View Full Version : CRM in BA
I went down to my local pub at lunchtime today as is my wont. The landlord lays out all of the Sunday newspapers and I ended up with one of the more less intellectual.
What got my attention was a story about two BA pilots having a punch-up in a pub in Rio; apparently over who did a :mad: landing.
The article went on to tell the world about a BA pilot beating :mad: out of a BA steward in Hong Kong.
The article ended up by stating that BA had suspended two pilots.
Can anyone tell me if BA actually do indeed conduct CRM training and also do they take the trouble to point out to crews that CRM exists after you have got out of the flight deck? Apart from anything else, you still have to get home.
Can you just imagine flying back from Rio with a fellow pilot who beat :mad: out of you in the pub last night?
From my point of interest, it would be interesting to know whether the two pilots suspended were captains or first officers.
Alt Crz Green
9th Sep 2012, 16:54
The type of paper that carries such stories is hardly a paragon of reliability, it probably didn't happen at all. In any case, one alleged incident is hardly an excuse to question the CRM credentials of the entire pilot body of a very large airline.
Tableview
9th Sep 2012, 17:03
The Daily Scum. Say no more.
wannabe024
9th Sep 2012, 17:11
ACZ
I can't wait for my 72nd birthday.
It seems that the jump from 71 to 72 brings with it a more well-rounded, sensible and pragmatic approach to DM articles.
:ok:
KBPsen
9th Sep 2012, 17:25
JW411, you must surely have had chips for lunch.
Hand Solo
9th Sep 2012, 17:51
Sounds like the usual BASSAmentalists have been bleating exaggerated stories to the press again. Not even close to accurate in the stories and I doubt anyone is going to give you any further details.
Artie Fufkin
9th Sep 2012, 19:21
Having witnessed a CRM masterclass over the radio between two sets of Nigels yesterday, nothing would surprise me!
ahhh come on man, enlighten us
racedo
9th Sep 2012, 20:39
Good job its not Ryanair as there would be 100 posts up in 1st hours.......
The flybe guys down in Spain got sacked for their ding dong!:ouch:
Burpbot
10th Sep 2012, 00:08
If it were Ryanair, they would have sold tickets! :O
Airbubba
10th Sep 2012, 00:51
Well, I remember earlier this year a science fict.. sorry, TV drama on the American ABC network called "Pan Am" where the FO punches the Captain in the face because the latter was promoted first, although he had no seniority. And then, they fly the return leg together!
Well, there were certainly occasional crew fisticuffs at the real Pan Am. Years ago at an MEC meeting the JFK LEC, Captain Harold G., decked the MIA LEC, FO Joe G. after a heated discussion where Joe used some traditional Italian-American street jargon to describe Harold's character. Harold was brought up on charges with ALPA national but I believe they were dropped. This was before he was 'fired' for allegedly letting a flight attendant fly a B-747. The accusers were ex-National Airlines Joe G. supporters. I'm sure nothing colorful like that goes on down at the union hall these days. Or does it?
Anyway, a lot of stuff has always occured on the road with an international airline. However, a drunken fistfight nowdays will get the scrutiny of the HIMS committee and the company will be forced to document things to avoid future liability.
I'm aware of another recent incident where the two pilot combatants later conspired to cover things up to avoid the fallout. A couple of decades ago you'd get a talk with the chief pilot if he found out about it at all. In this PC time of social media and instant communication, things can suddenly take a life of their own with even a minor altercation.
Dan Winterland
10th Sep 2012, 04:08
Learn from the master!
Copilot slaps Pilot while Flight Engineer watches - YouTube (http://youtu.be/gmxiZZZ-2_4)
wiggy
10th Sep 2012, 05:33
Sounds like the usual BASSAmentalists have been bleating exaggerated stories to the press again
+1.
In other words some members of one part of BA's "community" may still looking to settle scores over recent events.
Mike
"Staff are encouraged to enjoy themselves and relax in rest times"
Doesn't sound like the sort of thing a BA spokesperson would say either.:uhoh:
Basil
10th Sep 2012, 06:25
BA - dreadful outfit! They took exception to Laker cherrypicking their highly profitable routes (but not the lossmakers) and stood up to him.
Guess who JW411 worked for at the time?
Sorry, JW, but all's fair etc ;)
Never had a punchup in any airline, only one in the RAF and one, IIRC, in the Merch. The temptation arose but it's pretty silly to succumb and damage not just one's skin but, more importantly, one's career.
Georgeablelovehowindia
10th Sep 2012, 07:00
When I worked for BOAC, I remember reading somewhere in staff regs that one of the (very few) surefire ways of getting instant dismissal was: "Brawling."
Another one was: "Drawing a cheque on company funds which was subsequently rejected."
A and C
10th Sep 2012, 07:17
I know a lot of people inside BA and almost all are reasonable people who just want a trouble free day at work and then there is the BASSA hard core, a more vindictive, petty and unethical bunch of people I have yet to meet.
As soon as I see this sort of thing in the press I look for BASSA's fingerprints.
Gordomac
10th Sep 2012, 08:22
Sorry chaps, Retired (now 65) so losing touch. What on earth is BASSA ?
Wannabee 024, I guess I must be "approaching 72" but appear , only, well rounded. Leave JW alone. Laker was a splendid Company ( I did a year on the 1-11). Last, what is it with the DM. I have read the paper since 1965 (mainly because the daily Astrology readings were clearly meant for me, personally. However, these days, it seems to have gone horribly downhill. Dumbing down in the world of journalism as bad as within other Industries I suspect.
wiggy
10th Sep 2012, 08:38
Gordo
What on earth is BASSA ?
Brief explanation here:
British Airlines Stewards and Stewardesses Association - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airlines_Stewards_and_Stewardesses_Association)
vctenderness
10th Sep 2012, 08:48
Why does everyone immediately say Daily Mail when these kind of stories appear?
It was, in fact, the good old currant bun what dished the dirt!
Ancient Observer
10th Sep 2012, 10:44
Sounds like the failed losers, the small minded, bitter and twisted shower in bassa inventing things again.
EEngr
10th Sep 2012, 16:22
I just saw 'The High and the Mighty'. I thought this was SOP in the cockpit.:ouch:
Magplug
10th Sep 2012, 18:56
The Captain punching the First Officer was an unfortunate but understandable incident.
Upon meeting up in the hotel lobby for a drink after the flight the FO made an unfortunate unguarded remark about the Captain's choice of earrings clashing with the fuscia cocktail dress the Captain had chosen.
There was an altercation over this fashion faux-pax which resulted in the FO being on the wrong end of a right-hook...... Unfortunate but understandable.
Airbubba
10th Sep 2012, 19:15
Upon meeting up in the hotel lobby for a drink after the flight the FO made an unfortunate unguarded remark about the Captain's choice of earrings clashing with the fuscia cocktail dress the Captain had chosen.
As you perhaps know, this scenario has been an interview question in recent years:
I was given an interview question a while ago which I thought was an excellent insight into a person’s mindset. The question is: you’re waiting for your captain in the lobby of a hotel on the first night of a three-day pairing when the elevator door opens and you are surprised to see your captain wearing a dress! What do you say?
Of course, it turns out to be a PC trick question:
So what do you say to that captain wearing the dress? What would you say to any women wearing a dress? Nice dress! Now ask yourself honestly: did you assume that the captain was a man?
Don't know if I would say 'Nice dress!' to a man or woman these days myself.
From: Orescan: What makes a good professional pilot? - Wings Magazine (http://www.wingsmagazine.com/content/view/508/38/)
Now, in these ever so enlightened times, we are expected to work with colleagues who sometimes dress in one gender, sometimes another. If you express the opinion that this individual may be somewhat mentally unstable, you get read the riot act and threatened with suspension.
Basil
10th Sep 2012, 23:58
You may jest, but it actually happened in BA many years ago - and it wasn't a female captain :)
In another airline, one of our captains made the grievous error of bumping into some colleagues in a part of town which he did not expect them to frequent whilst dressed in male attire but identically to the young man who was accompanying him. Silly sod then rushed in and came out to the fleet manager who promptly broadcast the story all over the airline.
Doors to Automatic
11th Sep 2012, 09:52
Of course, it turns out to be a PC trick question
Actually it isn't because if the captain were female why would you be "surprised to see the captain wearing a dress" ?? :ok:
Any chance you have missed the "PC trick question"?:)
Burpbot
11th Sep 2012, 10:17
What if the captain is a transgender cross dressing lady? Does it matter as long as they are civilised?
I'm surprised we have been allowed to express an opinion full stop on a sensitive issue! It has come to my notice that pprune deletes and censors at will, particularly on discussions about Ryanair! I was under the impression this was a free and democratic site where anything related to our industry could be discussed?? What are people's thoughts on this?? Be quick though as I suspect within a few hours this post will also have been "censored!"
Keylime
13th Sep 2012, 20:27
CRM in BA......I am the Captain you are the Resource, I will Manage you. Any questions????
Probably 2 ex RAF fast jet pukes, with egos their bodies' can't cash!
Thanks for that fmgc!! Makes me feel soo glad I have retired from aviation and no longer have to deal with people like you!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:
Biography
ex military fastjet including Lightning Jaguar Hunter and Hawk, ex BA
Ah, my nightmare!
The fact that you put that in your profile................
The fact that I put that in my profile means I am proud of my flying achievements fmgc!
Please carry on having nightmares.:D:D:D:D:D
DozyWannabe
13th Sep 2012, 23:51
Obviously the quality of CRM differs depending on the members of the flight crew on any given day, but in the one recent incident where things went south for a BA crew (BA038), the CRM was damn near flawless.
EEngr
14th Sep 2012, 00:43
Don't know if I would say 'Nice dress!' to a man or woman these days myself.
Och! Its no' a dress, its a kilt!
Basil
14th Sep 2012, 02:29
RAF fast jet pukes
Had the pleasure of flying with a few as my FOs on the B747. Some of the best - ex Harriers and Tillers (one a past leader).
They took to the big machine like ducks to water.
Not to say we didn't have some excellent ex truckies as well ;)
iceman50
14th Sep 2012, 02:41
BiographyHaving given up main lining drugs I decided to become a Commercial Aviator.
OccupationTaking the fair paying public ob their "Bucket & Spade" holidays, God Bless Them!
Having put that in YOUR profile I think I know who I would rather fly with. Are you a well balanced chap, chip on both shoulders perhaps?
Landflap
14th Sep 2012, 07:19
"fair paying" ? Time to regrade all the Gcse's !!
wannabe024
14th Sep 2012, 13:45
Gcse's?????
It seems the rot set in earlier than that!
FlexibleResponse
14th Sep 2012, 13:59
A well balanced and fair minded First Officer would be totally unfazed and say, "Good evening Captain, may I buy you a drink?".
The truckies I've flown with have all been top guys.
Never had a problem with fast jet guys ability to pole, it's been the CRM that's been lacking, with one or two exceptions of course. Especially in the early days of joining.
A colleague of mine was in a recurrent sim with an ex fast jet guy. My mate was a capt and had been for 5 years or so at the time. It was fast jet guy's first recurrent after joining us. His closing gambit was "I can't believe I've been out flown by a civilian". Many anecdotes abound of such ilk. Speaks to the point scoring competitive attitude that is not welcome on a civilian flight deck.
No chips. I never applied for the RAF. I would never have prospered in such an environment even though I am sure the flying must be fantastic. I do love quizzing ex RAF fos about their experiences. I find them fascinating.
Yes. I agree. Need to change my profile, seemed appropriate 10 years ago when I wrote it.
MANTHRUST
15th Sep 2012, 21:58
Truckies are OK , just don't leave them with nothing but the Jaffa cakes....
strikemaster82
16th Sep 2012, 22:35
Never had a problem with fast jet guys ability to pole, it's been the CRM that's been lacking
I do so love sweeping generalisations.
fmgc, just curious, do you ask a guy his background when you first meet, so you can make pre-judgements about him?
fmgc, just curious, do you ask a guy his background when you first meet, so you can make pre-judgements about him?
Don't tend to need to!
falconeasydriver
17th Sep 2012, 13:05
Oh dear..denigrating into a civvy vs mil stoush.....30% of the ex RAF/RN FJ guys I've flown with are top draw....the rest need drowning:E
MANTHRUST
17th Sep 2012, 16:06
....and that has really moved the debate to higher level.
Ironic. NOT
Yaw String
17th Sep 2012, 16:10
Mee Owwww!!
I'm in for the evening on this one..Got my popcorn and coke...Don't want to get tipsy and miss anything...
Rooles of fare plaiy!
Gloves off Boys!!...Oops..Girls allowed too!!:}:}:ok::p
White Knight
17th Sep 2012, 19:27
30% of the ex RAF/RN FJ guys I've flown with are top draw....the rest need drowning
30%? That's generous!
Most of them whitter on about upper leg length etc; but they're all short-arses themselves:}
I flew with a few F/Os who were ex RAF, good chaps in the main, a couple couldn't gel with civvy ops though:= The ones who could were splendid operators:ok:
I personally still prefer civvy, self-sponsered peeps:hmm:
Yours sincerely
WK
Airbus geezer...
Craggenmore
17th Sep 2012, 19:45
got DFC's/DFM's/QC's and CAA test pilots in my fam - all ex-BEA/BA - all sound as a pound :):ok: