Dana flies again:Nigerian Govt stupidity,as usual

[dash200]

I thought the idea was that a grounding following a crash is to make room for investigation into its causes with a view to avoiding a repeat? If so, why the "technical, financial and ops audit" crap? Is any airline with sound tech, financial and ops attributes certain to not crash its plane again, especially if the cause(s) of the last one was not identified? More BS for the nation's hordes of the silent oppressed. Bloody shame

[Tableview]

Not stupidity. Corruption is the word.

[Revnetwork]

The stupidity is from those who haven't read the preliminary report of the AIB which currently ascribes no fault to the airline. ::Accident Investigation Bureau Official Website (http://www.aib.gov.ng/)
I suppose Air France should have also been grounded while investigators worked to find that the cause was actually pilot error and a faulty probe.:= same with the BA belly flop at LHR.
If the Nigerian AIB concludes its investigation, and says the airline was negligent in some way, then so be it.
Those with long enough memories will also remember that Bellview also flew after the crash but they couldn't survive financially. Sosoliso also flew. I think only ADC never made it back.
There are those who think that everything in Nigeria has to do with corruption. But I dont think it had anything to do in this particular case.
I'm not arguing there is no corruption in Nigeria by the way :yuk:

[DRPAM007]

Nice one Revnetwork,
It is unjust to ground DANA indefinitely without cause from the AIB preliminary report, but more unjust to provide Nigeria with an industry where profits & politics come before Safety! In Aviation the ultimate justice is safety. Safety is not the absence of accidents but the presence of the indisputable resolve to prevent them; which in my opinion is clearly missing in the way most airlines are allowed to operate in Nigeria, thanks to our "Autonomous regulator" and the lack of sensible labour laws. Hence charlatans like Jimoh Ibrahim and Mr. Johnson holding sway.

[seper]

Totally agree with the government,it would be stupidity to continue to ground them,if you haven't found any deficiencies in the remaining fleet,or design flaw in the MD83.

I don't expect the public to understand,and they are not bound and gagged to fly them.

[stallfail]

Office in ABJ is apparently reopened, ticket sale started, indeed they are ready to fly after government's satisfaction with the air-worthiness of the airline after a rigorous technical, operational and financial audit of the airline !!!!! :D:D:D

Although, after all this rigorous auditing, how comes, that aircrafts are parked since theree month on the MM2 graveyard, partly without engine covers and no pitot covers,....................
certainly not complying with any prolonged long term storage programm, as required by the aircraft maintenance manual !!!
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

But, he... who cares ???, start the engines (if possible) and let's roll !!!

Air Nigeria is down, Aero's and IRS's fleet is suffering from AOG's, Arik is short of three birds due to technical reasons, so guess who is going to fill the lost capacity of seats, demanded by Nigerian's passengers ???................

[Rani]

Im no safety expert...but wouldnt the engine covers and pitot covers requirement be waivered if said aircraft made regular non revenue flights?

[Revnetwork]

Mr. Stallfail,
it might interest you to know (if you had looked closely enough) that the Dana engineers have been working on those aircraft daily since june 3rd. they even did the A checks as required and engines are run as per schedule.
do you know anything I dont know? The aircraft also had the required covers when necessary. They are yellow in colour - I personally saw them.

Being that I know their head of engineering (AM), he confirms that they didnt do any long term preservation works as didnt know how long they would be grounded for. Instead all necessary work was carried out as required by the AMM & MCM.

Are you an aircraft engineer? If you are, and are typed on the MD83, then I will listen to you. Until then, please ask those who know what they are talking about.

[stallfail]

I usually do not respond to statements like this, it's just not worth to get into a discussion with people like you. Apparently you feel offended by my observation, replying with the conventional Nigerian argumentation....:E

FYI, I am a "proper" Aircraft Maintenance Engineer holding a bachelor degree in Technical Economy, have a valid AML issued by an EASA memberstate plus an FAA A&P and holding the MD 80-Series is on my ticket since 08/1992 (20years).

it might interest you to know (if you had looked closely enough) that the Dana engineers have been working on those aircraft daily since june 3rd. they even did the A checks as required and engines are run as per schedule.

Well, I am quiet close to these birds every day, and they did not move an inch, nor did anybody touch them (at least when I was around), concerning maintenance activities.......
Other than on a C-Check ( 3,500 FH or 15 months, whichever comes first), the A-Check is only based on 450 FH. The aircrafts did not fly, therefore no A-Check is required !!! (refer to Boeing Maintenance Planning Data), that is the reason to store an aircraft if it is parked and not flying :ugh:

Being that I know their head of engineering (AM), he confirms that they didnt do any long term preservation works as didnt know how long they would be grounded for. Instead all necessary work was carried out as required by the AMM & MCM.


There is no "instead", the AMM, gives clear instructions what to do if the aircraft is parked more than 7 days (refer to AMM Chapter 10-11,General Parking procedures, the procedures necessary for the protection of a parked airplane are given in this section.)
In accordance of the AMM, aircraft engines are going to be preserved, means you don't run them you put conservation oil into them. All flight controls and landing gear has to be lubricated, all external openings have to be covered by blanks, the aircraft tires have to be turned every week in order not get square and so on and so on........

Further who is doing all the work at the aircrafts ?, since when holds Dana Air their own 145 aproval?, which allows local engineers to pen off all this work, cause nobody recognized "MyTech" to hang around anymore...

Last question, what do you mean with MCM (maybe a handbag???), I only work in accordance with AMM,MPD,MRB,IPC,SRM,WDM and so on:E

[vfenext]

Stallfail, nice post. Too many armchair experts here. There is good reason to be concerned about this airline being allowed to operate again. Anyone who says different is an amateur or on a payroll.

[surely not]

What always amazes me is all the experts on Nigerian aviation who have never set foot in the country, or who last did so 15+ years ago.

Revnetwork is not a mechanic, though I believe he has qualified as one in the past (not clear as we'd had a couple of Star by the time he was telling me!) and he is unlikely to post without having checked first.

Stallfail you are obviously in Nigeria and your points of clarification are more reasonable than the post which prompted it.

As Dana have just gone through the mill after the crash it is probable their procedures will be better than before. If they can recover and be better after the event then that has to be good news.

[dash200]

Okay, I should have read the AIB's report, which found Dana blameless, and thus, refrain from calling names. There's also the backdrop of increasing agreement that you needn't ground an airline because one of its planes crashed.

In context however, our government set itself up for insult via policies which tread on the feelings of its people. Like the Dana crash report which was not posed as final but preliminary, even as there's evidently no plan for a final one.

In 1983 when we lost the WT F28 at Enugu, the Shagari government instituted a panel of inquiry chaired by a respected judge, and its result was made public. Various public players (WT, Aviation Ministry, NAA etc) absorbed severe blows which Shagari could easily have foreseen, but which didn't stop him investigating. D' you know why? It's because Shagari revered his people.

But what do we have today? The Aviation Minister appears on public TV and implies that a look at the attributes of an airline can unravel what caused its plane to crash, as if Nigerians couldn't tell the difference between such look and the findings of an independent body staffed by pros with a legal mandate to get to the bottom of the matter once for all, underscored with a view to achieving closure via a publishing of said findings. It's this attitude that made me call government, stupid.

But I take it all back. Government's not stupid at all. They're only saying their audit of Dana explains the death of Nigerians who thought their living rooms were okay to relax in, never mind the dozens who thought a trip in "one of the nation's top airlines" was fair game. In fact, apart from dash 200, the departed were probably all stupid as well.

(This was written with special ref to the ppruner, Revnetwork)

[capt Johnson]

This is pure corruption guess the CEO's credit card just went flying into the Minister's pockets etc.

Such a shame for Nigeria.

The killing of passengers was more of a joy to the government to reduce the population of Nigeria.

It is a pity that money actually has led the government to stop investigation of the accident and let them fly. where as there is no proof from the Faa or Aib as to what happened.

FAA must take away their CAT 1 status !

[Revnetwork]

Mr. StallFail,

Thanks for answering the basic question on whether you are an engineer. Surely not is correct in his recollection of my qualifications. Since you know better than all the MD80 engineers at Dana, I can put you in touch with their Head of Engineering (AM) and their DFO who can confirm what work has been done when. I also have verbal confirmation of the engine runs done by the captain who did them. I hope you know that MyTechnic has a rep in LOS? Or did you cancel the contract between Dana and MyTechnic? The engineers I saw werent local. Make of that what you will. i saw them and asked what they were doing based on my training and experience. Because you didn't see something doesn't mean it didn't happen. Did you see a team from a German airline on the ramp having a look at the aircraft? Well, I saw them because I was also on the ramp that day.
FYI A checks are also done based on calendar time. If I buy an MD83 and only fly it for 1 hour a day, I can without doing an A check for 450 days? - wow!
MCM - maintenance control manual.

Thanks.

Capt. Johnson - the investigation is still ongoing. Both engines of the crashed aircraft have now been sent to Pratt & Whitney to analyse their condition just before the crash, AIB have been simulating various scenarios on simulators in the USA, and they are also analysing the CVR using sensitive sound equipment to see if they can work out the engine revs, sounds etc at various times in the flight.
I repeat - it is not normal practice world over to ground an airline when the cause of the crash is unknown or hasn't been traced as a fault of the airline. Those calling for it are only doing so based on emotions and not science.

Dash200
I don't want to get into an argument with you as I also know people that died in the crash and understand the emotions in play.
After this crash, the government set up a panel "Technical and Administartive Review of Domestic Airlines" or TARPDA headed by Obakpolor etc which was roundly condemned by specialists in the industry. That report was submitted sometime in early August and had nothing to do with the accident. There was some talk about airports, airline financing and similar there. Responsibility for accident investigation in Nigeria is vested in the AIB and they haven't published their report yet. In fact, going by historical precedent, a report shouldn't be expected till at least second half of 2013 or even 2014.
My question still remains - was it right to ground the airline when the cause hasn't been determined? I just need a yes or no answer with supporting argument. Thanks.

[stallfail]

Mr. Revnetwork........

As said before,I usually do not respond to statements like this, it's just not worth to get into a discussion.
Apparently, you are somehow related or work for Dana and seem to be offended by any observation or oppinion of other people.

I just want to repeat the fact, that a prolonged parked aircraft has to be stored iaw. the AMM !!!!, which by your statement was not the case !!!!

FYI A checks are also done based on calendar time. If I buy an MD83 and only fly it for 1 hour a day, I can without doing an A check for 450 days? - wow!

Concerning Maintenance Planning Data, ... it's quiet complicated and varies on operators requirements and perceptions !!!
I'll try to keep it as simple as possible for you my friend.....

Stating an A-check is based on FC and FH and not on calendar days is based on basic program rules from Boeing
.
Usually you have two different programs.....

1) The blocked/phased program,which fully complies with all MPD task intervals for the average fleet utilization (1.8 FH per cycle and 9 HR per day).
This blocked/phased program concept is similar to the scheduled maintenance programs for all Boeing models that are defined by multiple ’A’ and ’C’ check packages and a heavy maintenance visit (sometimes referred to as a HMV or ’D’ check). This sample maintenance program should be used as a basis for defining content of qualifying maintenance event for maintenance reserve.
The summed hours for each airplane visit gives the basic program utilization parameters, equivalent "A" (90 days) and Base check (30 months) intervals based on the table.
The calendar date is used to create a groundtime window for maintenance purpose, means the due date is an assumption based on the daily average aircraft utilization (which always can change due unforseen reasons) !!!

2) The bridging program
Bridging of maintenance programs allows an operator to account for all scheduled maintenance requirements for transition from one maintenance program to another. Building a bridging maintenance program depends upon certain information such as the airplanes past and future utilization (FH/day and FH/cycle), whether the current program is a blocked/phased program or phased program, and the content of the old and new programs.The airplane is maintained under the new maintenance program once the bridging package is completed
In the real world of commercial aviation, you bridge the MPD task intervalls and the blocked/phased program to the needs of your operation, means CUSTOMIZED MAINTENANCE PROGRAM PACKAGING is based on aircraft utilization and not calendar dates

Your example of flying a commercial airliner jet for 1hour a day is simple nonsense ( guess there a better ways of spending your money), anyway should you consider to use your aircraft as a business jet, well there are complete different maintenance programs, tailored to your needs..........

Think everthing was said concerning this subject, just too tired to respond to the rest of your crap !!!:zzz:

[Revnetwork]

Your lecture is not required as I have nothing to do with the maintenance of those aircraft. Just be assured that I know enough about aircraft maintenance.
The main aim of this discussion was about the grounding and not the maintenance actions or lack to the aircraft. I also do not have any MD83 manuals so will not get into that argument with you. I reported what I was told by people who have looked after similar aircraft all over the world but mostly in the USA.
I was taught when I joined the industry to speak up if I felt anything was out of place.
Since it seems you are in Lagos, I advise that you either speak to the Dana Head of Engineering or better still, speak to the NCAA who will ultimately clear the airline before they can fly ( current clearance is from Ministry). That is a much better course of action than writing anonymously on an Internet forum such things that you are unsure of and doing nothing about it. Or do you work for Dana and know that nothing was done and instead of reporting to the authorities are writing anonymously online?
Whether I work for Dana or not is not important here. The original topic was on the grounding and I still say it was a good thing for the airline to be allowed to fly. If any deficiencies are found, they can be grounded permanently.

Thanks for the " crap" reference at the end of your post. It shows the intellectual level of the speaker.

[dash200]

In your response to my initial post, you said AIB had published its report. You even provided the link. But in your second one, you said the report will take some years. Pls choose one option: has it been published, or will it take some years?

Secondly, I answered your question as to the rightness of grounding an airline just because one of its planes crashed. Read my second post again, I DID.

Thirdly, I never ascribed any audit to Obakpolor's committee; I only indicated the Minister's examination of Dana.

Fourthly (and in the first place), it was the Fed Govt and not Dana, that I called stupid. Obviously, you've still not noticed why. Here's why:

We used to ground airlines when their planes crashed, in order to facilitate investigation. Presumably, they returned to the sky if found blameless. The Fed Govt decide to change the rules, but you can see how badly the new policy, logical as it is, has been handled by them.

Going forward, closure to cataclysm like this can only ever be achieved by an impartial investigation. But instead, the Fed Govt is implying that their examination arguably was closure itself...a Federal Government...ministers...a so called president...and you get offended that I call them names.

(As I wrote this, I heard news that they were looking at Dana again. Well, here we go once more...)

[AS332L Pilot]

Gentlemen, I quite appreciate your comments and positive contributions, kudos to you all! This forum should be more of educative and informative and not criticism and finger pointing, please it would be so nice if you mind your words. Fellow pilots were lost in that tragic incident, what do you think was the cause of the crash? Bring in your ideas and suggestions, educate others let's learn from you in order to avert future occurrence. Leave the government and the airline, whatever agreement they reach pilots will still operate the machine and what becomes your fate if you jam a similar situation like those pilots? Learn what you ought to learn from the incident and improve your skills, that is experience. Experience does not come from criticism. One of the reasons why there are incessant accidents in Nigeria is failure to learn from past mistakes.

On Monday 10th September 2012 at 3:30 p.m. a R22 helicopter crashed in Northeast Houston, Texas killing the male pilot and his female passenger. This was posted on PPRuNe and see how fellow American pilots were suggesting on what possibly caused the crash, very educative and informative. None of them ever blamed the pilot, the aircraft, the company, the government or even the weather. Let's learn from them and be more civilized. This site is suppose to be pilots helping pilots and not pilots criticizing each other. Be friendly, catch fun, crack jokes with each other, give useful information, share your flight experience with others. Aviation is very dynamic and we want to know what's happening at your end. Have you had engine(s) failure or ran out of fuel before? Have you ever experienced very severe turbulence or said your last prayers? Have you ever lost total control and planned a calculated touch down? What had been your worst night mare ever since you started your flying career. If you were the Dana Captain or 1st Officer what would you have done in those final seconds from disaster? Have you been in that disaster mood before and what would you say about it? Let's share your experience. Pilots are highly respected people of integrity, talk less and think more. Discuss cockpit matters in a forum like this, if you want to criticise you can climb up the ladder and become a Director, Flight/journey Manager or better still join politics.

On the issue of whether Dana is suppose to fly or not, recall what happened in 2001 when Concord Air France crashed few minutes after takeoff in France. The incident led to grounding of all Concord aircraft in Air France and British Airways fleet; the two Airlines that operate Concord; during the accident investigation, the Airline was not grounded. In accident investigation, the aircraft model involved have to be grounded till the report is out and not the airline. In August 2007 a Bell 412 helicopter crashed in Lagos, the company wasn't grounded but during investigation no such model would be airborne. So you MUST protest if you see any Dana Boeing MD-83 model in operation while the investigation is still on and don't even risk your life by flying such model or encourage your friend to do so.

Clear skies and safe landings to you all!!! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/icons/mpangel.gif

[Revnetwork]

Dash 200

Sir,

For the avoidance of doubt. The 1st preliminary report from the AIB was what I was refering to. Although the cause of the crash is still unknown, it is unlikely to be due to any design fault in the MD83 which has been flying for quite a number of years and still continues to fly in the hundreds around the world. Only someone not versed in accident investigation would expect a full, complete report to have been published within 3 months of an accident of this nature.
The minister's examination of Dana is Obakpolor's committee!
When you say (we used to ground airlines). Who is the "we" and what was the justification? Refer to my discussion below about Air France and British Airways crashes.
AS332L,
The ONLY time an aircraft type is grounded after a crash is when it is suspected that the crash was due to a design fault with that aircraft type. This is so far not the case with the Dana crash. Were A330's grounded after the crash of AF447? Or B777 after BA38?
Concorde was grounded as it was immediately obvious after the crash and discovery of the spacer on the runway what happened. That also wasn't the 1st time that the tyres had blown and caused damage to the fuel tanks. DC10's were grounded in the past once it was known that there was a design fault.
In Nigeria, it is just a knee-jerk reaction. I will be in the US soon and have some flights booked on AA. They are more likely than not going to be on MD83 aircraft. I will happily fly on that aircraft type any day - or is your problem with Dana and not the MD83?