of officials to visit Ryanair facilities.
Today’s delegation was invited by the Department of Transport to discuss oversight of the airline’s operations in Spain. The Irish authorities also invited their Spanish counterparts to visit the Irish Aviation Authority and to be briefed in detail on safety oversight issues with particular regard to Ryanair.

After the visit, Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar backed Ryanair’s safety record and pointed to the Irish Aviation Authority’s “rigorous” oversight of, and “satisfaction” with Ryanair’s safety standards.

A statement issued on Mr Varadkar’s behalf said Ryanair’s safety standards were “on a par with the safest airlines in Europe”.

The statement went on to say there was “good cooperation between the Irish Aviation Authority and its Spanish counterpart AESA, and it was agreed that the two organisations will develop a memorandum of understanding on increased cooperation. The directors general of civil aviation in the two jurisdictions will also meet regularly”. In response to the arrival of the Spanish delegation today, Ryanair said it welcomed the transport authority’s statement “which affirms that Ryanair’s safety standards are on par with the safest airlines in Europe.”

It said the airline had also invited the Spanish Ministry to send a team of inspectors to Dublin to correct any “misplaced concerns about Ryanair’s compliance with Europe’s highest operating and maintenance standards by providing them with unfettered access to Ryanair operating, maintenance and flight training facilities and unlimited access to Ryanair’s safety, flight management, engineering and maintenance personnel.”

Liffy 1M
18th Sep 2012, 18:58
Just noticed this statement, issued today

Irish Aviation Authority - Statement by the Irish Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and the Spanish Ministry of Development (http://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=93&n=96&a=1214)

Sober Lark
18th Sep 2012, 19:22
ASFKAP, to the Spanish that means 'two' not what you think.

I can't see anything wrong with SAFA inspections and if there is something wrong it will be on the EASA database. An airline that has a flight departure almose every minute would have shown a trail by now.

aerobat77
18th Sep 2012, 20:49
[QUOTE][ Quote:
Everybody knows what O´Leary´s letters mean.
Everything against RYR is FALSE FALSE FALSE.
Take care with the germans.
It seems that they don´t like some kind of behaviour
Spanish minister needs to look at her own departments behaviour before anybody will take her seriously, not to mention ATC.

As for the Germans listening to what the Spanish say....................right €40 Billion suggests otherwise as let face it Spain is being propped up by German taxpayers. /QUOTE]

the "take care with germans" vs massive help from german taxpayers to spain makes me laugh.

on the other hand- we all are europe, and spain is a beatiful country and first choice for holidays... ryanair is sure not the end of the world, flying neither is- the hot spanish beach with a cold beer is much more pleasant !

cheers !

alicopter
19th Sep 2012, 08:10
Not wanting to stir the... but... any news about the court case involving Ryanair at Aeroport Marseille-Provence (France) regarding French Labour Laws being broken???

Sober Lark
19th Sep 2012, 10:43
Contrary to how it appears in some media reports, those guys from Spain didn't come over to Ireland especially because of Ryanair safety concerns there are here for the three day European Regions Airline Association convention in Dublin. In passing may I say amongst other topics, the convention also deals with ensuring fair competition.

racedo
19th Sep 2012, 11:45
In passing may I say amongst other topics, the convention also deals with ensuring fair competition.

So did the Spanish go for a siesta when ATC was being discussed ?

Alatair
19th Sep 2012, 13:02
Let´s face it:

Spain: A Third World Nation

Ryanair: A five Star Airline

O´ Leary: The Perfect Manager

Ryanair´s P2F Pilots: The Best Professionals in the European Sky put in risk by the evil Spanish ATC.


It seems that when you pay peanuts you not only get monkeys, you get loyal monkeys.


Cheers!

Microburst2002
19th Sep 2012, 15:41
All this looks like a campaign against RYR, but I don't know who has launched it nor why.

Spanish administration sucks, it is similar to third world indeed. I am spanish and I can say it, ok?

Anything remotely related to a politician is to be quarantined immediately. Here they are always wrong (politicians and the media). They don't know a sh*t about anything. Apt people can't thrive in Spain. You have to be an asshole to reach the high ranks in politics or in the media or in any sector, actually. I can say this because I am spanish, ok?

At least, It is conforting to think that O'leary must be pissed by all this. I bet he does not consider this publicity as good... But who knows, he is a man full of resources and he might come up with something. In fact it is easy if you are dealing with people of the level of the spanish politicians and media.

Probably after a few months RYR will be reinforced rather than damaged. Unless the origin of the campaign comes from abroad, from, say, the UK. from, say, IAG. RYR is in the way of vueling and Ibx, the airlines that Walsh is using for his megascam with Iberia.

Blind Squirrel
19th Sep 2012, 16:34
...according to the Irish Times and several other news outlets:-


CIRCUMSTANCES surrounding an incident involving a Ryanair plane at Madrid airport on Sunday are to be jointly investigated by the Irish Aviation Authority and its Spanish counterpart.

The decision to hold a joint investigation came as a delegation from the Spanish ministry of development was briefed in Dublin yesterday on Irish oversight of the safety of Ryanair’s operations in Spain.


Investigation into Ryanair Madrid incident - The Irish Times - Wed, Sep 19, 2012 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0919/1224324159416.html)

racedo
19th Sep 2012, 20:08
You tell us, you're our man on the inside....

Nope I haver worked for them unlike an ex employee with a chip.

racedo
19th Sep 2012, 20:11
.according to the Irish Times and several other news outlets:-


Where director of AESA storms on board a plane demanding documents, this is of course the same person under Criminal investigation in Spain for falsifyng documents in relation to Ryanair.

Dunno but don't see head of CAA / IAA or anywhere else doing similar.

smileandwaveboys
20th Sep 2012, 10:18
Alatair,

Let´s face it:

Spain: A Third World Nation

Ryanair: A five Star Airline

O´ Leary: The Perfect Manager

Ryanair´s P2F Pilots: The Best Professionals in the European Sky put in risk by the evil Spanish ATC.


It seems that when you pay peanuts you not only get monkeys, you get loyal monkeys.

I don't think anyone is calling Spain a third world nation, but their ATC is the worst in Europe by some considerable margin and there are a few rogue airlines like Vueling and Nostrum which operate in a very poor manner but are being excluded from the AENA and state diatribes.

Curiously, Ryanair is nearly alone in NOT using P2F cadets in the low-cost sector, while Vueling does and so do easyJet. It surprises me, too, but it's the truth.

As much as RYR management and the IAA need a repeated kicking in the nuts, this whole issue in Spain is entirely political and hypocritical.

I'm Off!
20th Sep 2012, 10:29
Curiously, Ryanair is nearly alone in NOT using P2F cadets in the low-cost sector, while Vueling does and so do easyJet. It surprises me, too, but it's the truth.

How is Ryanair not using P2F cadets? Pay for a CV, pay for a TR, pay for medical, uniform, then get paid per block hour, no allowances, no expenses covered, no insurances. Walks like a duck to me...

Microburst2002
20th Sep 2012, 10:31
I have to agree with that!

I don't like RYR, but... They have a point.

Adhemar
20th Sep 2012, 19:16
@ I'm off :

As much as you would like to see it fit into your imaginary world: Ryanair is not a pay to fly outfit. As you quite correctly put it yourself ...they (cadets) “then GET PAID by the block hour” … speaks for itself no ?

LEMG
21st Sep 2012, 15:29
It seems that we aren´t as bad as of you may think

http:
//www.traveldailynews.com/news/article/51321/vueling-sweeps-four-awards-at

LEMG
21st Sep 2012, 15:32
Vueling sweeps four awards at World Low Cost Airlines Congress (http://www.traveldailynews.com/news/article/51321/vueling-sweeps-four-awards-at)

captplaystation
22nd Sep 2012, 00:47
Lets not confuse apples with oranges. . . do these awards look at any operational issues ? Er, I don't think so.

As I said on the other thread, I have flown with Spanish FO's, who have told me the standards they saw in Vueling. . . and it wasn't pretty.

So, stop propogating the bullsh1t that your politicians feed you (& that you, sad for you, are naive enough to believe) & just accept that these Irish guys, are more than likely, operating day to day at a higher level of safety than Vueling can even dream about.

And, sad to say, that REALLY is the truth of the matter.

Jimmy Hoffa Rocks
23rd Sep 2012, 16:05
captplaystation

You are the one who is confusing apples with oranges as this thread is about Ryanair, not Vueling ?

This thread was getting interesting when debating Spanish political and DGAC-AESA versus Ryanair. Lets get back to the topic Ryanair claim upheld.

as you know, The media and politicians started against Ryanair in Spain when they declared 3 fuel emergencies ths same day, dont confuse the issue, that was the trigger. Vueling Captain´s ( and there are very good high standard Captains ) do not have to write reports if they take more than 300 kgs of fuel in Ryanair. Lets not compare Apples and Oranges.




so lets not discuss Vueling on this thread, if you want to debate Vueling lets do it on another thread. For another thread, if you want.

playstation ( for another thread ) you appear to be misinformed, actually Vueling recently hired a lot of pilots from Spanair and Air Nostrum as well pilots from Iberworld and Air Macau, with ex captains flying as FOs, impossible at Ryanair.
Are the Vueling FO´s you flew with ex-Vueling FO´s ? If so are they ( or you as Capt.) bitter that they are no longer Vueling FO´s ? Actually the current SMS manager won a award recently at the Flightsafety Foundation. The FDM and safety culture is at the top of Spain. Fact, the cadet 200 low hour pilots are on the bottom of the seniority list, of this years hiring. I agree that Vueling
Vueling pilots come from very different backgrounds, I have flown with excellent pilots at Vueling, who would be in Iberia if they were hiring. Many airlines have a few that are of a lower standard.

Al Murdoch
23rd Sep 2012, 16:14
It should be pointed out that Ryanair pilots are most definitely not P2F, by definition anyway. I can't argue that the terms and conditions are brilliant and you have to cough for a type rating but P2F it ain't. Please lets stick to the facts. It is a fact that the Spanish ATC environment is appallingly unprofessional and borderline unsafe.

Jimmy Hoffa Rocks
23rd Sep 2012, 18:44
alpaguer320

Thanks for that, as a ex Ryanair told me otherwise.
maybe with different base captain

fireflybob
23rd Sep 2012, 22:55
Is it not true however that a "league table", to quote the company's CEO, is published of the various Captains and where they stand with respect to other Captains in terms of extra fuel loaded? Is it also true that if one were to find oneself at the "incorrect" end of the legue table in terms of extra fuel loaded, the Captain may be invited in for a "chat" in the office about his/her fuel ordering?

League table - yes, all other questions - no!

The league table is published for each base and it's not a question of whether any extra fuel is loaded but, basically speaking, the fuel burnt against flight time. The top 20% get a standard letter from the BC saying "Well done - keep it up chaps", the bottom 20% get a standard letter saying "Just to let you know you are in the bottom 20% - please be a fine fellow and be aware of procedures to minimise fuel burn." If you get either letter it goes on said Captain's personal file. Nobody ever to my knowledge called in for tea and biccies over their position in the league

As regards loading excess fuel above flight plan all that is required is a brief explanation on the VR as to why - in my 5 years with Ryanair so long as you did this you'd never hear anything about it.

captplaystation
23rd Sep 2012, 23:59
In my 6 years there (2002-2008) there was no "league table" in relation to extra fuel carried. There was a "league table" of fuel burned vs fuel planned on nav log (I.E fuel saved) This was done in a rather simplistic way which did not take account of many important variable factors, & of course the Base Capt was invariably in the Top 3 :rolleyes:

It was Horlocks, they knew it, we knew it, but. . . . Of course there may now be an "extra fuel" table, but there certainly wasn't in 08, merely "some" Base Capts who were particularly diligent at sifting through the voyage reports to find fault, including one who wanted to criticise those that ARRIVED with more than seemed normal (completely ignoring that these guys had probably really aced it with routings/levels/CDA etc etc :ugh: )

iceman50
24th Sep 2012, 02:47
Fireflybob

I think you need to take the rose coloured glasses off. No tea and biccies but a letter on the Personal File! All from a "league table" of fuel burn against time! No account of levels achieved or not achieved, weights etc. You would be better saving money by sacking the "person" who makes the league tables, on all the bases, and save much more than the fuel they are bleating about.

Just hope the Irish Authorities read your post, the league tables would be great fodder for the lawyers in court.

fireflybob
24th Sep 2012, 09:13
I think you need to take the rose coloured glasses off. No tea and biccies but a letter on the Personal File! All from a "league table" of fuel burn against time! No account of levels achieved or not achieved, weights etc. You would be better saving money by sacking the "person" who makes the league tables, on all the bases, and save much more than the fuel they are bleating about.

Just hope the Irish Authorities read your post, the league tables would be great fodder for the lawyers in court.

Iceman50, I can assure you that after 40 years plus in the airline industry I certainly do not wear rose coloured glasses! Please do not teach grandmother how to suck eggs!

Please do not shoot the messenger! I am only telling you how it is! I agree with your comments about the inefficacy of the fuel league which personally I regarded as a joke. My observation was that those at the top were maybe, ahem, somewhat economical with the truth in recording certain figures. I always said I would rather be at the bottom of the table having made sound decisions with respect to fuel etc.

I am sure the IAA are fully aware of the league table.

iceman50
24th Sep 2012, 10:28
Fireflybob

Not trying to teach you to suck eggs, only commenting that you appear to think that a letter on someone's personal file, for being in the bottom 20%, does not equate to "tea and biccies".

Whippersnapper
24th Sep 2012, 10:34
Fireflybob, your experience is at the opposite end of the spectrum to mine.

Whippersnapper
24th Sep 2012, 10:37
No tea and biccies but a letter on the Personal File! All from a "league table" of fuel burn against time! No account of levels achieved or not achieved, weights etc.
Worse than that. While the league tables used to be consumption vs time, they are now just against a historic average, so flt time, routing, holding and so on are also no longer taken into account. It's completely arbitrary.

fireflybob
24th Sep 2012, 11:47
Please do not think for a moment that I am attempting in any way to defend the actions of this Company but, in order to argue the case for change, I think it is important to stick to the facts. I obviously can only, in the main, speak about my own personal experiences.

Not trying to teach you to suck eggs, only commenting that you appear to think that a letter on someone's personal file, for being in the bottom 20%, does not equate to "tea and biccies".

iceman50, I don't understand what point you are making here - please explain!

Fireflybob, your experience is at the opposite end of the spectrum to mine.

Whippersnapper, I would be interested to hear your experiences.

We could argue about fuel league tables for ever but the important issue is whether Commanders feel they are under any pressure in deciding whether or not to carry excess fuel.

I decided to leave the Company after 5 years - luckily I am in a position to take retirement and have an easier way of life. My opinion is that the Company is run under a culture of fear - this was one of the reasons why I decided to leave.

I have many trusted friends and colleagues in Ryanair who are working hard under very challenging circumstances. I feel for them and hope they are able to fight for better days. However, I am not that optimistic. Leopards rarely change their spots.

Al Murdoch
24th Sep 2012, 12:19
If anyone can name a Commander that has been fired or in any punished other than with some daft standard letter, please do tell. To my knowledge, it has never happened. Treat the fuel league for what it is: a joke. We know it, they know it. Ignore it.

iceman50
24th Sep 2012, 14:32
Fireflybob

It is the fact that you and others apparently think that a letter on someone's personal file is of NO consequence! Understand my point now?

fireflybob
24th Sep 2012, 14:57
Iceman50 - That wasn't the message I intended to convey!

Thanks for the clarification .

Imminent Boner
25th Sep 2012, 12:02
Few facts for the discussion:

1. Fuel league is based on actual burn vs anticipated burn. Posted every month by base captain in each base.
2. If you are at the bottom of the list, you will get a default letter telling you that you are on the bottom of the list. If you are at the bottom of the list for 6 months straight, you probably need to re evaluate your approach to saving fuel, most take the league with a pinch of salt whether you are at the top or bottom, others couldn't care less.
3. If you need fuel, take fuel...as much as you may need. If you take excess fuel, tell them why with a valid reason. If you think 1 ton for the kids in CAVOK is valid, you probably need to review the regulations as contingency fuel will cover the kids or "just because" for that matter. If you think not taking extra fuel because you have fuel for a northerly configuration when the airport is using a southerly configuration when the forecast says PROB40 TS, then be prepared to use your skills/knowledge/experience to get you out of the hole you have dug for yourself.
4. Training in Ryanair is taken very seriously. Ask Emirates.
5. Safety record speaks for itself. However, with 2000 flights a day and the media/pprune/other pilots waiting for you to step out of line, something is bound to get flagged sometime or another.
6. Flying with Ryanair as a passenger is a pain in the ass, the make a bundle of money and they are the most hated airline on earth but you have to ask yourself they must be doing something right if they've lasted this long. (and don't say it won't last because people have been waiting for the bubble to burst for over a decade)

Aldente
26th Sep 2012, 07:18
On the night in question regarding the diversions, despite MAD being a known busy TMA and a forecast of thunderstorms in the area , one a/c departed for MAD with just 283 kg above PLOG fuel.

This has less to do with company policy etc etc but more to do with the experience levels in the left hand seat. Some questionable "command" decisions were made that night and this is also inferred in the IAA's "investigation".

plain-plane
26th Sep 2012, 08:06
It is the responsibility of the commander to ensure the flight has adequate fuel for the flight..

Even outside the company it is well known that if based at a large central european base, you better not get on the wrong side of Gargamel and Azreal. They will use every opportunity to get you...

on the subject of landing fuel:
"Gargamels own record when it comes to landing with above 1136 kg of fuel in the tanks, is questionable as well":=
- BTW why is Shrek not doing delivery flights anymore ??? :E